why do people judge because I both don't want to marry AND want kids?

Plenty of men get to make that decision. Plenty of men create children and walk away, or only do the bare minimum in child support payments, or are only half-assed 'parents'. Yet whenever I, as a woman, say that I don't plan to get married (see my post from yesterday) and I DO want to have kids, I get flak along the lines of, 'But that's selfish to have a child without a father. Every child needs a father.'

I disagree.

But, beyond that, I, personally, wouldn't HAVE a child purposefully, planned, without it having a father. And a father whom I loved and who knew the deal and who wanted to be a fully committed parent. However, if this circumstance doesn't present itself, and I find myself 40 and financially secure, I would definitely adopt a child who might otherwise have no family at all.

What's so wrong in that?

and her health insurance won't cover in-vitro fertilization costs for her at the same percentage that they would for a married person. (She would have a difficult time conceiving without in-vitro fertilization.) I think they'll cover 40% for her and 80% or so if the peron is married. (It doesn't have anything to do with whether both married partners are covered by the insurance so that doesn't explain the situation.)

Her preference would be to find a man that she loves, get married, and then go through the process. However, she's running out of time. She's absolutely willing to adopt as well, but it seems that that option's also severely restricted for unmarried people. (She wouldn't even expect to get a newborn child if she adopted. Her adoption preference would be to get an older child who would be "less desirable" to most people who want to adopt. It doesn't matter.

be an excellent parent has a right to make that decision. It's not necessary for you to get people's approval to make a decision that is right for you, but I think it's easy to understand why people don't approve, and I don't think it's an issue of sexism (you didn't say it was, I know). While you are right that plenty of men have children and walk away, I believe society in general (I realize there are many individual exceptions) is very disapproving of that behavior, and this is understandable since often others are affected financial and socially by parents' not taking responsibility. I think society in general is also disapproving of planning in advance to have a one parent family, regardless of gender, simply because it is so hard to take on that level of responsibility alone and to do it well. The reality is also that legal responsibilities are as important as love when it comes to children, so marriage is viewed differently from non-marriage when it comes to kids.

Certainly anyone who adopts a child deserves society's respect.

NOT wanting kids--at least not right now.

We married seven years ago. Immediately after, we got pressure from some of his (now former) friends and a few of my (now former) friends. "When are you guys going to get started?" "Aren't you ready, yet?" "You seem to enjoy our kids so much--why don't you have kids, too..." Blah, blah, blah.

Sadly, misery loves company. Which isn't to say everyone that we knew that had kids were miserable--just that they hadn't explored any of their other options or choices and seemed to envy the fact that we did. We chose to not have kids right away--both our parents had because that is what people did when they got married, but unfortunately in many ways the children suffered for it. We love children too much to have them and not treat them as important as they should be.

If we reach the point where I am past the ability to conceive, we are both open to adoption--there are so many children in this world that need parents. I don't have to have a child look like me or my husband to love him/her. For some reason, this is also an idea that some of tried to JUDGE us on. :eyes: whatever...

ALSO, judgement seems inherent in society for those that dare to walk to the beat of a different drum. It's so easy for some to just hurl their ideas of what is best onto others that threaten their ideas of how things SHOULD look. S

Screw those people! LOL!

dealing with attitudes like that. I found it very tiresome when my sisters weren't interested in any part of my life other than the men, and the prospect of my settling down with them. I dealt with that by finding supportive friends who valued me as I was, and had no interest in marrying me off. ;) If I hadn't found someone I was willing to settle down with, I'd have been happy being single indefinitely. There are so many things to learn, so many things you can do with your life. There's no reason to pick the marriage/kids route unless it really feels right to you.

It's bullshit.

Many children who grow up in unhappy homes will tell you that they would have been better off without a father and with a mother who wasn't constantly scared for her life, health or sanity. I'd have much rather have been the only child of my single mother, raised with the support of her family (who did not want her to marry my father -- this being a rather radical concept in the not-so-liberated Indiana 70s) than to have been raised with the psychopath she ended up married to. (Not that I don't love my sisters, but...) In fact, I'd rather not be here (I'd rather she have aborted me) than have wasted her life with the idiot she married (who is not my biofather).

If you want to marry, do so. If you don't, don't. If you want a child of your own and can afford it, go for it! If you don't, don't. It's your life and you're the only one who can live it.

(and, Stell.... get out of Texas. There are other places you can get CS/Bank jobs that won't suck your soul nearly as badly... and there are other jobs that you can use with your degree. When I was in your situation, I sold everything but my computer and my bed, moved into a tiny studio that was disgustingly cheap, saved my money and moved cross country. Best thing I ever did.)

I raised kids without a father for quite a while. While I wish I had been older, wiser and more responsible, they turned out ok. (Thank God) They (I have 2 of my own) have different fathers, one who is dead now from alcoholism. My son is much healthier for not being raised around him. The sad thing is this man just was incapable of being a father. One of those "walk away" ones you were talking about. He tried, in his fashion to connect, but he just couldn't. The one thing he did do for my son was to make sure he was enrolled in the Cowachin band in Canada. It was about as much as he could do.

When I met my husband, he was raising two daughters on his own. Mom was mentally ill and very unstable (she eventually committed suicide) Not only was that unusual for it's time, he had been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis the same year she left. (The girls were 9 months and 2 years old)

We came together not only out of love, but also as two damaged people with a mutual need to support our parenting. It was actually almost a cosmic coincidence.

Yet he was doing a great job, and I had learned how to be a decent mother.

This is one of those "two much information responses" but I do not have a particularly pleasant past, and it's given me a broad perspective.

One of those perspectives, is that women and men are very capable of raising a healthy, well adjusted child on their own. If it's a well thought out conscience choice, isn't that better than abandoment? Or any number of horrors, mistakes and disapointments that can come with certain relationships?
I do know kids usually want to know about their heritage though, but who doesn't? That can be handled in positive fashion as well.
When the girls mom was alive despite some poor choices on her part, we never kept them from her, we tried to let them have the best relationship they could with her, something in light of what happened, I'm eternally grateful for.

I never criticize someone who chooses not to have children, not to marry, or to raise a child on their own. There are a variety of reasons to do so, and it's none of my business, unless someone is close enough to me to share their business.

their decisions.

There are a great number of folks who walked down the aisle and had babies because it was "expected" and they had parental or societal pressure to do so...and based on the divorce rate, there are a lot of people who regret their decisions.

So you run into folks who forced themselves into the mold, are miserable and like all miserable people they want company...so they will single out people who didn't play along.

Same goes for single people who will maliciously pick on their married "breeder" friends...

I say...to each his/her own...

and I don't think mothers are necessary

What I think IS necessary for a child to have is a full circle of people who love and adore that child, who nurture it and teach it and cherish its being.

I grew up without a father. My mother could not have done it on her own without the HORDES of help that family (distant and close) and friends gave to her. I really do not see any benefit i would have in my life had I had a father. I got all of the male influence I needed from my grandfather, uncles, friends, etc. And I didn't just have my mom. I had a grandmother, greatgrandmother, aunts, friends, etc.

I think that parents are vital to the health and wellbeing of a child. But I do not think that a child growing up without X or Y parent makes that child any less of a person, at least as long as that child is reared in a safe and stable environment knowing that they're loved and appreciated, and I don't think it makes a difference if that environment is given on behalf of the mother and father equally, mother only, father only, or extended family without any consideration to 'birth parents'.

what I *HAVE* found is that many single-family households (mothers and fathers alike) spend inordinate amounts of time TELLING their children that they would be better if only mommy was there, or if only daddy hadn't left, etc, instead of focusing on the good that their lives are, even without that person being present. I think that makes the child feel that they are less of a person because they don't have X parent around. My mom never said shit about my dad, and that was fine. I never felt deprived because he wasn't there, and never felt that my life would have been better if he was. In fact, once I found out what an asshole he was, I'm glad he WASN'T around. But I think many parents put their own insecurities and bad decisions upon their children and create neurotic children based on MOM's opinion, or DAD's opinion. Obviously not all, and not a majority of parents do this. But I've known alot of single-parent households, and I"ve seen and heard what the parents say to their kids about the absent parent, and I really think that has a strong basis in how that child feels about themselves WITHOUT that parent around.

An interesting note--my sister in law was in her mid 20's when her parents (my in-laws) divorced. That was over 15 years ago. The woman is STILL in weekly therapy sessions to help her "get over" the divorce. She even calls herself "a child of a broken home" which is BULLSHIT---she was in fucking GRAD SCHOOL when her parents divorced. Whenever something bad goes on in her life, the FIRST thing she does is blame Mom & Dad for having the audacity to end their decades-long loveless marriage and get on with their lives so that they could finally be HAPPY in their lives.

She always asks my husband (who is 32 now) how he ever managed to get on with his life after their parents divorced. he's like "what's to get over? they hated each other and were miserable when they were married. I was happy for that shit to end so that *I* didn't hate them and be miserable LIKE them when I grew up"

Of course, she's a nutcase from the word go....

for example my sister. my mother had her soon after getting married and then her husband died of cancer. so my mother moves in with her mother and raises my sister to the best of her ability.
they lived in a low income area and had my father not come along courting...they may have ended up in public housing ...my dad marries my mom, has two kids and he dies when I am a child...but my mother by this time is stronger and better able to care for all of us (house paid for..etc)..

BUT...my nearly 50 year old sister is still moaning and bitching that my mother made bad choices and somehow is looking upon her life thinking my mother could have made it better. my sister is successful has three wonderful kids...but still she blames my mother....

there is no making some people happy...they look for misery in every corner.