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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 12:24 PM
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"Sex and Feminism: Who Is Being Silenced?"
Sex and Feminism: Who Is Being Silenced?

by Adriene Sere

Leftist publications have a problem with radical feminism. They have long maintained an informal ban against publishing radical feminist writers. They refuse to grapple with radical feminism's critique of male supremacist sexuality as a system of oppression of women. They generally pretend radical feminists don't exist, except for Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon, whose names they try to weld into keywords for "censorship," "anti-sex," and "bad kind of feminist."

Leftist publications do publish liberal feminists and leftist women, thanks in part to the pressures of the feminist movement. There's a tiny bit of space given to women in the Nation, a little bit more in Z Magazine, and a generous bit more in the Progressive. But whatever the ratio, all publishing access comes under the provisions of an underlying contract: "We will publish your writing. We will even allow you to be stars. Just don't go there -- where Catherine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin, and those nameless radical feminists go. That's taboo territory. Don't even think about respectfully engaging with these feminists. If you join their ranks, we will treat you the way we treat them. If you even look like their friend, you will no longer be welcome here. We will reward you, so long as you don't cross that line."

After decades of this divide-and-conquer strategy, radical feminists might hope that sexist men on the left would simply tire themselves out. After all, how can they keep pummeling those who are made invisible? How can they both bash and erase, year after year? How can they keep getting liberal and leftist women to follow their rules, almost without exception?

Unfortunately, no one is getting tired -- except perhaps radical feminists. Women who move in leftist and liberal publishing circles know the rules of the contract, and more and more of them make these rules their own. Many of them take the initiative to bash and erase the "bad feminists" (the two that exist) as a pledge of allegiance to the men and the system around them....

http://www.saidit.org/archives/jul01/mediaglance.html




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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 12:35 PM
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1. This is a very timely article, and it raises a lot of good points.
Edited on Wed Mar-01-06 12:36 PM by atommom
"Pro-sex" writers such as Hollibaugh and Allison have written extensively on the shame they were made to feel by "rigid" feminists because of their enjoyment of hierarchical and "taboo" sexuality. No doubt, there were many feminists who failed to make the distinction that Douglas makes, and carried their politics into others' personal territory -- judging, condemning, even excommunicating. By exposing and criticising such behavior, Allison and Hollibaugh have made an important contribution to the feminist movement. However, the legitimate objection to inappropriate peer pressures should not be used as an excuse to eliminate feminist analyses of the history, context, and larger meaning of what is called "pro-sex" from public debate.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 12:37 PM
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2. link page
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 01:06 PM
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4. Good links, thanks. n/t
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 01:02 PM
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3. Interesting but opposite of what I perceive.
The term "radical feminist" for example, used to describe anti-sex feminists.

I also disagree with pro-sex feminists being framed as sadomasochists and such.

I honestly find much of the language divisive and what I would expect from the other side of the spectrum. A progressive publication is not going to print rants or irrational and unfounded arguments.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 01:41 PM
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6. Something I was reading
I think it was something else - was trying to get to the idea that there are feminists who call themselves "Sex-positive" as if to suggest that other feminists are "Sex-negative". I would rather avoid such suggestions myself.

From what I can tell from people posting on the web - women who like to take on the patriarchy and traditional power structures (including the porn industry and such) call themselves "radical feminists" whereas women who emphasize freedom (perhaps in a more libertarian fashion) are the ones calling themselves "sex-positive".

It seems to me there are some issues where the two groups of feminists mix and some issues where they don't. There is a pretty big difference about some topics.

The radical feminists arguments do not strike me as "irrational and unfounded" - but they are certainly not mainstream - and if they are taking on traditional power structures - about the only avenue left are non-traditional venues - the blog world is good for that.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 02:01 PM
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7. I do not think rad fem arguments are irrational...quite the contrary,
and agree the definition should be those feminists who take on the patriarchy and traditional power structures.

I consider myself a rad fem but also take the libertarian stance as far as sexuality, reproduction, etc.

Fighting the porn industry as a whole(when much of it is run by women today)takes the movement back not forward. Fighting oppression as a whole I totally support, whether it is in porn, factories, religion, education, media.



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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 09:27 PM
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8. You make good points
It's not porn per se, I object to, but the dehumanizing of human beings sexually,-- especially women-- that is so very common. Porn apologists separate themselves from things like child porn, sexual slavery and the like, dening that there is any connection between "the industry" that caters to couples or single people making a choice, and the worldwide sadistic and violent oppression that is involved in the sex trade, as well as forced participation in pornography. We won't even go into the drug abuse or physical abuse. I get the arguement that those things are choices as well, to do drugs to the point of addiction, to stay and be abused, even I believe they are symptoms of a sickness in society or sometimes an individual. I've found most people don't want to know, and those profiting just deny it or dismiss it.
They'll take their enjoyment off the backs of the suffering as a civil right and damn any damage being done.

I wish there was a way to fight oppression, to fight the negative patriartical values without leftists saying things like "that's one things the fundies and feminists have in common they both hate porn"

Having some personal experience in "the industry" It's hard to listen to some of the crap people spout out in the name of first amendment rights. Nothing like a little personal experience to round out your opinions. (Been there, done that, and I call bullshit on a lot of it)

And then there is the whole subject of the grooming we do in this society with our young women. They're still being indoctriated that their primary value is thier sexuallity, and how appealing it is. We start 'em off young, they become active participants of the very partiartical system that damages women.

I've told this story here before, but as a very young women I was a chronic runaway and a "street kid" This was the 70's. Somebody was watching over me, because most of friends were the young male prostitutes also living on the street. Those young men saved my life. We were hearing whispers of of this disease, no one had heard of HIV or AIDs yet. (The boys were called "hustlers" The girls "whores or hookers" I've always found language a powerful influence on perception)
I found out nearly 25 years later that nearly every one of those young men died from AIDs. It's a much longer story, but I still blame "the patriarchy" for that demand for constant sexual access, whether it's women, men, girls, boys or babies. It's not the inherent sexuallity of humans itself, it the Demand by men(I'll day it one more time) for Constant Sexual Access. Women bear the crux of it but the damage by no means is limited to women. Maybe that needs to be part of the feminist message on this issue.

(Think I need to order that "this is what a radical feminist looks like tee shirt from NOW.)

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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 01:30 PM
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5. It's simple...
leftist men have no incentive to try to overthrow a patriarchal system from which they benefit.
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 10:54 AM
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9. Here's another interesting post on this subject.
This author is referring to what she calls "fuck-me-feminism", which I take to be a part of pro-sex feminism. I've never considered myself a rad fem, but I share her ambivalence on this issue. So maybe I am...

On one hand, I can’t help but lend at least some support to any movement where women are encouraged to embrace our sexuality and bring it out into the open on our terms. I’m fucking fed up living in a culture that regards a woman’s desire and willingness to have sex as some kind of failure of moral character. Think about the way the words “slut” and “whore” are used so flippantly in casual conversation. How often have we all heard someone (usually a man) utter the words “that dirty whore” or “that stupid slut” to indicate he is angry with a woman or dislikes her, regardless of how many men that woman has actually had sex with or whether that woman has ever taken money in exchange for sex? Intimating that a woman is promiscuous is one of the most aggregious insults you can bestow upon her. She is damaged. She is impure....

I can’t say I blame fuck me feminists for being pissed off about all of this. I myself am extraordinarily pissed off and tired of it. A big part of FMF is about saying “whoa, hold on a second. This ain’t cool. We want sex just as much as men and moreover, we demand the right to enjoy our sexuality in any way we deem fit without being made to feel fucking guilty and shameful about it. We’re claiming that right whether you like it or not, so you can fuck me or you can fuck off.” And I fully support that.

One of the big problems I have with FMF is the fact that, when all is said and done, it still frames female empowerment through sex in terms of the male standard and allows the sexual objectification of women and the valuation of women based on their worth as sexual objects to remain an accepted cultural imperative. For example, it has become widely fashionable for women to proclaim their love of pornography and to use pornography with their partners as part of their sex life. I’m sure some of them do honestly like it, but I’m sure there are also plenty who say they like it or convince themselves they like it despite a nagging voice inside screaming “this is fucked up” just to prove to their man how cool and liberated they are. A lot of people refute the feminist critique of porn by saying “but I know tons of women who love porn!”, as if the fact that some women like it or use it somehow nullifies any possible feminist objection to it. I find it difficult to accept the idea that reclaiming the use of pornography so that we are active consumers of it instead of just passive objects in it in any way lessens or justifies the degradation and subjugation of women it promotes. To draw an analogy, just because somebody is a prison kingpin who has the most influence over all the other prisoners, special consideration from the guards and has accrued personal gain by exploiting the micro-society inside prison walls doesn’t make him free.

I also generally think that the FMF movement is doing more to make the idea of feminism less threatening to men than it is to promote the sexual empowerment of women. It’s convenient not to have to voice any of the very unpleasant truths about sexual politics in this society because you’ve embraced them in the name of your own empowerment. After all, how can the face of feminism be scary to men when instead of trying to stop the consumption of women as a commodity, it’s telling men “carry on consuming, carry on objectifying, carry on degrading and I’ll just tag along for the ride because it’s so EMPOWERING.” Are FMFs embracing the short skirts and high heels, the strip clubs and porn videos, the one night stands and meaningless trysts because these things are truly expressions of their own sexuality, or because those particular expressions of sexuality satisfy male need and mens’ idea of what female sexuality is, and helps men drop the distinction between feminist and fuckable piece of ass? Are the women who proudly proclaim themselves fuck me feminists more interested in promoting acceptance of their sexuality or in gaining male acceptance?


http://saucebox.almeidaisgod.com/?p=76
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. "it’s telling men"
“carry on consuming, carry on objectifying, carry on degrading and I’ll just tag along for the ride because it’s so EMPOWERING.”


It's difficult to see how it would help - that it' not empowering. It's another way of going along (but maybe it's another way of connecting - see below).

It's interesting when a man steps into the debate to say - look people - this stuff is degrading - why are you leftists (esp. leftist men), of all people, going along with this?

And I suspect it's easier from the viewpoint of lesbians (than straight women) to say - look people - why are you going along with this crap? Like the viewpoint @ http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/02/03/art-vs-porn-for-some-reason-the-debate-rages-on/ or "Porn is the direct result of culturally-mandated misogyny" http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/01/07/in-the-morning-in-the-evening-aint-we-got-porn/


I wonder how much all this is related to a difference between people who see the culture/society as a system where we all affect each other and people who see themselves as individuals who are not connected. Even with sex they aren't connected. Porn doesn't connect them either. It seem to me - that more degrading the porn is - the more disconnected one would get - with more viewing. Kind of like of feedback loop or something. Use it more to connect - end up more disconnected, etc.
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It probably is easier for lesbians to see through the BS.
I can only speak for myself, but I think it's easier for me to call bullshit now than it would have been 20 years ago, when I was young and single. I'm not any more conservative now than I was then, but in some ways my viewpoint has shifted. These days I tend to think of the culture as an ecosystem that we all affect through our actions.
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