So now Hillary is making election fraud an issue - Just as I predicted

and warned JK's office that he better MOVE PUBLICALLY in a significant way or Hillary will make the issue hers to win the support of the internet.

He didn't even have to do anything more than lay it all out to PREVENT machine fraud for November and 2008, but, noooooo.......too many people in his office are too damned uninformed and detached from the emotional impact.


Fock it - if no one is going to listen to me - just Fock it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=439542&mesg_id=439554

I am just so pissed about it, and I knew it would happen the moment I heard that Pete went to her camp. This was NOT the issue Kerry needed to let get away from him.

I am just SO PISSED, I shouldn't even be posting.

reported when Clinton says it and is not reported when Kerry says it.

Kerry said the same thing at Kennyon, for example.

This said, this does not surprise me that she is jumping on the issue in OH after years of silence. So typically her.

with it, even publically requesting that the election boards of every country train their members to secure every machine before the vote. The issue itself will get press, and Kerry can easily get on Dobbs show to discuss it, even if he only takes these steps as a public service measure - as in public AWARENESS of the issue.

I have been saying he has a PR problem for so long that I forget sometimes.

And his office better THINK about that. I could have saved them millions of dollars in 2003, if they just would have listened to ME about Biden-Lugar and IWR, and they'd be in office right now if they had listened to ME instead of Terry MacAuliffe about exposing machine fraud vulnerabilities and securing the voting machines BEFORE the election.

against him as sour grapes. He may not be the best spokesperson on this issue. His personal experience with this issue draws attention from the issue and onto him. He could possibly however, support a real movement with mention of this issue in a speech and vocal encouragement to those involved in investigations.

That said, do you think the majority of the intelligent net is stupid enough to just jump on the Hilary bandwagon simply because she is again pandering for votes? Her involvement does impress me at all. It could also be used against her especially if she is running in 08. Why, what better time than before she runs to try and fix things.

have to worry about machine fraud because he is putting the MANUFACTURERS AND MACHINE COMPANY OWNERS ON NOTICE.

I remember she was on Tom Joyner show last year promoting the election reform legislation she had sponsored and Tom was asking "Where do we sign up?" (He was definitely pimping her).

I like her, but what's scary is that now that she has a new blogger, and the whore media on her side, she is going to also try to use the AA vote to her advantage also (i.e. Bill as president for 8 years). This is why Kerry needs to continue to push his minority-related issues out there including election reform.

not necessarily sold.

and passed on...

I am confused. Sen. Kerry has been talking about problems with the voting system ever since Nov of 2004. The fact that Sen. Clinton spoke up about it is a good thing. The Democrats have not been heard on this. They have to present a united front in order to get the point across that something is wrong and that the system in place now needs some federal standards. (Which won't happen unless Congress switches over.)

Why is this bad for Sen. Kerry? He got almost no traction on this. I hope Sen. Clinton gets some traction on it, but I think she will need other Dems to come in too. (Ahm, do you remember that Sen. KErry was ridiculed back in Jan of 05 for bringing this issue up at a MLK breakfast in Boston. It's not easy to do this. The media does not want to talk about it. It is getting some traction now as a REPUBLICAN issue. This is so that certain portions of the Voting Rights Act can be negated.)

Tavis Smiley went on Tom Joyner and he, Tom and the radio gang were laughing about it and said he was pandering and reminded Democrats not to do that in the future. It was so bad that I had to turn it off.

Rev Al Sharpton, (a B. Clinton critc) defended Hil and her comments on MLK Day while Tom and the gang were silent all the way.


BTW: You make some valid points. :hi:

gained in credibility since the RFK Jr. article and the introduction of more of these electronic voting machines throughout the country. I have noticed more of a willingness to talk about what may or may not have happened in 2000 and 2004. Our Pittsburgh paper even alluded to this in an editorial over the weekend. See below. While just small steps, this paper in particular- even though it may have a slight tilt to the left is still fairly conservative on it's opinion pages.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06188/703961-192.stm

In the meantime, the United States can only urge that Mexicans stay calm while the legal and structural side of the electoral process operates in what are difficult circumstances. The U.S. process that produced President Bush in 2000 left doubts about its probity in the minds of Americans; it also may have led the eventual victors to take extraordinary measures to assure the re-election of their candidate in 2004, a process still under examination, whether it be by conspiracy theorists or ordinary Americans still scratching their heads over why America attacked Iraq in 2003.

legwork already on it, and they are going to get muscled out.

Sure Hillary should be on this, but she shouldn't be seen as the lead or the only one confronting the issue publically.

And I don't give a rat's ass if anyone in his office worries how it will look - they are DEAD WRONG and don't belong in his office if they have that kind of timidity, anyway.

I think they have a rational split over what will happen. There are reasonable people who believe that the Republicans will apply pressure to the issue of 'election fraud' in order to advance a conservative position that the Democrats are stealing votes.

Ahm, yeah, the Republicans are going to do that. (I started writing about this last year.) That was part of the reason for bringing up immigration this year. There was a push to advance the fear notion that illegal aliens are casting illegal votes for Democrats and the Republicans should institute measures that would tighten up voting regulations, regisitration processes and demand voter ids.

Every issue has two sides. It's not that easy to just say that there has been election fraud. Any issue, any issue at all, can be hijacked by the right. Be very careful in how this is done. Very, very careful indeed. Lou Dobbs is not a liberal Democrat. If he is pushing this issue, then examine carefully why he is doing this. There is a Republican advantage in it somewhere.

regarding the machines. Kerry can get on Dobbs show TODAY, tomorrow and three days a week if Dobbs gets concerned about an issue, he'll feature the lawmaker leading on it. It's up to Kerry to control the direction and keep the focus on 2006 and securing the machines.

And if GOPs do this, then Kerry's office can go FOCK OFF for letting it happen while they frittered. Because they will have focked over Kerry AND the American people.

He just co-signed the bill in the Senate for verifiable paper ballot.

We disagree on whether any one Senator, presidential candidate or not, can lead on this issue. I think it has to come from the DNC and then be taken up as an issue for all Dems. Otherwise, it looks like pandering.

approaching the story. He's saying NO ONE is working to expose the problems with the MACHINES.

It would NOT look like pandering when the issue effects EVERY voter. Most of the country hasn't even heard about it so no way would it be seen as pandering.

They hav a new office that was opening to deal with election fraud issues. The Democratic Senatorial Policy Commission should hold hearings on this, as they have on corruption in spending in Iraq and on the Downing Street Minutes and such.

I think this is an issue for all Democrats. I think they should all respond. This affects all Americans and the abuse is a betrayal of trust in democracy. Kerry has been tackling it, but he needs more support from other Dems.

You can't lead if others won't follow.

on it. They need someone ARTICULATE who can handle serious matters like this and especially if it points to any corruption after closer examination, and Kerry fits that to a tee.

would be leading on this based on how the message is delivered and received. I am sure it isn't the risk involved that is holding them back. Senator Kerry has taken on riskier issues already, the Alito filibuster and his withdraw/draw down dates for Iraq are just two that he took some heat on already.

Kerry only has to be true to himself and his history to take this issue head on.

important, changing the way we vote by striving for fairer elections or that Kerry be the most vocal spokesperson. The message is more important than who is actually delivering it. I am just concerned that if the delivery is not handled exactly right, then the message will be lost. I do not in anyway question Kerry's leadership on issues.

when he focuses on the INJUSTICE.

My concern is that I am CERTAIN that whoever DOES lead on this issue will BECOME the nominee BECAUSE of it. I knew Kerry would be the nominee years ago, and I knew that once Biden-Lugar tripped up Dean that he would falter - and lo and behold, what tripped up Dean the worst in the Iowa debate - Gephardt hitting him with B-L....finally.....I'd only been screaming about it throughout 2003.

and Fritakis!

Bashed big time!

I don't think Hillary saying "watch like a hawk" is all that much personally. I could swear Kerry said something similar to that in his Kenyon speech, and some other Ohio speeches recently. I don't think this is all that much, although it is a signal that Hillary is going to triangulate it.

What we need is to separate the real Ohio issues from the ridiculous. Some things in Ohio just were not fraud, shouldn't have been throw into the JFK article, are muddling the whole thing. We also need to stop with the "Diebolded" conspiracy stuff and make it a simple issue of any random crook could hack these machines. The point is to fix the election system, once and for all.

it is absolutely appropriate and not tinfoilly to demand that voting machines be examined more thoroughly for vulnerabilities to fraud before the election.

That is SMART to demand and the RIGHT THING to demand for ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN, not just a senator.

If that's the approach we took, everybody would get on board with that because that's common sense.

I know we have disagreements on this, but look at it, voting issues are getting NO traction out there. The message has been Diebold conspiracy to steal elections from Democrats. It should have been - look how easy it is to hack into business computers and steal credit cards, it's that easy to hack in and switch votes.

Have you actually gone through some of the Ohio claims and compared them to the reports where the claims came from?

make it their concern to throw people off their track, or if Hillary doesn't make an even bigger stand.

And it doesn't have to be about machine fraud, circa 2004 - any citizen should want to see secure machines before the next vote. And any lawmaker should demand that security for all citizen voters.

There is no down side to spotlighting the CONCERN.

The reason people aren't getting the concern is because it keeps getting wrapped in stolen election 2004 and other Democratic stolen election stuff. Off the top of my head, there were machine problems in TX and AZ, I don't remember the details. Republicans had problems and it looked like we might get some bipartisan movement on the problems with these machines. But no, our people are so bent on it being a conspiracy to steal elections from Democrats that they just ignore that opportunity to get the public's support in making the machines secure. I still don't exactly know how the programming error happened in Iowa, where the votes went to the wrong candidate. That is pure evidence that we need better oversight on the machines, but it doesn't fit stolen Dem election conspiracy so it gets no blogosphere traction.

You think it's fun watching people run around chasing their tails on this for 5 years? It's not. It's also not fun to watch people criticize the machines when the reason we have the machines is because those same people said the reason Florida was stolen was because poor areas didn't get better voting systems. You think regular old Americans don't notice the inconsistency?

It's about presenting a fair and well-researched case. It's about asking for money to begin an investigation, which you are not going to get from this Congress. (At all.)

I don't think Hillary is going to generate any more heat on this than Kerry did. Perhaps if Kerry and Gore could get together and present this it might be a more powerful presentation. (I don't see what Hillary brings to the table that Kerry hasn't already.)

Kerry had Max Cleland speaking out on this also. There simply hasn't been enough interest generated outside of lib-blogs for this issue to catch fire. The first indication of anything brewing outside is the Lou Dobbs thing. If he can help generate fire for this, great. (Standards are standards are standards. As long as it results in a verifiable paper trail then it's all good.)

November - there is just NO DOWN SIDE to saying let's get a closer look at these machines and examine their vulnerabilities to fraud, especially with what is now going on in Mexico.

We both agree that it is better to investigate these machines and err on the side of caution in making sure they do what they were, supposedly, built to do: accurately count the vote. (I think the machines are badly built. I see fraud in the sense that the vendors peddling these devices get paid whether they work or not. I do not see convincing evidence that there is any organized effort to affect the programming. I see the faults as being the results of bad contracting and a company with no quality control and no one pushing them to make systems that actually do what they are supposed to do.)

We probably agree that the Repubs are also trying to codfy into law certain restrictions in who can register to vote and who can't. We probably both see this as racially motivated and that more things that will restrict the African American and Hispanic or Latino vote will come into play as that vote increases.

We have a narrow disagreement. I think that it will take more than one Senator or Democrat to push this issue. I would do cartwheels down the street if Chris Dodd would come out and push for investigating the poor performance of the voting machines. (He is on the Rules Committee which has oversight on voting rules.) I don't see this as a defining issue for any one candidate. (I truly don't think it can be.) I see it as a defining issue for the Dems who must protect their base.

and brings others with him. Kerry can EASILY bring Boxer and Durbin into this issue now that the RFK article and Bill Clinton's remark that the article made a compelling case to HIM.

Add the Dobbs coverage and there is plenty to use as a shield on this - plenty.

the immigration issue. It seems to be a new theme in TV "Journalism", pick and issue and learn all you can about it, making it your issue. I have seen Tweety do this too, with the Libby case and I believe, wiretapping.

I see with Dobbs is that he always takes an issue and over generalizes it until it appears to be some neutral problem, laying blame on both parties. These machines are owned by Republicans. Is Dobbs reporting on potential election fraud as RFK Jr. is or is he talking about the machine errors and not voter disenfranchisement? There is a big difference between saying the machines are prone to error and attacking this from the standpoint of all the problems that surfaced in 2004. Dobbs is raising the awareness level, but I still am nervous about putting stock into his take on this issue.

this. I am usually multitasking around the kitchen during this time. Anyway, I agree, he often lays blame on all politicians- even when the fault lies squarely with the Repubs.

The paper should be the ballot used in the recount. I've read about some of those paper audits and they don't sound so good. Also, if the voter isn't checking to see that the screen matches the paper, the paper trail is worthless to begin with.

There is a way to get people to care about these machines, but, I'll say it again, it gets lost every time the blogosphere makes it about stolen elections like they're doing again in California. There was absolutely nothing to indicate the Busby election was stolen, but that didn't stop them. The machines shouldn't be stored in people's homes, but that's not a partisan issue and the second they made it one, they lost credibility. What we need is some group that will speak to elections outside the stolen election frame and we don't have that.

IMUS: Twenty minutes before the hour -- good if we could get those answers to some of those questions, wouldn't it, by the way? Twenty minutes till the hour here on the IMUS IN THE MORNING program, talking to Senator John Kerry. Did you read Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s article in the current issue of "Rolling Stone"?

KERRY: I did read it, yes.

IMUS: About that 350,000 votes disappeared in Ohio?

KERRY: Well, that's the number that he comes up with. I can't tell you what the number is. It's obvious that Ken Blackwell, who was the secretary of state, went out of his way to make it difficult to people to vote. In fact, that's true in lots of parts of the country. In Georgia recently, they passed an identification and $20 fee, was found to be unconstitutional. In Nevada, Democratic registration forms were found in the waste basket at the registry. I mean, you know, we have a serious problem in America with people's ability to be able to vote. And there are different systems in every state. In some states, you can mail in for three weeks, a month ahead of time. In some states, you're allowed to go register on the last day. In other states, they prevent people from registering. So I think we really need, in the United States of America, if we're going to start talking about democracy and the rest of the world, to make it work a little more effectively. And these electronic machines are invariably raising people's doubts about the accountability of an election. I don't know why we can't just have paper ballots or some kind of paper trail in place, in every voting booth in America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9877442/

AND he and Hillary have a bill together on it.

Isn't Boxer involved with this one also?

This one with Obama, introduced in Nov. '05, covers it all:




This was introduce shortly after the election:

can happen. Nothing will be done on this bill, because no one is taking it up ON CAMERA and making sure the public is AWARE of the vulnerability of these machines. Where there is no outcry from the people, there will be no action for the public good from the lawmakers.

NOW is the time to do it when Bush and the GOPs trust numbers are way down.

Voting Integrity and Verification Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate)

S 330 IS

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 330

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

February 9, 2005

Mr. ENSIGN (for himself, Mr. REID, Mr. BURNS, Mrs. FEINSTEIN, Mr. NELSON of Florida, Mr. CHAFEE, Mr. SUNUNU, Mr. DURBIN, and Mr. DAYTON) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration

A BILL

To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Voting Integrity and Verification Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. PROMOTING ACCURACY, INTEGRITY, AND SECURITY THROUGH PRESERVATION OF A VOTER-VERIFIED PERMANENT PAPER RECORD.

(a) In General- Section 301(a) of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (42 U.S.C. 15481(a)) is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(A)--

(A) by striking clause (i) and inserting the following new clause:

`(i) permit the voter to verify the accuracy of their ballot (in a private and independent manner), by allowing the voter to review an individual paper version of the voter's ballot before the voter's ballot is cast and counted;';

(B) in clause (ii)--

(i) by inserting `discovered on the individual paper version of the voter's ballot' after `to change the ballot or correct any error'; and

(ii) by striking `and' after the semicolon at the end;

(C) by redesignating clause (iii) as clause (iv); and

(D) by inserting after clause (ii) the following new clause:

`(iii)(I) preserve the individual paper version of the voter's ballot, after the voter has certified that the same accurately reflects the voter's intent, as the individual permanent paper record, and

`(II) preserve such individual permanent paper record at the polling place in accordance with the provisions of paragraph (2)(B)(i); and';

(2) in paragraph (1)(B), by striking `subparagraph (A)(iii)' and inserting `subparagraph (A)(iv)'; and

(3) by striking paragraph (2) and inserting the following new paragraph:

`(2) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(A) IN GENERAL- The voting system shall produce an individual permanent paper record for each ballot that is cast which provides for voter verification of such record in accordance with paragraph (1)(A) and which meets the requirements of subparagraph (B).

`(B) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(i) The voting system shall produce an individual permanent paper record for each ballot cast that is either--

`(I) preserved within the polling place in the manner in which all other paper ballots are preserved within such polling place; or

`(II) in the absence of such manner or method, which is consistent with the manner employed by the jurisdiction for preserving paper ballots in general.

`(ii) Each paper record produced under clause (i) shall be suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot voting system.

`(iii) All electronic records produced by any voting system shall be consistent with the individual permanent paper records produced by such voting system. In the event of any inconsistencies or irregularities between any electronic records and the individual permanent paper records, the individual permanent paper records shall be the true and correct record of the votes cast.

`(iv) The individual permanent paper records produced under clause (i) shall be used as the official records for purposes of any recount or audit conducted with respect to any election for Federal office in which the voting system is used.'.

(b) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall take effect as if included in the enactment of the Help America Vote Act of 2002.

********************

I'm on-board with this. It produces a verifiable ballot with paper backup. This is the way to go. It's a good, bipartisan bill.

So, what's wrong with this. (Or it's equivalent in the House H. 704?) Kerry announced his support and it didn't so much as generate a ripple.

There is a possibility that this is in the list of 'big things' to talk about that the good Senator seems to be working off of. He talked about Iraq and sponsored the Amendment to withdraw within no more than a year. He then gave a big policy speech on the environment. His other issues, identified last year as 'felt needs' are: Middle East -- including Iraq, the inportance of America's relationship with the rest of the world, health care availability, the environment and election fraud. I wrote this last year after I saw the good Senator speak at Faneuil Hall in April. He hasn't amended this list, it still seems to be the working agenda of what he wants to talk about and work to reform. See this old thread and the posts about the speech. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=21964&mesg_id=21988

If you ask me, it's on the agenda.

from any lawmaker and definitely not in any way that BRINGS THE AWARENESS TO MORE AMERICAN PEOPLE to get them involved.

GOPs do it on bullshit matters and work it every day. There is an election in less than FOUR MONTHS, and not one Dem is speaking PUBLICALLY and NATIONALLY about the URGENCY of examining the machines and securing them before the vote.