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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:09 PM
Original message
Is the US actually in recession?
CSI: Trade Deficit
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/04/paul_krugman_cs.html

Forensics are in. If you turn on the TV during prime time, you're likely to find yourself watching people sorting through clues from a crime scene, trying to figure out what really happened.

That's more or less what's going on right now among international finance experts. The crime in question is the U.S. trade deficit, which ... reached an amazing $805 billion last year. The mystery is how we've been able to run huge deficits ... with so few visible adverse consequences. And the future of the U.S. economy depends on which of two proposed solutions to the mystery is right.

Here's the puzzle: the trade deficit means that America is ... spending far more than it earns. ... To pay for the excess of imports over exports, the United States has ... borrowed more than $3 trillion just since 1999.




Experts warn of crisis as two U.S. deficits collide
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/opinion/14434445.htm

The best case, according to public-policy experts speaking April 24 in Kansas City, is that the nation’s ballooning debt will be manageable — if we quadruple taxes, slash Social Security and Medicare spending beyond the bone, or find some combination of the two before a meltdown starts.

And the worst case?

“Over the long run, I believe the republic is at risk. It’s that serious,” David Walker, the U.S. comptroller general, said at a business breakfast Monday.



'Good economy' remains an illusion
http://www.charleston.net/stories/?newsID=84520§ion=commentary

The same monkeyshines are employed by the government in reporting the GDP, the CPI (Consumer Price Index), and unemployment. After World War II, the government measured GDP with consumption as 70 percent of the measure. At the time, all we consumed we produced. But today, half of the goods that we consume are produced abroad, and the reported GDP is flawed. For example, the official government GDP figure for the fourth quarter of last year is 1.7 percent. But according to John Williams, a respected conservative Republican economist, the figure "should be close to 2 percent contraction." Alan Greenspan and the Boskin Commission appointed by Congress jimmied the CPI to lessen Social Security payments. Rather than about 3.4 percent, Williams reports that "real CPI right now is running at about 8 percent."

The Clinton administration jimmied employment figures by reducing the number of people surveyed in the inner cities. Now with proper labor force growth, Charles McMillion, a noted Washington economist, reports an unemployment rate at 7.6 percent instead of 4.7 percent.

In the last five years we have lost 2.9 million manufacturing jobs. To keep us going, the government has cut taxes and goosed the economy with $2.5 trillion in "hot" checks to create jobs. Paul Craig Roberts, Ronald Reagan's economist, states: "No sane economist can possibly maintain that a deplorable record of merely 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs over five years is an indication of a healthy economy."
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. it has been ever since the corporations and wealthy elite
began their hostile takeove of the US in 2000.

Only "Enron-style" accounting and number fudging allows the bushgang's PR campaign to make it seem okay.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bingo...the recession officially started in March 2001.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It sure seems that way... and financial experts
are just now connecting the dots... wish it hadn't taken them so long!
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. good post redqueen
Its a supply side economy brought to you by the GOP.

The wealthy are going gangbusters, everyone else is worse off than theyve ever been.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thank you!
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:15 PM by redqueen
:hi:

I was tired of seeing all the complaining about how nothing important was being discussed due to the rape cases, and now Kennedy... so... :)
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I agree.
Thank you, redqueen.

:toast:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. And thank you too!
:hi:
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Has anyone else noticed that the "solution" Never touches Military
or intelligence funds? We can piss away 200 Million a day on just IRAQ but we have to cut Social Spending. :puke:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, can't cut the military! Terra terra terra!
We have always been at war with Eurasia!

Pay no mind to those no-bid contracts, or the fact that the war in Iraq was one OF CHOICE.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Been Saying That For 5 Years
The economy does not fit the "classical" definition of recession, but in an economy as big as ours, the definitions must be more fluid. For the last 5 years, the economy has been running growth, UE, productivity, %purchases under credit (PPUC), and domestic reinvestment values that are all more than 1 sigma below the mean of the prior 45 years.

This, from a statistical point of view is a recession. I don't care what the dullards who only read and memorized Hazlett and von Hyaeck think.
The Professor
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Wow... 1 sigma below the mean of the prior 45 years...
I'm not sure what a sigma is, but just the 'below the mean of the prior 45 years' is enough to make me wince.

Thank you so much for weighing in! I often wonder what your take on matters would be when I'm watching financial news. :hi:
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It's Simple
If they're saying something on TV, they're likely wrong! People who should know better, (and i mean Ph.D.'s), seldom can differentiate micro v. macro economics, and most can't even separate finance from economics. The field is inundated with morons. When i watch economic news on TV, and they have an "expert" on, i seldom have to hear beyond two paragraphs before i hear something i know to be wrong. The technical school of economics is woefully underrepresented in the media, and in gov't, even though it represents about 25% of all economists and econometric analysts.

Makes me ill.
The Professor
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I could have guessed as much, I suppose...
What did you think of Louis Rukeyser? Are you familiar with him? He just passed away recently...
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. M'Eh
He's certainly brighter than Larry Kudlow or Al Greenspan, but he was a marketeer, not a economist. And, he was a strong proponent of the "tipster" school of investing. He wasn't known for doing clever analysis to determine long term trends. He was more from the get rich quick school of investing.

Didn't loathe him. But i really didn't have much use for him either.
The Professor
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thanks...
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:41 PM by redqueen
at least he tried to make it engaging... for that I'll give him a bit of credit.

Too many people pay too little attenton to these matters. Hope it doesn't bite us all in the ass too soon.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. I think we are pre-depression
If you check out this link, Timeline of the Great Depression you might see a few rather frightening similarties c. 1920.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

:kick:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. What was the mantra leading up to that era?
"let the market decide"
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. kinda familiar isn't it?
>> 1924

The Ku Klux Klan reaches the height of its influence in America: by the end of the year it will claim 9 million members. It will decline drastically in 1925, however, after financial and moral scandals rock its leadership.

The stock market begins its spectacular rise. Bears little relation to the rest of the economy.

1925

The top tax rate is lowered to 25 percent - the lowest top rate in the eight decades since World War I. <<

Same story 80+ years later.

:dem: :kick:
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. more here ...
Too late to edit again, but note this part!

1928

The construction boom is over.

Farmers' share of the national income has dropped from 15 to 9 percent since 1920.

Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks will rise 40 percent. Trading will mushroom from 2-3 million shares per day to over 5 million. The boom is largely artificial.

:kick:


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. At this point, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. n/t
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
71. OMG, that Coolidge quote.."the business of America IS business".
Thus spake Chimpolini....
SCARY stuff!
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. 1 sigma below the mean translates into...
One standard deviation below the average of the prior 45 years, assuming a reasonable normal distribution of data. Am I correct?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dupe
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:37 PM by ProfessorGAC
...
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Iran formally opened their euro bourse today
The infrastructure isn't there for them to actually price in euros yet, but the Iranian gov't claims they have granted a license to at least one trader. If they get this off the ground it will be much more devastating to the US economy than anything Saddam or bin Laden could do put together. Although in the long run it will be better for us since it will let us actually start producing our own food and goods again.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAN_OIL_EUROS?SITE=NEYOR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh my goodness...
Things are worse than they seem in more than a few ways, sadly...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1108130


Wasn't Iraq trying to switch to the Euro before we attacked for no real reason?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. MAy be the Chinese will dump our T bills and expose little lord pussy pant
as the total failure he is. I Weep for the pain that our country will suffer but am glad the aWoL's mad plans for world domination will be stooped.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Agreed
As much as I don't like the idea, this may be a case where we all have to bend over and take one for the team (ie, homo sapiens)
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
57. why would China do that?
trashing our economy would trash theirs.

I hear this sort of speculation a lot here at DU, and I've yet to see any reason why China would be willing to cut off it's nose to spite it's face.

Can you give me a reasonable scenario for this?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. China gets a lot of OIL from IRAN. They may not want the USA to control
the ME. Do you think China would have any problem selling to the EU instead of the US?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. the US accounts for a third of the world economy
our collapse would effect the EU as well...

----------------

How does a country control the natural resources of an entire region? Militarily?

How do you protect the pipelines from being blown up? It would seem the cost of "control" would negate any potential profit...

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. good you understand why the Bushista PNAC plan will not work. Will you
please make every effort to explain it to them?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. that's not really a recession
that's more like riding the tiger. A dangerous place to be, but if you get off, the tiger kills you. However, eventually, inevitably, you will fall off anyway. It's a wild ride until that happens though. Krugman has been warning of an Argentina style meltdown for the last three years IIRC. After Nov 2004, I seriously looked at buying a new car because I figured it was better to have alot of debt than alot of savings when the financial system imploded. When it implodes, debt and savings will be wiped out, so I think the debtor comes out ahead. But typically the winner is the person with either cash or gold who can buy real assets for pennies on the dollar, sorta like Potter did in It's a Wonderful Life during the Great Depression. It's hard to figure a personal strategy for coping with an economic tsunami. Kinda like a massive terrorist attack you need non-perishable food and potable water, but sadly the greatest asset will probably be guns and ammo. Hopefully, it does not come to that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Thanks...
Yes, Krugman has been trying to warn us for a long time... how many more insanely unwise tax cuts have been passed in the past three years? How many more fat contracts to the GOPrano's buddies?

Just like 9/11... this did not have to happen.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
21. The real estate market is crap - that is NOT a good sign.
In Florida it's gone to hell....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Seems to be the case in California as well.
Not sure how much more I really want to know about that situation ... the housing bubble that's troubling so many countries is yet another issue that threatens stability.

Yet still speculators are flipping properties for their quick payoff... damn them.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. you are right
There is a house for sale across the street from me. It was said to be worth ~$250,000.00+ which is cheap in the area I live in.

The house has not moved an inch, no lookers, no nothing.

I noted this past week they had a new roof put on this house, were painting it inside and out and doing more work on the interior today.

I guess things aren't moving so they dumped about $25,000+ into it to sell it for a lower price.

It is getting ugly alright. I feel sorry for ANYONE that is carrying a large debt of any sort, especially a home. :(

:kick:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. My sister is, in Cali, even.
However she's got a fixed interest rate and isn't wanting to move, so that's not so bad.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
56. Kind of sucks in Duh-hi-O too
I'm selling this month, but homes below the 350K range. Over 400K, they are sitting for weeks, months, etc.
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slybacon9 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. let's do a head count... I'M in recession. anyone else?
lost my job, can't afford gas. yeah.... it's not going so well on that end.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I *have* a job - can't afford gas, food, and rent/mortgage, and utilities.
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:58 PM by redqueen
Two or three out of four, sure, depending on other costs (dentist, car repairs)... but not all of it.

I wonder how many of us are in this situation... and the GOPranos want to pass even MORE tax cuts for the rich.

:banghead:
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I've been wanting to do a survey to see how DUers are getting by
these days. I'm really curious. We're struggling, for sure though both spouses are employed in "professional" jobs.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I wonder about Americans in general...
probably another part of the reason bush's numbers are in freefall.

It seems Nader was partially right... in that until it bites some people personally...
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. The only reason I want to ask DUers is because I can.
But I am curious nationally, of course.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Doh
:dunce:
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
50. That sounds like a good idea
the survey, thing, about how some DUers are getting by...
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
54. That would be a good thread...
we compare notes on the Stock Watch thread, but not everyone would go there. Sounds like a good idea.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
53. your survey is more reliable than anything the gov't puts out.
another vote for "Times are tough."
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. I'M in recession. There have not been IT jobs for 4 tears.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't think the stock market is reflecting the decline like it
Edited on Fri May-05-06 01:58 PM by Cleita
should because the mega-corporations are making money from emerging overseas markets and this is not benefitting most of us. I think it's time for our economists to get their heads unstuck from their tunnel vision and start looking at how the economy is affecting Joe Sixpack. I think you will get a truer picture of the American economy there.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. That would be nice...
but we all know how they're not covering the bush breaking 750 laws story like they're covering the Kennedy story, so... I won't hold my breath.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. For several years there have been record profits;
At the major US corporations while worker's net pay has declined. Today, the stock market is celebrating a net loss of jobs (need 150,000 to sustain those lost, every month, however that figure is light for April) to soar to near record highs for the major indices. What is wrong with this picture?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Exactly...
Somthing stinks... and it seems hardly anyone cares to bother to report this to the public.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. I am confident that history will record the Bush Regime was cooking books
on the economy.

Look, the Bush Regime lies about everything else, so why should we give them a pass on economic numbers?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Don't expect us to, but the notorious MSM is studiously ignoring
this as well.

I would think investors would be curious, at least...
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. The same way investors were "curious" during the Internet bubble?
I'm not trying to be snarky, but rather saying that investors really aren't as smart in general as we're led to believe. They get caught up in emotions and believing in fairy tales just like any other human beings do.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Very true... but if they catch a glance of this...
I'd expect them to perk up a little, and take notice.

I wonder how many would not do so today, given their experience with said bubble.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Americans' short-term memory issues? :) n/t
n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks for the recommendations...
one :kick: for anyone who missed it...
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. David Walker is getting zero respect and practically no coverage.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. Not too surprising, though, is it?
Edited on Mon May-08-06 01:43 PM by redqueen
Any real news is drowned out in a sea of 'coverage' of Kennedy crashes and illegal immigrants.
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Radio_Guy Donating Member (875 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
49. Nice post, but one error
"The Clinton administration jimmied employment figures by reducing the number of people surveyed in the inner cities. Now with proper labor force growth, Charles McMillion, a noted Washington"

The Clinton Administration did no such thing. Low unemployment was a reality then, unlike now.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. I wasn't sure if he had changed anything or not.
Given his unfaltering love of NAFTA, I wouldn't put it past him.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
51. Yup, but BORROWING hides it and SS keeps it from killing US.
720B$ borrowed this year, (33% tax increase! {.72/2.2T$})
M3 no longer reported, (Printing $bills, reducing value worldwide)
That implies more borrowing, (from value of $ tradability)

SS does keep poor individuals from appearing destitute.

Problem is, we can't keep it up.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. I wonder how long before more people catch on to the ruse. n/t
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
52. Whenever I'm around republicans in the family
or (so called) friends at work who voted republican, I like to say what a great booming economy we have. Especially when they are complaining about the high cost of gas, or their house they have on the market and have been trying to sell for months..
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. :D
Wanna hear something worse? I know several republicans who refuse to talk politics anymore, but they love bragging about the great economy.

:crazy:
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
55. Yes.
Either a recession or a Depression.

I think the best measurement or how an economy is doing is -- how easy are decent jobs to come by. If jobs are extremely hard to find, it's obvious the economy is doing extremely poorly.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. What? You mean McJobs aren't as good as other jobs?
:rofl:

Do these people just wake up and decide to stop thinking one day?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
58. from the POV of my business, the answer is yes
I've had this business for over eight years now, so we've been through at least one "real" recession (2001), not counting the general overall suckiness of the economy since the Bush junta came to power, and the run up to the Iraq invasion which culminated in the worst x-mas nationwide in over 35 years, which may as well have been a recession, so I know what a recession is like.

The numbers we've been getting the last 6 weeks are "recession" like numbers. For a small mom and pop business like ours it's like a light switch. People just flat out stop buying things. Fifty to seventy-five percent drop in business.

I've been talking to two other businesses nearby that are sort of in the same line and they're reporting the same... one is postponing their annual buying trip to China, the other is closing their doors after 18 years (they've still got a year on their lease, but they're talking to a lawyer about getting out of it.) Neither of the two businesses mentioned have made any money for two years. Neither have we.

Maybe some of this has to do with the local economy, which is in the toilet. I don't know.

One thing I do know - when some asshole politician gets on the tv and says the economy is doing well, they're lying.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. I loved Tony Blankley's way of putting it...
in terms of high gas prices (at least I think it was that guy...). He was talking about the high cost of gas, and was saying that if you're middle class, it's a minor annoyance, but for the working poor (not his words), it was really a struggle.

So many in this country aren't struggling, that they just don't see (or care about) anyone else... I'm starting to think Nader was right... until enough of those people feel it too, they'll continue to ignore it.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
59. No, Depression.
There are two economies: That of the elitists, and that of you and me. To understand today's economics, we must recognize that these are two independent nations.

Our ultimate economic indicator: Falling real wages. The falling prices of labor is the ultimate signal for depression.

It's just so simple.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. *sigh*
Yes, two economies, no doubt about that. Sad, but there it is. And those middle-class people who still haven't bothered to notice that they've mortgaged themselves into oblivion... they don't even know...
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-06-06 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
63. I think the usual defenders of the Bush economy only post on weekdays
Edited on Sat May-06-06 04:25 PM by AllieB
they tout how the GDP has grown and how the economy adds jobs every month, without acknowledging that there is serious 'stagflation' by traditional economic standards, and not by the ones that the Bush administration has doctored to reflect their version of economic success.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-08-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. I know... what was I thinking, posting this on a Friday afternoon.
:P

Stagflation... yes... hadn't heard that word in a while!
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