An appeal to reconsider your V for Vendetta Avatars

I make every effort not to judge others, and I am not about to tell anyone what to do. But I really, really do not like these V for Vendetta avatars I see people using. I was very disappointed by this movie, and think that it completely missed capturing the essence of the struggle against a totalitarian government a la 1984.

The characters do not feel real, and do not react in a manner characteristic of what should be a society dominated by death, torture, and fear. V is also a horribly flawed, inhuman character that somehow seems to be able to completely detach his mind and psyche from all the brutal and merciless killing he does.

This in essence completely destroys the heart of the movie. As soon as V starts making trouble, you see the citizens immediately start doubting and mocking the government. The horror and fear associated with living in a police state simply doesn't exist in this movie. The gruesome, fairly well done tale of the government killing and torturing its people does not at all mesh wish the society that is actually seen throughout the movie.

And this totalitarian government is pathetically inept. The citizens are not scared of the government. The police forces are an absolute joke. The government appears to have very few if any safeguards built into their propaganda network, nor the ability to pull the plug on a comedy host ridiculing the leadership. Somehow the government has failed to notice their hire ups are being systematically executed one by one. For some reason or other the detective manages to go about doing whatever he wishes without any real accountability, and again seems to have no fear of this terrorizing government. In other words, there is once again a very troublesome disconnect.

Then there is V. Damn that guy talks a lot. The effectiveness of dialogue is completely lost when the character simply spews an endless length of famous and profound quotes, in the hopes that one or two of them will catch with the audience every now and then. His mind defies all logic and reason. Given his experiences, and his actions of executing all his prior tormentors, he should be a sociopathic killing machine seeking death and revenge, and perhaps the downfall of the government. Yet somehow during all his time with Natalie Portman he manages to be charming, empathetic, and thoughtful. I have spent significant time with Iraq veterans and other service members that are very fucked up. One cannot knowingly kill other human beings without losing a part of themselves in the process.

So my question is what is the point of these V avatars? Whatever the reasons are, this movie is surely not the rallying cry for liberals to gather round for revolution. This movie only provides ammunition to supporters of the bush administration, and will not convince anyone that does not already agree with its message. An accurate portrayal of 1984 without the strong political undercurrent present in V for Vendetta could have done wonders. But unfortunately, that is not this movie.

Are you advocating violence to retake the government as in the movie? How much did you like watching V torture Natalie Portman? Is torture acceptable? Do the ends justify the means? Do you really think this movie accurately portrays reality? Do you really think there is some profound meaning hidden in this movie? Have you every truly seen lethal violence first hand? I have not, but I have seen it's aftereffects, and they are horrible. If a movie is going to use copious amounts of violence, it had better have a damned good reason.

Perhaps read 1984. Maybe study up on North Korea, the Soviet Union, and Nazi Germany. And some reading about post traumatic stress disorder and Iraq war veterans might be good. Take a look at all the lovely photos from Iraq, and hell, watch the torture videos on the jihadist sites, and then please explain to me why of all the millions of images in the world this particular one is most effective in expressing who you are.

Violence is a seductive siren that leads to suffering and death. It is very rare for no other alternative to remain, and in that rare case, even rarer that the benefits will outweigh the tragic losses. I know its been a long 5 years, and nerves are frayed, but do not allow yourself to become that which you detest. DU is special to me because of the love and kindness I see in so many of it's members.

:)

If you don't like the flick, then don't use the avatar.

But, some people liked it, so let them like it.
Remember, it's a movie. It's entertainment.
Relax. Enjoy life.

Peace.

No... I somehow imagine this would not be tolerated long term. And were someone in the position of being offended by my hypothetical sastika avatar, they ought to attempt to enlighten me as to why they find it bothersome.

I am not telling anyone else what to do. I am simply expressing my opinion, in the hopes that maybe others might be able to see my viewpoint, or perhaps that I might understand what it is that I missed in this movie. And for the most part, I am a pretty relaxed, content person, but I care about this one. If nobody else agrees, so be it, and I'll deal with it. But to me this movie stands against everything the liberal cause should embrace.

edit: cause I'm sleepy and can't write coherently

Peace. Goodnight. Hope this isn't taken the wrong way, but I do think I have a valid point.

of Apples and Oranges as I have ever seen on this board,

And again, you are completly off base about the movie, as you are with the swastika reference. Hopefully someone will go into detail as to why, because honetly I do not wish to waste any time on this. AT ALL.

All I did was attempt to logically refute a notion that anyone is entitled to choose whatever avatar they wish. If an avatar is hurtful and offensive to someone, a person would likely want to know about it. Since I can see how it might be easy not to see this with the V avatar, I am simply stating my position on the issue. I find it offensive. No there is no comparison between a swastika and the V avatar... but to me both would be hurtful... with the swastika of course being far far worse.

I cannot imagine I am the only one irritated by this movie. To me this movie only muddies the waters.

It's an absurd reference to use, and to use it as a reference is.....Dear God you make my head hurt.

The comparison of the V mask to the swastika in terms of offensiveness is simply absurd. They don't even belong in comparison.

And if a V mask could cause you to make such a reference, I'm sorry but you have issues I can't help you with.

You certainly aren't the only one irritated by this movie I am sure. But to be so irritated it causes you to make requests of this nature to accommodate you?

Um, seek help. Seriously.

That should fix it. I have not, did not, and will not compare the two.

I have asked no one to accommodate me. I specifically chose the word appeal

According to m-w.

4 : the power of arousing a sympathetic response :

All I am asking is for you to consider my point of view. Now that I have a slightly better understanding in what some of the people choosing to use this avatar see behind it, I am more ok with it. But all I was every trying to do was evoke a thoughtful response in which the reader would either disagree with me and continue their use of the avatar, or say, you know, I never thought about it like that and maybe there's something to it. As with anyone that makes an argument, I would prefer and have made every effort to attempt to convince the reader to see my viewpoint. But if the reader disagrees that is the end of it. I just wanted to make my case.

to reconsider using an Avatar for the SOLE reason that it offends you, and you were expecting a THOUGHTFUL response?

Your argument was weak from the outset, as you admit, and your approach was one that people were going to logically view as abrasive. The first reaction many would have to a request like that is "Who the hell do you think you are asking us all to consider not using the avatar just because it offends you?" Your approach was flawed from the beginning.

A better approach would have been to start a thoughtful debate about the movie, your viewpoints on it, and ask others to share theirs, in order to try to understand their viewpoints better and maybe see things from a perspective you may have missed.

Instead, you kind of waltzed in here making an absurd request, and stated in a not so thinly veiled way that your viewpoint about the movie was the right one, and that everyone else was off base and missing your grand point, and warning us all of the dangers of "romanticizing" the film, which in your mindcan do nothing but aid the Bush Administration. You presume way too much here.

I think you would have no problem finding people to have a thoughtful debate about the film, me included. But this was not the approach to use.

Yes. And I got a thoughtful response from nearly every post I have read... including yours.

No. I admitted that my argument as to whether this movie could help Bush is perhaps weak. But I still think valid. And I stand by all my other points.

Abrasive? Sure it crossed my mind. But if you really read my words all I have done is put forth a logical argument as to why I think using this avatar is not consistent with the liberal message. I have not demanded or even asked members to remove this avatar. I have put forth the best argument I could as to why I disagree with its use. The next action is the readers choice.

Remove their V avatar, add a V avatar, go watch the V movie, flame me, report me, kindly explain why I'm wrong. Whatever. That was the entire point.

I meant no offense, and I truly did want to know why people use this avatar, and I have gained that. So thank you.

You continuosly admit your argument is weak, but it is till valid. Fascinating.

As for standing by your other points, duly noted. And I still disagree.

It crossed your mind you were being abrasive but you kept the same approach? The argument you put forth describing why you thought we should quit using it was thoughful in the fact it was wordy, but that didn't make the request any more valid or reasonable. To simplify, you wanted us to stop using it because it offends you.

But instead of making such a request, you should have taken the approach I suggested. Sans request. You would have gotten the same results of understanding their use. I think it was a little far fetched to think anyone would stop using the avatar because it offended you.

If you say you meant no offense, I wil give you the benfit of the doubt, of course. With suspicion, but it is granted.

If anything I hope you come away from this with a better understanding of the movie. Because you were way off base about that.

In fact in regards to the movie NOT being what many people believe it to be I agree with him totally. It was a totally unrealistic view of a type of totalitarianism that does not exist, and I suspect never existed. And even then it manages to get it wrong inregards to how easy it would be to foment a revolution.

As a mindless action movie it was pretty good - but as a means of generating some sort of understanding of oppression and the need to fight it, it was a total flop.

Evidence to the contrary not withstanding.

It's traditionally a symbol of peace. The Nazis perverted it.

It has had a number of different meanings in different contexts. And even for the same meanings, some people find it offensive, and others find it a reason to be proud and celebrate its meaning to them. They aren't celebrating that it offends others, or celebrating a warped attitude to others. Then I could understand its offensiveness. Someone sporting a Nazi swastika aiming to P.O. Jewish folks around him WOULD be offensive. There's a difference there.

Most people that have the V icon aren't worshipping of violence. I know I'm not! So for me it's not symbolizing what you interpret it to be. Some people are offended by nude people walking in front of them. Some want to go to nude beaches and feel liberated by being near nude people. You really can't expect everyone to have the same perspective you have on things. It might also help to try and understand the meaning better and how they feel it means to them rather than just judging on your narrow interpretation of such symbolism. That's what hurts us when people judge gay people, black people, etc. When they let their own perceptions dictate what should and shoudn't be without considering the thoughts of others.

explanations. :)

You have more patience than I. :)

The way you have expressed things in this thread is how I feel as well, but for some reason, these days I have noticed my angst over our ever deteriorating situation in our government, culture, and society have left me with such a paper thin patience at times, I can't seem to take the time to express things the way that you are demonstrating here.

I think we are reaching a boiling point that is affecting us all, and unfortunately, one of the major casualties as we go further along in descent will be our willingness to reach out to one another and take the time to reason and express our viewpoints in an attempt to make each other have a better understanding. I know I have displayed such guilt of late.

Thanks for being an example of how one should try to approach things in discussion. :)

As for me, this is one of those days.....

...commits violence. The rest simply show up to watch, in such numbers that they find force unnecessary.

The movie shows what a monster V himself is. V acknowledges this, in so many words, and presumably this is why he chooses to die.

I know that I don't get to tell people what they should find offensive, but I think that the original poster has missed a lot in this symbolism. Count me as one who abhors violence and who has also worried about the use of this avatar--for similar reasons--but having actually seen the movie I understand the good place the avatar comes from.

...is also an image used in an Eastern religion called Fulan Gong. The point is, a symbol, any symbol, only has the meaning you give it. So for some it means death and destruction, for others it represents peace.

The swastika and confederate flag represent two very horrible times in history when many suffered and died. That happened and hopefully we have learned from it. But why do we continue to give these symbols the power to cause pain? I don't like these symbols and will say so if I see them. But, they have caused enough pain and I won't allow them to cause even a ripple of stress inside of me. That's my choice.

Nothing can offend you unless you give it the permission to do so.

I also invite you to consider this quote:

'Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.' - John Fitzgerald Kennedy

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No... I ask you to consider my opinion. The very first thing I stated is I am not going to tell anyone else what to do. And I am not and I will not. But I would ask you to consider that I do find it offensive, and surely there are others that feel the same.

Yes. I like DU. I am what might be known as a lurker. Granted even for the time I have not been registered, it won't add up to more than 3 or 4 months. I have learned a lot reading through some of the more well written posts. I am relatively young still, and there are many members here than have seen things and experienced things that I have yet to or never will. That have insights or thoughts that might not otherwise have come to me. No I do not know many people here yet, and hardly anyone if anyone knows me, but I can tell there are a lot of good people here. And somehow in these ugly times, and in the ugly mucky business of politics, many members here appear to have retained their sense of humor, hope, and love, which is something I struggle with and admire. Yes I like DU... I'm am sorry if you do not believe I am sincere in that.

A hostile reaction is fine. I can take it. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and thank you for the response.

But if you find them that offensive, I think asking all of us to reconsider us using them to accommodate you is a rather tall request (to be as diplomatic as I can about it), and a rather unreasonable one. And it is interesting that you are so certain others feel the same way, because you are the only person I know that has EVER made a request like that concerning that specific avatar.

And usually I would take the time to point out where you were wrong about the movie, but this line made me lose complete interest in doing so:

"This movie only provides ammunition to supporters of the bush administration, and will not convince anyone that does not already agree with its message."

This kind of reasoning I don't bother with. Perhaps the second part you might have traction with, but too many trolls who come to this board often include the rhetoric about "X or Y only aids the Bush Administration and the Republicans, and makes us look radical."

To me that's a red flag, and it makes me immediately question your motivations. Perhaps I am wrong about you, but I have been right about such things FAR more than I have been wrong. I suppose time will tell if you are genuine. If not, you'll get a Tombstone soon enough.

But this nonsense about by liking this movie we support violent revolution is just that. Utter nonsense.

I don't think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that truly advocates that or wants that to happen.

The great majority of us want to see Bush and this government REMOVED from office. Legally and Peacefully.

But you also need to wake up and realize that the option to do is is becoming more endangered and limited by the hour, and it may disappear soon. Look at the legislation they have passed to safeguard their power structure they have put in place. Look at Patriot Act I and II. READ THEM. NSA Wiretapping. AT & T Snooping on us unabated without our knowledge. Bush basically saying he doesn't have to follow ANY law if he doesn't feel like it. Two stolen elections, and a growing Electronic Voting Infrastructure that pretty much Guarantees they will do it again.

No one wants it to come to the worst, but I am also going to add that if you are not willing to fight for your country and it's survival should it come to that, then you have no business judging anyone. AT ALL.

Or have you forgotten how this country was founded?

You reconsidered. You thought about it. You disagreed. I have not and will not ever demand anyone change these avatars. All I wanted is to express my point of view, and perhaps attempt to better understand the point of view of others who disagree with me, while at the same time being open to moderating my point of view, which has already moderately significantly being able to see how others feel.

Yes I think this movie could help the Bush administration. I did not elaborate on that as my post was already very long winded. V for Vendetta portrays a totalitarian police state. It also has many links to our society at present time. The question though is where one places our society at present on the path of a decent toward fascism. If the liberal crowd in general were to, in the spirit of this movie, place us much further in the decent than we are at present, it would tarnish the reputation of the messenger because to the mainstream public liberals would not appear to have an accurate portrayal of reality.

Now even without mistakenly judging the world, but by embracing a movie which portrays a 1984ish world, and being associated with it and claiming to like and support it, it provides ammunition to paint liberals in general as out of touch, extremists, as well as opening a window to claim liberals in some way agree with torture, terrorism, and violence which are also key parts of this movie.

I realize that is a bit of a weak argument, but that is/was the basis behind that claim. No matter what one does broad brush tactics can be used to paint any group into a corner. But if you can empathize with my problems and concerns about this movie, and then see these masks all over the place here, perhaps you can see what troubles me? ;)

Yes there are surely others who agree with me or have concerns. Hell there are lots of people who like what Bush is doing... so that's not really that spectacular of a claim. Yes I'm well aware of all the horrible things the Bush admin is doing, and that is yet another reason I like DU is because I can mesh that with my other regular news sources to scoop up all the stuff that goes through the cracks.

Thanks for your time. Peace.

Not for a second.

And I ridiculed you for making such an unreasonable request.

As for your argument, at least you admit it is a very weak one. And as such, I wonder why you even bothered making it, or defending it. But I do not discourage you from having it all the same. I hope others will be able to enlighten you to where you are wrong.

As far as where we currently are in society at this time, I would think that V For Vendetta should if anything serve to show you where we are going to be IF we do not manage to stop the course we are on.

"Yes I'm well aware of all the horrible things the Bush admin is doing"

Really? If that is true then you would readily admit that out of the 14 characteristics of Fascism, this current regime we are living under fits neatly into ALL 14.

We are much further along than you think, and much further along in our descent then you seem to be comfortable with letting yourself believe.

Your country, OUR country is in it's 11th hour. In order to understand the point of view of those who disagree with you, it would probably help for you to have a better understanding of exactly where we are right now in our descent toward fascism, as opposed to where you would like to believe we are.

Like I said, we all want a legal peaceful resolution to the problems we currently face.

However, if such remedies disappear, I am not going to roll over and not pursue every available option. You can make of that statement what you will.

And there is MUCH more to the V mask than you know. Your understanding of what it meant is horribly shallow. Not that you'd see the movie again, but you should read Moore's Graphic Novel, and then revisit the movie. You are completely missing it's point.

to disagree with it. That you might not have ever considered my argument reasonable is valid.

Yes perhaps it was a weak argument. I laid it out to explain that I wasn't just making stuff up and had a reason for it. If I had everything figured out for myself, I wouldn't be here trying to learn.

Yes. I am incredibly bothered by the actions of the administration and the disregard for the Constitution. And in fact, I have not laid out how far down the path we are. Are you attempting to judge my position on the Bush administration simply by my being offended by these avatars and not liking the movie? I see no connection myself. But we are not a police state, yet and to believe so would be naive. That is part of what concerns me with these avatars.

For some reason you seem to believe I do not have a grasp of current events. I think my understanding is fairly competent, but besides that, you have no relevant information with which to judge my understanding about the risk to this country, unless you somehow think these last couple hours of logic games are adequate evidence.

We are very far off from needing a violent resolution. And unless there is a majority of the country on board, as well as parts of the government and the military, any such uprising would be absolutely ripped to shreds given the technological prowess of the NSA, weaponry of the military, and so on and so forth. A resolution must be peaceful because it is no longer very reasonable to attempt to overthrow a well entrenched modern government unless damned near the entire country wishes to revolt.

I think even some of the Republicans will come round if this goes too much further. Maybe my hopes are misplaced. But Bush's approval ratings suggest the public is already upset, and they will likely only become all the more so as they become aware of the stuff that has been getting talked about at DU for at least the last few months I've been watching.

I read what you wrote, and ridiculed you for making such a request, which was deservedly done. I would not have even considered honoring such a request to begin with. but that is neither here nor there.

Perhaps we are not a Police State yet, but it would be quite naive of YOU to not see how close we are. Dangerously close we are. The NSA Wiretapping, AT & T's snooping, and the revelation from yesterday that Bush basically ignores any law he doesn't agree with should be a leading indicator to you as to how close we are. Frankly, this current government we have run by these criminals not only disregards the Constitution, they act and govern as if it does not exist. We are not even allowed to express public dissent at a PUBLIC political rally anymore. We have Free Speech Zones in this country now. These are not signs of a GROWING Police State? Have you not read the Patriot Act? Patriot Act II? Have you not read the draconian legislation that has been passed in the past five years?

Let me ask you an honest question. Do you honestly think they have done these things without having the ultimate goal of a Totalitarian State? Do you honestly think they have put a power structure like this in place because they plan t just hand it over to someone else in 2008? What about the Voting Machines and their role in the past two elections. We DO NOT have free and Open elections in this country anymore. We don't live in a Police State? I think this is very debatable.

We do not YET live in a 1984 like state, but it would be foolish to look at what has not been put in place and say with a straight face that isn't the ultimate purpose of what they are doing. I hope you do not underestimate your adversary this much. To do so would be not only be naive in itself, but very, very foolish.

We are not yet in need of a violent resolution, that is true, but as I have laid out for you, with what these people have done and continue to do through their control of the media, and all branches of government, a legal, peaceful remedy is very much in danger of disappearing. What would you suggest be done at this point? Honestly. Tell me how you stop them. If this next election cycle passes, and it becomes clear that the electoral option has been completely compromised, what do we do? I really would like to know your thoughts here.

"Are you attempting to judge my position on the Bush administration simply by my being offended by these avatars and not liking the movie?"

No, I get that impression from reading your posts. But then again, I might be presuming too much as well. Thinking too much "from the gut", as mR. Colbert would say.


And I still don't see where these avatars correlate with the belief or urgency that we do think a violent resolution is needed. That is an assumption you have based on your feelings about this film, although I am hard pressed to understand how you have gleaned this connection between people's beliefs and the avatars they sport. Do you have any specific examples you can point us to?


On Edit: I think I should clarify the point that perhaps we do not yet live in a Police State like the one in 1984, but we certainly live in a DEVELOPING Police State. I do see many similarities between this bunch ,and the bunch from the 1930's in Germany. The thing you have to remember is that you don't market the same product the same way twice. They must keep the "illusion" of democracy alive in the general populace's psyche, in order to gain enough control to take the mask off. And I do believe the mask is going to come off eventually. And when it does, it will be too late. At least for a peaceful resolution.

And what a slimy passive aggressive response, incidentally.

And it is a point that is totally relevant here in this country, as it is one that we more than almost any other country are having and will have the most difficult time facing.

That is our unwillingness to to take action to fix the problems in our society for fear of the unknown. For fear of disrupting the perceived calm and civility that some feel we have now. That we are one of the few countries left on this earth who most of the remaining generations of people here haven't gone through any sort of meaningful strife, now that those who lived through the civil war have come and gone. Even seeing the difficulties associated with the robber barons and the depression are lost on most of us.

Though we aren't Nazi Germany yet, we do have many indicators of a progression to fascism and to authoritarian rule by those in power now. We're to the point where checks and balances (whether they be other parties in government, other organizations, the media, etc.) aren't adequate in their current form to allow for ways to correct this trend.

The movie wasn't trying to celebrate the torture of Evie and the violence towards other characters. It was trying to show that when a society gets to a point where the control is so absolute over the populace, that those who want to fix the system and force those out have to be prepared to lose EVERYTHING in order to do so effectively. If you maintain your habits, your desires for entertainment, food, and other luxuries, that we are SO addicted to in our society today, that's ammunition that can be used to stop any meaningful resistance before it starts. In order to succeed, you have to be dedicated even to the point of being willing to die (which was where Evie was "released" from her torture, when she finally came to that mind set and V accepted that she was ready to be a part of leading the revolution).

Are we at the point where we have to do what V and others in that movie did to shake off their oppressive regime? No, there's still an election coming up in November that hopefully we'll be allowed to participate and vote in fairly (but that remains to be seen). Are we ready to make the move that people made in that movie to cast aside their "normalcy" and listen to their sense to "make their government fear them" instead of having them fear the government? I don't think so. I think returning vets who run for office might help be leaders in this regard, but we're a long way from being ready to do a real focused revolutionary effort. The immigrants protesting now are more prepared for that than we are. Might we need to be prepared. Of Course! I think the sooner we think about how we might know when that line needs to be crossed, and come to the proper conclusion of that timing, the better. This movie I think let's us know we need to think abvout such things now rather than wait until it might be too late later.

Thom Hartmann disagrees with you. He felt it was one of the best movies he'd ever seen.

I'm proudly keeping my avatar Thank you!

I see what you're saying, and I am glad that is what you actually believe. That is what I would like to believe, and I would like to see a movie that makes me feel that way. I was unable to do so with this movie.

I really, really wish they had portrayed the utter gripping fear that should entwine a society like this. The citizens to me did not looks scared. The government was a bunch of buffoons. And the V character had a personality which I am simply unable to believe can exist. I would have preferred realistic violence rather than the flashy stuff for the screen. I would have preferred a non-fiction attempt to make a movie like this because I think it would have been far more powerful.

I guess when I see all these masks they by no means explain the intention of the user. There are parallels between the movie and this country, and I agree we are not there yet. I simply fear with too much romanticizing of this movie, it might well be possible to make things seem far worse than they really are.

If everyone was scared, then they all would be in the mode of being willing to sacrifice everything to overcome the fascism. And it wouldn't be relevant to the situation we face today either. It is when we do have some "pseudo" normality where there's a facade of normality that noone can be visibly upset with without being made to feel out of step or out of place, that's when the threat of a fascist society is that much harder to overcome. In that environment it's hard to know who to trust and how many there feel like you do that things need to change. And that is really what we face today. The Orwellian ways that this government tries to mask everything it does and present so much "counter propaganda" that many swallow without scrutinizing in detail what they are swallowing is B.S. Then some folks may be just afraid to speak out that what they are hearing is B.S. in our society too. It's hard to know though who feels that way and who's just drinking the koolaid! That's what nakes our life so frustrating now! And that's the way folks like Karl Rove like it!

I think that the film was using creative license and making him more of a mythic character than a realistic one. And you are right that I think that the Waschowski brothers (sp?) sometimes do get obsessed with their action sequences too much. They worked it well with the first Matrix movie and still had the meaningful plot stand out so that it was well balanced, but in the latter two, I think the obsession with action in some of the sequences did hurt the movie. I'm hoping that a director's cut might show a little more character development that will help us more with understand the deeper meanings of this film, rather than just an increased emphasis on action sequences and violence, which I'm convinced the studios keep having emphasized in theatrical release versions. I think the same problems plagued Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven, which I liked a lot, but I think probably had a lot of good "non-action" content removed from the final theatrical version that would have provided better character development in it and not just focused on the big battle scenes. I'm looking forward to the director's cut on DVD soon very much! Amazon has it cheap!

"If everyone was scared, then they all would be in the mode of being willing to sacrifice everything to overcome the fascism."

I disagree. Yes such an environment would create a mood in which some people would wish to sacrifice everything. But if one takes a look at places like North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq (pre invasion), and all the other nasty place in the world, this is not the way it is.

The people are scared. But there is not this desire among the majority of the population to sacrifice everything to overcome their repressive state. Uprisings and dissidents are brutally crushed. People disappear in the night and are never seen again. People have genitals mutilated, hands cut off, tongues removed, and on and on. Human life is of little value or meaning to the government. And I have seen it argued, in my opinion competently, that such states have only strengthened their authority to repress their populations given the advancement in technology, and with things like the internet. Just imagine being able to pinpoint, track down, and lock up anyone that does an internet search on "overthrow the state", etc. For many people in many places the decades of repression and control have made their fears much greater than their will to fight.

Then such governments can employ tactics such as buying off dissidents with oil funds. They own the media, they own the resources, and they can kill anyone anytime they feel like it. I think there are many people that would not find it worth sacrificing their life if the cause is surely doomed to failure. In places like Iran, were the U.S. to aid, encourage, and have kind words for the Iranian people this would be a great asset to them. Unfortunately, this was not our chosen path, and the impression I have received is that much of the warm feelings toward the U.S. have disappeared, and now the debate is focused on whether or not to bomb them to make them love us.

Agree on the Matrix completely :) Love the first one... but the second (haven't even seen the third) was so inflexible and empty to me... there was no room for my mind to explore and dream. Everything was explained... albeit badly.

I have an enormous aversion to violence in general after spending a couple months in a psychiatric facility with Iraqi war veterans, and people messed up by the military in general. I ended up there around a week without sleep in Air Force basic training. What I learned there will stay with me for life... no it does not mean I am right, or any more entitled to an opinion than anyone else... but perhaps a small window into why this troubled me, and perhaps not many others.

On the one hand, you have some states that are more brazen about their brutal dictatorship such as Iraq, North Korea, etc. that you mention. And you have others like ours that aren't honest in their brutality. Our administration is couched in double-speak, etc. As others pointed out here, Germans before WWII were manipulated into supporting the fascist Nazi regime too instead of broadcasting how they were going to be slaughtering Jews, etc.

One other characteristic of those regimes that have more honestly brutal authoritarian regimes is that there usually isn't a middle class or the masses don't have as much resources to be able to fight back against a more brazen approach to oppression, even if they are more upset and want to do so that much more. In those cases, the regime in power doesn't care how they are viewed, because they aren't counting on a segment of their subjects for support. They can completely run things on their own without any pushback. In societies like ours, where we still have checks in place (that carry over with our decaying system of Democracy) like the resources of a middle class, a bill of rights supported by a separate judicial body, an election system, etc. it makes their job trickier. They have to break down these institutions (the election system, the middle class segment of people's financial and other resources, the court system, our bill of rights, a set of laws that even our leaders are supposed to obey). Each one of those items now is under assault by this regime, and they give fascistic explanations of why they are doing this that are intended to keep many in our society as inactive sheep that won't do anything (and RISK ALL) to do something about it. That or they make those people more in fear of their government (rather than the government fearing us).

When you have a combination like V where he combines having the resources of people of the middle class and upper class to help such a rebellion, as well as having an attitude that he's prepared to sacrifice ALL of that to achieve freedom from opression, that is the kind of thing that authoritarian governments fear most and want to shut down. (aka governments that fear their people, instead of people fearing their governments).

As noted before, for the sake of encapsulating everthing in a movie, V encompasses what in reality would probably be many different people doing many different things as a part of a well-resourced opposition, and he is more a symbolic figure in that sense, and for one person in reality to do what he's doing is probably asking a bit much, and this gives him more of a "Hercules" style mythos for people to look at as a symbol they need for leading them, instead of looking at all of themselves collectively as that symbol.

One authoritarian regime that might be interesting to watch in the coming years is China. They've started out being more of an honestly brutal regime with things like the earlier Mao years and perhaps up to as recently as the Tianemen Square crisis. But now with their subtle embracement of capitalism on one level and communism on other levels, and various outsourcing of business there has helped raise the standard of living of many there, and having more background private persecutions of their citizens (as shown with coopting data from internet companies like Google and Yahoo) would indicate they are evolving into a more dishonestly brutal regime. On the other hand, a state in time of change like theirs might not be able to control their "masses" as well to without well set up methodologies for doing so over a newer rising middle class they have there. Perhaps China might evolve into a decent Democracy later, though it's way too early to see any evidence of that happening yet.

...in the movie. The book successfully portrayed a spartan, pseudo-Soviet society. I, too, was at first disappointed at the pretty, glossy look of the film.

Then I realized that this was also a clever point. By making fascist England look as shiny as FAUX News would have us believe all of America is, the story is brought home to us. The events unfold in a world that is recognizably ours, imparting greater urgency, in my opinion. Sure, we might strongly suspect that this was just typical Hollywood prettiness, but in this case it's functional.

The Wachowski version isn't a society where everyone lives in constant fear of their police and government. The fear's in the background--just as it is in today's real America. I like that aspect.

I do like the idea of showing the more non visible and not obvious state of fascism depicted in the movie that more accurately parallels ours of today. On the other hand, perhaps there could be some other subplot or the like that shows the average person and how they are having to deal with the effects of this more "subtle" but very strong and repressive fascism in place. Perhaps show more the unique way that V had to employ to subvert shipping restrictions, etc. that would be in place that might be subtle, but very likely able to in most cases be able to spot such a mass mailing strategy and stop it. If it can be shown how such control techniques were overcome, that might help us understand more the effort that V and his folks went to to overcome the fascism and seem more believable to us too.

Also, some added footage that really shows more the personality shift that Evie goes through to understand the purpose of V's tests, which I think we are missing in this film. Additional sequences might fill that gap and make that part of it really effective. I think I get what Waschowski was trying to show, but I don't think it was well communicated as it could be for others to as well.

I'm hoping such extra footage exists for the above plot elements, and that we might see such an extended version of the film come out. With that sort of augmentation, I think the film could be made into an excellent one. I still like it now as is, but I'd like it even better with that, and I think others here might too.

but i admire your passion.

I don't have an avatar.
I am my own citizen, flying my own sovereign flag.
In my sovereign heart, i do whatever is called for by the moment.

I haven't seen the film about Guy Fawkes yet, V, but its
just a film, a metaphor where all the characters take place
inside us. All human beings have violence inside of us,
upset and blind fury, and these emotions can be transformed
to more useful emotions by happy people.

Woe to a government that interferes with the pursuit of happiness,
it earns its deserve, and woe to one that represses liberty, as it
has lost the moral right to remain.

Direct Action is sometimes necessary, and i don't accept
your premise that it is unthinkable. If the mask
represents cutting to the chase, and after all the
deliveration, pulling the trigger, then celibrate action.

In some societies, angry citizens would already have taken direct
acton against the bush neocons, perhaps shooting a few dead in
the street to show that unilateral action works all ways.

If you want to influence DU, enlighten uzz,
but telling us what to think is a nonstarter.

peace,
-s

PS - welcome to DU :toast:

Thanks! I had no idea that a film character could still be so powerful
that it could prompt someone to ask 88,000+ people not to use it as an
avatar.

Wow! You've opened my eyes. Thanks again!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Wasn't really interested in seeing the flick until I saw OPs passive/aggressive BS against using a symbol from it. Like my Wayward Daughter says, anything that pisses them off might be worth a look.

I wasn't sure I should jump into a flame war, but I couldn't help it.

But I wish I did. It is one of the best movies I have ever seen.

And that is just as good :)

Colbert is the man! But now I feel the need for a Ray McGovern avatar as well!

:)

but I do agree with your description of the movie's failings in regards to the inept government etc.

The whole thing felt totally unrealistic in terms of the populace's reactions, the government's reactions, hell even the individual's reactions. Compare the society of the movie, and the current American society, and you will see that the current American society is far more controlled than the society of the movie. It's like something I read about Russians reaction to Pravda etc - they knew it was propaganda and thus it had no bearing on their real views. Same as the media in the movie.

Contrast that with current American society, where the media is just as controlled, and just as propaganda filled, if not more so than anything in the movie or the Soviet Union. The true power comes from the populace refusing to BELIEVE it is controlled. In fact in most modern movies of this kind (and even 1984 itself) the machinery of oppresion is so obvious that no one could be fooled into believing it didnt exist, UNLESS THEY WANTED TO BE FOOLED. Such people do not rebel against the machinery that supports their delusions. In fact they fight viciously to protect the delusion out of fear of it being destroyed. They are the backwash as Colbert suggested.

BUT, in a real oppressive regime, the oppression is hidden. Germans did not feel oppressed by Hitler. In fact the large majority LOVED him. How do you spark a rebellion in such a society? In a REAL oppresive society? Do even Democrats feel OPPRESSED by Bush? Sure they talk about it like they do, but they ACT like they don't. And they always talk of "if Bush does THIS, THEN we must act", and the THIS is something unlikely to ever occur, and thus the THEN never comes. The rebellion is always put off until something worse happens, then its put off again.

The American people should have been marching on the Whitehouse the DAY that a single person was arrested and imprisoned without charge and without public notice. Argentina has it's 'desaparecidos', the 'disappeared'. So does the United States. And we are not talking one or two, but thousands of people snatched off the street never to be seen again, and barely acknowledged.

Americans claim to be about justice, and yet that has barely caused a murmor. Sure when directly talked about, people will say its terrible, but what exactly do they do to stop it? Nothing. Then a fake war that killed hundreds of thousands of real people. Once again they TALK about how terrible it is, and maybe they hold a protest every now and then, but what do they REALLY do to stop it? Now a President who says he is not constrained by the laws of the land and can pick and choose which laws to follow. What else? Will the people march on Washington and bodily remove the leaders if Bush drops a nuke on Iran? What will it take?

As long as the controlled populace is unwilling to actually DO anything, then no amount of 'V' like rabble rousing will change a damned thing. And as long as the populace is controlled by means slightly less obvious than death squads in the streets, they will NOT be willing to do anything. Hell, not even then as long as the targets are some demonised minority.

That is why I think movies such as V for Vendetta help Bush more than anything - because they carefully direct the ideas of what an oppressive society looks like and thus prevents real rebellion against the real oppressors.

And agree with your assessments, especially your last sentence. That really hit the chord. I read through users reviews on yahoo... (yeah I know it doesn't mean much) of conservatives blasting the "stupid liberals" because of the utterly inept portrayal of a police state.

The problem is the avatar and the movie can mean so many different things to so many different people. I would like to have felt what others here are claiming they saw in the movie. Just the inaccurate portrayals of so many things prevented me from doing so, not to mention much of the violence seemed utterly pointless as well as unrealistic and glorified, and that can really turn me off.

I am more comfortable now actually knowing why others like this movie and avatar. My issues still stand with the movie, but it won't bother me so much now. I still think from the outside it could easily be read the wrong way, as I'm sure I did to some degree... but then again I guess one can't spend too much time worrying about what others think... though it is important if you're trying to present a message.

I believe firmly that the time has long passed for "civility" in our current situation and to think otherwise is just Pollyanna. "No other alternative" does exist IMO. Everyday I "pray" (in my own nonreligious way) that The People get organized and resist the madness with every ounce of their strength, including violence if need be (was the Third Reich overcome by "civility"?). But so far I don't see that happening to any significant degree. Thus I will watch the movie and see what I can learn from it and what its fascination and appeal is to some DUers, to the point that they've adopted it as an avatar. If I don't like it, it will certainly NOT be my place to criticize others for their choice of avatar.

You might have taken a different approach and simply said you didn't care for the movie and were surprised by the avatars, but to tell people to "reconsider" their choice? :wtf: does this sentiment pass the smell test?

All I wanted was for people to read my point of view and consider it. I have criticized no one. I have made no demands. An appeal is a form of argument.

Yes if I believe strongly in something I will ask others to reconsider their viewpoint. That in essence is what a good argument is.

This is flame bait to the extreme.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"It Can't Happen HERE!" is a hell of a lot more prophetic about where we are headed IMO.

I mean, look, we already HAVE the "Minute Men"!

avatars should be afraid of their people.

photoshop a pic of the shrub on that picture and see if homeland security comes callin.

Personally, I loved that film. I think you completely missed the point. The only violence in that film was from the government and from "V" himself in retaliation. The citizens were encouraged to be NON-violent in their protest. I think it's a lovely symbol.

.

The characters do not feel real, and do not react in a manner characteristic of what should be a society dominated by death, torture, and fear. V is also a horribly flawed, inhuman character that somehow seems to be able to completely detach his mind and psyche from all the brutal and merciless killing he does.

Did you even SEE the movie? Their society is dominateed not by death, torture and fear but silence, order and conplacency. As to V, yes, he is detached - that's the point.

As soon as V starts making trouble, you see the citizens immediately start doubting and mocking the government.

As soon as? Againn, did you SEE the movie? It takes much more than that.

And this totalitarian government is pathetically inept. The citizens are not scared of the government. The police forces are an absolute joke.

Didn't you just say the society is dominated by death, torture and fear? Now you say they're a joke. MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

Then there is V. Damn that guy talks a lot. The effectiveness of dialogue is completely lost when the character simply spews an endless length of famous and profound quotes, in the hopes that one or two of them will catch with the audience every now and then. His mind defies all logic and reason. Given his experiences, and his actions of executing all his prior tormentors, he should be a sociopathic killing machine seeking death and revenge, and perhaps the downfall of the government. Yet somehow during all his time with Natalie Portman he manages to be charming, empathetic, and thoughtful. I have spent significant time with Iraq veterans and other service members that are very fucked up. One cannot knowingly kill other human beings without losing a part of themselves in the process.

First you complain that he's detached. Then you complain he's not detached enough.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

A Fantasy, came from a COMIC BOOK.

Should we not use covers from Brave New World, or 1984? How about the Prince Machavelli?

It's sort of a free country isn't it?

THis reminds me of the abortion debate, and my favorite bumper sticker, "Don't Like Abortion? Don't HAVE ONE."

and self expression?

Why do you feel the need to censor self expression in whatever form it takes as long as it is not hurting anyone else?

Let me guess: John Hodgeman's "The Areas of My Expertise"
wasn't a good book, it hurts the Democrats, and you didn't enjoy it.

Not to mention that it's just FULL
of factual inaccuracies, right? :rofl:

Since you feel so free to suggest what WE might need to "study",
might I suggest in turn that you pick up an old copy of
"How to Win Friends and Influence People"?

Maybe this poster can help me pick out a nicer avatar with less controversy.

But I bet he could whine about how annoyed he is
that you have a different view of some things,
and opine that your disagreement indicates your need to
educate yourself until you agree with him.

Here, let's save him some time, via RECYCLING:
Then there's that Hunter. Damn that guy talks a lot.
The effectiveness of writing is completely lost when the author
simply spews an endless length of powerful, gut-felt phrases,
in the hopes that one or two of them will catch
with the audience every now and then.
His mind defies all logic and reason.

See how easy that was? I hardly needed to change a thing.

I support mutant humans and wish to accelerate mutation.;)

Fascism is baaaaaaad.

:eyes:

What a ridiculous farce that movie was.

is a nice feature, as well as the freedom to choose one.

Quite a few appeared as a response to that admonition.

I selected my current avatar in honor of St Patrick's Day. It's still up because of all the "How dare they fly the Mexican flag" idiots.

V is in my thoughts

V will be in my DVD collection

V is a hero, a superhero, a comic book hero

Get over it.

It is a symbol.

I put the mask on my truck and I have a V t-shirt from Ebay. I am even thinking of repainting my goalie mask as Guy Fawkes!

I am not advocating violence; I am telling everyone who sees that I GET THE MESSAGE. The message is BE BRAVE, CHANGE YOUR COUNTRY, SPEAK OUT AND DO NOT LIVE IN FEAR.

It is the same message as the NO W sticker and the PROPERLY DISPLAYED US flag on my truck...

I am the Loyal, Patriotic Opposition. :patriot:

I am not asking for violence.



We are not at that stage...thank god.

Wearing inflatable king heads.

how we express our dislike for Bush and Co)

:rofl:

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

A movie that portrays a guy who tries to brutally and mercilessly strike down his leader just plays right into the hands of the conservatives.

And we better get rid of those Spongebob avatars. He makes kids ask inappropriate questions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=768655


"Thank You for Smoking" beats "V for Vendetta" and I'll tell you why.
I don't know if there's a spoiler in here or not. Read at your own risk.

Having seen both over the weekend, I proclaim "Thank You for Smoking" to be vastly superior to "V" as both entertainment and a political statement.

First, "Thank You for Smoking" is funny and political because it's characters are true and tell their truths in bald, unaffected ways. When the head of the tobacco lobbyist firm is smacking around his people for their failures because "Cigarettes are cool, they're widely available, and they're addictive! They practically sell themselves!" you hear what people really think. When the main character lobbyist moves happily without a whole lot of guilt, it's because he's damn good at what he does and he's proud of his abilities. Evil and tortured souls don't become the front men for products; happy, personable and glib people do. In fact, Garry Trudeau should sue for the obvious infringement of his happy go lucky "Mr. Butts" character. The announcement that smoking an addictive product is a matter of choice is, to him, a proud statement of liberty, like a three martini lunch or cheese on apple pie, not a contradiction in terms.

But "V", unfortunately, fails. True, the government is horrific, but we've seen it done better in "1984". The central dramatic moment of blowing up Parliament is only that: a dramatic moment. It seems to buy into the anarchist "great deed" theory that there only needs to be a huge act of destruction, or an assassination, and the people will have a starting gun. But strangely, it's just a fireworks show, not a revolution. It's just destruction, not a statement, and destroying the house of representative government at that. As a political statement, it's more diffuse than "Thank You", which leaves one thinking about personal responsibility.

...I have selected 'V for Vendetta' avatars to twist my undies into a bundle." :eyes:

Thanks. :*

You so funny! :eyes: