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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 09:58 AM
Original message
TNR vs Kos continued
While this is a battle in which both sides have many faults, it is interesting to watch. After misfiring in some responses to Kos's rather absurd attack on them, TNR gets it right this time in their criticism of Kos. Regardless of what you think of TNR, I bet most will enjoy reading their assessment of Daily Kos.

Discussed at The Democratic Daily with links here:

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=3412
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. You should read Glenn Greenwald on this issue.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/06/does-new-republic-have-new-stephen_23.html

Also the Booman Tribune on this. He is very sensible as well.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/6/22/213540/017

Fair is fair, and I trust both these guys much more than The New Republic.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Both sides are are making errors
I've read these other posts. There are many issues involved here. Kos is right on some, and I've noted that in my posts at Democratic Daily. Kos is also wrong on other aspects.

It is not a matter of whether you like Kos or TNR more. It is amatter of looking at the specific issues, and both are right and both are wrong in some cases.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Greenwald is also both right and wrong on aspects
Obviously check out Greenwald's post where he does make some points.

There are also points against him, such as here: http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2006/06/glenn_greenwald.html
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Another take on this
There are many interesting posts on this around the blogosphere besides my two posts at The Democratic Daily.

Here's one of the more interesting ones which I just found:

http://punkassblog.com/2006/06/22/armstrong-still-not-a-male-prostitute-technically/#more-378
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Uh oh -- apparently David Brooks has now picked up on this
Edited on Sat Jun-24-06 04:09 PM by beachmom
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/24/16611/9851

Look, I can't stand Kos, but like it or not, he's probably one of the most famous liberal bloggers, and obviously, we all use his site to help out Senator Kerry. Why is Kos so clumsy? It's not the misdeed, dude -- it's the cover up.

'Course, Brooks is out of control!! Comparing Kos to Cheney? Um. Sorry, but nobody DIED due to Kos's lapse in judgment.

Edited to add that I commented:

Brooks is wrong about this 'community' (0 / 0)
I mean -- here I am with a login ID. I've commented and posted a couple of diaries, and I can tell you that I OFTEN disagree with Kos. And I certainly think he made a huge mistake by trying to bury the Jerome Armstrong story. But I haven't exactly gotten my ID taken away for having these opinions. Only outright disruptive trolls have THAT happen to them.

But Kos = Cheney. Um. I don't think so. Exactly how many people have died due to Kos's opinionating . . . that's right. NONE.

I'm still pissed at Brooks from Friday night on the News Hour, and now THIS.

by beachmom on Sat Jun 24, 2006 at 02:05:06 PM PDT

< Reply to This >

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Damn--Now I'll Probably Wind Up Defending Kos
I'll wait for the full column to be available before posting, but from the looks of this it appears I'm stuck siding with Kos in this installment of the war.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yeah -- we're rivals within the liberal blogosphere, but . . .
When shots start being fired by the other side, of course, you've gotta defend your buddies, even if they annoy you outside of the battle . . .
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not only a matter of sides
I could see situation where I would side with a conservative columnist over a liberal blogger on a specific topic. It is possible they could be right at times. However, from what I see of this column, it looks like Brooks is wrong.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Read the column--I generally agree with Brooks
The actual column sounds more reasonable than the impressions I got from the Kosa and Raw Story posts. Brooks actually makes many of the same points we'd make against Kos.

Two key points:

1) Kos attacks the centrists, except Warner hired Armstrong so Warner is ok.

2) Brooks writes: He has managed to spread the gospel of Kossism far and wide, which is not really about ideas and philosophy. "I'm just all about winning," he has said.

That's been a major point I've criticized Kos for.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. It's not in my newspaper and I don't have Timesselect
So I can't read it.

The thing is Ron, I think this attack on Kos from the Right is really bad news for us all. John Kerry has posted on DailyKos, and I had a rec'd diary on there Friday which had a lot of favorable stuff about Kerry. In the past, many of us here have had rec'd diaries on that list. I'm going to invoke a NATO provision here -- an attack on Kos from the Right is an attack on us all. Even if Brooks has a point, the end product is reducing the credibility of the #1 liberal blog, excuse me, the #1 blog in the country. DailyKos made the liberals look good, in the fact that we were the best at something. That we had outdone the Right, when they have outdone us in just about everything for so long.

Being validated by David Brooks is NOT a good thing.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. David Brooks can be right at times
David Brooks is repeating the same obvious criticisms of Kos which we've made in the past. It is not a matter of political ideology to see these faults.

We can't say one thing one day, and then say it isn't so when David Brooks says the same.

I do have extensive quotes from his column here:

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=3416

I disagree that Daily Kos made the liberals look good. He's popular in the blogosphere but he's only going to appeal to a small audience. Kos is a hinderence in spreading liberal views beyond that point. He's also been instrumental in spreading many of the right wing talking points about Kerry.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. These people are losing it!
OMG, talk about extremist! Here's a good assessment by James Wolcott, "Hard Fascism, Soft Heads."

Snip...

Unfortunately, he has followed that up with http://www.tnr.com/blog/culture?pid=22271">an even ill'er thought out post, putting his foot in it up to his hip socket. His attempt to enlarge the frame of his argument and isolate the fascist gene that makes the Kossacks and their ilk so dangerous to democracy and discourse is an embarrassing display of smarmy sophistry the likes of which I haven’t seen since Jonah Goldberg last tried to form a serious, non-Captain Kirk thought. Siegel begins by recounting some of the vile insults and suggestions he received after his first post. It’s no fun being at the receiving end of one of these pile-ons. I’ve been the subject of threads on some of the rightwing sites where no aspect of my well-crafted persona went unvilified; it’s true that there are a lot of gnomes lying in the weeds out there spreading fumes. But there’s quite a difference between mouthy malcontents and fascist fodder, a distinction lost on Siegel, who absurdly writes, “Two other traits of fascism are its hatred of the processes of politics, and the knockabout origins of its adherents. Communism was hatched by elites. Fascism was born along the drifting paths of rootless men, often ex-soldiers who had fought in the First World War and been demobilized. They turned European politics into a madhouse of deracinated ambition.”

Now whatever one might say about Daily Kos, MyDD, Atrios, etc., it is absurd to float the charge that they express or harbor "a hatred of the processes of politics." They help raise money for candidates, track polls, sponsor or promote meet-ups, highlight primary fights that might otherwise go unnoticed. They are completely plugged into the process, their championing of Ned Lamont no different than NRO’s cheerleading for Pat Toomey in his challenger run against Arlen Specter. It’s not as if they’re urging blog readers to disrupt campaign stops as a prelude to a beer-hall putsch. In order to make his case that the blogs are breeding a rootless army of deracinated brutes, he delves into Kos’s childhood in El Salvador, making him sound like an aimless drifter looking for a Charlie Manson cult to command and drawing the bizarre conclusion based on a conversation that took place when Kos was nine years old that Kos “loves government” but “hates politics,” which Siegel finds “chilling.” You’ll have to read the full graf for yourself, and guard your head against Siegel’s flailing arms as he tries to make something out of nothing, seeming to criticize Kos for not retroactively supporting the Salvadoran guerrillas that the New Republic didn’t support at the time. I say “seeming,” because Siegel so cavalierly practices psychobiography on the basis of little biography and no psychology that it’s hard to tell what his point is, beyond making a fingerpainting mess. A mess that he blames on the man he’s trying to portray.

“But, then, Zuniga--let's cut the puerile nicknames of ‘DailyKos,’ ‘Atrios,’ ‘Instapundit’ et al., which are one part fantasy of nom de guerres, one part babytalk, and a third thuggish anonymity--believes so deafeningly and inflexibly that it's hard to tell what he believes at all, especially if you try to make out his conviction over the noisy bleating of his followers.”

While Siegel may enjoy repeating his own name like a mantra (“Lee Siegel Lee Siegel Lee Siegel…”), others are less fetishistic about their identities, and there’s no reason to cast sniffy aspersions on pseudonyms and alter egos. They cause so little harm. For decades the distinguished TRB column in The New Republic was anonymous (the longest tenure in the post held by Richard L Strout of the Christian Science Monitor), and if memory serves one of Siegel’s predecessors on the TV beat (Reed Whittemore?) deployed a pseudonym. If I’m wrong about that, I’ll admit my error and make a correction rather than whip up an additional supply of hot air and flying dust. In any event, it’s absurd to posit the publicity-whory Glenn Reynolds and Eschaton’s debonair Duncan Black (whose name is on his blog—some anonymity!) as murky figures of menace. As someone who occasionally contributes to The New Republic, I find this pissing match between the landed gentry and the mongrel hordes most distressing. There’s no reason why all of us can’t get along and join forces to defeat George Allen’s toupee, or at least acknowledge one another’s strengths/weaknesses/annoying habits without dragging the specter of Weimar across the carpet yet again. Perhaps in my dual role as high-priced call boy and nonprofit blogger, I should intercede and delegate myself as peacemaker between the two camps, performing shuttle diplomacy until reconciliation is achieved. Be sort of a goodwill ambassador. Because when you think of goodwill, you can’t help but think of me.

more...

http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2006/06/hard_fascism_so.php



:rofl:
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. In case anyone's interested . . .
http://donkeyod.blogspot.com/2006/06/respect-must-be-paid-by-david-brooks.html#links

Some of it smacks true, but I guess this is the part that makes me mad:

The Keyboard Kingpin, a k a Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, sits at his computer, fires up his Web site, Daily Kos, and commands his followers, who come across like squadrons of rabid lambs, to unleash their venom on those who stand in the way. And in this way the Kingpin has made himself a mighty force in his own mind, and every knee shall bow.


Um. True there are cult followers there, but I seriously think the masses (myself included) on dKos appreciate Kos's technology and platform, but will often depart ways with him on opinion. That's where David gets it wrong.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I agree with you
David, in his smug way, won't see that as you said Kos has provided the platform - and others are using it. I think Kerry and Kennedy used it very effectively to get information out on Alito. It actually doesn't matter if David thinks everyone on Kos is a mindless follower, Dkos is what Dkos is - and the use of the Dkos platform by Senators and, on a different level, people like us, changes the character of the message on the platform.

David should look at Free Republic - they are pretty much followers and have a a very low percent of articulate discussion. They are closer to her description than Dkos posters.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Brooks is right and wrong in parts
The part where he was most unfair to Kos was in comparing him to Tom DeLay. Kos's faults are rather trivial when compared to DeLay's crimes.

I may have aleady posted this, but Broder is correct on two points:

1) Kos will attack some for being DLC-types or even Bush-lyte, but also support a more conservative Democrat when it suits him.

2) Kos places political strategy over ideas.

Kos definately deserves credit for the "technology." He deserves credit for being one of the earliest, and for having such heavy participation from others (diaries as well as comments) which largely account for his status in the blogosphere.

It is mixed as to wheter they are cultist followers. Obviously many aren't, but I there is also a huge cultist mentality there. Even though it doesn't apply to all, I can't blame outsiders to come away with this impression.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yeah, but there are ways to sway people over there
You just have to learn their language and know what is popular. I definitely comment a little differently over there than I would here. And I do think there was a split on those Iraq amendments in the Senate. Kos completely ignored the Kerry/Feingold amendment, yet I put up my diary and really pushed the K/F part of the Democratic message liberally quoting Kerry and got recommended, even by Chris Bowers and some other well known bloggers there. If you present your arguments well, back them up with links, and don't flagrantly diss the "kingpin", then you can do okay there. And to be honest, the main person I despised over there was Armando, and now he's gone, so I'll probably comment over there more.

One area that will be difficult whether it be at DU or dKos is '08 horse race discussions. But come 2007, it's not just going to be Kerry supporters who will have problems; literally, civil war is going to break out there. If I were Kos, I would be thinking right now on whether any ground rules need to be set up or if he'll leave things as is, and realize it will be bitter for some time. I also think that Kos should SERIOUSLY consider NOT backing a candidate for '08. But I guess his ego might now allow him to do something that noble.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Armando leaving is a big plus
I was only there intermittantly, but he certainly did seem like one of (if not the) biggest problems there.

It certainly will get a lot worse there once '08 becomes the main topic in everyone's minds.

There is hope it might not be as bad in 2008 as 2004. In 2004 there was such a strong pro-Dean mentality there that it was hard for supporters of anyone else to get much in. Most likley in 2008 there will be more division between different candidates. This will at least force them to see that not everybody supports the same candidate and to hopefully accept that differences of opinion on the candidates is to be expected. It won't be like in 2003 where it was almost expected that you support Dean.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Problem's not only ego
"But I guess his ego might now allow him to do something that noble."

Plus it will be a matter of who pays him the extra "consulting fees."
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Hey old time bloggers -- is this about right?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/25/204522/899

From a former Front Page poster Trapper John:

A lot of folks here probably don't really remember this -- since the site has grown nearly exponentially in the past year or so -- but I was one of the dKos front-page contributing editors from January 2004 until December 2004.

snip

It was a fascinating time to write on the front page, due in part to the growth of the site during that time, but mostly because of the 2004 election. And while the latter part of that election -- the Bush-Kerry showdown -- demonstrated how this community to work together toward a common goal, the 2004 primary season served as an example of just how fractured we can be.

Markos supported Howard Dean by early Fall 2003, as did a plurality, if not majority, of Kossacks. But there were vocal Clark and Edwards minority caucuses, a handful of Gephardt and Kucinich supporters, and a surprisingly large number of ABD ("Anyone But Dean," for those who've forgotten) folks. (Not more than one or two Kerry partisans, FWIW.) And man, things got heated early and often. This fraudster/anti-fraudster stuff? Shit, it doesn't have a patch on a good ol' Dean/anti-Dean argument for sheer, untrammeled vitriol. Those were contentious times.


No wonder there is still so much hatred of Kerry in the blogosphere. They probably continue to not understand how he could have won the primary when in their own echo chamber, it just HAD to be Dean, since NOBODY liked Kerry.

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Probably more than one or two
However Kerry supporters were not very welcome and probably most did not stick around much during those months.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
18. When will you guys realize that most voters never heard of him and that
Edited on Sun Jun-25-06 08:48 PM by Mass
many of those who do see him for what he is: another wannabee insider. Why do we spend so much time discussing of that.

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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. But if they hear of the blogosphere, they hear about Kos
Most voters not only never heard of Kos but are not influenced by blogs.

The mainstream media, mostly due to laziness and pack journalism, is increasingly making it sound like Kos is the liberal blogoshere. For example, check out this post from today:

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=3424

It looks at multiple media reports from the last few days on blogs. Most are on Kos. On top of that, there was all the coverage of Yearly Kos last week.

If we want to push the liberal blogosphere, it is important that people see more than just Kos.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I know someone who gets Newsweek, and I had recently told
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 07:02 AM by beachmom
her that I was involved in blogs. She had NO idea what it was, so I explained it a little -- I'm not sure if she completely got what I was doing but she thought it sounded interesting. So now this week she's going to open up her magazine and read about Kos and all of his scandals, and she'll be wondering if I'm caught up in it. DailyKos is the #1 blog (600,000 hits a day) and is COMMONLY cited in the MSM as THE liberal blogosphere, and that was WAY before YearlyKos and this current media storm. That's the reality, Mass. Kos is powerful by the numbers. And I go over there as well as even Sen. Kerry and Kennedy because of that fact.

Edited to add:

Just to clarify, dKos is not the #1 liberal blog, it is the #1 blog period. Bigger than any RW blog. That is just a fact, so I think what we should do is continue to use that site to Sen. Kerry's advantage.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Kerry's advantage?
Except with his vendetta against Kerry, Kos's site is not going to wind up being used to Kerry's advantage.

Another example today of the problems with Kos's influence. The Boston Globe ran a story on Kerry running in 2008. They have Kos commenting:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/06/26/democrats_split_on_a_2d_run_by_kerry/
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yeah. Why not? I'm talking about the platform.
So what if Kos and his pals hate Kerry. The site is bigger than them. Vektor's liveblog is on the rec list right now purely on the power of Kerry supporters. There's enough of us that we can USE that site, to show that there ARE a lot of Kerry supporters. Obviously, other candidates will get more support than Kerry due to the fickleness and faddishness of many of the people there, but I REALLY think we need to continue to use that site for our candidate. After all, John Kerry chose to post on DailyKos, because it's the biggest. I think that when we get a favorable post about him on the Rec List that he can't be anything more than pleased. Don't you agree?
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Compared to 2005, his comment isn't THAT bad
2005 Kos was absolutely NASTY to Kerry. I boycotted the site because of it.

But this is fairly mild:

``They like an aggressive Senator Kerry," said Markos Moulitsas Zuniga , the influential Daily Kos Internet blogger . ``A lot of the hostility is dissipating. The first step is to have people not hate you anymore."

But, he added, ``I don't see that translating into support in 2008. If he's going to be a credible 2008 candidate, he's got a long way to travel to regain trust."


You're dwelling on the 2nd paragraph, whereas I see progress being made with the first. The second paragraph is just horse race babble. The first paragraph is an acknowledgement of how awesome Kerry has been. And, Dr. Ron, the remarks by unnamed Democrats are absolutely horrendous. Kos has kiddy gloves on here, and I say it's because he KNOWS that Kerry supporters or at least people still interested in Kerry make up a significant amount of his community. I say, we continue to engage over there, until another site overtakes it for #1 blog.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Absolutely agree
I said almost the same thing on the other thread - this is a massive improvement.
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