Are Jews abandoning the Democratic Party ?? And why ??

We all know that Jews have been one of the stalwarts of the Democratic Party.

jdots mentioned that there was a 7% increase in Jews voting for bush !!

Is that accurate ?

Is this due to assimilation?

Is the Republican vocal support of Israel the reason ?

Is the Democratic party wavering its support of Israel??

If 7$ increase is accurate, will it continue ?

Do (some) Jews relate America's war on terror to Israel's brutal war on terror and therefore voted for bush ?


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Interesting article

The Battle for the Jewish Vote

http://www.beliefnet.com/includes/v3/edPop.html


The "Jewish vote" has become a coveted prize in the 2004 election. The Republican Party seeks to improve on the dismal 19 percent of the Jewish vote that George W. Bush won in the 2000 election and is targeting, in particular, Orthodox Jewish voters, young Jewish voters, and pro-Israel activists. At one point, Republicans even harbored hopes of equaling the 39 percent of the Jewish vote that Ronald Reagan garnered in 1980. The Democratic Party, which has won at least a plurality of the Jewish vote in every presidential election since 1924, is likewise courting Jews. It argues that traditional Jewish interests -- the security of Israel, the wall of separation between church and state, and liberal social policies--should impel Jews to vote for the Democratic ticket again.
The bare-knuckled campaign for Jewish votes seems surprising. After all, Jews comprise less than 2 percent of the national population, and have for years defied the laws of political gravity by earning like the wealthiest of America's voters and voting like the most disadvantaged ones. Why then are both parties focused upon them?

First, Jews are known for participating actively in civic affairs. They vote with their pocketbooks before Election Day, contributing heavily to political campaigns, and they vote in reliable numbers on election day, with as many as 80 percent of eligible Jewish voters turning out at the polls. In a close election where both money and votes count heavily, a small number of Jews can make a very large difference.

Second, Jews are geographically concentrated. Some 85 percent of them live in just 20 metropolitan areas. Winning votes in those areas is critical to any presidential candidate's election prospects. In 2004, even a small shift of Jewish votes to the Republican Party in states like Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania could spell the difference between a clear Electoral College majority for Bush and another election cliffhanger.

Third, pundits believe that the Jewish vote is up for grabs. As the American Jewish community grows wealthier, more suburban, more deeply rooted in America, and more estranged from liberal critics of Israeli policy, Jewish voters -- so the argument goes -- are growing restless. They do not want either party to take their votes for granted. Already, conservative politicians have captured the majority of Jewish voters in England and Israel, as well as in some local races in the United States.

Knowing this, both parties have now redoubled their efforts to win Jewish votes in 2004. Republicans are counting on the president's strong stance on fighting terror and his unwavering support for Israel to win Jews over. They scored particularly well at the annual meeting of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee last May. There, Bush explicitly linked "the freedom and prosperity and security of Israel," to "serving the cause of America." Privately, Israel's representatives tell Jewish audiences that Bush has been the "best president ever" as far as Israel is concerned. They worry aloud that a US withdrawal from Iraq, under John Kerry, would embolden terrorists and pose a danger to Israel's very existence.

http://www.beliefnet.com/includes/v3/edPop.html

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wow.....long post.

I have wondered the same thing. I don't know that Jews will flock to the Ruthug side. Too many of us know that they want us for one reason! But, when we hear comments that throw suspicion on every Jewish Democrat as being an arm of the "neocons," it gets pretty insulting. American Jews are interested in the safety of Israel, but crap like "we are just interested in sacrificing American soldiers and dollars for Israel" can really get the dander up.

Israel, like all countries, have some serious problems. But, not all Jews are allied with Israel BEFORE the US. Since I am not overly familiar with all of the Israeli government, but it is my understanding that many Israelis are as angry with their government as we are with ours.

I certainly support liberal polices and Jews were big in the civil rights movement, but we can only take so much abuse, before we start to look for other places to spend our money. It is a tricky place we are in, for sure.

If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq we would not be doing this,’ he said. ‘The leaders of the Jewish community are influentialenough that they could change the direction of where this is going and I think they should.’”

http://www.amenusa.org/iraq26.htm

He was repudiated pretty quickly from all sides for that comment, and deserved to be.

of my friends is a college professor, a gay man and an attorney who defends really difficult cases involving child pornography - yet he has voted twice for Bush. Simply I think it comes down to the perceived support of Israel by the Bush Administration combined with some discomfort with the Left vis a vis both Israel and, increasingly, Jewish people in general - as we can see, unfortunately, right here on DU. That smarts. And I hate to say it but it might be losing us votes.

On the other hand I think a lot of people like me are concerned that Dubya's attack on Iraq, which had been stable before - if not a great friend to Israel or to the M.E. in general - at least wasn't a terrorist haven - may in the long run prove deleterious to Israel, the stability of the M.E. as a whole and is spilling over into antisemitism in general. People hate this war and it's having some dreadful unforeseen consequences, such as people here and abroad looking at pictures of things blowing up in Baghdad and associating them with the I/P situation - ironically, even as the I/P situation shows great signs of hope for progress. So as much as Bush can talk about supporting Israel I hope thoughtful people see that his policies are actually quite self-serving, based on the interests of the oil industry, and continue voting Democratic.

Having said that, I think the Sharansky idea of democracy in the M.E., which Bush has adopted apparently, has attractive points - and it certainly is putting Democrats in a bind. If democracy can work in the M.E. it could be a great thing. This would be embarrassing for us Bush haters:)

However, democracy merely means, rule by the many - it does not mean "good and stable government." And the removal of strong leaders - Saddam for example - can lead to chaos. In a potentially volatile situation such as Syria, in which Islamist extremists have political power, the removal of a dictator would not necessarily lead to a good situation for anybody, at least until people have become less demonstrably hostile to secularism and Western ideas. I think some people have voted for Bush because they like the idea of spreading democracy throughout the M.E., hoping that would bring greater happiness and participation in government and the local economies, but the success of that outcome would depend upon a strong showing by educated, secular men and women. And I'm not at all sure, having read about the pro-Syrian demonstrations in Lebanon today, that this would be the case.

It's a complex problem. I don't personally see the Orthodox growing enormously in number nor do I see that much more assimilation occurring. People need to be awake right now - they might feel assimilated but I'm beginning to think there's actually a lot of hostility toward Jews and assimilation is actually a pretty one-sided thing. And I do NOT see Jewish people going Republican on social issues - ever.

I'm certain that Middle East policy is a factor in the increase in American Jewry's Republican voting.

which specific policy are you referring to ??

I suspect that the events (read: wars and anti-arab sentiments) that have followed from 9/11 have made some of the more hawkish Zionists more sympathetic to Republicans.

I hasten to re-stress the phrase "some of the more hawkish."

Maybe I should have just shut up to begin with, I *do* feel uncomfortably close to I/P territory here.

we are discussing the factors that have influenced 7% more American jews voting for bush in2004 than 2000.

I believe israels war on terror and its parallels to americas WOT played a role.

I steer WIDE clear of that forum, the flaming in there messes me up, perhaps I'm hypersensitve to it.

Yes, I think that the Repubs' ability during election season to define themselves as the valiant terror warriors swayed many Jewish votes.

all that different when it comes to Middle East policy - not in regard to Iran, not in regard to Syria, not in regard to Iraq, and not in regard to Israel.

The two are generally pretty close when it comes to US foreign policy, except regarding global warming and, to a degree, multilateralism.

I am of course speaking of the politicians, not of the party members.

in the 2004 election by 7% ?? ...esp., if as you sy the ME policy is not that different.

as well as an end, at least a partial one, to the acceptance of anti-Semitism in establishment circles.

At the moment we have a Republican "President" who is known for his support from fundamentalist Christians - and yet still there are very many Jews that are part of his administration.

Merely considering the economic situation of American Jews, if one were to make an estimate as to their votes, they would probably be highly Republican, certainly more than they are now. As the social issues that separate most American Jews from the Right change from crucial ones - religious freedom for instance - to ones where Jews are less monolithic - gay rights and abortion - I think the shift makes some sense. This is evidenced by the tendency of Orthodox Jewish organizations to side with the fundamentalist Christians on such issues.

Jews, as a group, are successful economically, but in the past it has not made any difference in how they vote (they voted largely against both Reagan as well). They have consistantly voted democratic in large numbers, because the social issues (civil rights, seperation of church and state) motivated most to do so, as did economic issues.

I seriously think this mostly has to do with how many view the world in a post 9/11 environment. This isn't about American Jews in particular, though I do believe to some extent, some of them view things differently now.

It's mostly about perception imo. This may be straying into I/P territory but unfortunately I think some have been convinced that the only way to be a supporter of Israel is to give a green light to Sharon and the Likud's disasterous policies.

This is both wrong and dangerous. By abandoning the Clinton policy of involvement and any interest in acheiving peace, this administration has made Israel more unsafe in the long run. I seriously doubt the perception of Israel in the ME has changed, and while I'm sure the anomosity will exist for many years to come (due to both the unwillingness and inability of ME nations to recognize Israel's right to exist and Israel's occuption of the WB), the only way to achieve any lasting peace is through meaningful dialogue and involvement by the US. The US is a friend of Israel and will remain so, but as a friend it must be willing and able to criticize it. Granted, this administration isn't a friend of anyone.

Whatever changes occuring in the ME are not due to Bush, but mostly have been in the happening. People would be stupid to fall for it, but with the media in the state it is, can you expect anything else (hell even people on this thread believe Bush had something to do with the Lebabanon thing).

The repukes have made an effort through the RR to use Israel as a reason to get Jews voting for them. Some unfortunately seem to have fallen for it. I think it's a foolish idea to make friends with the likes of Pat Robertson or trust them. Ultimately, the RR has made it clear - they care not about peace in Israel, but only a place where Jesus can come back - and then all the Jews will convert in masse - or die.

to Bush this time -- on the Israel issue alone. I just couldn't convince them. Somehow they thought blivet** was good for Israel and Kerry bad -- as if! My mother was really torn until the very end -- she didn't like either of them, but settled on Bush, probably due to my father's influence.

My brother and sister both live in Israel, but since they are still citizens, they voted and they both supported blivet** strongly.

Judging from the Detroit Jewish News during the election, there were a lot of Jews voting for blivet**. Every week there were dueling ads and lists of supporters and blivet**'s list looked bigger. There was an organization called Jews for Bush that had a lot of ads as well. Pretty scary stuff -- I just don't understand it.

However, I think that the poison of conservatism has infected our body politic. Jews are not the only group to see numbers swing to the GOP side.

I was appalled by the number of gays that supported and continue to support the idiot in the office! I mean...talk about voting against yourself!

I know it is trite...but 9-11 did change things...and not for the better! Instead of looking at ourselves as a world force, we focused on our victim-hood. Don't misunderstand me, what happened that day was unforgivable! It was a crime against the human race and those responsible, including those that did nothing to stop it, are guilty of high crimes! However, people in this country became more xenophobic, anti-Arab, anti-Semitic, and bigotry was given a new breath of life. It fanned the flames of hate in this country like never before. I have noticed, even as we export jobs, this country is becoming more isolationist.

Now, this may be totally off the mark, but it just struck me. Perhaps, some Jews are swinging right in the "patriotism" sweep, so that they don't end up on the wrong end of the spectrum? The last time of overwhelming patriotism in a "war ravaged" country, it didn't fare well for our people (and many others). Could this be a reason for a "right" swing?

Personally, I hope the trend stops and Jews will not "bleed out" of the party. We shall see how this election cycle progresses.

The criminal war in Iraq is no longer Bush's war, or the neocons' war, but the Jews' war. Nevermind that most Jews despise Bush and hate this war, we are all going to get blamed in the end for the stupidity of the rightwingers among us.

Anti-semitism doesn't care whether one is an observant or non-observant Jew, a pro-settlements or anti-settlements Jew, straight or gay Jew.

began. That it would all turn to shit and the Jews would get blamed. He's smarter than I thought.

But I have wondered whether the reason * has put so many Jews into highly visible positions in his administration is so that if the war turned out badly, they'd have a scapegoat ready.

Tucker

of their support for vouchers and their no questions asked stance toward Israel.

I also think assimilation may play a factor. As Jews move further and further away from their immigrant roots they forget the sacrifices made by the immigrant generation. It used to be said that Jews lived like Episcopalians but voted like Puerto Ricans. With the increased support for Bush and the pugs it appears that some Jews live and vote like Episcopalians.

but we didn't live all that well! (Know what you mean, though, Bush Sr. Episcopalian, not underpaid university-professor Episcopalian!) My parents voted on the far left of the dial, too--McCarthy, McGovern, Anderson.

i saw the stats in a Jewish paper in a temple in L.A. posted with an article about the Jewish repuke party at a swanky hotel where they all cheered at the election results.
These were the movers and shakers of Hollywood whose only ties to Judism my be thier last names.It really hits a nerve because neocons have played the Christian card so well and some very big neocons are Jewish by birth and use the mid east as a talking point and excuse to further thier game.

I've told this story on other threads so some may have already heard it. I (along with a large contingent of my family) was in San Francisco during the build up to the Iraq war and there was a large anti-war rally planned. We were all very excited that this was something we could do as a family and to show the young ones that getting involved was very important. As we approached - one of the first things we saw was a big sign where the Star of David was replaced with a swastica.

We had three generations among us - here we were trying to make a stand and instead we had to turn around and explain to 8, 10 and 13 year olds what was going on. It was heartbreaking.

I have no worries about anyone in my family voting pub but I can certainly understand some Jews not wanting to be part of a party that compares Israel to Nazis. It's an absurd comparison but it's out there as we all know.

The extreme left has often/frequently? crossed the line into anti-semitism.....

which has not gone unnoticed...perhaps even by the 7% more that voted for bush.

that are still some people around with the tattoos who may not appreciate the sentiment. I have no problem with people criticizing the Israeli government (not a huge Sharon fan myself)but I think groups like ANSWER are hurting their own cause by engaging in hyperbole.

...torwards Palestinian. But to utter Nazi in the same sentence is plain wrong and a monstrous injustice to Israel and Holocaust victims.

I have an orthodox Jewish friend who is going to graduate school in Sao Paulo, Brazil and his complaint was that the left in Brazil was alienating the Jews by comparing Jews to Nazis.

He was very upset that every bulletin board on campus had a flyer (for an anti-war demonstration) with a picture of the campus rabbi with a swastica tatooed to his forehead calling him a Nazi. He was very upset because it was a big injustice and hurtful but he realized that the attitude was moved by ignorance. He has been harassed several times when wearing his kippah just because of the I/P situation!

I wish there was an easy way to tell these people that to compare Jews to the Nazi is not only wrong but it is also hurtful to the victims of Nazi tyranny and it will only alienate a group of people who could be working on their side. I wished people realized that!

at all - which is disturbing. It's only been a few short decades and there are REAL Nazis re-emerging, both in Europe and in the States. Confusing a rabbi with a Nazi is beyond amazing.

BTW I hope this observation isn't off topic but I'm concerned about said Nazis and their potential to create terrorist acts in the US. While we're busy chasing Muslims around, the Nazis can buy arms, explosives, move freely throughout our society. Just after the Oklahoma City bombing everybody was blaming the Arabs and it turned out to be homegrown terrorism. And these people feel empowered by the "election" of Bush. I saw some of their comments online, unfortunately, in 2000 and it freaked me out.

IMO all of these phenomena are related to a growing sense, in America and perhaps in other Western nations, that we've lost our creativity, our ability to direct events and build our societies. Is it possible a similar malaise led to the great wars of the 20th century? Needless to say, scapegoating of Jews was a dreadful feature then as well.

I can't remember his name, but it was on "Day to Day." He was saying that most of the hate groups in the United States now are mainly targeting Jews. They blame us for everything, even completely unrelated social issues, such as gay rights.

This was most surprising, he said, because even the KKK, which traditionally concentrates on blacks, has started to concentrate mainly on Jews.

A head of one of these organizations sent a mass e-mail to members expressing an admiration for the perpetrators of 9-11 because "anyone who will fly an airplane into a building to kill Jews can't be that bad."

The entire piece was very unnerving.

10 years ago and we kind of thought she was paranoid - now she seems clairvoyant. Said throughout history - this is what happens.

I do not intend to "badmouth" DU. I feel this is a great place for others to come together. However, some of the things you are saying are openly expressed here! Some are nothing more than disrupters, but some are quite established and entrenched here. In the I/P room, a comparison like you are describing will usually get wiped out pretty quickly. However, in other forums, statements like that will be up for awhile. I have alerted on a few.

This is what really pisses me off. Some here will "protest" the actions of the Israeli government. I have no issue with that at all. But, then they start in on the "Nazi comparison" route, and when their posts gets deleted, they wail and moan how their voice is being stifled! I don't think there is some razor thin area between protesting Israeli actions and anti-Semitism, they are two different issues....HOWEVER, it seems some cannot distinguish the two!

Some are convinced that all the woes of the Middle East lie at the feet of Israel. Somehow all of the hate in that area, the wars, the terrorism are all because she exists, and therefore, are her problems. People try to boil down the ME situations into a very simple scenario, when the fact is it is very, very complicated.

And the moderators do an awesome job keeping the peace here. At least it is easier to get our message across and show people that these comparisons are unfair and incorrect. Perhaps this way people will question their reason for saying these things.

I understand Jews and Arabs having passion for the subject and obviously picking a side. But I find it amazing that the rest can so easily choose a side in this conflict and feel so passionate about it when the situation is extremely complicated.

and question their motives - whether they're simply standing up for the underdog or if they have some issues they weren't even aware of? There's so much, it's just part of the culture, people aren't even aware of what they're thinking half the time, IMO. It's like the Ali G skit in the redneck bar, which was hilarious but - horrifying!

Being in Okla-Hell-ma, DU serves as a life-line for me! And, the moderators do a very good job with scrapping some hateful posts. But, there is still an undercurrent of hate (?) toward Israel, and this sometimes leads to anti-Semitic posts. Take a look in the LBN and GD at some of the current threads. The amount of ignorance about the ME conflicts is astonishing! But, somehow, Israel gets the blame, usually within just a few posts. Without saying it, some posters 'think' the tiny nation of Israel controls the US government leading to that old piece of bullshit..."Jews run the world!" Just my thoughts.

forum at all. Rather I think we should expand it, to include Middle East issues in general. It's really impossible and totally unproductive to even discuss I/P without discussing the Middle East as a whole.

Having said that, I agree with you in principle about the difference between antisemitism and critizing Israeli policy. I'm sure many of us are mad at right wing Israelis also. However, I am beginning to think much of the criticism of Israel, not just here but "out there", is coming from an antisemitic mindset and not the other way around. In other words, the old demon hasn't ever really died - it's just been impolite to discuss it - until recently.

Put it another way: given the violence, complexity and geopolitical sensitivity of the ME, do you think all this attention - there or in the US - would be paid to Israel if she was just another Levantine nation and not Jewish? Would this one element in a stew of aggravation and volatility be taking the blame for the whole schmear? I do not think so and that makes me very very nervous.

You?

What always amazes me is that the mention of ANY Middle East situation will warrant at least one post about Israel, and not a flattering one!

I don't know whether to say I am glad or not, but I feel the same way you do about..."I am beginning to think much of the criticism of Israel, not just here but "out there", is coming from an antisemitic mindset and not the other way around. I am glad that I am not the only who thinks this, but sad because I think it may be real.

My thought is that if Israel were to conceded all lands and release all prisoners, guilty or not, people would STILL hate Israel, and find other things to blame on her. It is just sad.

My thought is that if Israel were to conceded all lands and release all prisoners, guilty or not, people would STILL hate Israel, and find other things to blame on her. It is just sad.

True, and I will also add that even if we were to have a comprehensive peace settlement in the Middle East, you will still have people that would want nothing more than the total obliteration of the State of Israel, just as you would have people on our side that would hate those of us that supported the peace settlement.

We have to accept things the way the are, recognizing that America is not immune to anti-Semitism either. For example, last night they had a woman supporter of nazi/racist Matt Hale on TV. She started to babble about the JDL being responsible for the murder of Judge Lefkow's husband and mother. She ended her interview by saying that the two suspects in the sketch the police had released looked Jewish. She was never challenged by the interviewer!

From "the Case for Israel" by Alan Dershowitz...(and i'm paraphasing)

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So long as criticism is comparative, contextual, and fair, it should be encouraged, not discouraged. But when the Jewish state is the only one criticized for faults that are far worse among other nations, such criticism crosses the line from fair to foul, from acceptable to anti-Semitic.
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This is often the case here and out there.

For some reason groups like ANSWER never mentions the repression and violence in the countries surrounding israel......let alone the medieval treatment of women.

very civilized compared to some of the stuff "out there". For example I ran across a thread on Yahoo, that was appended to an article about the Hezbollah demonstration in Lebanon. One genius says he doesn't understand why we support Israel since "the whole world hates them."

AAAARRRGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I'm sure they'd be real happy under a Hezbollah administration:)

Because of the ties and relationships you mention. So, it does end up being a defacto forum for ME events either because people post them there, or because they are moved there for their relationship.



Even if it were demographically the same as, let's say, Lebanon, it would still be at the forefront. Remember it was the cradle of three major religions, and near the cross-roads of Asia/Europe/Africa. Even before the first Aliyah, the Western powers at the time were heavily involved in Ottoman politics as part of a desire to control the destiny of Jerusalem. It was one of the major reasons for the Crimean War in 1854.

However, this is a good time to stop as the line is now getting over into I/P.

L-

What had happened was the Palistinians had organized and kind of stolen the march .I talked to some of the people and had some signs taken down,we felt very bad about what had happened and alot of people had thier feelings hurt that day.
It was one of those days where we had to work alot harder.At the stage things were about to errupt about who would speak ,things were disorganized .There were meetings afterwards to patch things up,the interfaith group came to the rescue once again.
I am sorry you were offended,alot of us were and hopefully that day will never be repeated.My wife's job was trying to keep peace in the peace movement ,something i think we jews do well,we have been doing for thousands of years,it's very hard now more than ever.That day we needed some Jewish Duers to pull things together

in a Rust Belt City with a Jewish population of over 55,000---

"Busing To Achieve Racial Balance" - that was when the number of Jewish Republicans jumped, and the Jewish Republicans veered to the right.

The School Board flat out eliminated 25% of the "seats" in the shtetl - Davis and Wightman - and played games with the "Magnet Schools" - Park Place and Regent Square -- and turned the "neighborhood high school" into a hell hole - Allderdice.

The Republican Candidates went from "Moderates" to "Conservatives" -- and actually drew votes. Nixon's "Souhern Strategy" played well in the Northern Cities.

I am "Politically Incorrect" - I call it as I see it. And the perception at Forbes and Murray Avenues was that the shtetl -14th Ward - carried the entire integration burden. And the Repugs fanned that with a wdge issue candidate.

affirmative action. My father, who is the most liberal man I know, definitely splits from the party on this issue. He remembers when quotas were used to keep the Jews Out of medical and law schools and it's a sore subject to him.

I too split from the party when it comes to AA.

Affirmative Action is insidious in my opinion . I believe in what MLK said....judge each person not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

Perhaps is the anti-religion bias one sees among many of our "liberal" friends, and their lack of respect for people that adhere to religion-based ethics and morals.

Need I mention the way Rabbi Marc Gellman, or you drdon, were savaged for daring to resist the herd instinct in a recently concluded euthanasia case.

I think the "anti-religion" bias is more of an issue here at DU, than on the national stage. While I cannot speak for everyone, I feel that many people are not biased against religion, but rather religion being used for public policy.

As for the Schiavo tragedy, I feel there may have been some "religious" disagreements, but for me and many others, it was about privacy rights and had little or nothing to do with religion.

As the saying goes, "your rights end where my nose begins." That, in my mind, includes using religion to infringe upon my rights as a citizen.

Everytime one hears Israel, Jews, and oil lumped together, I dare say that the bias extends far beyond DU.

theres an explanation for that....its called ANTI-SEMITISM.

And who organized those anti-war protests ?

by people with a totally different agenda. Peace in the Middle East does not mean the destruction of the State of Israel. Unfortunately there are those that advocate precisely that. Oh, they won't come out and say so directly. They will sugar coat their words making themselves sound reasonable, but at the core of their message one finds the same old anti-Semitic shit.

Funny that those that defend the UN when it comes to the resolutions they agree with, will savage the UN for establishing the State of Israel, then they turn around and blame Israel for daring to survive the 1948 war.

the "those" you refer to that peddle that "anti-semitic shit" are frequently part of the extrme left wing.

And youre right...they thinly veil their anti-semitism.

I find it interesting that people will point out that Israel has defied all these UN proclamations; yet, they will not point out that Israel is the ONLY country that cannot serve on the Security Council because it is not a member of a "regional" group. Israel should be a part of the Asia group, but is constantly voted against membership. This year, Israel was asked to join the European group, but as a "standing" member, which mean it is on probation for two years (no Security Council) and must reapply each four years. I also find it interesting that there are no "condemnations" of ANY of the aggressions AGAINST Israel. This is a GREAT link Myths & Facts Online -- The United Nations.

the UN passed a resolution,as usual , against Israel for the deaths of palestinian children.

Israel tried to get the same resolution , WITH THE SAME WORDS, against pal. terrorism against israeli children and the UN wouldnt even hear it.

It is telling. That site (and I pulled up the UN resolutions page to 'double check') is very eye-opening.

It was discussed in detail in the I/P forum at the time it happened, and from what I recall it was a tit-for-tat bit of diplomatic nonsense. Israel voted against the first resolution which was about Palestinian children, and the rest after that was totally predictable....

Violet...

Perhaps there was some 'tit-for-tat' as that would not be unheard of when these issues emerge. However, I have poured over UN SC resolutions and I never found one condemnation of ANY Arab nation when they acted first against Israel. More often than not, resolutions against Israel are very lop-sided. Even when the US stands with Israel, it sometimes works against both nations. Again, we see allegations of Israel "controlling" the US. Some say it is the government in which they take exception, but the more reading that is done about it, anti-Semitism often creeps into the conversations.

However, even if what you are saying is true (and I am not saying it isn't), it really still says something; the cards are stacked against Israel. If the wording is the same and the actions were the same, why was one group given a condemnation and the other group "let off the hook?"

I thought not, so my apologies if I'm crossing the I/P line here. The resolutions weren't SC resolutions, they were GA ones. And last time I checked SC resolutions don't have a line at the top saying: 'State To Be Condemned Today Is....' That's not how they work. They use wording that tends to go along the lines of 'expressing grave concern' etc. But not condemnation. And I suspect most resolutions that would be seen as being aimed at Israel deal with the occupation, which makes me think that if there was no occupation, Israel would be pretty much forgettable when it comes to resolutions....

I don't know if the wording was the same for both GA resolutions as I never was able to track them down. I also wasn't aware that a resolution calling for the protection of Palestinian children wasn't really that, but a condemnation of Israel. If any of the parties had been sincere in giving a toss about children caught up in the conflict, then there should have been one resolution addressing ALL children caught up in the conflict, rather than this petty tit-for-tat stuff that happened...

Violet...

It's not that I want to stifle you (or me), but we may be dancing to close to the I/P situation and I don't want this thread 'banished.' There are many good concerns on this thread and if it were to go to the "other" place, it will be locked per those forum rules.

I will say this...we will get to discuss this at some point in the other room, perhaps!

So with that...welcome to the Jewish forum...I look forward to seeing other posts from you. And, you know we will cross....paths...in another room! :)

I'm having a lazy Sunday morning so far, but when I liven up a bit I might go dig up the old thread I remember on that topic so I can refresh my memory on it and PM it to you so you can have a read of it..

Thanks for the welcome, btw. Talking of crossing paths, you crossed my path quite a few times in GD yesterday, and each time you deserved huge kudos for what you were saying..

Cheers

Violet..

...that sometimes you can disagree with people on one thing and not another and still be able to be civil to one another (even when passions are high). :) Check your PM.

Have a nice lunch!

Perhaps we are both being too broad. I do not think anti-Christian bias extends out into the national level (there are a few exceptions, Catholics get a raw deal sometimes).

And I am going to say this, and I hope you see it, for it may be deleted, but many on the liberal left are ANTI-SEMITES! The fact that one cannot even put the word "Israel" in a sentence without it getting 'banished' to the I/P forum says ALOT to me. I know some criticize the policies and I can appreciate that. I don't like everything happening here in the US.

So, let's say it is not "anti-religious" beliefs that infect our party, it is anti-Semitism. Hell, check out the posts about Lieberman or even his wife, within 10 posts some "snide" anti-Jewish comment will emerge. Some even fly under the radar. Wait, even better...search "Jewish group proposal" in the archives of GD. There were 160 posts, and almost 1/3rd were deleted!!! Trust me, I am well aware of what people think of Jews.

How's this?:

It's the Jews! The Jews! They are profiting from the war!

The above is not a verbatim quote, except for the "it's the Jews" part. This came from a labor activist that hated Bush and the war, a member of my union local.

This war is for O-I-L. The "I" stands for Israel!

Those are the words uttered by a well-known peace activist at a peace rally in my home town. The fact that he said it during his public remarks, makes it even more obnoxious than the "It's the Jews" which was literally shouted to my face.

The sad thing, I have seen that here too. Sometimes, I feel backed into a corner, because I will see something as anti-Semetic, but if I voice that opinion, I am told that "I am just criticizing Israel." I have even seen a post (that is still around) that states "Israel has the US by the nose-ring." Now, that COULD BE a comment about the government, but to me, I read..."Jews run the world's most powerful country." It is a fine line, and personally, I fell many push it as far as they can!

great post.

You are right...the extreme left wing ...sadly...has an anti-religion bias, especially ONE particular religion.

but certainly, there is an disgusting level of anti-Semitism and irrational bias against Israel among some of the radical left. One example coming to mind is that Israel is responsible for the atrocities of the US, especially regarding Iraq, and the similar assertion that the Israeli/Zionist lobby (sometimes referred to as the "Jewish lobby", further illustrating the point) somehow has magical control over the US government.

occasions recently when I thought, shoot, I've wandered into the Ignoramus Underground website:)

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks there's some antisemitism here on the Left.

What can we do? I have been trying to write, to reason and argue civilly, but this is such an old and ugly demon one feels helpless and dismayed.

Indeed, I find myself arguing on behalf of Jews and Israel, in my dreams!

Also I am dismayed at the Columbia decision, and the fact that people will use the publication of a book arguing against Dershowitz' "Case for Israel" as an excuse for further Israel-bashing/antisemitism. As if an argument, or a book, could "prove" or "disprove" something like the Holocaust, or the need for a people to have a home where they won't continually be dealing with everything from insults to violence, could be summed up in legalese!

I'm frustrated.

I'll confess something else: if I think the Democratic Party is becoming a home for bigots, I will leave it.