So, why have you stopped posting in the Feminist forum?

This is a poll I've wanted to post for a while, to address our declining forum activity in the last year.

I think; There are those who post to only specific topics, or perhaps specific posters, there are those who have left, Those who lurk. Those who figure it's useless to even have a feminist forum as DU is hostile to feminists. Those who are out there fighting the good fight, not wanting to be stuck in a 'dungeon' Those who think the topics are trite, or meaningless. There is one poster who stated elsewhere some time ago she "quit posting in the feminist forum" because of language arguments. (bitch wars) There are those who have been used abused and are simply and purely, angry.

DU is a habit with me. Feminism is a passion.

Personally I have little interest in discussion feminism with DU in general, because I've observed most have not a clue what feminism is. Not. A. Clue. When we have to start with basic definitions, and fight against gross misconceptions I get irritated--to say the least.

What I'd like to believe, in my heart of hearts, is that there are one or two budding feminists out there, who stumble on this site, this forum and find a place where even if they don't post, they get a little relief, a little information and a little direction---a different way of looking at the world.

The very young women (nurses)I work with almost never call themselves feminists, but they agree with nearly ever one of my often stated opinions---which I find endlessly fascinating---- ("I love you! You're my favorite woman's libber type!!" One lovely young women actually exclaimed enthusiastically. She and I share a love of vulgar language and calling bullshit on bullshit, but jesus, "women's libber"????) A few of the older ones do. A difference of the early 20's and the early 30's. Something I also find facinating, and distrubing.

The women I still know who work the street remain a resource and an inspiration for for me. Sometimes, I post for them.

1. I'm not on DU massive numbers of hours anymore.

2. Many of the people who used to hang out around here aren't here any more.

3. The level of conversation here, even among those of us who are left, has gone down a lot.

4. Persistent sexism, and tolerance for sexism here at DU was bound to take a noticeable toll eventually.

I understand, but feel free to speak up.

I alerted on this last night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=136117#137264

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive and it's not really a thread filled with sickening sexist bullshit.

Anyway... it's just too fucking depressing to think about it, so I just try to avoid the subject altogether if I can.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7521451#7524078

So many who seem to have absolutely no idea what objectification means... or no problem with it, if they do.

So many crass 'jokes' by so many oh-so-clever men about what they'd like to do... as if anyone gives one fraction of a shit. Do they not realize how classless and idiotic they come off? It's as if Howard Stern was a role model to a good portion of DUers.

It just seems pointless... depressing. I'm fighting depression as it is. It'd be good if there was more stuff to post about that was hopeful... like that football guy who lectured other guys on how not to be assholes. Unfortunately those seem to be the tiny minority of things to discuss which relate to feminism. Most of it is crap like that thread.

where did they take a wrong turn. and wrong turn they did. these very men are the ones i hear about having to masturbate all the time cause they cant get a woman. well, duh

i pointed out the sexism and racism with people on a number of ads. women fucking veggies, bush trim ad, kkk, blubber women, and still poster made excuses for all ads and no, there isnt sexism. so what is sexism? then that part of peta thread deleted. but all the bullshit, vrude and vile comments about womans body stood.

how funny is that. how many women laughing at the smell of the vagina jokes. the vulgar and crude is acceptable, mainstream and us women are suppose to what..... feel love? respect? appreciated? valued?

i dont get how the women and young girls listen to men speak so crudely about themselves and dont see disrespect. they dont see the disrespect. they think it means these guys appreciate them. that is the question i have. that is what i dont understand, how these girls can interpret this as positive.

...i'm not at all sure why some seem to need others to approve of their views...of feminism or anything else. :eyes: but that's just me.

recognize, acknowledge, discuss and learn from differing views.

also seeing a thread about liking sex. like 94 posts from differing posters. seems to have run well, interaction and discussion of views.

(...including several i wasn't an active participant in), i saw that for the most part, a variety of views of feminism were expressed and embraced. for some, they had an idea of what feminism was FOR THEM and there was no deviation from that. some posters here were adults, and more than capable of sharing and discussing issues w/out being disparaging and insulting others.

unfortunately, as is the nature of "the web" there will always be those--on either side of any issue that can't simply share or discuss without attacking, insulting, belittling, dismissing and minimizing others. sad but true.

the problems cropped up (imo), when some posters seemed to have a need for other posters to stamp some "feminism seal of approval" on their views and ideas. unfortunately, that wasn't going to happen....no matter how often they attacked, how many ways they found to call people uptight or prudish, flamed, or bullied them.

in my humble opinion, some (people) need to find a way to approve of themselves--for themselves.
they need to stop needing those outside of themselves to endorse them, their habits and points of view. particularly when those seeming to seek approval clearly have contempt for those they so vociferously demanded the approval of.

:crazy:

wish to post a lot when my views are derided.

i think you are very insightful and posts worthwhile. and there is an area i dont agree with you. but, i dont post on your good posts to give you a thumbs up cause of the hostility.

why i say that, is on the computer you get so very little info. and one head on collision can leave a perception that is not necessarily reality. how would you know that the strong majority of your posts have made me chuckle, or made me want to say right on? you dont. maybe the derision you feel is maybe not exactly all you think it is.

:)

...in my opinion, people who don't give a shit what others think of their views, simply don't give a shit.

there are no demands that others agree with them. people who don't care, don't insist that others need to agree with them, or support their positions. they simply state their views, see that others disagree, and move on.

taking the time to say one doesn't care what others think, isn't equivalent to actually not caring.

so it doesnt give me a sense of safe space or community, so i dont post

make of that what you will. i dont really care for random internet personalities who i cant create a sense of community with

:eyes:

with this forum. I, for one, an interested in what those views might be.

I'm not sure what "monolithic view of feminism" means.

i guess if not feeling comfortable or safe, then wouldnt discuss with me why you arent feeling comfortable or safe.

what is the issue with that?

I did an experiment one time, using certain words. I had noticed that people who want attention, or who want flame wars use certain topics, words, or implications. I wanted to try it. I'll just say that one of the operative words was "douchebag". It was NOT a thread I started. My experiment was a success. We had people coming out of the woodwork (several have since been tombstoned) to fuck with the poor little feminist forum. One of only 'flame wars' we've ever had.

I've seen unpleasant comments, outside of here, directed to participants, seemingly without provocation. Many of those posters have simply left. Not fun to be stalked on DU or anywhere.

for me to truly understand some people just dont do confrontation. literally could not wrap my mind around it. the more ones does, the more we know that there is always the possibility of being heard. and understood. maybe not agreed with, but that is ok too.

then again, there are some posters i have learned to not even respond to. i have no one on ignore, but i know the posts are the most outrageous, just to argue for sake of argue. i dont do that

i have really appreciated, and i really value quite a few men that i end up talking to in pm, and being able to better understand one another. that has been the most fun.... in allowing confrontation.

I don't use the ignore function, I just ignore people. There's one poster I NEVER ever agree with on gender issues, but I find myself agreeing with him on other issues, such as the prevalence of racism. I used to get into interesting PM discussions with one poster about porn, we didn't agree, but we did find a certain common ground surprisingly.

I don't find Internet confrontation very satisfying. I'm in a motherfuckers face right away in real life if needs be. On-line, one has to be more circumspect, which leads to a lot of passive aggressive bullshit, or 'snark'. It's hard to discuss certain topics sometimes. Also, some folks are just out of there rabbit-assed minds.

A small feminist forum like this isn't going to generate a whole lot of responses unless the topics are controversial. Certain 'feminists' think prostitution/sex work is somehow 'empowering' for instance. Certain feminists have poor filters when it comes to widening the circle to topics that include racism and classim and end up sounding like classist racists. When there isn't enough discussion of ideas, people just move on, or get pissy, then move on, and talk shit elsewhere.

A lot of it is the human condition, and human beings need to up their emotional intelligence quota with a quickness.

...that i recently had to take into consideration, (as i just didn't think about this...)

how frequent some post while under the influence (i.e. drinking, smoking, pills, etc.). that probably makes for some's off the wall (seemingly bat shit crazy) posts.

Of course it's hard to determine, but a tell tale is widely differing types of posts, crazy one time, coherent the next.

Very angry or pathologically self absorbed people are hard to communicate with as well.;)

That sucked.

called on every little thing I wrote by certain posters.

I feel there is a 'divide and conquer' tactic working here. Young v. old. Straight v. gay.

Black/Brown v. white.

My most loved heroines are Shirley Chisholm, Barbara Jordan and Bella Abzug. So, I'm old. Big fucking deal...but I don't appreciate the insinuation that old is bad and worthless.

None of the groups mentioned above should be made to feel bad...

I prefer going to I Blame the Patriarchy where Feminism is Radical Feminism and everyone is on the same page...for the most part.

I remember when the young were the ones who were made to feel worthless...since their wisdom hadn't kicked in yet.

And I don't mind being called a Women's Libber....it shows that I lived that period of history and damn straight I believe in Women's Liberation. I want women to flee from their cages of societal pressure to be cute, wear high heels, be eye candy, to secure a man, to have children....Freedom to be what YOU want.

i have agreed with all you say. i might even disagree.... aggressively. cause i do that some times, lol. i dont remember. but i enjoy when you jump in on threads.

i am going to check out the site you put up. thanks.

and with the groups... experiences in each of those groups are different. perspective. time in the field. all that shifts views. what i thought at 20 is vastly different than what i see today. the nifty about it is hearing those different perspectives to learn and understand, and to do it respectfully is the funnest, though also the challenge.

Once a women's libber, always a women's libber! Yay us!

(And I think it was interesting that the young woman mentioned in another post said that -- that she even knew the term and used it positively.)

I don't get your comments about age, though -- it's always seemed to me that more negative commentary here (including in this thread) is directed toward the behaviours and attitudes of younger women rather than older. Entirely justifiably, per me! I may know what you're talking about though, but I'd say it's not the dominant thread in this forum, and in fact is the one that feels itself unwelcome, that "sex positive" jive.

I don't keep enough track of personalities on internet boards to know who I'm supposed to like or not like or agree with or disagree with, most of the time. So I don't know what category you/I might fall into here. ;)


Rather than maunder on for more than one post, I'll just add here that I did vote: loss of interest in DU. Not being in the US, it holds a certain interest as a window into your world and an opportunity to read and interact with interesting - and interested - people there. I will not be the first to say that their numbers have declined sharply and the pointless-opinion-spewing factor has risen to the point that looking for pearls among the trash was just too time-consuming and boring.

None of which applies to the Feminists Forum!

when exploring thought and idea.... asking question to understand, addressing a concept that does not intellectually work.... how can one address the issue without sounding or seeming to be negative.

i am really interested in the young gals perception of feminism, yet there are contradictions to the argument that have to be put forth. thought that has to be expressed in order to know where someone is coming from.

i would truly like for the young girls to discuss the posts i have made, and i tried to put it as sensitively as i possibly can. but i do not know how to not say anything in order to not offend when exploring a topic and actually have conversation. i also dont know how to understand without conversation

(i have been thinking about this)

if females of all ages are confident and secure then wouldnt questions and differing opinion not be taken so personally. only a matter of expressing and exploring? not attack. and would it be necessary to pretext all comments with, not to be snarky, not to attack, i like sex.... ect.

Heh. When I referred to negative commentary on younger women's attitudes and behaviour -- I did mean the negative commentary is entirely warranted! Yes, we can understand why they behave so appallingly and have such moronic ideas, but their behaviour is still appalling and their ideas still moronic. And no, not all younger women! (I wonder how deep I can spiral with this one ...) You know what I mean, because I was agreeing with you! ;)

As for "not attack" -- how about "challenge"? Why would/should anyone think that anything they do or say in public is not / should not be open to challenge?

I know lots of people are not comfortable with / skilled at dealing with challenge. Their positions may be entirely defensible, in the minds of reasonable people of goodwill, say, but they may not be able to mount the defence themselves. Or their positions may not be defensible at all, but they may be unable (yet) to grasp the whys and wherefores.

I just wish people in that position would get used to saying something like "I see what you're saying, and I will think about it", instead of whining "I'm entitled to my opinion and you're mean" or mounting a counterattack on personal grounds, for instance.

If two people genuinely hold irreconcilable opinions, so be it. On things that are important to me, like the issues that arise here, I am likely simply to recognize that I don't like their values and so I don't like them. I mean, it is possible for two people who hold the same values to disagree on a policy matter, say, because their various experience and knowledge and analysis leads them to different conclusions -- if we want to reduce the harms of drug abuse, is it better to decriminalize or not? for example. It's even possible for two people with closely shared values to disagree on the best policy treatment for prostitution. ;)

But I can tell when someone with whom I disagree on a policy matter is also someone with whom I don't share fundamental values. And the two situations lead to two very different conversations.

I'm not one for prefixing remarks. Anybody can say "with all due respect"!

I just discovered this forum not long ago. I consider myself an uninformed feminist -- meaning, I just don't know that much about it, but I know I am a one. Does that make sense? Probably not.

Plus, I am currently taking a class online (on literary criticism) and I am looking forward to the week when we get to feminist criticism. Unfortunately, all the women in there seem very anti-feminist.

What I've found is that women who are anti-feminist,--if there aren't actual religious reasons-- simply don't understand what it is. Anti-feminists tend to think feminism is about not shaving one's legs, making sure women have at least on abortion in their lifetime, banning all forms of pornography (Many feminists like the idea of erotica, but the porn industry makes erotica nearly impossible to find) and never wearing a bra.

It's really rather bizarre, the misinformation that gets spewed by assholes who should know better.

....on both (feminism rocks ;)) and that anti-feminists have a lot of, shall i say.....interesting....misconceptions about what feminism is and isn't.

One of the things I've found to be most disheartening is that most of their misconceptions are based on the ideas of men (some religious, some not). It saddens me that women aren't taking the time to investigate for themselves--what feminism is and isn't. They also don't consider why some men have a vested interest in painting feminism in a negative light, and/or making women believe it is something they should not want to be affiliated with.

no different.

the same people that made liberal a cuss word also made feminism a cuss word. why would we allow ourselves to buy into that.

but so many women don't see that. they can't see it (or refuse to). for them, it's easier to just label feminists as insane conspiracy theorists.......or man haters. :eyes:

I am a sex-positive feminist, and for me, that includes being okay with a woman's choice to participate in sex work. I believe it can be a valid choice; I believe people have the agency to choose that.

I have several close friends who are sex workers, and I feel like a couple posters here personally deride people like them. It's not a majority, but it's enough to make me feel uncomfortable. I also feel like sex workers should be included in the discussion, but I think this forum has scared most of them off. I try to be respectful while debating other feminists, but too often, I find they aren't respectful of me or the people they're talking about.

Also, I find a lack of intersectionality present in the discussions here. We need to be talking about how sexism intersects with racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, and classism. And, apart from some limited discussions on homophobia, we're not.

A prime example of what I consider "doing it wrong" is making arguments for reproductive choice based on reducing the population of people with disabilities. I'm a pro-choice feminist with disabilities, and using nothing but the "deformed babies" argument just turns me off.

Just my two cents here. (So she says, in high-heeled boots and lipgloss.)

i love your posts and have been listening to you for a while

let me ask you, seriously, and without snark. sex positive. do you think that comes out a bet like those that say pro life. i have heard sex positive feminist for a while now. and it seems to be seperating women into groups. those that like sex and those that don't like sex. that seems to be a ready argument if a females argues anything that has to do with the sex world. if a female sees degradation in any form, then she is pointed at not liking sex. one of the attacks about women that we have talked about

to label yourself sex positive is implying the other group is sex negative. suggesting what? that they dont like sex?

the same as the people that manufactured the term pro life. suggesting if you are prochoice then you in fact are what? anti life.

why would you use sex positive female? it just seems like a immediate manner of passive aggressive, snarky attack. (again, discussion here, not to make you feel uncomfortable. i have been wanting to ask this for a while)

thanks in advance.

And yes, I think it is possible to be sex-negative. I'm not saying certain feminists are all "all sex is bad", but there does seem to be an attitude among some that only certain kinds of sex are okay.

It's not meant to attack others. Merely as a way to identify myself and my beliefs.

allowing the world to understand that ya.... we like sex.

is that really who we have to be as women?

A lot of the attitude I see is that yeah, people like sex, but only certain kinds are okay.

I am a firm believer in safe, sane, and consensual sex. I believe that women have agency. I believe that being pro-choice extends to more things than reproductive rights.

I am just stating my own beliefs, not attacking anyone else.

you have put your boundaries on sex. safe, sane (is your sane my sane?), consensual. couldnt someone use the same argument with you. that makes you not really sex positive because you have your own boundaries. another person may not be into safe sex, it will be their price to pay, or not. but is their choice. now you arent telling them that they cant have sex unless it is safe. but you do have your issues with non safe sex. doesnt mean you are sex negative. but another person can say to you, that you only wanting certain kinds of sex. now, if someone said to you, that you are not sex positive, would you see it as a put down in some manner?

that is why to me, this never works. because i may see where certain behavior has potential for harm (as you do with non safe sex) does that make the person sex negative?

and i do appreciate you talking to me about this.

That's my problem with that term as well.

You're right, it's as much of a loaded term as "pro-life", and equally divisive.

is lying ot ourselves. there are so many things today, that states reality is this and society tells us, .... no it is this. and then we are suppose to stupidly go along and buy what is clearly a nontruth. so many things today has us doing it in all parts of our life. this is just another.

of course i am not going to be so stupid as to pretend sex positive is not meant as a put down....

there is no clear definition of the sex positive female
it is used as an insult to the female that disagrees
it is perpetuating a stereotype that has never been valid and was only created to attack feminism as a whole
and most offensive....
why would women have to put in front that they are into sex, for the world. that is really horrendous we would fall into that trap. do men have to say.... oh i like sex, before talking about anything. validate their sexuality.

but the funniest of it all, i have a few teenage girls here and there, that actually have the attitude that they are in the know about sex, and us older women are clueless. in the generation we were raised, we have had three decades of having sex. what in the world is there left that we dont already know about or have experienced. in order for me to actually have a conversation with these gals, must i hand them my three decade list of sexual experience to validate any kind of conversation with them.

it is a flip flop idea of feminism. none of us should have to validate ourselves as women per our sexuality. but this is exactly what the term has created, and exactly the reason why i say instead of women being submissive today by male, they have allowed themselves to become things for males today.... same thing, different approach.

...I have to say I agree. The term is divisive.

what comes across, whether it is intended or not, is that they really believe that feminism and feminists typically don't like sex or support discussions about sex or sexuality.

Where would they get that idea from?

I think people who believe this generally don't have much real exposure to actual feminism. They are calling themselves "sex positive feminists" to distance themselves from some other form of feminists as described by, who?

The men who bash feminists?

If your only real knowledge of feminism is "what you've heard" and a lot of that comes from men who were bashing feminism, then I guess calling yourself a sex-positive feminist sounds pretty good.

And yeah. I don't see eye to eye with them. Which is okay. But I think it's okay to acknowledge the differences within feminism. I mean, many women describe themselves as "eco-feminists" - does that mean they're implying most feminists dislike the environment?

Eco-feminist. Not Ecology positive feminist.

Where there's a positive, there's a negative. No? Yes.

"Environment positive feminist" might do just exactly what you say: "imply most feminists dislike the environment". Which actually isn't what the term "Eco-feminist" is intended to do, you see. It actually identifies a particular approach in terms of analysis and action, I believe.

Fine, so somebody decided they didn't want people to think they were 100% in agreement with Kate Millett or Andrea Dworkin or whoever.

Well, one would expect they might have noticed that a large segment of the women's movement also isn't. (Most, however, do find much in that kind of analysis of sexual politics that is quite sound. And I would wonder how anyone could call herself a feminist and dismiss it out of hand.)

What's the need for a label to distinguish one's self from a small segment of a broader movement, that simply does not represent the broader movement? Why that particular small segment? Why not distinguish one's self from feminists with flat feet, or feminists who figure skate, or feminists who worship the sun?

I'll bet labels like that would distinguish them from a larger segment of the feminist movement than "sex positive" is even intended to do if we assume that the intention is to distinguish themselves from the very particular element of the feminist movement referred to above -- those who do assert that all sex is exploitive and abusive.

We just don't think that's what it's intended to do.

We think they intend it to distinguish them from feminists who regard prostitution as exploitive, and pornography as abusive, just for instance. Not sex. Prostitution and pornography.

And I think that they should just be honest. Prostitution positive feminists. Pornography positive feminists.

Just think of the dates those would get them.

:rofl:

prostitutes, and be targeted for a certain amount of abuse because of it. :(

Porn positive feminists would probably see themselves become fairly positive, and some of them would probably be scouted for their willingness and talents to be in porn. I wonder how many would choose to make that their career?

ThomCat, I like you and respect you, but....

You're a dude. Stop pretending you know what every woman thinks.

He brings a unique perspective and has never implied that he knows what every woman thinks. He has always been welcome here.

I consider him a friend; we've talked on the phone a few times.

All I'm saying is...can't find a woman who would want to be in porn? I've gotcha one, right here. And I can't be the only one.

And if you are honest, you'll admit that. He questioned how many 'sex/porn positive' feminists would want to be in porn. He did not, in any reading of his post, suggest that no woman would.

I suspect some of the issues you have with plain old not-specifically-sex-positive feminists might be in the words you think they are saying, not in the words they actually speak.

But have you ever seen the horror/comedy movie "One Eyed Monster"? Ron Jeremy's penis (9 and 3/4)gets possessed by an space alien entity that detaches from the man, of course killing him in the process, then tries to find a way to breed, killing people along the way. There's actually a very poignant moment were Jeremy mourns the good old days, when "we were porn STARS" The movie is a marvelous example of the art of irony, although I'm not sure that was the intent, which makes the near perfect irony even more delicious.

I've never implied that I know what any woman thinks, much less that I know what every woman thinks. I don't even claim to know what men think.

I'm not sure where that came from.

I'm sorry you're talking this discussion personally and apparently feeling the need to fight about it. :(

:)

you wouldn't mind being in porn? my question is serious, and not meant at all to criticize. i'm just seeking clarity and making sure i read your post correctly.

if i am reading that right, are you certain? which aspect(of the industry)?

...if i may ask, of course--i don't want to be intrusive if you're not open to discussing this here). so if you don't respond, i'll understand.

I certainly wouldn't mind acting in some scenes from more female-positive (in my view) companies, like Pink and White productions (the company that makes the Crash Pad Series) or gooddykeporn.com. Stuff like that.

Oh, and I'd do webcam in a heartbeat. I'm not at the moment because my parents get my bank statements, but totally would once I'm financially independent.

I know there are problems with the mainstream porn industry; both in how they treat the workers and the portrayals represented. However, I don't think all porn is bad, and, in fact, I think certain types would be enjoyable to work in.

Yup. That's my story.

.................

I'm sorry, but ... whew.

Your story? I think that tells me.

I've been financially independent for 40 years, and my parents never got my bank statements. I can't even imagine what that means. I'm talking to a 15-year-old??

Surely, if you want to be financially independent, you could (a) rent a PO Box, open another bank account, and set up your webcam; (b) go audition somewhere, do a little porn, and save up for the deposit on a shared apartment or something.

Out here in the real adult world, I'll be listening to women with a little life under their belts and a little knowledge of how the world works. I'm sure you'll find that horribly, er, matronizing.

I'm 18 and at university, and my parents refuse to let me be financially independent. I think I might set up another bank account though...first I have to get my learner's permit so I have real ID. I have, like, no hand-eye coordination so no actual driving for now. Ha.

like with the many many choices we make,... it is our journey or life lessons. not knowing anything about you, i am not about to step in and say i know what you need to do. respectfully it is yours to experience and learn and grow....

if you want to do porn, do it.

but i think where the trippin up is, .... you want to make this choice and you want people to respect your choice. validate your choice. approve your choice.

not my job.

i can see the obsticles, hurtles that you will face in your choice. and it is yours to do, .... respectfully. but i am not going to say, hey, thumbs up, good healthy choice on your part. because that is not what i see, that is not what i believe.

if a person choses to use drugs, that is their choice, and i can see it without judgment. i can also see where the person may be tripped up in their choice. i can also see that it is possible the person can do drugs without fucking up their life.

that is what being honest about these subjects are about. it is not a condemnation. it is not judging you. it is being aware of what life possibilities will bring with certain choices.

...considers the long-term repercussions, particularly when one reason the person is entering a facet of the industry, is due to financial needs/constraints.

i recall reading about a pro-domme (dominatrix) who decided to leave the industry for a "straight" job/career. well, here she was--working in a corporate office when guess what happens?

yep. one of her former clients worked in the same building, (of course recognized her) and the games began. :eyes:

this guy starts stalking her at work, begging her for sessions, eventually threatening to reveal her past profession to her employers IF she doesn't oblige him. she was able to successfully sue him, and obtain a restraining order. but, she was lucky. there seem to be far more stories of women w/such "pasts" who can't escape it (if and when they desire to do so)....w/terribly sad (sometimes even tragic) endings.

eco-feminism doesn't imply that other feminists are analizing feminism from an anti-environmental position. "sex-positive" does inherently claim that other feminists are arguing from a sex-negative position.

You could bring up feminist economics as another example. This is feminists discussing feminism from a economics standpoint. But that doesn't imply that other feminists ignore economics, or are against discussing economics, just that they specialize in a depth of economic analysis. Again, there is no inherent "anti" as there is with "sex-positive" feminism.

That is what makes "sex-positive feminists" different. Sex-positive feminists are the ones who want to take credit for being feminists while still taking credit for not really being feminists too. They want to straddle the fence and be in the movement without accepting any of the social backlash of being in the movement. When the backlash starts you can step back and say "But I'm not really one of them." "I'm different."

It's a way of saying you support feminism, but apparently only as much as patriarchy is comfortable with. If patriarchy becomes too uncomfortable and starts to really strike back, you're leaving yourself a way out.

to some extent they've fallen for the negative stereotype of feminists as ugly women who are unfuckable, or prudes, and to some women being unfuckable (by men), or undesirable, is a fate worse than death. they have to declare themselves "sex positive" so that everyone knows they are the fuckable ones.

of what it is all about.

lordy. that is a clear way of saying it.

make sure our guys know we are independent but fuckable, lol. how independent is that. or confident. or assured.

i have always been one to not feel the want to pretext, validate my being. regardless of the urge to, i refuse.

make sure our guys know we are independent but fuckable, lol.

We are -- and they aren't.

Just another catfight. ;)

Maybe one day when there's a decent supply of decent men, women will stop stooping to denigrating other women in order to catch themselves one!

my niece is in a live in on campus high school with lots of problems kids. the girls are harsh, and harsh with one another. such a competition, but living together, it is all the time instead of any respite most get.

i dont think it is so much a natural thing as again, what society is teaching girls from day one, literally as babies and every minute after that. society teaches and conditions females that worth in looks, and society literally have a competition at all times, that really, is a damn hard thing for a woman to say no to.

the whole catfight thing makes me see red.

100%

If I hadn't been late to the party, I would have said it first. ;)

Not particularly happy ones, but I do know them. My problem with the topic along with the 'sex positive' meme is the bullshit-- happy happy joy joy we're all working our way through college-- bullshit. As far as choice, it's almost always an economic choice, not a career one. It may become a career choice, but generally it doesn't start out that way.

And though I know sex workers who *are*--(or have) working their way through college, I also know ones who are addicted, ones who marry their way out of sex work, ones who feel trapped, ones who are abused, ones who have rather severe personality disorders, ones who started under 10 years of age and ones who still are too goddam young to be doing what they're doing. If we could have an honest discussion, which I don't believe we can, that would be great.

The basic difference in ideology between us, is I think women are the sex class, and cannot 'choose' exploitation, because the simple 'beingness' of being female is exploitation by default. One the other hand, I think, I hope, that's slowly changing, and I believe that's what you've tapped into, the more choices women have gained, the more sex work looks like an actual choice. Maybe someday it will be, but not while our reproductive rights remain under attack, not while every porn site has words like 'slut' and whore' and dirty bitches". Not while violence against women remains epidemic, and not while we cannot gain economic parity.

My two cents. (Half naked because I just got off work and that's how it is when I get off work. I might still have some lipgloss on, I haven't checked)

i totally overlooked the spike heel and lip gloss comment.

to make a comment like that at the end of a post i think is exactly the projection given to the feminist, as if she is not allowed to enjoy all the woman that she is. i did not know i was a shoe peron until a couple three years ago had to get something for christmas party and fell in love with my little three inch heel boots. the next year had to get another outfit.... (how i am stocking closet) and found another pair in black slightly different style. i spent more time at the party showing off the boots.... loved them.

it is just more of the reinforcement that a feminist.... unless sex positive does not value and appreciate the outer of being female. it is a conditioned response to feminist that needs to just die and after all these years appears to be the same battle going strong.

another part of this that i have questions about, is what exactly is the "only certain sex is ok" meme. position? gender on gender? porn? stripper and prostitute? beastilality? i dont know what is defining the sex positive person and the person that says only certain sex is ok.

if defining the sex positive is anyone who wants to have sex anytime, anyway, without any concern???? i am not seeing very many at all. i have seen many threads when it is a repug that is outside the box having a lot of the defined sex positive feminists saying bad, bad, .... there are only two or three that i have seen (male) that are truly sex positive. (girl is free game once hit puberty. now that is true sex positive)

but with the outside the box sex world, i think the frustration for me on du is the continued, what anyone does is fine and good (your happy happy joy joy) ignoring the reality of these choices that we never talk about. all choices are up to individuals. and action creates reaction. it is the pretending that the "action creates reaction" is not part of the equation that frustrates me. at the least, lets do this in honesty.....

Some of the most interesting ('sex positive' in a bit different sense of the word) people I know are into SMBD. Now almost ALL of them have 'issues', and are quite frank about them. I don't understand the desire for bondage or pain for myself, but these people work out what they need to work out I guess. For them, usually unless it's part of the game, sex is not a commodity. It's a very, very powerful human force that influences and changes so much of our lives as we live it.

I once knew a group of mixed sexual preference people who had a-- small sex club, I guess you'd call it. They were Wiccan, and I don't know much about Wiccan --as in did that had anything to do with it-- but they, also were very open, very honest about sex and it's effect on the human Psyche. (As an aside, the gentleman I knew best was Gay. I'll never forget the night he answered questions about specific acts to a Jamaican women, who was not quite a homophobe, but didn't 'get' how someone could be Gay. He did a spectacular job in showing how he was simply human before anything else)

Now, THAT to me is truth, acknowledging that sex has a powerful effect on human behavior, and as feminist and other philosophers have shown, humans tend to dichotomize, using a master/slave dialectic, usually manifesting as Madonna/Whore in the case of women.

I remember watching a documentary about a stripper who had designed a very sexy burlesque show, she traveled around the country, had a very handsome, supportive partner and made tons of money. What struck me about her wasn't so much her beauty or her talent--she had both in abundance, but her narrative about power. Men would allow her to poor beer on their heads, Push them away, yell at them, silly things like that. So part of sex work for this talented beautiful intelligent woman was about power. And THAT's the rub, because in a patriarchy, it's more like the illusion of power, or, a little real power for the one, NO fucking power for the many.

That kind of power *is* seductive, seeing the desire in the eyes of men, the desperation of that desire and a little fear or insecurity. Many men-- too many --deal with those feelings by degrading the object of desire.

so many many times i hear the illusion of anything and then on the other hand heard the whining and crying about why their life is what it is.

i can respect any choice, any journey, and life lesson in honesty. dont respect it a whole lot telling self lies and living in those lies.

On sex-positive feminism. (We haven't exactly defined it here, have we?)

To me, it's kind of poorly written and although it defines sex positive feminism well enough--- a kind of backlash against the anti-pornography movement, and seemingly, exactly what it says, a form of feminism obsessed with sex acts themselves in all forms, it also has very divisive wording in areas of gender, sexuality and racial equality (as well as feminism itself)--Long standing goals of ALL feminism. It also seems to follow Libertarian politics---an ideology I distrust deeply.

What do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

I think the article needs tweaking, but I don't do wiki anymore, no time.

"Sex-positive feminism centers on the idea that sexual freedom is an essential component of women's freedom."

What do they imagine the 60s were about?

"Rather, they see sexual orientation and gender as social constructs that are heavily influenced by society."

Um, duh. From whom, exactly, are they supposed to be distinguishing themselves?

"Sex-radical feminists in particular come to a sex-positive stance from a deep distrust in the patriarchy's ability to secure women's best interest in sexually limiting laws."

Uh huh ... so we're doing what about that, now? The patriarchy, that is?

I went looking for poltical analysis, political action ... I saw none.

"As such, sex-positive feminists oppose legal or social efforts to control sexual activities between consenting adults, whether these efforts are initiated by the government, other feminists, opponents of feminism, or any other institution."

Yeah. Basically loonytarians.

and call it a win?

where is the feminism in this?

That's about what I thought.

good word for them. "loonytarians"

:spray:

Saw "loonytarians" once someplace - may have been a dear departed former regular in the gun dungeon - and it was just so obviously right.

"Libertarian" means many things to many people (as does "liberal", a swear word to myself and anyone whose politics comes out of the 60s or earlier).

At politicalcompass.org, for instance, I am waaaay up there on the "libertarian" scale -- but also waaaay out there on the "left" scale. A strong commitment to both individual liberty and collective responsibility: yer basic social democrat in the circumstances.

Just one more word that has been co-opted by people who won't stand up and take credit for what they're really about. ;)

but it also explains why some of the dude's on this board seem to think they're "feminist" :eyes:....if this is the kind of thing they read (for a definition). :(

offensive way men/boys talk about women/girls as things to be hit, fucked and everything else is a compliment?

i dont understand the disconnect with this. i dont get how, listening to males speak about females in the most vulgar of manners flip to males respecting the independent, empowered female. anytime du gets on a role, like this weekend with different threads on boobs, boobs, boobs.... nfl girl football, .... prostituting self to get breaks changed, ..... superbowl commercials, ..... all kinds of threads this weekend, inevitably the talk of female is trash. jokes about every part of the womans body tearing them up.

i dont understand how the young woman today, listening to men talk about women, feel it is complimentary. how one can feel respect. there is no respect. i dont understand how one can lie to themselves in telling them it is positive to females. and reality is, if a male does not respect female, self preservation insists, the female will not respect male. she may interact, but respect wont be there. that will cause all kinds of problems in a relationship, mostly covered up, hidden.

and agreeing with a poster, that it is the insecurity and fear base of males that cause them to objectify and denegrate females to such an extent is a part of this.

how is this healthy for either of our gender.

how do females convince themselves or rectify it in their brain that really, these males are enlightened, or respectful or positive to females.

quote:
offensive way men/boys talk about women/girls as things to be hit, fucked and everything else is a compliment?
i dont understand the disconnect with this. i dont get how, listening to males speak about females in the most vulgar of manners flip to males respecting the independent, empowered female.

i sincerely appreciate reading the posts of those (like you) who seem concerned about language. who understands that words have a power, particularly the language of oppression.

a male visitor to this group, thinks himself feminist because he supports making birth control and abortion accessible (legal, etc.) to women. that's a start, i suppose. but it's difficult for me to take him seriously, when i've seen him post in terms of "banging" women and girls, in other parts of du.

:puke:
yeah, that's such pro-woman language. :eyes: ......NOT!

it does matter.

a person can hear respect or not. or i would think

after thinking about this post, and why hearing disrespect is so easy for me, i have had a lifetime of being around people that are respectful. it is not often i encounter disrespect. so when i come up against it, it is loud and clear and obvious to me. in the face immediately. maybe that is the difference

maybe people that are not raised amongst respect dont hear the difference between respecting someone or not

or maybe, in this culture we have just become immuned to the disrespect

but it does matter
and it does say something about how people feel
it is an indicator of relationship one will have

speak of women as whores to be banged, only support choice so that if a woman they're 'banging' gets pregnant, he wants her to be able to get an abortion. It's still all. about. him.

I have a friend like that. /facepalm

:spray:

guys like that deserve the facepalm. there's a few on du that come to mind, who are serial-feminist-baiters. :eyes: seem to love to create threads that bring out feminists, so they can show off what great little misogynists they are.

i finally bought a clue and put them on ignore (the cyber facepalm).

only support choice so that if a woman they're 'banging' gets pregnant, he wants her to be able to get an abortion. It's still all. about. him.

it's the 60s all over.

Hugh Hefner. Free love.

Women demanded an end to sexual double standards and the freedom (contraception, abortion ... and respect) to define/act on our own sexuality.

Men dug it. At least, they dug what they could make with it.

Fewer of us in the 60s seemed to be so blind to what they were up to, I think is the difference.

totally agree. there's nothing inherently "feminist" about those guys. it's pathetic to me that the dudes w/such ideas lurk around this forum, thinking they're all "enlightened" ....:eyes:...um, no--but thanks for the laughs. :spray:

Couldn't post in the forum for a long time because of it, and it was a decision based in part on the sexism here.

Someone donated on my behalf, unsolicited. I have mixed feelings because I wouldn't have asked them to put money here on my behalf ... but I am appreciating having some of the features back, including being able to post in this group.

Anyway, my point is - people who got pissed off enough to stop donating can't explain in this group why they stopped posting here.

I've been fortunate enough to have a benefactor myself these last two years, since I can't figure out PayPal from one year to the next, and half the time Visa and I aren't on speaking terms, and just don't bother.

I have never thought of the fee as "donating". Donating is something one does to a non-profit endeavour, or at least a worthy selfless one. This is a commercial enterprise here, after all. But as such, it's one I use the services of.

To me, it was a charge for the use of the services I wanted, specifically the search function. Google works almost as well (when you do a search by site), but it's convenient.

Also, of course, one gets to post in this forum. ;)

I don't spend as much time on DU and I rarely post on DU anymore. I tend to read the headlines and opening posts and don't read or engage in the discussions.

I quit looking or responding to the feminists forum for many reasons. I began to feel that I had to be too careful in my posts on this forum or my feminism would be questioned. It no longer felt completely safe to discuss feminist thought.

... and don't bother explaining, for anyone who hasn't a clue, why it doesn't feel "safe" to discuss feminist thought in this forum.

Hey iverglas. I appreciate your posts and I have learned a tremendous amount from you but I have to admit, this particular post would make me wary of posting here.

Hell I've dolled out my share of snarky posts and I'm reading this thread and wondering about my own participation in making people uncomfortable here. I think if you go back and read through some of the threads, it's not hard to understand what people mean when they say they're uncomfortable about having to defend their choice of words here.

Maybe we should listen to the reasons being given rather than just dismissing them. Maybe if we did we could make this forum as vibrant as it was when it started. ?

Posts like the one to which I replied are just passive aggressive noise.

I don't think "choice of words" was the actual problem being referred to, but I just don't know what it was. So what exactly was the point of the post in question? Maybe we should listen to the reasons? What reasons?

instead of being confrontational. Your response was exactly the type of post I was referring to, but I suspect that wasn't unintentional. Maybe you should explain why you don't care about the tone you use in a post like this.

No apologies. :eyes:

it is the polite thing to do. i also want to ask the "safe" cause safe on net makes no sense to me. is it because it may challenge beliefs? is that all it takes to not feel safe is to have someone being asked questions or beliefs challenged?

in so doing that, i have just made the person feel not "safe" by asking this very question

then i think, as a feminist isnt there something about being able to handle a simple question or discussion?

then i think, well, another will take that as being mean. and to me it is no more than what it is.

so i dont post, and feel rude and think, really this is not what a message board, feminist forum is about

but it made my point better than I expected. Your right that safe makes no sense on an internet forum. What I rather meant to say is that different points of view generate confrontation instead of discussion all too often. Ironically, my viewpoints generally coincide with most on this forum. I just feel like I can't bring up discussion on issues without once again having to prove I'm feminist enough to be taken seriously. It gets very tiring.

i talk about the objectification or dehumanizing women or blatant sexist comments. i get called every name in the book, literally, with an assumption of an anonymous people knowing a damn thing about me. my sexuality is torn apart, ripped to shreds and disposed

and it does get old and tired

and still....

i am there

but i hear you if you just dont want to bother. cause i dont sometimes, too.

but, there are things about feminists that think differently i would really really like to delve into, understand, listen and have back and forth. and we cant do that if we all agree on everything

when she included the option in the original poll?

At this posting, 53% of the people who answered the poll chose that option. I think there's something to be learned here.

fairly innocuous and get jumped on by one person. Instead of a friendly response or one asking for more clarification, I get a response that appears confrontational. I just got tired of posting on a forum where too often posts seem to generate confrontation instead of discussion.

I've simply missed your "feminist thought" at this group. I'm sorry you feel that way about this forum, and wasn't aware you were ever a big participant or even very interested. As much as I enjoy your posts--and I do-- your comment took me aback a bit, but I wasn't originally going to respond. This is the ONLY forum I consistently post topics in, (besides the pro-choice group) so I know who's here and who ain't (very few feminists hang out at DU; feminists, myself included, tend to go other places far more feminist friendly and far more proactive.) Then again, a few fairly hard core feminists hardly EVER post here. It's a dungeon with low participation and it always has been. I was just perusing the topics, not particularly controversial really. I find it interesting that a spleen venting topic like this one gets more paticipation from feminists than, say, a thread about violence against women, the backlog of rape kits, or inequities in pay, or the death of great, feminist women. Sad and a little strange.

so maybe you wouldn't remember her participation. However, the fact that a founding member of this group is being challenged on her participation and interest in the forum when the thread specifically asked people why they stopped posting here really should be a decent indicator of the problem.

:shrug:

a founding member of this group is being challenged on her participation and interest in the forum

Who done that?

I saw a post that did nothing but say poor me, bad you, whoever 'you' might be, and whatever 'you' might have done.

Left me completely unenlightened, but suspecting I was supposed to feel guilty about something.

I don't.

I don't expect you to feel guilty but I do prefer to not be called whinny, passive/aggressive, etc. based on one short post.

I was trying to be clear, but it does sound snarky, re-reading it.

but I appreciate the comment. I don't feel any antagonism towards anyone on this board or that your comments were unfair. It is just a discussion board and I, like many here, are politically active outside the internet. I've always felt more comfortable conveying thoughts verbally rather than in internet posts.

"I've simply missed your "feminist thought" at this group. I'm sorry you feel that way about this forum, and wasn't aware you were ever a big participant or even very interested."

It surely sounds to me like cally's participation and interest in tis forum is being challenged.

and I was one of the original 10 who asked for the forum.

I'm sorry I responded to the initial post. I shouldn't have.

I know you were one of the original 10 - I still have the PMs. I don't post here any more either and I think it's clear as day what is meant by not feeling comfortable/safe. I'm sorry for the part I've played in creating that atmosphere.

On the bright side, this thread gave me cause to go back and read some of the early threads and pms on it. Good memories. :hug:

I've always admired your strength, ability to post your thoughts well, and wisdom. :hug:

very direct. i like to ask questions to, a lot of them, lol and actually listen. i do better asking than making assumptions. but some (that notorious some) people are bothered by them, as if i am attacking and i am only asking.

anyway, i remember you not from feminism forum, i just recently found the place, and i always enjoyed your posts....

thanks for the info

I understand you are through here,(and with this topic no doubt)and that's fine of course, but I don't understand exactly what it could possibly be about this little forum that drove you away. You're a warrior from what I've observed, and this never has been the most challenging of places.

edit; I guess you did explain it, you felt attacked. Sorry.

Although I was certainly around then. What I've observed, and to be fair --may not be fair-- is women tend 'split' on 'feminist thought' in areas of sex work, pornography and the value or, or insecurity of, physical attractiveness. Oh, and religion.

There is so much more, and I've seen thread after thread of what I would consider important topics go by the wayside. On the other hand, If I wanted to keep the place jumping, I'd simply piss as many people off as I could, or post as many sex topics as I could. Works for others in all areas of DU and I'm sure it would work for me. However, I get my feminist fulfillment elsewhere like I mentioned. I stay because I work with so many young women who simply don't know much about feminism or politics and I suspect the same thing around here. I merely offer my 2cents in a place to place to browse and topics to read. I have no emotional investment, but I understand how long term members could get frustrated.

Another edit; I just went waaaay back to the beginning. Kind of interesting who is here and who isn't. The why's of that are sad.

...of the early days. There also seems to be a split regarding non-ethnic and glbt/gender concerned feminist issues. A few members frequently felt the need to post, for lack of better word....complaints....that women's issues don't get the attention of say, glbt and/or ethnic issues (in their opinion), by the greater progressive community--and even the world at large.

It seems frequently that the way such concerns were expressed seemed more than a little....divisive. Often those expressing such thoughts fail to realize that not every member that reads and posts in this forum is...non-ethnic and straight. Thus possibly alienating glbt and ethnic posters w/such comments.

I've seen incidents where one (or more) members of the forum called individuals on these comments, when made. I also noticed that a couple of the people that used to make such comments/arguments (frequently) were eventually banned from DU. But (unfortunately) not before those that called them on the comments quietly went away (perhaps thinking other members silence, was acceptance of such divisive comments?):shrug:

??

- oh what the hell you probably aren't even around anymore since this post was made so long ago...

An unsupported generalization supported by another unsupported generalization.

That works well.

Well, it did sow discord. Was that the purpose?

It's not been active, and I started a new job.

I love the feminst forum and wish it were more active, which probably means I should come here more often now myself, LOL! Take my own advice!

back before this forum existed...

over the years i only visit DU occasionally to catch up on certain issues i noticed this forum for the first time today and decided to explain why i posted my above question but the poll isn't relevant to me since i didn't know this forum was here...

- when i noticed this forum tho i hoped that it was active but apparently not (??)...

...but consistently look in here (and a couple of other places that mean something to me).

I won't be chased away by disruptors (as I think a few members were). More often than not, the disruptors stopped posting (and insisting on lurking here). I guess they got bored with this place. Those that didn't get bored, were eventually done away with for being blatantly obnoxious, rude and incivil all over du.