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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:24 AM
Original message
What crap!
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 12:24 AM by ProSense
Sen. John Kerry’s 2004 presidential hopes were sunk when he buckled under to “authoritarian” conservatives hellbent on smearing his military record as part of a larger “proto-facist” movement, says a former top White House aide whose testimony helped sink Richard Nixon during the Watergate scandal.

John Dean, a Republican who served as Nixon’s top counsel, said Kerry slipped up during the 2004 campaign against President Bush by not suing the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth when they published a book calling into question the Bay State senator’s Vietnam service.

“What most surprised me is that Kerry never did anything with the Swift boat attacks,” Dean said. “He waited so long, it was shocking. I thought he should have brought a defamation action against them and he would have succeeded.”

Snip...

Dean was in Boston this week promoting his new book, “Conservatives Without Conscience,” a harsh indictment of the current GOP power structure that paints Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and other top party leaders as dangerous “authoritarians” who have ignored the ideology’s founding tenets.

“About 23 percent of the American people are authoritarian conservatives,” Dean said. “It’s proto-fascist behavior. While we’re not a fascist nation, we’re too close (for) comfort. I’m trying to warn people.”

more...

http://news.bostonherald.com/localPolitics/view.bg?articleid=149506


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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is so stupid - maybe it should be remembered that he was a Nixon man.
He seperated with him on Watergate when they got caught. I suspect that he was not a fan of young Mr Kerry in 1971. He also likely knew how badly Nixon went after him and that he was clean. The problem was not Kerry, but the Nixonian RW people like O'Neil.

The problem wasn't the book, but the enormous number of bogus charges - that the media kept in play even when they were proven wrong. Maybe you need to send Dean a note with a link to your (or BLM's) loooonnnggg Research thread of what Kerry did do.

Dean is a lawyer, I'm not - but I know that Kerry could not have filed a suit and won it before the election. Even if the courts worked that quickly, how many days off the campaign trail would it have been worth? Not to mention time he would be tied up preparing for it. The SBVT had infinite time to waste John Kerry didn't. (The other thing I wonder about is that the authors had sworn statements from all these SBVT - who were mostly insignificant people lying the way the leaders wanted them to. This would seem to protect the authors, who could claim they acted in good faith (as if they would know what that means). This might mean Kerry would have to sue all these little guys.) Had Kerry filed a suit, people would have screamed at him that he was putting personal vanity before winning the election.

The comparison to Goldwater is beyond strange as he filed a suit AFTER the election. Clearly what Kerry's friends are doing in the Patriot Group is better than a suit - they are exposing the people behind all this.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It is strange. Also, here is what Dean had to say
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 01:01 AM by ProSense
about such lawsuits in Dec. 05:

Scalia revealed that he felt the landmark1964 ruling in New York Times v. Sullivan was wrong. That decision held that when a plaintiff in a defamation lawsuit is a public figure, such as a government official, the plaintiff can only prevail if he or she can show the statement was made with "actual malice" - a problematic phrase.

The requirement of "actual malice" means that the person publishing the defamatory statement must have done so with one of two states of mind: Either he knew the statement was false, or he published it with reckless disregard to whether it was true or false.

Simple negligence, then, is not enough under New York Times v. Sullivan: "Reckless disregard" requires that there had to have been a compelling reason to prompt taking some care before making the statement.

In practice, the "actual malice" standard means that the plaintiff usually loses. It's virtually impossible to prove with clear and convincing evidence (as is also required when the standard applies) that the publisher of the false statement either knew it was false, or published it despite good reason to more fully investigate the matter, thus recklessly.

Snip...

The constitutional law of defamation is a disaster. It is nearly incomprehensible. It is unfair. It is unjust. And it is long overdue for a correction. Sadly, I could randomly select dozens upon dozens of cases to make the same point the Lohrenz case makes.

Scalia is correct: Everybody should be able to protect their reputations. But not until New York Times v. Sullivan -- which literally changed the law of the land overnight -- is reversed, will that ideal be a reality.

Hopefully, Justice Scalia was giving us a hint of coming changes at the Court, when defamation cases are heard. At a minimum, the Court ought to make clear that only true public figures are deemed public figures for defamation law - for current law only encourages the victimization of private persons. Better yet, the Court should chose a more realistic standard than "actual malice" - one under which even public figure plaintiffs who are lied about, can get justice.


http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20051202.html
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. interesting
good thing to bring up if any of us goes to any book signing or some other event and get to meet him.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. That's an interesting perspective
that makes the Kerry comment even more bogus. With the sworn statements of the SBVT, Kerry would have had to prove that the authors knew that these guys were lying in sworn statements. It would be nearly impossible to get 6 people on a civil jury to all agree that without a doubt the authors knew that any specific fact was false.

Even if Kerry sued then instantly when the book came out in August, it would not have been resolved less than 3 months later. Meanwhile it would have taken over the campaign.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. YUP
this type of stuff is just so disingenuous, especially coming from him.

and you just know that if Kerry did sue as these people now say he should have done and would have resulted in what you say of taking over the campaign, they would have complained that Kerry allowed himself to be dragged around by them.

in reality it was those who got scared at the swift boat liars who were dragged around it. just look at how nobody is saying Bush's refusing to sue Dan Rather or anyone who brought up his non service in the Guard is proof that he didn't serve.

yet they do that with Kerry.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. maybe because Dean is "a conservative without a conscience"
He did help bring down Nixon, but he did it to save someone more important to him - himself. The roots of the SBVT go back to his dear leader. I actually wonder now if he spoke out in 2004 against the SBVT. He likely knew Nixon had Kerry checked out in every way possible and quite possibly he knew that Nixon created O'Neil and his phony group.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Exactly!
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 08:48 AM by ProSense
In that respect, Dean is no different from Buchanan, Kristol and the guy who just apologized (see GD thread): they are just disappointed and pissed at Bush. Their anger is definitely a form of self-presevation.

But their criticisms may serve a purpose beside spotlighting Bush's failures:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1706797&mesg_id=1708232
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. The other thing
underlying such stupid rhetoric is the presumption that Kerry doesn't understand the legal system!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Though from your post #2, Dean himself
when not speaking of someone he likely doesn't like pointed out that sueing doesn't work. Although Dean was a young white house counsel in an administration that broke the law, even the Boston Globe conceded that Kerry was an excellent proscecutor. He also knew the law well enough on BCCI. Not to mention, if it were clearly the right thing to do Kerry had plenty of lawyers on his side.

This is just a more insidious version of "Kerry didn't fight back" with no condemnation of the people who paid others to lie. Dean didn't criticize the Nixon administration before Watergate gained traction. So, he in a very limited way is complicit with the SBVT - at minimum, he knew the environment that created O'Neil. (Not to mention all the RW people who have acted as though they were above the law - the people Dean now writes about for money.) Of course, because he says the Bush is worse than Nixon and should be impeached, he is lionized on DU-P.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. of course, he is selling a book
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. A Republican writing in a Republican newspaper.
What I always found extraordinary on DU is this tendency to make Republicans as demi-gods when they criticize Bush. That does not mean they have changed a bit. Another perfect case here. Dean is not a progressive. He just does not like Bush.
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