A Question for Mitt Romney

The Mormoms believe, through their extra sacred texts, that women can only go to heaven if their husband approves it. He must "call her up" or she can never go to heaven. If this isn't placing women into a lower subservient caste, what is?

Romney can talk all he wants, but his religious beliefs is very close to that of the Taliban when it comes to womens rights.

He has stated he wishes to explain his religion. Let him explain how women cannot go to heaven unless they are "called up" by their husband.

The Mormons taught that the Black skin was a punishment for Cain's descendants. When the Feds threatened to remove the non-profit tax status exemption, the Church suddenly had a revalation that Blacks could become leaders in the Church.

are they sent to suicide bomber heaven instead ?

Then the female suicide bombers will not be met by virgins in heaven...women prefer experience :evilgrin:

To enter into the LDS version of heaven one must simply not deny the Holy Ghost - while knowing for absolute certainty the divinity of the Holy Ghost. This is very difficult to do - only 3 or 4 people in the history of the earth qualify for the LDS version of hell (i.e. Outer Darkness).

Now for a woman to enter the highest kingdom of heaven (there are 5 kingdoms - Terrestrial Terrestrial and Celestial - The Celestial Kingdom is divided into 3 more kingdoms). To enter into the highest kingdom of the Celestial on must be 1) Mormon, 2) Baptized and 3) Married in the LDS Temple.

A woman who has been married in the temple is called up in the resurrection by their husband id she if married in the temple and her husband is worthy.

Im a non-believing member of the church if you have any question please ask.

I dislike Romney as much as the rest of you, but it does not help our case when we cant even grasp his religious beliefs.

If you can quote LDS scripture to prove otherwise, please do so.

Where is your scripture to prove otherwise?



Just for a little background, I am 4th generation Mormon - I have read all the scriptures many many times. I was an LDS missionary, my fathers a bishop etc.

and many of them are buried in the Cache Valley with the handcart symbol.

Romney needs to be hit hard on this. My great grandfather also has three polygamous wives and 21 children.

Is that you can "baptize" a dead person for a sum of money if you are worried for their soul.
As far as the marriage thing...the Mormon's believe that women won't go to heaven unless they are married, which is the main reason for bigamy/polygamy.
The men are just doing those poor spinster women a favor by marrying them.:sarcasm:

Baptisms in the temple are not done for money. Know one pays to have it done.

A man can not go to the highest kingdom of the Celestial Kingdom with out being married. Same is true for a woman - both must be married to go to the highest kingdom.

but Baptisms of DEAD people are.

I have done them many many times - over 800 people and don't once did I or anyone else pay anything to have them done.

and my ancestors were part of the exodus to the Utah valley.

But I have had other Mormons tell me differently. I also studied the LDS religion at a religious seminar where this subject was discussed at length.
I guess everyone is lying to me except you. Thank you for setting me straight.:eyes:

Please show me where your getting your information then - because you have been misinformed. Quote one Scripture that says a woman cant get into heaven with out a man.

Ill be waiting

What I said is that a woman must be called up by her husband. Show me anything different.

>>>>snip
"Celestial" marriage, as this eternal marriage is often called, is essential for Mormon women. Without being celestially married to a holder of the priesthood, a woman cannot be "saved" (Green 154). Mary Ettie Smith, a Mormon woman who left the church and Utah in 1856, said that "women do not amount to much in themselves," and that women in those times were often celestially married to men they had no intention of ever living with, so that they could have a man who would be able to get them into heaven (Green 154).

In the temple marriage ceremony, women are given secret names known only to their husbands, for identification purposes, so their husbands can pull them through to "the other side" after death (Laake 118). During the marriage ceremony, until 1990, men made their temple covenants directly to God, while the women had to make their temple covenants to their husbands (Laake 328). This means that while male temple workers representing God lead the men through the cloth representing the veil between worlds, husbands, symbolically, lead their wives through. Women also promise to obey their husbands in everything as long as their husbands obey God (Laake 108). As part of the ceremony, women also receive their endowments. These are sacred ordinances and promises which make a person eligible to enter the highest level of heaven, and Mormons receive them on their first visit to the temple (Laake 93). Men usually receive their endowments when they enter the temple to become a priesthood holder or go on a mission, but women enter the temple for the first time to be married.

After death, while their husbands are creating and ruling over planets, the women have the questionable honor of bearing his "spirit children" for eternity. These spirit children descend to their Father's planet to inhabit bodies as mortals, who are then ruled over by him. Mormon Doctrine states that these celestially married men and women "will live eternally in the family unit and have spirit children, thus becoming Eternal Fathers and Eternal Mothers" (516). A man who has multiple wives can beget many more spirit children, making him much more powerful. Birth control is, of course, very strongly discouraged. Ambitious Mormon men must beget many children with as many wives as possible, for "their glory (in heaven) is in proportion to the number of their wives and children" (Snowden 141).

>>>snip
If a man felt his wife was not behaving properly, he could always find a more compliant one. Because all women must be married to go to heaven, the pressure to conform to the expectations of men was incredible. If a man was not content with his wife, Brigham Young "recommended...that he take a plural wife or two -- since this was a sure cure for a shrewish and recalcitrant female" (Fife 101). The system did not even provide the camaraderie one might expect from a household full of women, for wives were often in competition for attention. Technically, the first wife had to approve subsequent wives (Wallace 82), but few women chose to risk the wrath of their husbands and the church elders by refusing someone.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

and they are.

Im done here - there is no use trying to show you that you are wrong , its a waist of time.

without exception. They have no tolerance, so why were you even here?

The Jewish people got very mad at the LDS for baptising dead Jews into the Mormon religion. Let Romney explain it all.

It has almost 12 million members and its been around for over 150 years - it does not qualify as a cult. Look it up if you don't believe me.

When you type in "mormon""cult".
Some of them are pretty interesting reading.:eyes:

Because the Democrats outlawed polygamy. To this day, Mormon women will show with honor their polygamous male ancestors.

Mormon counties were almost 100% GOP voters. It is no secret that the democrats outlawed polygamy. The Mormons were so mad they voted GOP. Some left for Arizona, Nevada, Mexico, and Canada rather than give up polygamy.

The vote for Bush in the last election was about 87.2%, which roughly corresponds to the percentage of mormons in the population. I wouldn't say that 100% voted for Bush, but a vastly overwhelming majority certainly did.

Regarding polygamy, you couldn't be more wrong. The issue of polygamy was a central tenet of the Republican platform. They strove to eliminate what they considered the twin evils of slavery and polygamy. This was the platform Lincoln won on. Polygamy was subsequently banned to allow the admission of Utah as a state. If you want a reason for mormon's overwhelming support for the Republicans, I think its greed. I've met few mormons that didn't have an inordinate love of money.

I do think they are a cult though. What's the difference between a cult and a religion? Size and time.

that they did not engage in polygamy before they were allowed to vote. The Mormons never forgave the democrats.

by political scientists.

When the state was granted statehood (after agreeing to give up polygamy) the federal government told the church it was concerned that the state would be a one party state. So, the church told the members one Sunday that those on one side of the aisle were to register Democrat, and those on the other side were to register GOP. The state was evenly divided even having a Democratic majority in the 70s (when I became politically active.) But, mormons are socially conservative and political scientists say the church went heavily GOP over the abortion issue. I know the ERA didn't help, you could see the dividing lines developing over that.

There are some Dem mormons but they are rare. My mormon friends who are democrat guess only 20-25% of mormons are democrats now.

it was not the federal government that complained, churches can have tax exempt status and discriminate...gee...look at gays for heavens sake. It was the Boy Scouts who complained. The LDS church hosts boy scout troops and you couldn't hold an "office" in your troop if you didn't hold the priesthood (all boys starting at about age 12 hold the priesthood) and blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. They could, however, be members of the church and in the early church blacks could hold the priesthood. I think it got lost when the whole nation lost its soul during the civil war.

I'm a third generation atheist raised in Utah (as were the other two generations). You pick up a lot of info living here, trust me. When I was young I thought mormons were the worst. They are not half as bad as fundamentalists. For instance, most mormons believe in evolution and the church has been semi good on the environment and very good on nuclear weapons and waste disposal. We have no gambling here, not even lotteries (I think that is a good thing) and the church does in fact help care for the poor.

It still shocks me to realize that the church and the legislature was Democrat (majority) until the 70s. The abortion issue did it...so say political scientists who have studied it and know more than I do. As with any religion or group, there are some good and some bad. I've been disapointed in Romney on the gay rights issue but on balance, he's no Falwell.

The way I see it, if you can believe in God, you can believe in anything. Nothing is crazier than the original premise. But people of faith don't see it that way.

as the status of the Church was scrutinized for tax-exempt status.

and the ban was lifted in 1978 and it had NOTHING to do with tax exempt status. I was here. I was a lawyer. I followed it very closely. If the feds were involved, please tell me under what theory? And, also, tell me, why this has never been reported before?

Google it. I know of NO decision in the 60s about "leadership" in the church. Espeically since you can't have ANY leadership position in the LDS church if you don't hold the priesthood and blacks couldn't hold the priesthood until 1978. Admittedly, there were some rebelious mormons who gave the priesthood to blacks prior to 1978 but those mormons were excommunicated. It was big news around here.

And since when did tax exempt status have ANYTHING to do with racism? It is an absurd idea. The HUGE debate in the last decade has been over whether to give tax dollars to churches that discriminate. We lost that battle (although I admit I do not know of a racial component to that discussion. A big issue is in hiring only people of that faith and the gay issue with the Salvation Army which came up in San Francisco. Its essentially the same issue as with the Catholic Church and adoption in Mass. There, you have to be licensed to run an adoption service and to be licensed you have to agree not to violate the law INCLUDING the 10 year old law on gender neutrality/gay rights. There is NO threat to tax exempt status. And why would the federal government take away tax exempt status for a church that doesn't "protect" a "protected class" under the law but not other "protected classes"? LIKE WOMEN. Many churches discriminate agains women. They have tax exempt status. This whole discussion is absurd.)

Where in the world are you getting your information? I have no idea why this is of import to you but you have your facts wrong.

(The LDS Church will tell you it had nothing to do with the boy scouts but some black with the help of the NAACP sued the boy scouts. HOURS before the court hearing in June, 1978, President Kimball announced he had prayed on it and god told him to let blacks hold the priesthood.)

they all were seriously f*cked up. I thought my family was dysfunctional until I met them. My family is normal compared to them. Especially the women. I don't know how to describe them... meek and twisted by what they had been taught. Afraid to even speak their minds. What a travesty. :(

other than within the church. Women are seen as support positions only.

which is why stereotypes are so bad. My best friend in the world is/was a mormon (she died) and you'll never meet a cooler liberal. Never.

I'm sure there are plenty of normal well-adjusted ones too, I just have never met one.

I went to Mormon services for a long time, and don't remember hearing that one.

....

sacred, magical underwear that are believed to be bulletproof.
Anyone who (honestly) believes the nonsense promulgated by this CULT is not fit to hold public office, Repub or Dem.

they are worn as a reminder of faith.

Name me one TRUE thing about the mormon church that is nuttier than the beliefs of fundamentalists. You can't. The mormon church has been likened to a big business and in true form, it has "adjusted" its beliefs to better sell them to moderates.

Even if they did believe in bullet proof underwear, is that crazier than believing there is a heavenly father who hears and answers the prayers of billions of people some of whom will go to heaven or hell when they die? Or that Jesus rose from the dead...his body too? Or any other so called miracle from the Bible (swallowed by a whale, Eve is the mother of us all (major amounts of inbreeding). Really, when it comes to indefensible beliefs, all religions have indefensible beliefs based on NO facts.

Nauvoo. They DO believe the magic-undies keep them safe...Jeebus Christ, the STORIES I've heard. My Step-Father-in-Law firmly believes that his 'garments' are the SOLE reason he came back from Vietnam unscathed. There is a protocol for bathing re: the undies (one foot should touch the floor then on go the garments, etc.), as well as a ritual for their disposal (by fire, only).

Tell me, were YOU ever "sealed" in the temple? There are some truly nutty things going on during that little bit of theatre: secret names; penalties and oaths (vowing to slit one's throat if one reveals the 'secrets' of the ceremony); the groom pulling his bride (literally) through 'the veil'..ad nauseum.
And while Fundies are certainly less than astute intellectually in my opinion, I've seen nothing to compare to the full-on WHACKERY
promulgated by the LDS.
Don't even get me started on the "magic peep-stones', or Joseph Smith's mummy, or his conviction for fraud (using divining rods)before his 'Heavenly Revelation'
Biggest bunch of carnival-crap I've ever encountered...although Scientology runs a close second.

I agree. I grew up here as a non mormon and took great delight, in my youth, in making fun of mormons and their crazy beliefs. then I met an evangelical who I wanted to understand. And I started reading up on religion. Do you know that Catholics belive that wafer turns into the flesh of Christ? And that the wine into his actual blood????? Aside from the question: why do they want to eat a human? you gotta admit it is nutty to think after 2,000 years there is still plenty of his flesh and blood to go around to all the Catholics. And nuns actually marry Christ....they have a ceremony with a wedding dress and everything. And priests never marry and can't have sex. And they have the gall to call gays sexual perverts. It's perfectly alright, even honored, to marry a 2,000 year old guy that thousands of other women marry each year but it's not alright to marry one live person of your same sex. Get out. And let's talk about people who speak in tongues. Or play with deadly snakes. Or have fits at revival meetings or who cure cripples with a touch of a palm.

and muslims marry 4 wives and believe they will get 27 virgins in heaven if they die a martyr. While they have HUGE objections to pictures depicting Mohammad they have one of his wiskers in a palace in Turkey in a glass case and someone chants over it 24/7. And they blow up 600 year old statues of Buhda and prohibit their women from leaving the house unless with a male family member.

And Jewish people. There is one group where the woman shaves her head on the night before her wedding and stays bald her whole life. And two kitchens, two sets of dishes so dairy and meat don't touch and what is this Kosher thing? Some Rabbi blesses the food so that's all you can eat? The Rabbi is what? An expert?

And you think wearing underware as a symbol of your faith so god will protect you is crazier than all the other stuff believed in the name of religion?

Frankly, I like the garmets. I can immediately tell if they are mormon and act accordingly.

And the crazy temple ceremonies? they got some/most of them from the masons which is why masons no prohibit mormons from joining (unless that changed in the last 10-20 years. I admit, I didn't follow it much after I left school.) So, you think masons are nutty cultish people not worthy of office? bet we've had plenty of mansons as president...

I didn't get married in the temple but there is a film that purports to reproduce the ceremony. Yeah, it's completely nutty.

But, if you can believe in god, you can believe in anything.

I grew up in Utah and was baptized as a Mormon. I am now an atheist and I'm gay...but I still have family and friends in Utah who are Mormons--good people who I love very much. Although I am a non-believer, I have never been able to understand this obsession some people have with the Mormon Church and trying to discredit it. If you disagree with its teachings, don't follow them.

Nobody in mainstream Mormon churches wears anything like that, nor do they believe in it.

...there are lots of semi-obscure Mormon breakoff groups that still do stuff like that. Maybe some mainstreamers still do it, but I'd never even heard of the practice until after I left church, and I was fairly active.

...so I don't what to tell you.

ain't no splinter group. I'm guessing, though I'm not sure, that most don't believe the "never lose contact with your garmets" anymore. I think that is old school. But I could be wrong. Most of the mormons I know are educated an pretty savy. They don't believe in holding your garmets while you take a bath. But they ALL wear garmets.

Practicing Mormon grandmother who's a regular at the local Temple, practicing Mormon aunts, uncles (one is a bishop) and cousins. I got as far as reaching the Aaronic priesthood before I stopped going.

Have never heard a thing about it.

I'm blown away by your response. I can't imagine spending half an hour with mormons and not knowing about "mormon underwear". Garments are a way of life here. They are worn under the clothes so you wouldn't know if you didn't know where to look. But I'm shocked that you were in the priesthood and didn't know about garments.

Anyone else know the answer? I can't believe that it is local to Utah mormons, I'm pretty sure it is world wide. Every mormon I've known (and that's thousands) either wore them or at least knew about them. You don't wear them until you go though a temple ceremony so all people married in the temple wear them and I think missionaries do...but I'm not so sure of that. Is your mormon family LDS? I've been told those terms are not 100% interchangeable. It is LDS mormons who wear garments.

If any of your family members were married in the temple (and I think Bishops have to be?) then they are supposed to wear garments. I'd be intersted in knowing the answer. Don't Bishops have to be married in the temple and thus wear garments? Ask you Uncle, the Bishop. You can't get the aaronic priesthood until you are 12 and I'm shocked that a 12 year old mormon hasn't seen a garment. Were your parents married in the temple? Are they mormon? What area of the country were you raised in? Were you a member of a different sect?

As to the topic, Mitt wears mormon garments. At least he did when i met him just prior to the olympics.

After all, you have to get a Temple Recommend from your bishop and get cleared to enter and all sorts of things like that. I never made it into the temple but I know plenty of folks who did, and never heard anything about it.

But yeah, I received the Aaronic Preisthood, went through the Deacon, Teacher and Priest stages and was never once informed about a garment or shown a garment or even heard any mention of a garment. Did all the Bishop/First Counselor interviews for each...no garments mentioned. The only dress requirement I ever heard was that once you were a Teacher you had to wear a tie every week (that may have been unique to my ward).

In fact, I played on the interstake basketball team. No garments there, either. I was not reorganized or anything like that...just straight up LDS (D.C. area). The rest of the Mormons in the family are in Utah, with a sprinkling that have sinced moved to New England.

As for temple weddings, I couldn't tell you who out of my brood was married in the temple and who wasn't...but I'm pretty certain at least one cousin was. A good chunk of them (I have 16 cousins total) went on missions, and some even stayed with us during those times....granted they didn't change in front of me, but no mention there either. My parents were not married in the temple.

If I ever saw a garment, I didn't recognize the significance.

by the good garment-wearing mormons I know here in Utah.

one thing I DID get wrong was temple clothing vs garments...not the same thing. You wear special temple clothing in the temple with your garments under. You can rent the temple clothes and must wear them in the temple but you don't have to wear garments to get into all ceremonies in the temple.

You only get garments if you are married in the temple or you go on a mission. You don't get them when you get the priesthood or get baptised. I could guess that mormons outside of Utah don't adhere to the garments thing as much as they do here. In Utah you can tell someone's religion by looking for the tell tell signs of garments...and usually do. (Are you watching Big Love? Hysterical scene a couple of weeks ago with an ad agency telling them to get a spokesperson in garmets as a subtle "hint" that they are a mormon company. That's the way it is here in Utah. Even my liberal democratic mormon friends who are female lawyers always wear their garments.)

They even have special burial clothing...long green skirt with leaves embossed on it and white shirt for women...don't know what it is for men. We only had one mormon woman in the close family...my grandmother who took us to church as kids.

They even have special burial clothing... long green skirt with leaves embossed on it and white shirt for women...don't know what it is for men. We only had one mormon woman in the close family...my grandmother who took us to church as kids.

The burial clothing is the clothes one wears in the temple. If you do a search on google you can see what it looks like - the men wear a hat and the women a vail.

The apron is symbolic of Adam and Eve putting clothing on after she eats the apple and they are made aware they are naked.

Oh and you are right - a person must wear there garments to get into the temple - does not matter where you live. The only way around it is to lie in the interview process.

we were so pissed at grandma's funeral I think I blanked out the "stuff" I learned. It was a mormon funeral even though she was the only mormon in the full, extended family and boy did that Bishop let us all have it! it was like he'd been saving up every slight he could think of to level at us non-believers. I carried a ton of anger over that one. But I gave it up, especially when I realized we did the the same thing for "our" side at dad's funeral...poked a stick in the eye of the intolerant. Human nature. There are so few time sin life we get an audience that has to listen and pretend to be respectful.

...You don't wear them until you go though a temple ceremony so all people married in the temple wear them and I think missionaries do...but I'm not so sure of that...

If any of your family members were married in the temple (and I think Bishops have to be?) then they are supposed to wear garments. ... Don't Bishops have to be married in the temple and thus wear garments? Ask you Uncle, the Bishop.

Missionaries and persons married (sealed) in the temple all wear garments. A bishop, married or not, wears garments - to be a Bishop you must be Temple worthy. To get a temple recommend after you have been through the temple the first time you are asked in an interview 10 questions and one of them is "Do you wear your garments all the time". If you say no - you will not get a temple recommend.

Just on a side note - the OP is very miss informed about the LDS faith as are most of the posters on this thread. (If you don't believe me go to http://scriptures.lds.org/od/2 and notice the date blacks received the priesthood - its 1978 not thee 60's as she claims). I stopped replying because it was obvious she does not care if she is spreading miss-information. If anyone wants to know an answer message me or try posting in the Utah forum for a member or former member to answer your questions. I am technically a member - however Im agnostic. I served a mission - been to the temple etc. I hate it when people spread miss information - even when it is regarding the LDS church - which I I personally do not believe in - however the OP can't even get the doctrine of the church right. If you tell her she is wrong she will attack you and not listen - just see all my posts for an example.

can you witness a wedding, or parts of it anyway, if you have a temple recommend and not wear garments afterwards? I was thinking of younger siblings of the bride for instance. Could the sibling get into the temple to see the ceremony? I thought the garments were only for after certain ceremonies like weddings and the going on a mission thingie.

the thing that threw me was a group of "teen agers" volunteering to be baptised for the dead. I'm thinking they are not garment wearers but got into the temple for the baptism. (article in the paper here...maybe I am misremembering it.)

An unmarried Bishop? Heavens!

(Yeah, the OP is not only misinformed but prefers to remain that way. I'm not fond of defending mormons but really, when you look at other religions? mormons are not one bit stranger! What bugs me is for a DEMOCRAT to be uninformed. BUGS ME. It's one thing for the GOP to slander us based on lies but I do NOT want my party to wallow in the same mud. It's unbecoming.)

The only way to get into see a wedding is to have your endowments out already (this is when you get your garments - its basically a ceremony called Washing and Anointing -there is a handshake they use in the endowment ceremony after the Washing and Anointing that is used in the sealing "marriage"). The only way to get into the temple and not wear garments is to lie to your Bishop and Stake President in the interview. Im sure some people do.

Teenagers can get temple recommends for baptisms only - you do not need to have your endowments taken to do this - so there is no garment required. In fact the most common age to get your garments are 19 for males (going on a mission) and for women older than that - if they go on a mission (21) or get married.

Hope that helps:)

And yes I agree totally about the OP. you should have seen my boyfriend last night- he could tell I was miffed by this thread, he made me take a break. Ignorance is not bliss always - sometimes it can be very damaging. I find I always try to stick up for the truth even when I don't agree with religion/group etc. I hate seeing dems act like the religious right:)

Good Mormons who have had Temple marriages wear garments

by good I mean practicing

I grew up in Logan, Utah

Mormonism is imprinted on my brain (unfortunately I can't get rid of it)

I am not and never was a mormon

His persona is sooo manufactured, its kinda spooky, like a hollow robot
with glimmering beedy eyes, focused on his destiny to be somebody.

He is a crappy, do-nothing Governor who has always been more interested in his political career than governing Massachusetts.

my MA friends who are fighting the good fight!