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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:38 AM
Original message
Isn't it time for them to admit
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 10:41 AM by ProSense
that Kerry has said all along that the vote was to continue inspection:

But this is interesting too:

Clinton said other Senate Democrats who had voted to give Bush the authority to go to war -- including his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York -- who may be weighing a 2008 presidential run, had hoped that the threat of war would force former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to comply with U.N. inspections.

"They felt, frankly, let down that the U.N. inspectors were not permitted to finish, and they were worried that we were devoting attention away from Afghanistan and the hunt for bin Laden and al Qaeda, which was a huge, immediate threat to our security in the aftermath of 9/11, as we saw this foiled British plot continues to be
," Clinton said.


If this is true, then why the hell don't the Democrats who voted for the Iraq War - including Hillary Clinton - come out and say exactly what Bill Clinton said?

And why don't they go one step further and say George Bush lied to them - and to the world - about Iraq?

Is that such a hard thing to say 15 months after the publication of the Downing Street Memos?

http://www.democrats.com/bill-clinton-smacks-lieberman


If this is true? Check my signature for Kerry's DSM letter. Kerry stated this in clear terms before the vote and has articulated the point far better and more often than anyone! People need to pay attention and focus on who truly should be held accountable for this illegal war.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq , and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq . It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

Page: S10174



Q: Did you vote for presidential authority to go to war because you thought the president should be given the benefit of the doubt?

I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. Issues of war and peace go outside of partisan politics. When the president of the United States says this is the way I'm going to do something, you ought to have the right to believe that president. And if there's anything that makes me more motivated about this, it is the fact that he went back on his word with respect to an issue that involves the lives of our young Americans. Americans know that this president did not go to war as a last resort.

Q: Did he intend from the beginning to go to war, no matter what the U.N. or allies said?

But he changed that, you see. This is where the word of the president is so important. Jim Baker wrote publicly how important it was to go to the U.N. Brent Scowcroft wrote publicly. The word around Washington was, the president's father is very concerned, and they don't want to go in this direction. So the president then comes forward and says, you're right. We're going to do these other things.

Q: Was Bush merely paying lip service to trying the diplomatic route?

It appears more and more evident that that may have been the truth, which is why the president broke his word. That's why I say he misled Americans.

Q: What may have been the truth?

That they intended to go no matter what, regardless of what happened. If that is true, he even more misled the nation. If that is true.

Q: Are you less optimistic about bringing democracy to Iraq and the entire the Middle East than President Bush says he is?

Well, (the goal is) moving toward stability. If you don't have stability, you can't have democracy....When you get into those kinds of categories (such as realist), you wind up not doing justice to what's at stake here. We want an Iraq that is not a failed state, one that is moving toward democracy and toward diversity, and has the ability to stand on its own two feet. And how you get there is a more complicated thing than this administration allowed for.

I believe you need to change the current equation significantly. You cannot have a situation where the United States of America has as big a footprint on this process as it does, and hope to have legitimacy and contain the forces that have been unleashed. We need more people involved in this effort, in a broader international effort. And the president has made it very difficult to achieve that.

Now, I believe it will take a new president, a change of administration in Washington to restore credibility to America, and to open the doors to new possibilities for how we get our troops out of Iraq. That's what I believe. And there are many, many other international observers and others who know what's going on who agree with that. All you have to do is go talk to some of my Senate colleagues who have traveled to Iraq and to Europe and elsewhere, and they will confirm to you the need for this new international initiative.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-22-kerry-qna_x.htm




I posted Clinton's comments on Lieberman here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2780470&mesg_id=2780470
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Spin me baby!
Kerry has been the strongest voice, post '04, against the Bush Admin and the lies they told to go to war. Clinton is trying to get people to forget that and to equate what Hillary has said all along with what Kerry has been saying.

Ahm, Hillary, given the chance, refused to renounce her vote at the Take Back America conference. Kerry not only renounced the vote, he called the whole war, soup to nuts, a mistake. There is a big difference between the two.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Too bad Clinton with his big megaphone wasn't saying this in 2003 and 2004
Kerry made this point daily - but the media repeated the "voted for the war" conflating the IWR vote and the entry into the war five months later. They ignored that in those 5 months, Saddam destroyed missiles at the inspectors' demand, the inspectors were given access to the Presidential palaces and they had found nothing. Kerry in January spoke out saying the inspectors should be given more time. There was less reason to fear Saddam in March 2003 than in October 2002.

Both Clintons were silent in the run up to the war. Even as no weapons were found (in 2003)- the Clintons, the two biggest voices of the party at that time - were silent. As the primaries started, and the left distorted the vote - there was still silence. More damning, after Kerry became the obvious nominee - they stayed silent on this. They could have amplified Kerry's explanation, but they didn't.

Why now? To give Hillary the support that he didn't truly give Kerry - because Clinton is a very self centered man. But:

Kerry spoke up when it was clear Bush would attack, Hillary didn't.

As to telling the truth on the intelligence,
where was Hillary's signature on Kerry's letter demanding the investigation and mentioning the DSM - Oh, she didn't demand it then?

As to getting out of Iraq, who have been 2 people not pushing the issue -
Bill and Hillary, neither of whom have supported any real plan - just vague words Hillary has not been a key player on any of the Democratic amendments. (Other than behind the scenes) My guess is that she hoped the cost would be enough that the US would be out before the primary season.

Even on Alito, it was clear she preferred just a pretty speech on why he was wrong then a quick confirmation. Even there she was more concerned about choice than the balance of powers. She has not spoken out (nor has Bill) on most of the abuses of power.

In reality this will likely not work, Clinton is saying nothing Kerry didn't say AS HE CAST his vote and since then. Of the people who consider the IWR a litmus test, I seriously don't see them bowing to reason. We argue with a subset of them daily. A portion of them now say they will accept those who say they were wrong (although some require you to say you were wrong AND have initials JRE). If many of these people still hold Kerry - who spoke out before the war started, has said he was wrong, initiated the effort to demand the truth, and who has been a strong voice to get out, I seriously doubt they will instantly see the light and follow Hillary.

As was seen when she criticized Rumsfeld, it got a lot of attention, but many noted UP FRONT that this was the first time she said he should be fired - about 3 years behind others. (Even Lieberman said he should resign in 2003.)

Well, enough incoherent rant - I'm just annoyed by the early reaction to Clinton's comments on DU. I simply don't understand why people constantly forgive him no matter what his weaknesses. :grr:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Remember "everybody makes mistakes"
This was the damned dumbest thing Bill Clinton has ever done. I said at the time that I thought Bill Clinton had just lost the election for us, and in retrospect, I think that was probably right. He set the tone for how far the Party would go after Bush and turns out it wasn't anywhere near far enough.

"I thought the White House did the right thing in just saying 'we probably shouldn't have said that,' " Clinton told CNN's Larry King in a phone interview Tuesday evening.

"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president," Clinton said. "I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to make without messing up once in awhile. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree with you ProSense
That right there is exactly what drives me nuts about the Clintons. They sacrificed the 2004 election in order for her to be able to jump on either a pro-war or anti-war bandwagon in 2008. Kerry has been right on every single thing, right down the line. They, and the Party, are flat stupid not to recognize it. Not only does it put us in a great position to win in November, it permanently smashes the stupid northeastern weak on defense liberal label.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I am near the point of agreeing that at least Bill was willing
to sacrifice the 2004 election or that he had simply considered it not winnable. Your Clinton quote is Clinton slickness in action. The single most selfish thing he did was to put his boring memoir out in summer 2004 - what an oaf! That he did it and minimized the nominees contributions to his accomplishments is stunning.

The contrast in character and behavior between Kerry and Clinton, makes me sorry I ever supported Clinton. (Though I can say he was very low on my list in 1992.)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I think he helped to a point
I don't think he intentionally sabatoged 2004 or anything, but he wouldn't go past any point that could conceivably be used against Hillary, in his mind. That's playing political power over the country and is not worthy of the Presidency, but then who has been since Carter. Clinton was certainly better than the alternative and did serve to begin transforming some social programs (and they needed it to a certain extent) and I think it helped the party in the long run. But allowing some of these right wing ideologies to percolate unchallenged, that's been a travesty and he still doesn't see how wrong this stuff is for the country and the world. I do think Kerry gets that, even if he wasn't always quite as clear on the garbage part of deregulation and globalism type policies.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I don't think he sabatoged it either
just that at least in the first half of the year, he was pretty anemic in his support, doing only what was absolutely expected. I don't even think it had much to do with Kerry - just that Clinton is for Clinton. I'm not even sure Clinton "gets" Kerry - in the sense that I seriously doubt Clinton would act, against his own interests because some principle demanded it.

As to 1992, I meant in the primaries. I supported Clinton in the general election - and though Clinton was far from my favorite - I didn't even think to whine about being ABB.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. This is posted
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