Tin Foil Time Out - Was Mcgovern A Set Up?

I agree with all those praising the recent outbreak of televised individuals speaking truth to power players. Colbert deservedly earns the hero of the week award for not only allowing this administration and media failings to become so highlighted but for doing so with a comedic style that not all are so blessed with.

I rarely post granted but I've read from other posters that this new outspoken questioner has close ties to poppy bush and it's no secret that there is little love lost between Rums field and poppy, could he have in fact instructed Mcgovern to pose this question in a forum that was sure to garner national attention?

And if I hear one more poster declare the Dem's have never dared question this administration and it's cabinet of criminals I will scream, watch some cspan sometime for those of you who believe all Dem's to be mealy mouthed scare dy cats with no voice.

Just because the major network news talking heads don't show clips of those Dem's calling these criminals just that and much more does not make it true that they have not both in the past and present...

I cannot recall names but I have seen many Dem's tell these re pubs exactly what they think of their tactics that are destroying this country and it's government for the people by the people..

End of opinion, carry on the good fight Dur's your the best friend every good American could ever hope to find even with the disrupting infantile infiltrators...

GHW Bush?

That's interesting.

There has been a lot of mention made about the tension between Poppy's group and Duby'as snub of Poppy's group.

But Poppy's rolodex is still pretty current, is my guess.

I came away with the impression that Rumsfeld, although he is smart, is not as intelligent as Ray McGovern. And that Rumsfeld doesn't lie as well as McGovern tells the truth.

junior bushcohort, they seemed very chummy and I have seen them laughing together in an audience when poppy bush was speaking to the masses as if neither cared what he had to say..that image always stayed in my mind...

Is it inconceivable that perhaps junior was required to do a certain duty as were other players involved and perhaps have gotten too big for their britches and so the 'terminator" has been called in to clean house so that they can once again find the footing to finish whatever it is they begun so long ago?

Sounds like a crazy little theory huh? And yes I agree that this RAy McGovern seems extremely more intelligent than Rummy, which makes it all more worth wondering at the timing.

the liars and thieves running the White House these days.

And if they happen to pop up in Atlanta, well, that's good, too.

You put a provocative menu in front of us tonight with this one.

another poster that something is not as it seems....

If McGovern has been going on for so long vocally against power, how come it is only now he becomes national interest?

I think of George Senior as a president who ran an effective ship, who weighed the options
of his actions, it may be that he is trying to salvage his son's administration by
having competent people replace some of the key people; it would be an improvement,
these are desperate days.

he is likely to find ways to silence or oust any who dares to read from another script which includes his own flesh and blood, one must take into account this man's background and actions in the past, he may seem fairly quiet in the shadow of his sons outing but I have never doubted for one moment that he will not allow disquiet among the ranks and woe to he who strays...

But I think that he should have helped more with the extreme problems of his son's administration, by 04, even the most obtuse would have realized there were real problems,
then why the smiley face, he could have whispered in a few influential ears and had him
limited to 1 term.

of criminals in power, its a risky move to attack it's own, but I feel that things have gotten out of control and the power once obtained is now shaky and in danger of falling away into the shadows once again, what comes next?

Damage control.

If you go on the ultra-conservative blogs, they have been talking for months about rounding up
the criminals both in the cabinet and in the Congress. They know that the entire infrastructure
is on the edge of very thin ice. I read that the postal increase has gone into effect because
Bush swooped in, took their surplus for Iraq and now they must pass a rate increase to meet
expenses. And there are those who believe that GWB could "save" social security. Where do
you suppose the money is coming from to build the Iraq US embassy which will be 80 football
fields in size, I don't remember Congress approving this.

And yet the media is pretty quiet on the subject, things that make you go hmmmmmm.

The department Ray heads at the School deals with the biblical injunction to “speak truth to power,” and this, together with his experience in intelligence analysis, accounts for his various writings and media appearances over the past year. His focus dovetails nicely with the passage carved into the marble entrance to CIA Headquarters: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”—the ethic mandating that CIA analysts were to “tell it like it is” without fear or favor.

In January 2003, when it became clear that that ethic was in serious jeopardy, a handful of intelligence community alumni/ae, including Ray, created Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. VIPS now includes over 35 former professionals from CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Department of State’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research, Army Intelligence, the FBI, and the National Security Agency. VIPS’ first effort (of ten thus far) was a same-day critique of Secretary of State Colin Powell’s address to the UN on February 5.

In addition to co-authoring some of VIPS’ issuances, Ray has published some 20 op-eds over the past year on intelligence-related issues. These have appeared in newspapers and journals around the country like The Birmingham News, The Boston Globe, The Christian Science Monitor, The Miami Herald, Die Sueddeutsche Zeitung, The International Herald Tribune, and Der Berliner Tagespiegel, for example.

Over the past several months, he and his VIPS colleagues have made numerous TV, radio and lecture appearances in the US and Europe. They also have appeared in several recent video documentaries—notably, “Uncovered: the Whole Truth About the Iraq War” (Robert Greenwald) and “Break the Silence: Truth and Lies in the War on Terror” (John Pilger).

http://faculty.schreiner.edu/tomwells/ray_mcgovern_bio.htm

Bush did not invade Iraq though those in his base surely wanted him to, its well known as well that he did not favor this recent invasion by his son though he never publically acknowledged his dissaproval, there are many factions and many faces to these power groups...

Thank you for sharing this article.

again by these little miracles that seem to be popping up more and more lately, why now? Its been pretty obvious for some time that things are pretty rotten in Denmark by even the lamest of minds.

it would be something a lot more sinister.

the majority of citizens in this country have been woken up from the daze of stupity, one must be more careful on how they silence those that are not obeying completely, I think Rummy as his master have become nothing more than a snag in whatever game plan has been going on for some time.

he is a true American patriot. To think otherwise demeans what he did.

I'm sorry, but thinking this was a setup...just plain ridiculous.

is what is seems these days....

I do agree that he is an American Patriot though, it doesn't lessen his speaking out to power to me in the least, I just cannot in all honesty think that the timing is suspect..

I'm sorry honestly if that offends you.

:shrug:

I felt the need to speak up now I don't know.

rove planted him, now rummy will be gone...

you never know AuntPatsy, you never know. :D

or a handgun, or a coke handgun!


or you could donate $4.20 to the http://www.johnhallforcongress.com/index.html Hall campaign! :~)

I was fortunate to hear him speak tonight as he was being honored at an ACLU dinner. He told us that over the years he has been asked many times if he would recommend someone join the CIA, and he has always asked in return "Do you feel courageous? Do you believe in integrity?" But that lately he has also added that if you do choose to join, after you sign the required security agreement promising not to divulge anything about your job, that you- following the example of GW Bush- add a "signing statement" indicating that nothing in the above statement should be construed as restricting your right to divulge information you deem necessary.

He's going to be speaking again at the Friend's Meetinghouse in Decatur for those of you in the Atlanta area. PM me if you want more info.

I think he's a hero, not a pawn.

he did if he did not in all honesty feel it had to be done, but still, why now? Why not last week? Why not last year? The man from all I am reading about him and hearing from those that have met him is not only intelligent but mindful of how he acts and what he speaks...

I don't believe in conincidences these days especially when someone that is involved has close ties with a member of a certain group...

I still applaud him you know, its never too late.

Was McGovern coming to Atlanta for Rumsfeld and the ACLU decided to take advantage of the opportunity and honor him? Or was McGovern coming for the ACLU and decided to take advantage of the Rummy appearance? Or are you saying that Poppy arranged the ACLU thing too?

I have a tin foil hat too, but sometimes ya' just gotta loosen the chin strap a little! But whatever, somebody should always be checking the bona fides.
:hi:

you think his handlers would be more watchful such as they are with his boss who by the way he is extremely close to...and the boss himself is finding himself in such positions, considering the way he demands to be shielded, don't you wonder how some of those anti bushites even get within one foot of him?

Don't forget to what lenghts he and others have gone through in the past to ensure complete agreeability from their audiences, whomever used to stage these live events is getting lax..

Why now?

Most recently I remember him testifying before them about the little Society of Friends anti-war group being spied on, for the NSA hearing (the first one, with only Democrats.)

He has a long record proving he is "one of the good guys."

the attention he is getting from the msm one needs to always keep an open mind, after all, its not like they have given that much up in support of those against this administration...

:kick: and R for your thoughts. Never underestimate Poppy!

how dangerous that can be, what they have gotten away with these past several years just blows my mind, never seen anything like it.

et al are not nice people, but they were more subtle about their nefarious deeds. This crowd, Rove (who was fired by Bush Sr.) Abramoff, Delay et al, are more openly arrogant, and more wreckless in implementing their New World Order scenarios.

I remember reading about three years ago that Bush Sr. in a speech he gave, actually said that his son needed to be less arrogant, or words to that effect. I think it was right before the war. I doubt he was happy about invading Iraq, not because they didn't want to, but the were more realistic about it, imo.

As far as Ray McGovern and other intelligence people who have been in opposition to Bush ~ I think that after they outed Valerie Plame and her organization, they were enraged. It was the ultimate betrayal because they knew she was undercover, and may have known about her work, and her cover company.

I remember that the CIA did a damage assessment after they realized her cover was blown but we never saw the results of that. There were stories that at least one agent had died, and maybe foreign 'collaborators' also. If that's the case, then I can understand their anger. They must view all of these people as traitors.

One other clue to that possibility was the judge in the Judith Miller case. He was very reluctant to throw a reporter in jail, but after Fitzgerald showed him some documents, he said that 'this is a crime of such magnitude' he was convinced that Judith Miller needed to cooperate. That could mean that the judge was shown the damage assessment.

I do think it's odd that all of a sudden, this administration has been exposed to so many dissenters when previously no one who disagreed with them could get near them.

It's possible that Bush Sr. et al, may be furious with Bush and his administration, but he might try to save his son. He always did in the past. Bush Sr. was also in the CIA. Maybe they realize that the administration is in legal trouble and it's possible that they are doing things behind the scenes.

It's something to think about, that Bush Sr. may be facilitating getting rid of Rummy before he gets indicted for war crimes.

sure he does no jail time, thats a given, but he can never ensure that his son's presidency accomplished anything more than the destruction of our country's credibility around the world just to name one.

Interesting informative post, thank you.

Maybe Colbert and his comedy bit at an invited and uninterrupted pulpit spoiled your perspective.

McGovern's words were an obvious confrontation by a truely brave man with 27 years of CIA under his belt. He took on a pulpit-bully and won..he used calm logic to tear apart one of the most despicable figures of this administration.

And I say allowed because its pretty obvious hes been well protected until very recent.

And you didn't subsequently address that.

Granted, this administration is at war with those in the intelligence community that won't sign on to the neocon fantasy, but I wonder if it goes a little deeper.

The modern day CIA is largely Poppy's baby....hell, they named the new complex after him. How much of his problems with CIA is based on remaking it in his image? Getting rid of Dad's cronies and installing his own yes people? I sense that George the Dimmer has shut his father out of his administration. No amount of pressure from the "old" guard seems to sink in on George, Jr. Is it some opedial thing? A lifetime of living behind his Dad's shadow, Dad fixing his problems has made the neer-do-well determined not to heed Dad and do everything different. I'm sure, at the sub-conscious level, we are witnessing a complex psychological drama playing out between Bush generations. Taking out Saddam must be, at some level, showing up his father. The more screwed up things get, the more isolated Georgie is becoming. I really wonder if he's headed for a nervous breakdown. There polls must be affecting him...probably not in a very good way, either.

outshine daddy and it's obvious he has once again proven he will always be a failure and in my eyes, it makes him even more dangerous to remain holding such a powerful position, perhaps poppy bush though no saint realizes his son needs to be shut down.

If it was a staged situation, I don't think Donald Rumsfeld was a part of the set up. He appeared too caught off guard.

What was interesting was what I thought was canned applause after Rumsfeld said he didn't lie. That seemed manufactured applause to me.

Whatever the case, I guess we'll probably never know, but I wondered the same thing.

That is why there was applause for Rumsfeld. It's "manufactured" only in the sense that the audience is not by accident.

And he appeared "caught off guard" because he was being questioned by a 27 year vet of the CIA, in a brave and unflinching fashion.

What is your evidence for that statement, or is it sheer invention?

Biography
McGovern was a CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990 and during the 1960s his responsibilities included analysis of Soviet policy toward Vietnam. At this time, he worked near the very top of his profession, giving direct advice to Henry Kissinger during the Nixon era. He was one of President Ronald Reagan's intelligence briefers from 1981-85 when he was in charge of preparing the President’s daily security brief.

He also briefed President George Herbert Walker Bush in the White House in the 1980’s, and counts himself a personal friend of Bush Sr.

when VIPS was founded in January, 2003? That is a very tight tinfoil hat you are wearing, maybe too tight. One would think, if your "hypothesis" is true, that Chimpy Senior might have done a bit more to keep his Oedipus-complexed offspring from regaining power in 2004, if (politically) killing off his rival was the goal.

mind and though like you, I have seen this from day one, perhaps his father was hopine he could keep him in line, maybe it was juniors standing by rummy and refusing to fire him when the generals came out, it would conicide with the timing happening now..

Pehaps the father was trying to save the son but wanted rummy out and his son refuses to follow this one particular order?

Who knows.

I think he has betrayed his son and the lack of intervention by his father either makes me think George Sr.wanted it this way or he simply doesnt care.

Why hasn't Senior done anything to save his son from sinking? Is his own ego enjoying seeing his son fail? He could have repeatedly helped George Jr. and never has. To me that speaks more than anything George Jr. does.

I think George Sr. is to blame light years more than his son is.

George Jr. has from what I have observed, been used and exploited (yes in some ways willingly) by some in the Republican party who essentially forced him to run for this presidency, which by all accounts, he did not want to.

That would probably include his own father.

McGovern has too much integrity to be close to the Bush crime family.

Biography

McGovern was a CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990 and during the 1960s his responsibilities included analysis of Soviet policy toward Vietnam. At this time, he worked near the very top of his profession, giving direct advice to Henry Kissinger during the Nixon era. He was one of President Ronald Reagan's intelligence briefers from 1981-85 when he was in charge of preparing the President’s daily security brief.

He also briefed President George Herbert Walker Bush in the White House in the 1980’s, and counts himself a personal friend of Bush Sr.

clip on CNN tonight. I had no idea about the relationship to Poppy though. Interesting.

granted when it comes to what gets actually air time.

all his facts in order. He managed to ruffle Rummy's feathers. Rummy was speechless there for just a moment. Things sure aren't looking too good for Donny lately.

why is it only now he finds himself in the limelight in a national wide viewed forum asking the questions that should have been asked long ago.

That would imply its essentially all being censored.

Ray McGovern has been speaking out for a long time now. You might remember he was one of the panelists during Conyer's 'hearing' on the Downing Street Memo. He also got in trouble for insinuating that neocons are a little to beholding to AIPAC.

I think old Ray was in town for a special ACLU dinner and thought: "What the hell. I'll mosey on down and see if they'll let me in the audience for Rummy."

And what do you know? They let him in. :)