To cover or not to cover.... Little girls, nudity and shame.

My sister called me looking for advice about my niece. I said I'd think about it, and after thinking and coming up with no really good answers, am here. My niece is 22 months old, and has figured out that, as long as she's inside, the house is warm enough that clothing can be optional. (They live in GA.) And she's taking advantage of that option.

Now, Sis is okay with this... niece is comfortable in her own skin and Sis doesn't care - niece puts her clothes on as best as she can or brings them to my sister or both when she's cold. It's my sister's mother-in-law who is throwing fits.

Now, the MIL is a fundy, though fortunately apolitical. (Otherwise my sister would not be living in the same town with said woman.) MIL swatted my niece for taking off her clothes in her own home. So Sis is dealing with two issues - swatting a child and trying to make my niece feel ashamed of herself.

Any suggestions? I told my sister that MIL needs to not be asked over until she realizes that neither corporal punishment nor physical shame are allowed in Sis's household, and that if MIL doesn't like it, MIL can go find some other grandchild to swat and shame, but Sis is not quite ready to force that battle.

and I LOVED IT. The only thing was that I had to play in my room (I lived with my mom & grandparents & they always had friends just dropping over). I had no problems with that--hell, I hate clothes now and only wear them because I think it's gross to put naked butt on the couch :D

So the MIL is a fundie that thinks naked=bad or naked=slut, etc, right? Well, I would tell sis to gently remind MIL that we're born naked, and Adam & Eve only donned the fig leaves after they became aware of their nakedness by eating from the tree of knowledge. God likes us to be naked--that was his original intention (of course, there's the whole metaphorical meaning of "naked"--did it mean unclothed, or just "exposed"? anyhoo).

Secondly, this is your sister's house, right? She's not living with MIL, right?

I understand that SIL doesn't want to get into it with MIL, but seriously--she's an adult, with a child, and she's allowed to have whatever rules she wishes in her house. I assume that she's not letting the baby run around the neighborhood naked and unattended, right? Just some baby butt flyin in the wind--nothing wrong with that! In fact, it's healthy---girls have shorter urethras and diapered females have a higher risk of UTI's by sitting in dirty diapers--the fecal bacteria can migrate to the urethra and cause UTI's. That's a fact (Tell her an almost-RN told you this :) ). It's healthy to let her run around butt nekkid. Nothing wrong with it. Not only will it possibly prevent UTI's, but it gives the kid a sense of self and confidence and no shame.

Tell Sis that she HAS To put her foot down with regards to MIL--no swatting, ESPECIALLY just for being naked. Trying to jump in the fireplace while its blazing could be grounds for swatting. Trying to eat the parakeets could be grounds for swatting. Running around au naturelle--NO swatting.

Have sis tell MIL that, at least for the time being, the kiddo will probably be nekkid during waking hours. If MIL doesn't like it, don't come by. Or CALL before she comes by if it's that big of a deal and sis can throw a diaper on the kid.

Your sis seems to have a good sense about kids, though. Let them be free---that baby will have decades and decades worth of clothing ahead of her. Let her bum run free and wild as long as possible :D

to teach a child shame? The choice seems obvious to me. Besides your sister isn't forcing the battle her MIL is. Your sister's husband should stand up to his mother and say something in defense of the way he and his wife raise their daughter. He should not leave it to your sister to look like the bad one starting problems with his mother.

My MIL and I have differences of opinion and it's hard to just say, "But this is *my* child and we do it this way," but sometimes you have to. What worked best for me was to tell my MIL that "You did a great job raising your son, and he's such a good guy that I married him! He and I have agreed that this is how we want (name of child) raised." Taking the 'more flies with honey than vinegar' approach has worked best for us. Does sis's husband back her up or is he stuck in the middle? That can make a big difference too.

until the kid is out of that "egocentric hedonism" stage, something that happens by the age of 3. That's when you can talk to them about wearing clothes in front of strangers, how it's expected and that everybody does it.

MIL also needs to be told that nobody gets to hit the kid but her mother, and if MIL does it again, she'll call the cops. Sounds extreme, I know, but it may be the only way to stop it. I doubt MIL has a clue in the world, and fundies always think they're absolutely right about absolutely everything.

I'm a firm believer in one openhanded swat delivered on a diaper, just enough to make a noise and get the kid's attention when it's chewing on an electrical cord, running into the street, trying to drink Drano, or doing something else life threatening that it doesn't want to stop doing. Swatting a toddler for going au naturel seems over the top, though. You are perfectly correct in being upset over it, as is your sister. It's abuse.

In my eyes, this is the type of abuse that is most damaging later in life---shame over ones self--especially genetalia and sexuality, tend to have disasterous results later in life.

There's nothing shameful about nakedness. Hell---I think naked is great, especiallly for babies/toddlers. It was all my mother could do to keep clothes on me, and she finally had to FORCE Me when I was about 7 to stop playing in the yard in just my undies because I was an early bloomer and starting to get boobs (really!). I hated clothing. Nothing could be finer than to be in Caroliner playing in the mud in your undies. And it made wash day easier for my mom because the only thing she had to wash was my undies, because that's all I ever wore.

I don't know---when people shame children about natural behaviours--penises, vaginas, masturbation, exploration, curiosity, nakedness--that goes to the ROOT of who we are. I don't believe in shaming kids under any circumstances, but I think it's over the top for the MIL to mix corporal punishment with the emotional manipulation of shame. I mean, does she want this girl to grow up with an eating disorder? Body dysmorphic disorder? fear of sex and sexuality?

I read about a serial killer (obviously this is an extreme, but I thought of this when I read the post) who, as a child, had very religious fundamentalist parents. When he was about 4, his mother found him in the bathroom looking at his penis in the mirror. He wasn't masturbating per-se, just doing the look-and-see that kids do. THe mother beat him severely and told him that if he touched his "birdie" it would fall off and he would become a girl. As he grew older, the shame of his genitallia became more intense, and when he reached puberty, his mother would tie his hands to the bed frame to stop him from masturbating. By the age of 30, he had killed, tortured, raped, and maimed several dozen women and men, and he's quite open with the fact that the humiliation he received as a child over natural body functions and anatomy is what sparked him to mix humiliation, pain and abuse with sexual gratification.

Of course, I doubt that the baby is goign to turn into a monster because of the MIL's actions, but that doesn't diminish the psychological implications of her actions towards this child. :sad:

in their own home. Someone - and it would probably best come from your brother-in-law - needs to explain to the MIL that the rules in their house is that it's okay for a 22-month-old to run around inside the house without clothes, and that swatting is not okay. If MIL wants to make "no nudity" rules in HER house, that's her right - but she still doesn't get to swat, unless it's life-threatening. Unless the child is taking off her clothes in front of a pedophile, being nekkid is not going to qualify as swat-worthy. And shaming or ridiculing the child for being unclad is totally not acceptable.

"Mom, I understand your beliefs are a little different, but please accept that these are our rules for our daughter in our home. Please respect that."

1: BIL needs to make it very clear that NO ONE hits their child in their home. And if MIL can't respect that, then she needs to realize she's jeopardizing her chances of watching her granddaughter grow up.

2: Has sister talked about MIL hitting with her daughter? I'm not sure to what extent a toddler that age can understand that "Grandma did a bad thing when she hit you, and you shouldn't be afraid to not wear clothes in the house." I think making sure that your niece understands that she didn't do anything wrong is paramount, an issue that needs to be dealt with before the MIL. If MIL would apologize, that would be even better.

I've printed this thread to .pdf and sent it to my sister. The major issues are that the MIL is the only family that either my sister or my BIL have in the area, and BIL is in some bad headspace (he's 3 months back from Iraq, from a unit that took heavy losses, and he's 3 weeks out of the Marines) so while he's told his mother to lay the eff off, the emotional toll of trying to be father, husband, son and grieving soldier is a huge one.

MIL is both WRONG and OVER the line in terms of her authority. Sis should feel no qualms whatsover about letting her toddler run around naked and 100% empowered to politely but very firmly tell MIL who is and who is not the mommy in this family.

And "swatting" a grandchild is out of the question. MIL should understand very clearly that she will NEVER use any form of corporal punishment on Sis's child again.

God. Doesn't fundy-ness make you wonderful? :puke:

Switched at birth, perhaps.... BIL is smart, sarcastic, pagan, and generally a great person - though right now he's in his own special ex-soldier's hell.

My sister's mother in law.... If they based MIL jokes on this woman, they'd have to tone them down. *sigh*

BIL did stand up to his mother and told her if she ever hits his daughter again, he'll hit back since my niece is too small to defend herself.

I so wish they'd come to Colorado instead of going to Georgia when he left the service....

My husband is unbelievably different (in good ways) from his mom (who is crackers)! Fortunately for me, he has zero trouble standing his ground with her!

I dig being nude, and it bugs me that people put their own shit on kids about 'nudity' and their bodies. The whole American puritanical thing is so hypocritical to me.

They're cool with watching shit be blown up on tv and in film, but a breast and seeing a nipple on CBS... :scared: Whatever.

This probably doesn't help you much with your issue, just wanted to weigh in on how I feel about it. From what I've read, you have some great responses from the ladies! :hi:

I treat my daughter any differently?

Commone summertime apparel in our house (inside the house that is) is a diaper and one of those little diaper cover thingies (to keep her from unvelcroing--I have no problem with the nakedness, but peeing on the floor is for puppies, not babies, lol) and she loves it.

I think it is important to teach our kids that inside the house and outside the house are different--that some clothing is required in public for whatever reasons we have created--but constricting our kids at home is unhealthy--I want to create an environment in which my child feels comfortable and feels like she can be herself, not one where she feels like there are "rules" to follow (other than those required for safety and human decency of course).

There are others now, but not for this forum.

I think your daughter is about a year younger than my niece, and my sister's about your age. Too bad you're not in the same area, though - I think you'd all get along....

I found the thread interesting, even though it is a bit older, and I couldn't help but put in my two cents.

It seems like a lot of parents around my area are either a lot older than I am, or just not cool, lol. But one of these days...