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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 11:57 PM
Original message
Unresolved anger
This is a follow up to my "I need to get this shit out of my head" thread ---> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=276x10743

I think anger is my main problem now. Maybe it always has been. Imagine being incredibly angry and not being able to do anything about it. We've probably all been there. Now, imagine that being your predominant state of mind for years on end. As mopinko inferred in the other thread, not much can be done about the past...just ditch it :). But it's going to take me a little time, I think. First, I have to honor this anger. I've been in denial about it for too long, and I think it is at the root of my psychotic symptoms. When I miss doses I start to get angry. Denying it is delusional.

I'm worn out. 701 miles today. I'll try to add more tomorrow. Thanks again for listening.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Enduring anything as inescapable is torturous
Edited on Sat Aug-28-10 07:40 AM by HereSince1628
finding release from the inescapable requires seeking protective cover down thought paths that other folks may never need to travel. Living that way for a long time has consequences.

Intellectually, I get that self-awareness is an important part of achieving self-control (I can say that, but practicing it is something else). Out in the world, people around us care almost exclusively about our self-control and the contextually appropriate behaviors that flow from it.

Seems to me that you are gaining self-awareness.









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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, I guess 'we've probably all been there,' but nowhere NEAR
Edited on Sat Aug-28-10 10:19 AM by elleng
the dimensions you did and continue to suffer. Every day I think of more instances from my 'husb,' for example, but way minor compared with yours. Trying to address it thru legal process, but daughters 'don't want to talk about it,' so can't really hope to clear it from THEIR lives, now.



more :hug:


edit: Check this out, Tobin: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=245x122625
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. I had an interesting exchange with my mom today about something I'm angry about.
Edited on Mon Aug-30-10 01:59 AM by EFerrari
I posted here about the time my brother came out to my building and ripped out the roses I had growing there in 10 inches of dirt because it upset me so much. (It wasn't an act of vandalism or of hatred. He was trying to fix the building up to sell one of the condos.)

My brother has something going -- ADD or something -- that makes it difficult for him to attend to the concerns of others. So, it's no use, really, to bring it up to him. He'll just feel bad for hurting me.

Anyway, today for some reason, it came up in a conversation I had with my mom. And she said, "You need to talk to him about it because you're still mad." And I said, "Not really. It won't help me and it will just hurt him." And then she said, "You need to talk to a chair about it, something."

And then I said, "No. It's okay for me to be mad about this. I have no problem knowing that I'm mad about it and I don't need to do anything with that anger. I don't need to fix it. Nothing is broken."

And, you know, it's true. I am angry about that and I don't need to fix it. It's like some feature of topography. It's just there, like the Statue of Liberty. If you don't want to knock up against it, go around. Don't take the shuttle that goes there, lol.

There was some notion when I was growing up that we had to air out our anger (or other kinds of discomfort) and "resolve it" in some way in order to be healthy. And yeah, I've read and studied the theory starting with Freud's first thoughts and all of that was valuable for me.

But, I don't any more think that is true in every instance. Some things don't get better when you air them out. They just get activated. It really is enough, I've found, for me to get it. That's enough.

fwiw
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thoughts on emotions such as anger...and its resolution
For someone like me, who suffers from emotional dysfunction emotions are very important. "Getting it right' with emotions isn't easy and getting it wrong not only haunts my thoughts and leaves me feeling bad about myself it wreaks havoc on every aspect of my relationship to the world. That sounds simple enough, but for decades I really never thought that with respect to my emotions that I was getting it wrong. And while I am aware of the danger they present and know I should be careful, I often still 'get it wrong.'

It seems to me that to recognize an emotion is to be self-aware of nonverbal responses to internal and external stimuli. In this sense a recognizable emotion, like anger, is a signal that I am responding to something. The signal isn't inherently good or bad. But because people care about how I appear in repsonse to them and how I act, what I do with that signal makes a hell of a lot the difference. When you 'don't take the shuttle there' you are making a conscious decision about how to respond to the emotional signal you get when you think of your wrecked roses. I think it's great that you can do that.

Intellectually it's easy enough to invision an ideal mental system wherein we encounter stimuli, recognize and interpret our emotional signals and then make motivational choices about how we behave. But signals get ignored, misinterpreted, become intolerable generate impulsive responses, and end up generating affect and behaviors that others, and even ourselves see as inappropriate. And as the field of psychology has demonstrated this system quickly becomes no simple matter.

We can get the stimuli wrong either because we just don't get them, or because we can't empathize or mentalize with the people we encounter. We can misread the emotion, substituting a generic 'being pissed' with frustration, disappointment, anger, etc, and the result is we think of ourselves as being always pissed-off because we have no other words to describe how we feel. Our tolerances to stimuli may be shallow or deep; immediate impulsive responses can give little time for thoughtful 'appropriate' choices about behavior (responding to our emotional state with alcohol which I have done because it 'makes me feel good' can make a person even more impulsive) and how the emotional state decays can be different, for some it goes away slowly, and repeated exposure to stimuli result not only in 'getting activated' but in getting 'worked up.' Indeed, some of us can live like a mouse-trap ready to go off when triggered. Finally some of us have different behavioral outlets we have 'got to' behaviors that are appropriate rather than inappropriate. Just like being generically pissed off, we can have generic behavioral outlets, like saying 'fuck-off,' 'leave me alone' and then reinforcing our demands with physical displays--arm-waving, throwing or breaking things, retreating to a mental or physical sanctuary.

Consequently, 'resolving anger' has no easy solution. And it doesn't always go well. In 1993 I confronted my father about my anger with his mental and physical abuse of me, my siblings and my mother. I did it because he was in MY living room trying to defend my sister's abuse of her children (the state of Illinois wanting to put the kids in foster care). It was cler to me that she her abuse was an inheritance and he endorsed it. It was a powerful event with little yelling but a lot of sincere anger. The results were bad. I walked out of my own house and spent the night sitting in my woodlot. My parents and I never spoke again (indeed my father was dead for years before I learned of it). My mother defended my father and my aunts, uncles and grandparents shuned me. My wife got angry at me for not respecting my father, whom she liked, and as we divorced several years later one of her comlaints was that I had embarrassed her in front of my parents! All of that was pretty easy for them because by then I was living a borderline's emotionally dysfunctional existance and was generally difficult to be around.

Yes, I confronted the source of my anger, but it didn't make the anger didn't go away. I can still go off thinking about it, because on that crisis I'm still like a set mousetrap. I think the reason for not getting past the anger is because my anger really was about lashing out to avenge myself of what had been a childhood full of danger. It may have been one of the more rational things I've ever done. The emotional signal was indelible, my response was authentic and true to my feelings, but the people in my world didn't accept it and it gets chalked up to my mental disorder as an example of the familial estrangements that are typical of borderlines.

In retrospect, much of life seems to have gone that way. I believe that people around us generally don't care why we feel or why we do the things we do. They just want us to look and behave in ways that don't challenge their own circumstance.

So now, I do "try not to go there," which means not only thinking about him and my childhood, but avoiding things that remind me of him and my childhood, like anguished discussions about things that go wrong at work, and avoiding television such as the Kardasians, Jersy Housewives, and Hoarders. If I don't get 'worked up' I reduce the risks associated with 'acting it out.'













In the 1990's as I struggled in a marriage and in my job it dawned on me that I spent a lot of time 'pissed off.'



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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. If you read my other thread referenced above...
Edited on Mon Aug-30-10 10:04 AM by Tobin S.
I'm not going to bring this up with my folks. There's enough pain there for everyone involved. I don't need revenge and I don't need to argue with them. I think it would just make things worse.

As far as resolving anger goes, I need to find a way to defuse it. Writing here about my experiences has already helped me a great deal. The reason why I need to "go there" is because it's already there and it affects my state of being. It's not something that I can ignore like a mosquito bite. It's like getting your leg crushed and trying to pretend you're not hurt.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. When you say defuse,
do you mean as in ripping out the fuse on a stick of dynamite or diffuse as when an odor dissipates and loses its smelly strength?

I can imagine how both might be used to talk about anger.


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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You made me go to dictionary.com :)
to make sure I'd used the right word. All of the following definitions apply in regards to how I used the word:

de·fuse   /diˈfyuz/ Show Spelled Show IPA verb, -fused, -fus·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to remove the fuze from (a bomb, mine, etc.).
2. to make less dangerous, tense, or embarrassing: to defuse a potentially ugly situation.
–verb (used without object)
3. to grow less dangerous; weaken.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That;'s fine, in DBT therapy they also talk about diffusing emotions
the exercises for that deal with imaging your emotions floating away from you...meaning no offense to anyone doing DBT skills training, imaging my emotions written on a handkerchief drfiting away on fantasy winds is one of the sorts of things that makes DBT seem a bit too weird for me.

If we are thinking about the fuse & bomb thing, is your anger the fuse or is anger the bomb? That question is way of getting at whether you have any sense of becoming 'upset' and working up to getting 'angry.'


Because if you do, you can use the recognition of becoming upset (but not yet angry) as a cue to do one of a variety of behavioral management techniques to forestall getting angry.

The therapist that dropped me last month told me that 'everyone' goes through the upset stage but it usually isn't noticed. Frankly, my anger goes off with the same speed that accompanies my getting frightened. So, I don't know if she's correct or not. And, personally if me, or someone else, isn't aware of the upset, then in the short run the unrecognized precusor might as well not be there. Of course, over the long run, with effort to be self-aware that recognition might get better and become useful.

My new psychiatrist has put me on an anxiolytic that is reported to ease aggression, but it's too soon to say if it really works.
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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The anger is the bomb
Fortunately, it doesn't blow up on other people. Unfortunately, it's not so kind to me.

I suppose there is a period where I do get worked up, but it happens very quickly. One minute I can be fine and in another couple of minutes I can be filled with self loathing and/or anger. It doesn't happen all the time; it doesn't fluctuate constantly. But it's always there ready to ignite, even though it's dormant much of the time.

If my family were to see my posts in this forum, they would be very surprised. I haven't done or said anything to them that would lead them to believe that I've been thinking this way. I'm going to keep it that way, too, if I can help it. I think I can.

I have noticed that lately I've been able to catch myself before I start feeling really bad. I also don't feel as tense now. The thread where I aired my dirty laundry really helped me, I think. I needed to tell someone about that stuff even if it's just on an anonymous message board. That stuff had been boiling inside of me for a long time and I was unable to admit to myself that I get angry about it. If an outsider could have seen my thoughts it would have been very apparent. But, you know, denial isn't a river in Egypt. :)

I think the reason for the denial is that I've always considered myself to be a kind, gentle person. I couldn't be angry, could I? No, not me. It's so at odds with how I actually behave in real life that I guess I thought that I was above anger or immune to it. I've been denying something that is really in me, no matter how I behave externally.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-10 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I learned how to predict my own panic attacks
to the point that they are very, very rare and very short, ie, not something I worry about any more. Ditto for seeing an oncoming destabilization in my ex. In the beginning, I also thought both of these events "came out of nowhere" but they really didn't.

You're right that if you miss the run up, it might as well not be there but on the other hand, if you catch any of the indicators, you can have a chance to make things less unpleasant for yourself.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-10 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I've pondered whether I don't notice precursors because I'm _always_ upset
in one way or another. I've wondered whether being constantly wound up and irritable is analogous to having the loud static on an AM radio drowning out the stations. But then again, I spend a lot of time pondering and I'm not sure if it's worth a damn.





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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-01-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Understood.
You have to do what works for you. Finally what worked for me, in situations where I can't air stuff out with someone and when the feelings are urgent or overwhelming, is to recognize them. Even out loud in private by myself. I try to recognize every part like I'm ticking off all the elements that make a piano. It's like walking myself "there" and back in a careful way on purpose, doing it on my terms and with my own permission.

The stuff I'm talking about will never go away and it can never be "resolved" with the original people. But at least this way, I take care of my feelings as they arise and they don't have to sneak up on me or erupt in a damaging way. That's my theory, any way. :hug:

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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-08-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Honoring anger can simply add fuel to a fire. It's like rehearsing it...
For me, and this is only MY experience, check your own for your best course of action, is that anger is a result of hurt and vulnerability, abused. Anger at self for not being able to protect one's self, and for the simple outrage of being injured. I find healing, and healing of anger is so important at this time, in admitting that I am hurt, about what, that I was unable or simply vulnerable in the first place...

I hope you find peace..
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-10 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. I so understand the need to deal with anger issues.
My father passed his anger down to me and I struggle with it all the time. He doesn't struggle with it at all, he spews it onto everyone who crosses his path at some point or another. He can be a really great guy and people like him until they say something he doesn't agree with and he puts them in their place. He alienates everyone around him by this need to feel superior by talking to people like they are idiots. He treats service people in stores and restaurants abusively when they do or say the slightest thing he doesn't like or don't do what they think he should the way he thinks it should be done.

I idolized him and always sought his approval, and subsequently the approval of any man I met, for the longest time. All of us kids grew up in total fear of him and the next time he was going to blow his top totally over the smallest of things.

It's taken so long to realize that I was following in his steps and get a handle on it. I still have days I struggle with it, but getting better all the time.

Knowing we struggle with this problem is a good thing. It's the only way things will ever get better.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Sorry, hw.
:hug:
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