SPOILER THREAD! SPOILER THREAD!

OMG!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like, did ANYONE see THAT coming??????????????????

Damn book made me cry.
Snape didn't surprise me at all. Bastard.

Just SHOCKED.

I really, really did not see that coming at all.

Dumbledore sure made a mistake there.

And did anyone think the HBP would be Snape?

And Dumbledore didn't make a mistake. He knew what he was doing, and had his reasons for doing it. Snape will be One Of The Good Guys, in the end.

Think about it: Dumbledore was dying anyway, and he probably knew of Snape's vow. Had he died w/o being killed by Malfoy or Snape, Snape would've died, thanks to the vow, and suddenly there's no one close to Voldemort who's working against him yet has his trust. And note that Snape DIDN'T kill Harry. Told him "NEVER use an Unforgivable Curse" (and why would he do that, if he really WAS on the Dark Side?). Howled "DO NOT CALL ME A COWARD", because Harry doesn't understand what he did, or why he did it.

I'm willing to bet money that Snape will play a hand in Voldemort's downfall. $100 US. Any takers?

play a role in Voldy's downfall, but I'm skeptical that it will be an intentional role.

I think Dumbledore totally goofed it... he was begging at the end.

Also, it was Snape's bright idea to come up with the vow. He could have easily weaseled out of it, but he seemed in it for the long haul.

This makes me increasingly curious about what Dumbledore was thinking when he trusted him... WHY????

Snape didn't kill Harry because Voldemort wants to kill him personally... that's been clear from the second chapter.

If Dumbledore had died of whatever was in the potion he drank in the cave, rather than at the hands of Snape or Malfoy, Snape would've been killed by Voldemort, and so would Malfoy (who, though a nasty little bastard, doesn't seem entirely beyond redemption)...and surely Dumbledore would give his own life to save that of a boy who's been coerced into doing something he doesn't REALLY seem to want to do? Not only that, remember that Dumbledore said he knew Malfoy had been trying (and miserably failing) to kill him. How did he know? At a guess, because he was told. Which raises the question, by whom? There's only one other person who knew.

Besides which, Snape makes a perfect agent for determining the location of the scattered bits of ol' Tommy's soul, doesn't he? Again, he's the most obvious source for the information Dumbledore was acting on in his mysterious absences. And his cover can't be doubted now. Plus, his mental shielding works both ways...the good guys don't know if they can trust him, and can't get in his head to find out...but the bad guys think they CAN trust him, and can't rape his mind to find out they're wrong.

Besides, you have to admit, it makes for a hell of an obvious plot twist in book seven.

There seem to be an awful lot of people over at HP lexicon

http://wc6.worldcrossing.com/webx?1@@.1ddf35b0

trying to argue your side, but there were many times when Snape could have weaseled out of it and didn't.

Snape didn't come up with the vow idea.

My bad.

HP Lexicon has some great takes on it too!

:cry: But still...

on the LIHOP/MIHOP theories.

After a slective reread, however, I think JK did leave it open, especially the fight between DD and Snape that Hagrid overheard.

There are three possible interpretations of the end: Dumbledore's begging Snape not to do it, Dumbledore's begging Snape TO do it, or Dumbledore's REALLY REALLY surprised and hurt at Snape. There is, I think, evidence for all three interpretations.

I think readers have been set up by Harry's intense dislike and distrust, and by incomplete information, to believe that Snape is working for the other side. I think Snape is Dumbledore's man, 100%.

The overheard scrap, Snape telling Dumbledore that he didn't want to do it anymore? I think he didn't want to have to "prove" himself to the Death Eaters. I think Dumbledore knew about the oath he took, and was begging him to go through with it.

Was the oath real, or did Snape have a way of getting out of it?

Is Dumbledore really dead?

I think Harry will work with Snape before the end. I don't know about Malfoy; can he be saved, the way Snape was, or is he a lost cause?

This turn of events blew me away.

I dunno, I was swearing up and down as I went into the book that it was him. Never thought it would be Snape.

Keeerist.....

So do you think Harry's going to go back for a year 7?

Won't the profession of Auror die out when the death eaters are finished?

I don't see year seven being at HW, though H, H, and R might use it as a base of operations for convenience (lots of available assistance, healing, technical reference) that would not be available anywhere else in Britain. The key, I think, is that LV is too arrogant to get his ass out of Britain and get on with his nasty old self in say, Papua New Guinea, or Colorado Springs (where in the latter I doubt highly he would be noticed, his behavior and prejudices being quite in line with the Focus on the Family attitudes....)

McGonnegal and others will probably try to keep them at school, but they will all be of age (though Hermione's parents may disagree) and while perhaps not as technically adept as they need to be, what are their choices? Sit back and wait for the Death Eaters to come get them, or die trying? I know where I'd be, and it wouldn't be on the couch or in the Library. (As an aside, we had several hours to kill last night between the time we finished dinner and the release party started, so we went and saw Batman Begins --- and it's amazing how much common morality and ethics the two universes share. Metaphorically, Harry is ready to put on his Graphite mask and woven kevlar armor and kick bad guy butt, not out of vengence or arrogance, but because it is the right action to take to preserve and retain a just and equitable social system.)

Besides, with 4 artifacts to find, how much time can Harry really spend doing homework for Professor Flitwick and studying for his NEWTS? I further have a feeling that even if he drops out, goes and finishes off Voldemort and manages to survive the task (about which I am not certain, especially not considering the title of the first chapter of the Philosopher's Stone... The Boy Who Lived), his future need for a job and means of supporting himself would be pretty much assured. The Ministry is likely to hire him, no questions, and if not the Ministry, then Gringott's... or even the Weasley Twins. NEWTS aren't going to determine Harry's life choices; nor probably Ron and Hermione's. And there's always his legacy from Sirius and his parents.

Since Harry is so Utilitarian (Jeremy Bentham - the greatest good for the greatest number), he's not likely to fall for the theory that one stays in school because it's what is done. One of the underlying themes of the whole series is that Kantian ethics and categorical imperatives get you in trouble and often cause as much harm as pure evil. Good intentions that follow blind rules in the HP-verse don't often get rewarded; good intentions that break blind rules often are (though not always.)

I think the big question there is: Does Ginny come with, whether Harry wants her there or not? She has more steel in her spine than I gave her credit for earlier (and I am relationship agnostic when it comes to the kids; the only happy match I ever hoped for was Lupin and Tonks and I thought it was not possible.) I don't know about others, but I know if there was someone out to use someone I cared about against me, I'd make damn well sure to keep that person in my sights at all times. It would seem to me that letting Ginny go about her life - and it's known that Harry is fond of her - would put her in as much, if not more risk of being used as a pawn than if she was part of the Scooby Crew.

Question 2: No, I don't think that Aurors will go away once the Death Eaters are finished. As Umbridge proved quite effectively, evil and selfish people who will use power for their own ends are not exclusively attracted to the dark arts and Voldemort. There will always be those willing to use the dark arts for their own gain, and so Aurors will always be necessary to enlighten such miscreants to the error of their ways.

And while I know that the Prime Minister is supposed to be John Major, I read it and saw Tony Blair, and could not help feeling wistful that Tony Blair might have wanted to have a portrait speak to him and a guy step out of the fire and explain things a bit last week.... (I am, for the most part, a fan of Tony Blair; I fear that the past couple of years have not been Tony at all, but a pod person or possibly Blair under an Imperius Curse.... Hey, maybe Rove.... )

And was it just me, or did anyone else want to see Buckbeak/Witherwings tear Snape to stir-fry shreds there at the last?

<quote>And was it just me, or did anyone else want to see Buckbeak/Witherwings tear Snape to stir-fry shreds there at the last? </quote>

Hell yes. Did think it would have been cool; but his escape just plays into the above-mentioned probable plot twist.

I couldn't get that, it sounded like Buckbeak had a few good seconds on Snape. I mean we saw what he did to Draco before without trying.

Snapes GOTTA be torn up pretty good.

to date, and one of the things that people are saying about this one is that there's not a lot of the usual filler.... it moves very, very swiftly. Very few scenes in class, and does the whole end of the semester get cancelled? What about Ginny's OWLs?

It would be a real shocker if nobody went back to school in book 7. I think Harry and Hermione have what it takes to get hired on by the ministry, but does Ron? I can't see Hermione not going back to finish her schooling, I really can't. Also, there are so many peripheral characters at the school that we would miss.... Neville, Loony, Ginny, McGonagall, Hagrid... if it was just the trio, that would be some pretty tough going, especially with Ron and Hermione STILL BICKERING CONSTANTLY. (The canaries were a nice touch, IMHO)

Also, quidditch. No school, no quidditch.

It would mess up WAY too much of the flow... it would be a whole different book (which it already promises to be).

I thought Buckbeak was going to MESS SNAPE UP, and who's to say that he didn't do some ugly damage?

Fleur really came through.... we'll see what happens to bill....and tonks, for that matter.

I totally saw Blair in the first chapter, and it's hard not to connect the first chapter with the recent subway attacks and the war on terra, even though the chapter was written LONG before the attacks.

She called him Wretched.

I laughed my head off when I read the second sentence of the book. I had hoped she'd have another reference later, but didn't see one.

That chapter was originally meant for chapter 1 on HP&SS belive it or not. JK said that her editor cut cause it took away from the story. The chapter was revised and added to book six.

... who tried to throw Fudge out of the window would have been Maggie! I do agree that it's easier to imagine her doing that.

I imagined Tony Blair in that chapter, and from what I know about him, he's the most likely PM in the past 2 decades to be sympathetic to all this magical nuttiness. (There was a great photo a while back, of him in jeans, barefoot, playing the guitar to himself to relax ...) There must have been many times in the past few years when he wished that someone would finally give him a straight answer. A wizard appearing in a flash of green flames might even be preferable to, well, someone in a distant land lying to him about invisible weapons of mass destruction.

The Imperius curse would explain a lot, wouldn't it.

of operations, as you say. Harry's going to need help with hunting down those horcruxes--Hermione and some clever Ravenclaws can run the library as a research center (get rid of Pince by giving her and Filch a lust potion, so they can have 12-hour snogfests, and stay the hell out of everyone's way). Sprout has to get the better botany students working on growing healing herbs, and herbs for potions. There should be quidditch, but quick games, that involve more students playing than just the teams. Everyone who can ride a broom better than say, Hermione, should practice their flying as often as possible. All instructors have to lighten up on the theory, and teach applied skills. Hagrid has to forget the icky critters he likes, and concentrate on, oh, thestral riding lessons. Of course, Harry should teach DADA, along with Moody. (I used to be a volunteer organizer; does it show?)

Snape getting DADA????

That was the point where I was like, "All bets are *OFF*...."

Yes WOW; she sure does a good cliffhanger. I think above is a good point; what was he begging for? He was probably going to get killed anyway; better a freind than an enemy. I believe we should reserve judgement on Snape. Aaaaugh. When does the next one come out?? I'm such a sucker!

There is a point in the book where they have an argument and Dumbledore insists that Snape do something that isn't identified. At the end, Dumbledore knew he was going to die and that having Snape kill him would be most helpful to Harry in the end.

At least, that's what I think might be the case. I'm not sure why Snape made that promise in the first place. Snape is the smartest villain in the series, if he did betray Dumbledore.

Snape makes the series for me... he's such a jerk, yet we've seen enough of his personality developed to the point where he's not a cardboard cutout. I'm glad that JK really let him take off in this book, instead of keeping him in a "supporting" role.

I think harry should have chugged it before the trip with Dumbledore, or at least brought it along... I guess he thought Hermione and Ron needed it more, but it would have saved a lot of trouble.

And why didn't the dim lad have a bezoar in his pocket thoughout the book?

him in, being his favorite apostle and all that. I kinda' like that theory, and yours as well!

one who could go through w/ it. Could anyone else in the OotP have done it? Probably not. That's why he wanted Snape in the first place.
And that is also why Snape was so upset when Harry called him a coward. It takes more guts to follow the final wishes of someone who you respect (in this case DD), even if you don't agree with them, than it does to finish off an enemy or to even show no action at all. Snape was no coward.

really seemed to get to him, more than Harry's attempts at cursing him.

It takes so much more courage to attend to the final wishes of someone than nearly anything else. Harry does not understand the situation so he calls Snape a coward. I think that in the end we will find out that he never was a coward and that he was always looking out for Harry's best interests (since Harry became their only hope).

and his duplicity. Maybe he really is a "triple agent" for the Order instead of LV. That alone makes me feel better about Dd's judgment of him. And if Snape is being forced to play a part he had no wish for, then he really is sacrificing alot.

I'm wondering if Snape had anything to do with the potion at the location of the locket horcrux?

One thing is that JKR made him so sneering at the end that I could hardly bear him.

So my accuracy count: 2 accurate, 1 not at all, 3 ambiguous. Spoilers....

Fred and George will be full members of the Order, but that's going to piss Molly off even more. Not really addressed.

They're also going to be disgustingly successful.
Yep (Tho I sorta wish they'd been a bit less successful....)

Romance.... all over the place. I'm thrilled about Tonks, though. That one works so well for me. (Yes, this is phrased ambiguously so that those who haven't got there won't get spoiled.) On repost where I can be a spoiler person: Honestly, I adore both Lupin and Tonks as characters, and am incredibly happy to see adults in the series getting nookie (and Pince and Filch, though weird, is kind of cool.)

Neville - that one tanked. Did he even get a double handful of mentions this book?

Snape's True colors: And what are they again??? I may in fact be more confused about Snape's alliances than I was before. There's that tiny chance that things in those last scenes were phrased so very specifically that there's still hope. Blast JKR.... Two more years of waiting for resolution is going to be ugly.

Snape teaching Harry: Well.... Harry did take potions, but....

Coming to understanding: Harry was there. Now? I can't see it happening.

So my totals: 2 accurate, 1 not at all, 3 ambiguous. And this is why I don't claim to be psychic.

I will say this book hurt even more than OOP.... and at this point, I'm thinking it was too tightly edited. There are scraps on the cutting room floor that, while not necessary to the plot, would have helped.

Going to white font to preserve a minor spoiler here. On Repost: Not bothering.

I'm annoyed that Harry spent most of OOP mourning in one fashion or another Cedric, but seemed not to do the same with Sirius. Whasszup wit dat?

Oh, well.... if it had been less tightly edited, the younger readers may not have been able to lift it.

I'm not certain, however, that I really want the younger readers reading it.... this one's sure to give nightmares. Unreconstructed Grimm in many ways, with all of the psychological archetypes running around.

This one's going to take a couple more readings (and probably a second copy to mark up) to really get all of the data out, and even then....

The other books wandered a bit more, and it was quite a bit shorter than OOTP. The wanderings were not a bad thing, with little subplots like the mimbulus mimbletonia, skeeter, et al.

Hate to say it, but some of the stern editing made some portions read a bit like slash.... more about plot than setting and mood.

I desperately need to talk about this book, but none of my normal reader friends are yet done with it. (One is reading it with his daughter, who is spending the summer with her mother, so he's reading it at her pace; one is at a conference this weekend, and my partner has decided that he needs to read The Darkness That Comes Before right now.)

So thank you from the bottom of my wordy, bookish heart.

thanks for joining this thread!

that book hit me like a hammer and I'm looking for other people's thoughts and ideas before I dive in for a reread!

on the 'net is that DD asks to see Snape when he arrives back at the castle, not Madam Pomphrey. Interesting.

It's weird. When I heard Rowling say a major character would die in book Six, I thought to myself that the most terrible blow to Harry and his friends would be if Albus Dumbledore was killed.

And there are a few clues as to what will happen later...Harry mentioned that Dumbledore said he'd never be gone from Hogwarts as long as people loyal to him are still there. (But if they close the school...who knows?)
And I read somewhere (I think it was in another thread in this Group) that Dumbledore's Patronus is a Phoenix...

I'm assuming Rowling is already starting to write book Seven.

Edited for clarity

JKR has said that all the deaths have a purpose. I think Dumbledore's was definitly the most significant. Dumbledore was the one person who could really protect Harry.

Now that Dumbledore's gone, and his mother's protection wearing off this coming summer, Harry is at his most venerable.

But like the death of his parents, the death of Cedric, and the death of Sirius, what will DD's death bring Harry?

I'm betting that whether he meant Snape to kill him or not, DD still has an ace up his sleeve somewhere.

It's also interesting that Snape wasn't really using occlumency on Harry in the bathroom.... parallel to Ron's not really getting the Felix potion....

"venerable"
ven·er·a·ble ( adj.) --
Commanding respect by virtue of age, dignity, character, or position.
Worthy of reverence, especially by religious or historical association: venerable relics.


vul·ner·a·ble ( adj. )
Susceptible to physical or emotional injury.
Susceptible to attack: “We are vulnerable both by water and land, without either fleet or army” (Alexander Hamilton).
Open to censure or criticism; assailable.


we hope he will be the former INSTEAD of the latter. Good Freudian slip there!

I assumed she meant venerable....

*I* find him venerable.... don't you?

anyone catch the Felix potion error?

when harry is given the Felix---its 12 hours worth

Later when he goes to use it it's 24 hours worth

He could have been mistaken.

a re-read will do a lot.

Just re-read the death scene.

Snape uses Avada Kadavra. Both Faux-Moody in GOF and Bellatrix at the end of OOP tell Harry that to use an Unforgivable curse, one has to mean it and take pleasure in the destruction. It has to have more than just righteous anger or duty behind it. There has to be sadism (which we know Snape has in spades) behind the curse for it to work.

Killing the one person in the world who trusts you and truly knows you out of duty to a higher cause? That would cause the person committing the act pain, and to my knowledge, we have never seen evidence of Snape as masochist, while we have seen plenty of Snape as sadist (Though we could make the argument that living with Peter Pettigrew is pretty masochistic.... I see him being a very bad roommate.)

he could have done a lot of nasty things, but they're called unforgivable curses for a reason.

what ELSE was he supposed to use in front of a bunch of DE's? Especially if he's trying to keep up a front? Have a look at the ultimate goal here; possibly the only way to get there is if Snape keeps up his front--even to this extreme. I do need a re-read of course.

where the "keeping up a front" thing falls apart.

What would it have done to Voldemort to lose mad handfulls of Death Eaters there? Snape could have saved DD and lied his way out of it like he always does.

I need to reread the scene where Snape and DD are arguing before I am really prepared to get on board with a "snape's not REALLY bad" theory.

Especially since JK rowling called him a "deeply horrible person," among other things.

http://www.madamscoop.org/themes/snape.htm

On edit:

http://wc6.worldcrossing.com/webx/?128@303.LAdWc9tqzqx@.1ddf35c0

In this thread on ANOTHER site, someone posted "Leave it to JKR to make us wonder about Snape even after he AK'd DD. How does she do it? I guess that's why she's so special."

True dat.

I really do hope that Snape, no matter how much of a bastard I think he is, isn't fully evil.

What do you mean?

Welcome aboard. :-)

Wait... are you a spy for the other side? :D

Someone casting avada kedavra has to truly mean it. If Snape, or anyone using Occlumancy, can hide what they're thinking from someone trying to read their minds, can they similarly use it to hide what they really want when using avada kedavra. If that makes sense at all.

if the lack of volition to kill DD on snape's part could be "masked" for snape to kill DD without really having that level of sadism?

interesting question...

I took a look at the HP-lexicon and found this: "In its more advanced form, Occlumency allows the user to suppress only feelings and memories that contradict what the user wishes a Legilimens to believe, thus allowing the Occlumens to lie without self-betrayal (OP24)."

Snape, an excellent Occlumens, could suppress feelings and memories that would not allow him to attack Dumbledore, and therefore use avada kedavra.

it's like what someone on HP lexicon posted that I referenced somewhere above and will here paraphrase:

"It's amazing that JK can write a scene where Snape sticks his wand right at Dumbledore and ices him in front of God and Harry Potter both and you're still sitting there like "Hmmmm.... does this really mean Snape is a bad guy???"

JKR's taught us that no matter how obvious something looks, never take it at face value.

I hear she's going to write mystery novels after Harry Potter. I can believe it :)

There are so many puzzles here....

I am SUCH a Potter fan, and it's the layering of the plot. I thought book 1 and 2 were cute, 3 was pretty good, and 4 was REALLY good. 3 is when I really started taking JK's skillz seriously, and 5 is when I realized that she is a BRILLIANT author... all the throwaway lines about Snape reading minds in the first 2 books... BRILLIANT.

Regulus Black?

the prevailing theory.

Leading to the conclusion that one of the objects is in the house of black.... unless they've binned it or mundungus has snaked it. ooops! :-)

Hmm... Maybe the locket was one of the things Kretcher hid away? Poor Kretcher, accidently helping the Order...

This book had so many surprises!

Like, guess what Harry, not only do you have the house, but you've got Kreacher too.... interesting that Malfoy would be the alternate owner... could the elves not sneak in after him to the ROR?

That's really interesting, especially since Dobby obviously got into the ROR when the DA was using it in book 5.

I thought the elf plots were missing something...

Seeing how much attention was paid to the house and objects in it in OOP.

different wizard houses, I enjoy the scenes at the burrow and grimmauld a great deal.

She didn't put the focus on Snape's house so much... the only thing that makes me think it was more than just a way station is all the books.

Subtle Nazi-Jewish reference there... hidden door in the wall that people live behind.

during the scouring of Grimmauld that nobody can open....

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Now the million doller (pound?) question: what happened to it?

And I believe I will be going to sleep about now. And have good dreams with no Inferi. *Shivers*

I'm about done here myself.

So was that thief guy who is a member of the order.

so the options are: Kreacher's got it in his nest, Mundungus has it, it's been binned, Kreacher's given it to the Malfoys, or it's still sitting on the shelf.

What happens if part of your soul is consigned to a sanitary landfill, replete with old diapers, batteries, rotten food, plastic bags, and sundry other toxic waste?

What about Snape?
JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I’ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I’m not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I’d rather people read it.

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html

Suppose Harry = Horcrux.

If that's the case then what if:

in Book 7; Harry kills Tom Riddle. Then Snape Kills Harry (possibly out of revenge), destroying the last bit of Tom's soul and ensuring he'll never return, and in the end doing good by doing evil?

Something to think about, anyway.

he can go after voldemort/riddle without getting rid of all the horcruxes first. so he would have to die before voldemort.

Just a little nagging thought in the back of my mind while I read. Anyone have any thoughts on it?

HARRY?????

Not on purpose, naturally, but as a result of the spell's backlash.

Time to take another good, scritunizing look at the wording of the prophecy.....

that Voldemort accidentially transferred some of his soul into Harry when he tried to kill him

and what about Draco? It seems to me that Snape killed Dumbledore to save Draco because Draco wasn't going to do it

and we know that if he failed in his mission, that he would have been toast

he still might be toast after all this is said and done anyway


even with Dumbledore's death, I wasn't sad. I started to tear up but then with all the couples in the end proclaiming their love, that goes back to the very first book--Harry was saved because of his mother's love for him; and that the wizarding world will be saved because of love

it's a pretty good message for our world as well.

Thanks JK for reminding us.

I think Voldermort intentionally transferred some of his soul into Harry when he tried to kill him as per what he thought he was suppose to do to fullfill the prophecy (he didn't count on Harry living much longer via Lily's protection).

it was mentioned at all. Since JKR just loves to give us clues.

But, since they raised the possibility of a living creature (Voldemort's snake) being used -- that would make sense, wouldn't it.


Speaking of Horcruxes -- last week, I was thinking about other examples of evil wizards who made formidable adversaries because they were difficult to kill by normal means. By some bizarre coincidence, one of them was the enchanter in Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series. He had created a Horcrux (though they didn't even have a word for it) by putting his soul into a sliver of bone (possibly his own fingerbone?) and hiding it. He couldn't be killed until the heroes found the bone (by sheer luck, and because they had a thieving crow helping them).

At a couple of points in OoP, Harry "sees" things at snake-level, and through snake's eyes (when the wizard at the ministry is attacked by a snake). That would argue that Harry does have some of LV's soul, to be able to "inhabit" Nagini like that.

May well be true.

"neither can live while the other survives," may well mean that one literally cannot survive the death of the other, which would be the
case if Harry were a human Horcrux.

Actually, I think that Harry might be the sixth Horcrux. He will die on the day that he destroys Voldemort.

This is a theme that has been repeatedly told in fanfiction. In fact, one of the best fanfics ever written about this is a story called "If you are Prepared," a Snarry slash story.

at HP lexicon about some of Dumbledore's last words being a suggestion that Malfoy could fake his own death.

Sorry I am half the posts in this thread, but I want to get all the ideas flowing in here. :-)

And it wouldn't really surprise me. After all, Snape, who still might be good, was the one running off with Draco.

and angered me. That's alot from one book. It is also going to require numerous re-reads. The philosophical dimensions of tyrants and despots creating their own downfalls was HUGE! The matter of choices was great. In light of everybody going against Harry regarding Malfoy & Snape, Harry stuck to his guns! Harry was able to "be" at Hogwarts and with Dumbledore in his actions at the same time.

OK, Phlegm was just too funny, Luna being the new Quidditch commentator and the U-NO-POO - LOL! I also cracked up with Ginny and where the tattoos were on the boys. My prediction was Book 7 for Ron & hermione. Was no one shocked that Harry is even in the book till page 37? The Snape scene with the Unbreakable Vow really made knots in my stomach as I read it. That was heavy foreshadowing. Dumbledore's anger also made me believe he knew and believed Snape had to kill him and had anticipated the Unbreakable Vow. Bellatrix would demand complete loyalty.

My sincerest wish is for the editors to bugger off because JKR needed more elbow room and becomes some sissy cried about OOtP being close to 900 pages it put her & US off!

Pg 510:

Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress?

I could have sworn she was talking about *!

And U-NO-POO kille me! :rofl:

that the Dursley's house will be destroyed in the next book.

Any thoughts?

I think Vernons blood vessel will finally explode if that happens too heh.

We'll be needing some comic relief. And we'll finally figure what's up with Petunia.

Was Snape ever really teaching Harry occlumency?

Snape cannot have invented levicorpus while an advanced potions student, because assuming he had the class after his OWLs, the spell was in use before then (Snape's worst memory).

Snape baits people constantly.... he's a baiting foo.... Sirius, Bellatrix, and Harry all are taunted into rashness by him.


Quotes and titbits:

"Rumors that he, himself was a great Dark wizard..." (P30)

Draco to Snape: "I know what you're doing, I can stop you." (P322)

Hagrid on Snape and DD's argument: "Dumbledore took too much for granted and maybe he (Snape) didn't want to do it anymore." (P405)

DD to Harry: "Go and wake Severus.... you swore to obey me!" (P583)

P585 DD knows what Draco's task is... through legilimency, or because he's been told?

and finally, P 592, DD to Draco: "No, Draco, it is my mercy and not yours that matters now."

Snape zapped Flitwick too... before or after he knew what was going on?

Dumbledore taunts Draco and the 4 death eaters like he's unafraid, but when Snape shows up, a total change of mood takes place.

And as posted above, there are three reads to Dumbledore's manner: Begging Snape yes, begging Snape no, and really surprised that he had been betrayed and fooled so badly. A and C together are, of course, options.

phoenix, he will rise from his own ashes. (I hope.) There have been several "faked" deaths and I believe that AD has performed some misdirection (w/ Snape's help). The fact that Dumbledor finally gave him the cursed DADA job sets the stage for Snape's departure.

As for the idead of Harry as a Horcrux? Harry may have to sacrifice himself to take Voldemort out.

JK says we need to figure out why both Harry and LV survived the Avada Kedavra curse.

LV survived because of the horcruxes, but could Harry have a horcrux too, such as, say.... Griffindor's sword???

Possible but unlikely I think. Dumbledore emphasized the importance of having one's soul whole and the relationship between an intact soul and the power/protection of love.

<<JK says we need to figure out why both Harry and LV survived the Avada Kedavra curse.>>

LV survived because of the horcruxes and though there may be more to it, I believe Lily's love and sacrifice repelled Avada Kedavra much the same way Harry's capacity for love made it impossible for LV to possess him in OotP. I am open to other possibilities, but that's what I believe now.

I kept expecting Harry to wonder that also
but I'm new to all this stuff so maybe only
evil guys plan for Horcruxes?

to get a horcrux.

Dumbledore wouldn't do that.

But when Harry was attacked, two people died, so there would have been enough death there to create two.

the time Voldemort was in power previously?

That sounds like the prophasy could cover that.

That would read into the prophecy. Still don't see how Harry could have had his soul split in order for Voldermort to be his horcruxes.

It does make sense that Harry had a piece of Voldermort in him, with having the parsoltongue ability, being able to at least feel Voldermorts strong emotions and what not. So yeah, maybe Harry is one of his.

One has to commit a terrible action (ie murder) in order to split their soul?

I could be wrong, about to start my re-read but that was the impression I'm left with.

which would rule out the harry-having-a-horcrux idea.

he's not a murderer, but in that scene with Draco.... interesting that Snape just came to the rescue that handily....

For one, Voldermort was going by what he knew of the prophecy. That he had to make this child his equal then kill it.

SO he finds Harrys parents, kills them (he had the intention of killing James (part of horcruxes complete there), Lily he gave the option of living from what it sounds like).

We do not know what happens after he kills Lily. I'm thinking that he performed what ever else needed to be done of the horcruxes to put part of his soul in Harry. Then intended to kill Harry (but not expecting the protection that Lily gave Harry).

Whatever it was, he didn't use his wand.

I'm beginning to wonder. Voldy DIDN'T seem to want or need to kill Lily, just wanted to get to Harry. BUT, why would Voldything implant part of his soul, knowing he'd have to kill it off later? The other horcuxes he keeps in very safe places, as if, at some point, he'd pull them out and re-incorporate them back into himself. Would he willingly give up a seventh of his soul? I'm just rambling, but the idea that Harry is a horcruxes is fascinating--would explain parseltongue, etc.

He could have been wanting to make a horcrux with the death of the Potters, but went the curse backfired who knows what could have happened.

In order for him to fullfill what he knew the prophecy to be, Voldy had to make Harry his equal. Therefore putting a part of his soul in Harry should in his mind achieve that. Whats to kill a small part of yourself if you feel it will bring about greater power to Voldy :shrug:

Harry could be a Horcrux unknown to Voldemort. Also, Voldemort may not have had time to do all of the 7 part Horcruxes. Voldy may have left a few undone so we don't know if all 6 horcruxes need to be found.

The one in the Hufflepuff cup is huge. How much you wanna bet that Hepbzibah Smith is Zacharias's Smith grandma which will force harry to have to work with Zacharias... :evilgrin:

pretty transparent... the Smith-Smith relationship.

After the Mark Evans fiasco, Rowling's more careful about throwing out potential clues.

Yeah its true, he was pretty unknown to Voldy till OOtP when Voldy finally realized that Harry could read his emotions.

As well as Hermione and Ron. I still think Harry & Ginny will eventually hook up again if neither of them dies. :scared:

I was completely shocked by Snape's getting the DADA position. I feel (as other have mentioned in the thread) that this book was edited so closely that I missed the interactions between Harry and Snape in the classroom--especially since Snape proved so pivotal in the end. And especially after the opening chapter when we learned that Pettigrew's his room mate, never mind the whole Unbreakable Vow thing.

Snape: redeemed in book 7 or not? I agree it bodes well for Snape that he told Harry not to use unforgivable curses and didn't kill him. And it occurred to me that Dumbledore's death was a ruse or a mercy killing. Mme. Pomfrey was never an inner-circle character, so that DD chose Snape over her again and again is significant.

I wonder if Harry will bring out Snape's old Advanced Potions Book next time. He's gotten a tool with every book. The HBP potions book seems like his tool du jour.

I'm skeptical about Hogwarts opening again, but it does seem like a good base camp. Or perhaps a showdown. It'd be interesting to see Slytherin House discontinued by the end of the next book, but the Sorting Hat's songs lately about all the houses sticking together might foreshadow Snape--and maybe Malfoy?--into defeating LV.

End of speculation. Even with the excessive editing, the book was compelling, well-written, and meaty. I can't even see how Rowling will be able to wrap all this up in only one more book. But then, she's amazing!

The werewolf gets some lovin! ... Even though I thought Lupin/Sirius would have been cute too.

I thought Harry/Ginny was a possibility, although I really wanted to see Luna get with someone. Maybe because she reminds me of myself :)

there are still single Weasley brothers...

(Hey, everyone else is getting some Weasley action, why not Luna?)

They seem right for each other. Did anyone else think the Fleur would drop Bill in the end? I was pleasantly surprised. I think it turned Mrs. Weasley around.

I believe JKR has squished this rumour.

Kinda saw it coming, but not until Book 7. I'm still numb heh.

I would have much sooner, except that I've had to work both of the last two nights.

Looks like it's going to be a very different book seven.

Didn't see SNAPE coming at all. As for Malfoy, I always thought he'd be a ruthless little SoB, never friendly and always a bit of a dodgy character (a bit like Snape up until this point), but never thought he'd be in that far.

And Dumbledore...:cry:

I didn't see Snape coming AT all. I had a feeling that with Dumbledore saying that he was human and could make mistakes that maybe he shouldn't put AS much trust in Snape, but the way Snape came in there and made the killing blow like that. The more I'm thinking on it now and reading these other posts, I'm starting to think he didn't have a choice in the matter since he made that Unbreakable Vow. If Malfoy fouled up, it was Snapes butt on the line too.

As for Draco, I always had him as all talk. That kinda proved it in the end, not saying he isn't a bad little prat. But yeah, there's a difference between talking the talk and walking the walk and I never have seen him as the type who could follow through with actual killing.

would have finished sooner, but much of Sat. given to some reno work with kitchen cabinets. I thought DD would make it through to book 7--I got misty-eyed at his death. For a few pages I hoped he wasn't really dead, but when McGonnigal entered his office and she and Harry saw DD's portrait on the wall, I knew it was real. Just some thoughts: I suppose Snape could still fool us, and actually be a good guy in very deep disguise. Maybe DD KNEW he had to die, maybe because whatever happened to his hand couldn't be cured. Maybe he and Snape had an agreement that should it come to that, it would be useful for Snape's cover to kill DD. Perhaps it was important for SNAPE to kill DD, that's why DD played Malfoy as he did, waiting for Snape to show up? The idea about Harry being a Horcruxes (sp?) is interesting, BUT, Voldything was actually trying to kill Harry when Harry was an infant, not trying to keep him alive for use as a horcruxes. (I can't refer to the book for the spelling of that word, as I loaned it to a friend after finishing it!) I think Hogwarts will still be an important setting in the 7th book, plus everyone's still got to practice their magic to be up to snuff for the war! It's left a bit ambiguous if Ginny will accept that she needs to be apart from Harry "for her own good." I can see Ginny ignoring that! One thing that really stuck with me was the depressed, vacant look of Diagon Alley, now that everyone's using such caution--that really set the mood and brought home how much danger everyone's in. And it was a neat plot twist that Harry finally does well in Potions; that was a big stumbling block for him becoming an auror. Poetic justice that it was Snape who helped him, inadvertently! More to comment on, but this is too long already!

thanks for joining the thread.

Sacrificing such a character to a flunkie or other (Snape or Draco) - for what? Some clarification better come in the next book - and it better be "he didn't die". It's just too meaningless.
Loved the Horcruxes , the entire flow of the story. When Snape got DADa I was sure he'll die. I enjoyed every minute of reading up to that point. After which I merely scanned. I am pissed.

but alive in a different way. Dumbledore died after giving Harry all of the knowledge needed to survive Voldemort and finish him. Dumbledore had killed the Dark Wizard Grindlewald (SS) and learned a few things from that. Harry would never be able to be his own man with Dumbledore around. Most of the Wizarding community would have given the accolades or put it down to Dumbledore's power. So Jo, gulp, made Harry fully responsible for his future choices regarding the Dark Lord.

Dumbledore also was highly skilled with ancient magic and would his sacrifice have a lasting protection as well? Dumbledore was dying - and what shocked me was:

Why was Fawkes not able to heal Dumbledore's hand or was that the best Fawke's could do?

But it angered me too, Harry is now all alone...with Hermione & Ron who are at war with each other...

makes much more sense in this book than if it happened in the next book. This way Harry has time to get used to the idea of life and Voldemort-hunting w/o DD, whereas if it came while he was actively hunting LV in book 7, it could be a paralyzing blow to Harry and/or would take up too much space dealing with the grieving process. As long as DD must die, JKR definitely made the right choice killing him now.

All bets are off after he visits the Dursley's for a few days. Dumbledore sitting there having that discussion with the Dursley's almost as if he knew he would not be back to make the request for one more year for Harry.

Also, not sure McGonagall is the best person to be Headmistress. But Dumbledore's ghost picture is there and she now has two jobs to fill. Asst headperson, and Defense Against the Dark Arts. Harry will not be confiding in her very often.

The schools enchantments will bring more people back plus over the summer Harry has to get his appariton license. Ginny needs her O.W.L.'s.

slughorn for slytherin house chair and potions

we need a new transfiguration teacher and of course DADA.

to teach, being an auror. I think they'll all have to skip the "usual" course arrangements, and do some "crash teaching." Sort the kids out into their strongest subjects, and have them increase their strengths. They're training an army now!

but the post is cursed, so I don't think Lupin could do it.

You think Harry could teach DADA? Or the real Mad-Eye?

be great of course. I just forgot him. Lupin had a great teaching style, so I'd like to see him teach something.

in this book that the post was cursed by Voldemort... he applied for it and didn't get it, so he cursed it.

until my friend returns my copy. Damn! (of course, I COULD by another copy, but I'll try to hold off on that!)

He left before I finished. He told me he couldn't wait the four days until he got home and went out and bought a copy. :)

all the others before I do a HBP reread... so much stuff.

So, why not?

sitting up there at the staff table at the start-of-year banquet, smirking at one and all?

previous school year? Nice plotting! Harry does need to recover from DD's death (so do I!)

who was DD dying to save? and what will that sacrifice do?

if Dumbledore died to protect Snape and Draco?

Harry's mother died to protect him, and that made a powerful bond.

Will Voldemort be able to use servants that Dumbledore died to protect?

Wow! Very interesting angle. That would fit w/DD delaying until Snape got there to kill him.

at the end, where he feels something hitting his face?

Any ideas?

It's the closest thing to a curse or hex Snape lays on Harry, and it knocks him down, but doesn't really do any damage.

Harry wasn't wounded or harmed by it and Snape, the master of
nonverbal spellcasting did not utter an incantation out loud.
From the description of the hex, it seemed to be similar to slapping a person.

-crux = cross... easy enough.

hor- is a bit trickier...

horo= limit, boundary, season, time
horre= dreadful, bristle, stand on end, tremble
horre= storehouse

Ideas?

Etymology: Latin cruc-, crux cross, torture
1 : a puzzling or difficult problem : an unsolved question
2 : an essential point requiring resolution or resolving an outcome <the crux of the problem>
3 : a main or central feature (as of an argument)

So etymologically, it could mean "horrible torture," which would match your "horre" root.

But the idea of a storehouse is also intriguing. With M-W's 3rd definition for crux, taking the soul to be central to being, it might mean "soul storehouse."

"Dictionary of word roots and combining forms" for the definitions.

Must-have book for biologists and potter fans alike.

a wizard's soul.

Just the first thing that's popped out on re-read, page 106, Ollivander the wandmaker has disappeared and it doesn't look like he went with a struggle. Lupin says (paraphrased) he's the best wandmaker and if the other side has him, it isn't good.

You'll recall in the first book he sold Harry his wand, telling him that LV owned the "twin" wand. He also praised LV, saying that he was a great wizard who did great--if terrible--things. Harry left with his new wand not knowing if he liked Ollivander very much.

What made the wands twins? They both had one of Fawkes the Phoenix's tail feathers at their core. Fawkes flies off at the end of HBP after singing a mourning tune for DD.

Fawkes has appeared in each book, like a regular human character, and has even been intricately involved in plot lines. I wonder if Ollivander and Fawkes, either together or separately, will play a role in the final book.

Doesn't that mean he died when Dumbledore died? :shrug:

his patronus was a phoenix. she didn't say explicitly that it was fawkes.

at DD's funeral, harry sees a shape like a phoenix fly away.

also, if it was fawkes, he wouldn't have been able to stick around after DD died.

So Dumbledore lives on or comes back through Fawkes? He is a phoenix after all...

but it will be through the portraits.

That's how it's gonna be. Confident prediction.

and maybe Harry will carry one of his Dumbledore trading cards around to talk to him? That's kind of cheesy though. :think:

have the mojo, ya know? if they did, he could talk to his parents.

the portraits in the office seem to have more mojo. nigellus especially seems to have his own ideas through his portrait, and that's no accident. we were reminded of this power in book 6 again when nigellus says he'd never let students question the running of the school.

I remember D. entering and leaving the card, but you're right, never talking.

Well, that means Harry will have to go back to the school.

but I figures that the cards were like any other picture, and had the same rules about talking.

Neither photos or the cards have ever spoken, but all the paintings hanging in Hogwarts seem to be able to talk, as does Siruius' mother's portrait at Grimmauld Place.

man, if I knew that my painting could call people mudbloods and blood traitors and accuse them of besmirching the house of my fathers after I died, I'd be so there!

A patronis is a silvery wispy thing, Fawkes seemed to be real enough bringing Harry the sword in Chamber of Secrets, by giving a tail feather to each wand, by crying healing tears into Harry's wounds. Perhaps she said DD's patronus was a phoenix?

:P

From MuggleNet:
"Ollivander is an anagram of An Evil Lord

This could mean that Mr Ollivander is not someone to be trusted or is on the side of Voldemort."

That's what I remembered when I read that.

He made everyone's wands! Sabotage? J/K :silly:

:wtf:

All I know is, DD's death better have been for something. I am still pissed over how Sirius went out like a punk in OotP. Talk about stupid, meaningless deaths...

I called it when Dumbledore made Harry vow to follow his orders no matter what. I just didn't know who/what would do the deed, though.

Another thing I will call: to borrow a term from my other hobby, wrasslin', Draco Malfoy is going to turn face in Book 7. I always knew he was a little weasel who talked a lot of shit but was ultimately harmless (well, maybe not totally harmless--he's an accessory at the very least). I think he can and will be worked on--hell, I could never stand the little bastard, and even *I* felt sorry for him. I don't think his heart is really in it, and that a lot of the posturing and shittalk is coming from a place of trying to live up to his family's reputation. If anything, my slasher's eye saw plenty of fodder for the Harry/Draco shippers to go nuts over. :P

As for "Cissy"? Maybe she'll pull a Lily by the end--she was clearly willing to risk death and worse by betraying LV 's confidence, all to protect her son. It's not really that big of a stretch to assume she'd go the extra mile for Draco. If you're willing to buy into the Snape is still working for the Order of the Phoenix theory, it could well be that she's already turned and that Snape is fulfilling his Oath to her by keeping Draco out of LV's clutches (regardless of who Snape is really working for, I don't think it's mere coincidence that he happened to run off with Draco). Of course, like Mrs. Araz from last season of 24, she may still believe as deeply in the cause as ever, but is not willing to sacrifice her son for it. (God, I never thought I'd be drawing comparisons b/w 24 and Harry freaking Potter, but years of watching that show has made me so paranoid about moles and triple-crossing that at one point I was suspecting *Tonks*!)

I don't think Hogwarts should close, either. To draw parallels to yet another geeky hobby of mine, Hogwarts is now what Balamb Garden was in Final Fantasy 8: the first line of defense against the Dark Arts. Tonks, Lupin and the rest will have their hands full dealing with the DEs (methinks DD's death will embolden them), but what needs to happen is what someone said upthread, a crash course in defense. Turn the DA into SeeD--*this* is what the youngsters should be training for. (I'm thinking of the "Graduation Day" episode of Buffy when all the students tore off their graduation robes and took arms to fight the mayor). With all the resources at Hogwarts, it would be batshit insane not to mention completely stupid to close it down. Hell, it's not as if the place is anymore unsafe than the rest of Britain, even though it is considerably less safer now that DD's enchantments are off it. Still, if there was a cult of sociopathic wizards running loose, I can think of few places I'd rather be than at Hogwarts.

The shipper stuff...I have to admit, HP is one of the few fandoms where I really have little interest in the ships, and am more interested in the actual plot, but I'm happy about Tonks and Lupin. I've always been a Lupin/Sirius shipper but since there's a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening outside of fanfic, Tonks/Lupin is definitely something I could support. They're my two favorite characters besides Sirius and they both deserve to be happy. I also didn't believe Fleur would leave Bill--call me crazy, but I knew that girl wasn't as shallow and snooty as everyone was making her out to be. Harry/Ginny? Yeah, I've seen that coming since CoS, and I'm happy about it even if it was fleeting. Mark my words though: those two are going to reconcile by the end. Does anyone really think Ginny is just going to sit around waiting for Harry to save the world, after the way she chewed him out way back when ("I'm younger than you were the first time you faced YKW!"). That girl's made of steel, and something tells me that when this is all over, they are going to be kicking ass and taking names at each other's side, assuming they are both alive (knowing JKR Ginny may well slip on a banana peel and fatally hit her head on a doorknob--no, I'm not bitter about Sirius :P).

I'm going to have to re-read a few times. I am still somewhat gobsmacked and I know there is stuff I missed at the end.

I don't see that couple going anywhere, they're perfect for each other.

I guarantee you that, somewhere, someone is writing this as we speak. In all the gory details.

I love teh Internets! :D

(I think Moaning Myrtle should get together with Nearly Headless Nick. Sure, there's the head thing and all, but still...he's quite the gentleman. Er, gentleghost). :silly:

I think half of the ships in the book were put there as a sacrifice to the almighty god of fanfic.

Filch and Pince????

You can't tell me that's not the most hilarious pairing JK could imagine!

Making comparisons between Harry Potter and FF8... that's going to give me some interesting dreams :D

Personally, I've always thought that Hogwarts was going to come under siege. I'm not sure if the ending of book 6 counts toward that.

And I agree, Ginny is not giving up that easily. The girl has lasted four and a half books of unrequited love and faced death before. She's not going to give up just because Harry says so.

until after the chapter where the Dark Mark over Hogwarts is the chapter header.

Now that I'm thinking about it, there are more and more parallels. The Harry/Draco rivalry is a lot like Squall/Seifer's rivalry (esp. when you take into account that Seifer really was all talk when it came down to it). The pensieve is a *lot* like Ellone's ability to send people back in time (only you can't actually effect the past with it, and the people in the memory don't know you're there). There's Rinoa being possessed by Ultimecia and releasing Adel from her tomb (Ginny being possessed by Riddle's diary and opening the Chamber of Secrets) and the open fighting at Hogwarts reminded me a lot of the part when Ultimecia!Edea's forces stormed Balamb Garden and Squall had to rally the students to fight back. And, probably most importantly, in both universes love and friendship were what ultimately won the day.

Man, the stuff that comes to me at 2:30 in the morning...;)

Um... at least Hogwarts can't fly...

It's kind of interesting, I tend to think of Seifer and Draco in the same way: They're not really evil, just assholes.

Draco's evil?

But compared to his father or to Bellatrix, he's nothing. Besides, I think he was having some second thoughts when facing Dumbledore.

I really thought he'd be around for the finale. I also think Draco's been a very second-rate villain--the snotty rich boy who seldom goes around without his "bodyguards." I think he's afraid of his father, but now that Lucius is in Azkaban, maybe he'll lighten up a bit. Always just seemed basically cowardly. And yeah, after visiting some fan fic sites, D/H IS wildly popular, tho' leaves me cold! Interesting take on "Cissy"-that she may be turning her back on Voldy.
I love Tonks and Lupin getting together, but Tonks was so "off" for most of the book, I actually thought it might be a spy using polyjuice potion! Ginny will NOT accept staying away from Harry for her own safety. And I think she gets her spine from having 6 older brothers. FWIW, I'm STILL bitter about Sirius' death--it didn't really make sense to me from a plot point of view. Why introduce this terrific character, then off him so soon? I really want to reread, but lent my copy to a friend, so have to wait!

Dumbledore trusted Snape to the end. Unless Snape was under an Imperius Curse, which I doubt, he is most definitely a Bad Guy through and through. There was no reason for Dumbledore to allow himself to be killed that I can see, so I am reading this scene in a straightforward way.

Very significant, that passage where Harry muses on how four different people have cared enough for him to die protecting him and that now he has to fight for himself. That's his coming of age moment. And now he has absolute proof that even the wisest adults can be WRONG in their judgement, as Dumbledore was about Snape. Harry will trust his own intuition and judgement more because of this, another part of his coming of age.

I thought the book was a bit uneven, slow until the last quarter and then WHAM, and ever-escalating intensity. I didn't care for how the book ended so abruptly after the crescendo.

I do NOT see why Dumbledore took Harry with him to check on the Horcrux in that sea cave. He would have been wiser to take another accomplished magician, not an incompletely trained boy. The scene and its later fallout does show again Harry learning that even Dumbledore can be WRONG about important things- it's not a real Horcrux.

The HBP was good for the advancing the story. It was the coming of age book, the maturing book and the testing book. the relationships were all strained in every direction and Harry learned to trust his judgment and make his own choices.

Snape is sadistic, but there may be a small kernel of redemption in there. Someone from the Dark side has to go over to the Light side to give Hope. Snape is the most likely candidate and Draco the recipient. Blech!

The Horcrux, the real locket, was stolen. RAB, some pose that it is Sirus's brother. Possibly. What the note did say was someone who had been on the dark side was now in the fight on the Light side as the note is addressed to the Dark Lord. Means Harry needs to deliver the note...

Book 7 is really the end, you can see it and feel it. Maybe she will fast forward Harry and tell the story in retropective or 10 years later. But it certainly leaves some wonderful and ghastly opportunities.

to set up the tying of all the ends in the final book. That's why it was uneven and not very satisfying (as Harry Potter books go) in and of itself.

I do agree in suspecting that "RAB" is Sirius' brother Regulus. He's said to have died, but perhaps he staged a fake death and went underground instead. Then ultimately Harry would have another brother/father-like comrade when he resurfaced in the final fight against Voldemort. Harry is bound to come across whoever RAB is when he is tracking down those horcruxes.

If Regulus was alive, then he would be the heir, not Harry.

Remember Dumbledore's worry that perhaps Bellatrix may have inherited the estate?

Sharp eye!!!!!!!!!

And the necklace might have been a real Horcrux - it may have been swapped out after DD retrieved it. Remember, he was tossed out and lay there alone for a bit - someone may have taken it at that time.

See my post on Red Herrings. . .

and I don't remember which book it's in, but Harry is in Filch's office after he gets in trouble for befouling the castle and Peeves creates a disturbance and Harry looks at Filch's desk and sees the Qwickspell papers?

Peeves creates the disturbance by dropping...........

A VANISHING CABINET.

I'm rereading HBP before I go back to the other books. It's amazing what I missed by not knowing Snape was the HBP!

It would make sense. We know Tom opened the CoS when he was at Hogwarts, we know he learned about horcruxes at Hogwarts. It would certainly simplify book 7 if Harry learned he had already disposed of one horcrux. Plus it would mirror/foreshadow Nagini being used as a horcrux.

Ginny and Quirrel.

What's the difference between being posessed and being a horcrux?

That spirit controls your body, actions, and maybe even your brain. A human horcrux only would be only a partial soul, and it might not control your actions but be more like renting storage space. So maybe a better question would be: what's the difference between a soul and a spirit? :)

I finished CoS last night, and I am interested in this idea.

That was just me barking off the top of my head. You're right, in light of Ginny's possession in CoS via the diary horcrux, I can see how there might not be much difference between human horcruxes and possession.

until the 7th book, but I'm sure Rowling has given us clues.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4690000/newsid_4690800/4690885.stm

Sounds like some of the reporters have read it and some haven't.

My personal favorite:

Cara McKenzie for Radio Forth - Every year since Harry has been to Hogwarts the defence against the dark arts teacher has left Hogwarts or died every year. Does that mean that something will stop Snape from being the defence against the dark arts in book 7?

JK Rowling: Yes. I really can't say more than that. That is because one of those questions that is a very good question and everyone would like to know the answer but it gives a lot away. There must obviously be a new one.

:rofl:

Looks like Hogwarts will be open from your post:

JKR: There must obviously be a new {DADA teacher}.





And Aunt Petunia will somehow 'fess up to knowing more about magic in book 7:

David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.

Is that true?

JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.

*birdbrain*

post in the thread.

Is it not possible that Dumbledore has a few Horcruxes of his own around? If the only requirement for making one is that you have killed someone in the past, does anyone really doubt that Dumbledore killed a few Deatheaters in the past?

Just a thought.

As to the half-blood prince bit, that was actually my first thought as soon as the potion expertise became evident.

in immortality at all.

He also gives harry a stern lecture on how nasty it is to split your soul.

I'd say it's unlikely.

by the wayside.

perform the cruciatus or avada kedavra.

forming a horcrux is the darkest of dark magic. we'd see that right around the time we'd see him kill off a beloved character and run throught the hogwarts gates cackling and insulting harry while dragging draco behind.

Speaking of whom, who do you think is going to win the quidditch cup in 7 now that slytherin doesn't have a seeker?

in splitting a soul? If someone was good and was forced into killing another in defense, could not the pain and guilt offer the same result or a like spell with a less evil association?

I laughed out loud, chewed half my fingernails off in anxiety when Harry and Dumbledore go to get the horcrux, and then bawled like a baby at the end....

My favorite scene:
"It's going to be all right, sir," Harry said over and over again, more worried by Dumbledore's silence than he had been by his weakened voice. "We're nearly there... I can apparate us both back... Don't worry..."

"I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore, his voice a little stronger despite the freezing water. "I am with you."

oh geez! I'm getting all teary just typing this! :(

on the coming of age. This book made you mutter, yell, scream and cry. We could not ask for more...that happy ending thing for Book 7, but it would ring false to a degree... :pals:

I guessed Snape was the half-blood prince after the introduction of the Adv. Potions textbook. I just sort of tried to guess whose family we didn't know much about that we'd already been introduced to... that had a vast knowledge of Potions, and perhaps leaned toward darker spells and unorthodox ways of doing things.

The Dumbledore dying thing was the speculation around the net for awhile before the book came out, but I was still shocked :(

I cried :(

The potions skill and hints was a dead giveaway wasn't it? Or at least I thought so.

It seems some people I talked to were surprised it was Snape, but I seemed to think it was straightforward enough :shrug:

in the pensive (from one of the previous books). . . I thought that was a bit of a giveaway too, hell if someone had used that spell on me, I'd write it down too.

:bounce:

Whatever are we to do about Severus.

My take on the book. Warning--Spoilers ahead!

http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?s=0de30e4b488a49e772dcff4ab503bb00&threadid=92301

Would you mind reposting them here?

Snape and Draco were in a sort of competition, or at least Draco was competing with Snape, so that would explain why Snape was unaware of the Death Eaters in the school. Snape was probably not competing with Draco, especially if the LIHOP/MIHOP theories are accurate.

As far as the value of the potions book goes, it's one of Rowling's finer details that Snape winds up teaching Harry a lot about potions after all... we'll see if Harry uses the book or if he's so disgusted with Snape that he chucks it, like he did Sirius' mirror.

(Speaking of books, there is a recurring theme of evil books: in book 1 we have Moste Potente Potions (from whence the polyjuice potion), in 2 we have Riddle's diary, in 3 we have the Monster Book of Monsters, I haven't come up with anything for 4 and 5, and in 6 we have Advanced Potions.)

The attitude of Hermione towards Snape and the book (and even Harry) is interesting. I think we'll be seeing more of Snape's family (or at least I sure hope so).

The parallels between Snape, Harry, and Tom Riddle seem to be deepening, as though Harry could have gone that way were it not for the love of his friends. (A supporting example being the hat trying to put him in Slytherin. When Harry asked Dumbledore about it at the end of CoS, DD said that he wasn't a slytherin because he didn't WANT to be a Slytherin, he valued other things like loyalty and friendship).

I think one of the reasons this book read like fanfic in some areas is that Rowling's message is that love is what keeps people from going over to the dark side. Even her plotline about Pince and Filch is her way of showing that though Filch is a jerk, he's still on the side of good.

So where does this leave Snape?

Don't read this if you haven't finished reading HBP and don't want to
be absolutely, positively SPOILED!!!






















Still Here?? Then I take it you want to be SPOILED!!!Don't say I didn't WARN YOU!!!!

Deep-See Fishing for Red Herrings, or
Whatever shall we do about Severus?

My conclusion is that we do nothing about Severus but keep on writing him (fanfic writers such as I am) or understanding him as we have been. Is he a villain? At this point, I honestly think not.

You can imagine my dismay when I checked some of the listservs and journal entries last night and found that some people actually bought the storyline at the end of HBP. I mean, really folks? One of the first things all of us should know is that JKR is a mistress of deception and misdirection with these books. Things are never as pat as they seem.

This element of ambiguity is what makes these books fun. We are supposed to be left with a little mystery to figure out. And HBP is nothing but one big cliffhanger, if you
ask me.

One key thing to remember is that everything is written from HARRY'S point of view.

Now, let's see—that means that the POV is that of a sixteen-going-on-seventeen, hormonal teenager who is both callow and impetuous and given to seeing the world in terms of black and white; we versus they. Let's see, again—that means that Harry thinks exactly like a normal teen. And, as the mother of a teenager (adults know NOTHING, adults are SLOW, adults fail to take action QUICKLY, adults are CLUELESS, yada, yada, yada), I can tell you that Rowling has a first-class handle on the teenage psyche in HBP. She plays this to the hilt, especially to a climax in the depiction of Harry's viewpoint of what happened at the top of Astronomy tower.

Did anyone else notice that in the end Harry "feels sorry" for Malfoy (a peer), but that all of his rage is directed toward Snape (despised adult) at the end? Who the heck cornered
Dumbledore in the tower in the first place? Who let Death Eaters into the school? It sure wasn't Snape. This one scene is a perfect example of the selective memory that Harry has—in the end, little or nothing is reported to any others of Malfoy's doings; but Harry harps upon Snape's "killing" of Dumbledore. Just a little something to make you go "Hmmmmm. . ."

Consider this—(Page numbers refer to the US Scholastic Version)

A. At his meeting with Bellatrix and Narcissa, Snape claims that Dumbledore refused him the DADA job out of fear that contact with Dark Arts might lead him to resume old habits (page 27). Yet it is revealed with the beginning of the \ school year that Snape is to be the DADA teacher (pages 166-167). Why the
switchup by Dumbledore at this time?

It is clear that Voldemort was not aware of this. Why? Because he specifically cursed the job (page 446). We know of at least one death (Quirrel) and one case of insanity (Lockhart) caused by that curse. Would Voldemort have allowed his "faithful servant" Snape to be affected by the curse if he had known of the switch?
And we do know that Snape was indeed affected—he left before the year was up.

I'd tell ya what I actually think, but that'd be a free plot bunny (to fanfiction writers such as me), and I'm not so sure I want to give that one away right now. There is a challenge going on right now, after all. . .

B. If Malfoy's belief that Snape was a glory hog was accurate (page 324) , then why didn't Snape kill Dumbledore earlier? We aren't given any timeframes between Draco's getting his "assignment" and Dumbledore's dealings with the "Marvolo Ring." Snape had a clear opportunity during the incident involving the "Marvolo Ring" Horcrux. (page 503). Or else he could have then assisted Draco in the fulfillment of Voldemort's command by leaving the weakened Dumbledore to Draco's mercies at that time as well. Dumbledore would be dead, Draco's
mission accomplished and the Vow kept, with all nastiness attributed to Dumbledore's contact with a cursed object. No muss, no fuss, no Death Eaters in the school. . .

C. All indications are that Snape did report the fact that he had taken an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore.

1. Dumbledore tells Draco that he was fully aware of the murder plot against him, and that he was aware all year. He explains that he had been on the lookout for action by Draco and he explains why he did not act against Draco from the outset (pages 585 and 591). We sorta know who gave Dumbledore the information.

2. Just as Narcissa asked Snape to protect Draco, Dumbledore also asked him to do so. Dumbledore was well aware of the trouble the Malfoy family was in because of Lucius' failings.

3. Snape was unaware of much of Draco's plans. He did not know that there were DEs in the castle, and he had to be summoned. If he was truly in on the whole thing, wouldn't he have been prowling the corridors at that time (page 325).

4. I believe the argument between Snape and Dumbledore (overheard by Hagrid, pages 405-406) was about Snape'f fulfillment of the Vow. Since the murder of Dumbledore was involved, he was highly resistant to keeping the vow. Dumbledore insisted that he keep it, not wanting Snape to face the penalty of breaking the vow (page 326) or Draco to be
killed by Voldemort.

5. Dumbledore was not pleading for his life (pages 595 and 596); he was actually begging Snape to fulfill his Vow and obey the command given during the argument (pages 405-406). Think—Snape had to summon enough anger at Dumbledore to use the killing curse. How would you feel if your best friend—someone you'd come to view as a father or
mother laid the charge upon you to murder him or her?
And especially when that murder could also lead to you being a fugitive, homeless, friendless, on the run, losing everything you ever had?

D.. If Snape is truly a villain, then why was he still trying to TEACH Harry something during the fight at the end? Why did Snape not throw any curses back at Harry? Why did he lift the Cruciatus that one of the DEs hit Harry with? (pages 602-603). For the reason why he was so angry at being labeled a coward, please see number 5 above.

E. Snape's announcement to Harry that he was the HBP wasn't for nothing. Harry still has access to the book. Wanna bet he takes it with him? Useful info. . .

F. One of the biggest giveaways to Snape's true status is Hermione's continued reluctance to actually name him a villain at the end. Hermione did not like the fact that Harry resorted to the notations in the book, but that was mostly because she didn't like the academic competition. Her halfhearted response to Harry's "—murderer." remark on page 637 should say something to you. Hermione listens when Harry and others declare Snape a killer, but she says nothing. Keep this in mind; Hermione is the known avatar character (Mary Sue) of Rowling. Look at how Hermione did further research on Eileen Prince to the
point of finding out that she was Snape's mother. Keep your eyes on this one folks. Wanna bet Snape's mom is still alive?

G. Something else occurred to me. Did anyone note MINERVA MCGONAGALL's reaction to Snape's so-called "Killing" of Dumbledore?
If anyone should be entirely insensed, it should be her. But her
reaction seems a little too gentle if you ask me.
She appointed a new (temporary) head of Slytherin, but little else.
Watch out for Minerva--she knows a lot more than she gives away--


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thoughts? Questions? Comments???

many, many good thoughts here.

And I could be mistaken, but since when does the effects of the avada kedavra spell include hurling the body 10 feet back or so? I thought it was just a massive flash of green light, and then thud?

When Moody/Crouch used it on the spider in Goblet of Fire, it simply died, and he swept it off the table. You'd think that a spell that hurtled Dumbledore off a tower would send a dead spider flying to smash against the far wall of the room.
When Wormtail used it on Cedric Diggory near the end of the same book, Cedric died, I don't think he was hurled back really far, if at all. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have the book nearby)

But when Sname used it on Dumbledore in Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore was thrown high into the air, off the parapet of the tower.
Now, Rowling could have just simply used dramatic license there, but from what I've noticed, she doesn't do something "because it looks neat." She's very deliberate in her writing.

Anyone else find this odd?

(edited for spelling and clarity)