Re: Saving energy... I have to ask - Democratic Underground

supernova

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Tue Oct-27-09 03:27 PM
Original message

Re: Saving energy... I have to ask

it's getting to be a really weirrd spiral. Is capitalism supposed to work like this?

1) We look for ways to save energy, save on our energy bills.

2) The utility company even encourages this to a certain degree.

3) Because we use less energy, the utilities turn around and ask for rate increases?

I know that saving energy is good for the planet, but from a consumer perspective, it's a vicious circle. Eventually, we'll all be using about 500 watts/month and being charged about $100 per watt at this rate.

:silly:

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Warpy

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Tue Oct-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message

1. Rates will continue to go up

as the currency inflates. That is pretty much a given.

Being an energy miser can soften the blow. After all, a 5% increase on a $50/month bill is not nearly as bad as a 5% increase on a $200/month bill.

That's the reason to save energy. Cleaning up the air is one of the side benefits.

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kestrel91316

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Fri Oct-30-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message

2. I remember back in the day when my electric bill was $25 or so a month,

and I wasted electricity like there was no tomorrow.

Now I do everything humanly possible to conserve, and can't get the bill under $75.

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ConcernedCanuk

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Fri Oct-30-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2

3. One of the best ways to save on hydro is shut off the hot water heater

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not FOREVER, but frequently.

Think about it - even families with children do NOT need to heat 40 to 60 gallons of hot water constantly.

Plan showers, baths, dish-washing laundry etc. - and shut off the hot water heater in between -

you will be surprised how long there is lots of at least warm water for hand washing, etc.

Simple/cheap mode is to just shut off the breaker.

A more comfortable/slightly more expensive mode is to have an electrician hook in a remote switch - say in the kitchen or the bathroom.

An even more efficient, yet expensive solution is to install what they call an "on-demand" hot water heater - only has a small reserve, say 2 -5 gallons, - then heats the water quickly as needed . . .

something to ponder

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lizziegrace

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Sun Nov-01-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #3

4. I've done two things

wrapped the hot water in an insulating blanket and I turn it off at the breaker. With planning, I've been able to go 2 days without needing to fire it up. My daughter moved home after college and it makes it more complicated. I remember one morning she was in the shower and had to get to work. We ran out of hot water. She was not amused... ;)

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elocs

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Sun Nov-01-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #3

5. I've found that for me the savings of shutting off my hot water heater is insignificant

and not worth the bother. I've tried this and found just from a convenience aspect it wasn't worth it either from the times when I wanted to take a shower and there was little or no hot water.

Check out this site: http://www.leaningpinesoftware.com/hot_water_heater_vacation.shtml

Complete with graphs and science it shows how turning off the hot water heater for an 8.5 day vacation results in a savings of 24 cents. Yes, that's less than a quarter and I would gladly pay that to have the water hot when I need it, especially when I forget to turn the hot water heater back on.

The on-demand hot water heater does work well provided you do not have hard water or use a water softener if you do. I have some friends in the Chicago area who use that and it works well even in their 2 story house. There is always hot water, shower after shower.

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ConcernedCanuk

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Tue Nov-10-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #5

8. It depends alot on the climate.

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Up in Northern Ontario where basement locations are fairly cool - it makes quite a difference.

I suspect many hot-water heaters are not R-16 as the example states.

ALSO

when one HAS to schedule their hot water usage

one naturally consumes less.

We don't use gallons of hot water just to degrease our dishes, we don't let it run unnecessarily, etc., etc.

When one is inconvenienced - one CONSERVES.

AND PLANS AHEAD.

not bad habits per se . .

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kristopher

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Mon Nov-16-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #5

10. I understand that analysis but I'm not sure is it comprehensive enough

We are talking about a change in behavior that has consequences for years to come, not a single vacation. By presenting a very narrow picture of the benefit, the article is framing the outcome in a way that is more appropriate to someone who is looking for an excuse not to do anything differently than it is for someone who is serious about the overall effect of their decision to take action.

This is what the DOE's National Renewable Energy Lab has to say:

Install a Timer and Use Off-Peak Power for Electric Water Heaters
Illustration of a water heater showing the thermostat with a timer dial connected just below.

If you have an electric water heater, you can save an additional 5%–12% of energy by installing a timer that turns it off at night when you don't use hot water and/or during your utility's peak demand times.

You can install a timer yourself. They can cost $60 or more, but they can pay for themselves in about 1 year. Timers are most cost effective if you don't want to install a heat trap and insulate your water heater tank and pipes. Timers aren't as cost effective or useful on gas water heaters because of their pilot lights.

Contact your utility to see if it offers a demand management program. Some utilities offer "time of use" electricity rates that vary according to the demand on their system. They charge higher rates during "on-peak" times and lower rates during "off-peak" times. Some even offer incentives to customers who allow them to install control devices that shut off electric water heaters during peak demand periods. These control devices may use radio signals that allow a utility to shut off a water heater remotely anytime demand is high. Shut-off periods are generally brief so customers experience no reduction in service.

I participate in a demand management program. It has not inconvenienced us at all in over 15 years, and I have recieved $540 in credit over that time on my electric bill.

The timer is much harder to calculate, but it is unquestionably much better than the article you link to suggests.

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Warpy

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Sun Nov-01-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #3

6. I have a gas heater that's a pain in the ass to light

so I turned it down to the lowest setting, 120 degrees.

I find that's plenty hot for showers and washing dishes by hand.

It also saves a bundle.

The water heater is on its last legs and won't last much longer. Then I'm going tankless.

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supernova

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Tue Nov-03-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #6

7. I replaced a decrepit WH last year

and it has lowered my bills

I would go tankless, but they run on gas, which I'm reluctant to use for safety reasons.

You're right about the temp. Mine is set to 120 and it's plenty hot enough for bathing and laundry. The dishwasher has its own heating element so it still sanitizes the dishes.

I am seriously considering a way to have solar HW and HVAC, but it is still cost prohibitive.

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kristopher

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Mon Nov-16-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #3

9. You can also put it on a timer. nt

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meeshrox

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Sat Mar-06-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message

11. Yes, I've noticed that too...

and they do that with water, also! Why the hell would non-environmentalist-people even bother? I conserve every resource possible for the principle of the matter...but water/electricity/natural gas rates keep going up...

Boils down to the "shareholders" of the companies...utilities should not be a capitalist venture...

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Kolesar

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Tue Apr-20-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message

12. 3a) we use less energy, so the utility does not have to build expensive new plants

...that would otherwise increase our rates.

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