Question re; outsourcing and new jobs

As someone who is peripherally connected to IT and is depressed I'm trying really, really hard to find an upside to oursourcing but one thing keeps bugging me. The argument that I have heard in favor of outsourcing goes like this.

The jobs that are sent away are jobs that we "really don't need", and that they have two positive side effects. First, individuals are freed up to be able to do "research/innovation based" jobs and the individuals in *insert name of country here* become more affluent and buy more goods thereby helping everyone.

Now here's the thing that I'm wondering.

First, how is it that we are supposed to regear the people who loose their jobs? Keep in mind that most of the innovation jobs have about as much in common with most of the jobs being lost as data entry does with accounting. The thought processes are different, the methods are different, even the goals are different. It is possible to teach this but keep in mind that it becomes more difficult to learn new skills as people become older, especially if they didn't get a foundation in it when they were younger.

Second, when you look at the numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics(I've posted this on DU before), there isn't an increase in the research sectors or if there is it isn't anywhere near as much as one would indicate. The numbers increase are in service and "management" related professions(usually fast food managers where they pay you a very low salary primarily so they don't have to pay overtime). If we are going to move forward to an "innovation based economy" then why don't we have more "innovation based jobs"?

Third, economics tends to move a lot slower then technology, usually by a gap of at least 10 years or so. The process of other countries becoming more prosperous will take time and the prosperity coming back to us will also take time. What is to be done in the meantime?

I'm not trying to play Devil's advocate here, I really want to believe that the trend that we are moving towards isn't going to leave me and most everyone I know jobless and without options.

Though I'm beginning to think more and more than a faction of the democratic party based on education at all levels is a good idea.

Well, thanks for your time

Cassius

A company that had outsourced programming to an Indian firm has brought it all back in-house and I interviewed for a spot on Monday.

that despite the price difference, in some cases the individuals the work is being outsourced to aren't able to do what is asked due to various language and cultural barriers.

some companies are realizing the complexities of managing IT projects, and find out that building and supporting them halfway around the world is a lot harder than they thought. Not saving them nearly as much as they thought. The "deciders" who moved IT jobs overseas originally listened to to bean counters who simply looked at numbers and have no idea how IT works.

Cassius, I'm 40 years old and have worked in IT all my career. I feel your pain. Hang in there...

I'm involved in a poly relationship(meaning my girlfriend has a fiance and everyone knows about everything) and even though it has it's own host of problems it does have one up side. Three adults able to earn income. Though my SO has fibromyalga(SP?) she can work part time and that helps a great deal. Currently we all live in a tiny apartment so we can save money for a new deposit(my landlady pulled 100% of my deposit because my apartment was "dirty" and some appliances were broke even though I didn't break them. I have legal action pending with her) and the money for a convention we're running. After that the money goes towards buying food for storage, precious metals, and repaying debts. And I'm 29, scared half to death, and in therapy for what I think is clinical depression.

Your joint income "goes towards buying food for storage, precious metals and repaying debts."
The food is being stored in an apartment, the lease of which is not in YOUR name. If your girlfriend and her fiance decide they don't need your income anymore, they could change the locks and you're out in the cold. What about the precious metals? Are they in the apt. too? Are they in the form of some kind of stock ownership? Whose name(s) is on that account? If there is a falling out, do you have any written contract, signed by all 3 of you, dated and witnessed as to how assets will be divided? It's statistically unlikely that they debts being paid off are divided proportionally to the income coming in. Is it a from each according to his ability, to each according to his need arrangement?

Emotionally, sounds like her primary connection is to the other guy, since he is the designated fiancee. Look, any port in a storm and all that aside, as soon as you get a job and are back on your feet financially, take your 1/3 of the assets and get into your own place. You can continue to hang with these two socially and re the convention you're running. The sex aspect aside, this is good legal advice to anyone sharing living arrangements. Keep your assets separate knowing full well that at any time, anyone in the arrangement may choose to leave it. You do not have any legal protections in the form of community property or divorce law to protect you.

I rent a storage spot and pay them 1/3 of utilities and $100 a month. Once we get a larger place then I'll continue to keep all of my major personal finances(the silver, gold, etc) in a safe deposit box through my bank. They change the locks, I go to my box and I'm good to go. They get some furniture and home gardening supplies. The only thing we really have joint is food shopping and utilities. It is my personal income that is going toward savings, etc. And you are right, I have no protection whatsoever(sad, but true).

Emotionally, yeah, it's rough sometimes but we make it through better than most in the same situation.

but you know you're never going to find a girl friend of your own while you're in this menage a trois. Good luck!

I am now no longer unemployed.

Guess I'll start on Monday. First place I interviewed with, too!

:party: :toast:

Congratulations!

closer to the truth would be more like this-I've seen more than one rightie economist writing things like we send our jobs to India because Indian workers (unlike their US counterparts) don't demand expensive benefits like health insurance. What they don't say id India and most other countries have socialized medicine, making such benefits unnecessary.

So they don't have to pay benefits. The jobs that come back are in no way, shape, or form equivalent to the positions that left. Except for the work you perform, it is the same.

They send the jobs off, fire people, then bring the jobs back at a reduced rate? Ok, maybe add corporate regulation as a plank.

There is a distinct pattern to the Outsourcing and INSOURCING methods of free trade debate. First, the only jobs outsourced are those that are what I call "portable" as in a company can close a factory here, move it somewhere else and have immediate returns on that investment. Now, the first thing that was outsourced are traditionally Unionized blue collar jobs, Auto and plastics factories mostly. Other jobs, such as computer programming, for India, usually required some type of skill that is rare for MOST people to possess and therefore those jobs weren't outsourced till the target nation itself had an educated class of people that can work those jobs, without costing companies extra in training. The second part of this pattern is insourcing, these are of jobs that are usually not portable, either due to geography and climate, like working in agriculture, or are service based jobs or local construction jobs. Such as roofers or janitors.

Now, these two types of "free" trade actually manifest in two different ways each.

For Outsourcing, the first type is manifested in nations that had or do have strong labor laws or are in a good position to lobby for such laws. Examples of this are India and Korea, however, this is in distinct contrast to most nations that our labor is outsourced to, first, they practiced protectionism till their economies were strong enough to stand on their own, and second, they had stable democratic governments by the time they opened their markets. Even then they have problems, as farmers in both India and Korea can attest, those that don't commit suicide, that is. For the mass majority of nations, most were or are under oppressive regimes and in many cases the companies, mostly American, practically are governments unto themselves, literally running "company towns" where workers live and die under "free trade zones" within their nations. This includes such practices as child labor, indentured servitude, chaining people to their workstations, armed guards, beatings, etc. In both cases the workers get paid anywhere from half to pennies on the dollar compared to American workers, and because of differences in standards of living, or not even bothering to pay a living wage in those nations affected at all, this leads to a depression in wages worldwide, a race to the bottom.

Now, for Insourcing it actually manifests in a similar way, there are two types of insourcing, the legal and illegal kind. The first kind is when companies sponsor for work visas for select immigrants to work a job that they claim Americans cannot fill. The real reason is that these immigrants will accept less pay than Americans, though not below our living standards, this type of insourcing is actually still somewhat rare, though becoming a little more common, but at the same time it is usually temporary because it is usually used for training, a first step to outsourcing. The second type is the one that is causing the big debate in this nation, and that is illegal immigration. Obviously those who come into this nation illegally are ripe for exploitation, they cannot go to the authorities when abuses occur, and usually the conditions are marginally better than they were at home. Oddly enough, they themselves are usually victims of outsourcing, though don't talk about that too much it upsets the Oligarchs. In some cases their conditions here are just as bad as at home, but they didn't come here of their own free will to begin with, human trafficking is common, Chinese sweatshop workers would be an example of this. This also contributes to the race to the bottom.

Its a complicated issue, but it isn't real free trade to begin with, while Corporations have their Capital freed from tariffs and other restrictions on business, but Labor, on the other hand, isn't free at all, we are divided by lines that, to Corporations, are truly arbritrary, and are not entitled to either the same freedoms or protections as Corporations.

and the explanation is helpful, but do you think corporate regulation is the way to go or is there another way to address the issue(I myself like the corporate regulation option because corporations are created with the blessings and through state and federal governments and can be revoked through them as well).

That is part of the appeal of "free" trade as the World Trade Organization pushes it. Companies purposely move their factories to nations with the LEAST amount of corporate regulations, such as safety, minimum wage, and other types of laws. In fact, some of the agreements signed by some nations that already have regulations also erodes those very same regulations or limitations. An example I can give is Chapter 11 of the NAFTA treaty, right now both Mexico and Canada has had to shell out millions of dollars in penalties for limiting the amount of profit that is "entitled" to corporations operating in those nations. The US isn't far behind in this either.

Now, for me I think we need a liberalization of free trade in addition to a little protectionism, let's see if I can explain. Let's take NAFTA as an example, we need to scrap it entirely. Instead, if we are to have any free trade, it should be limited to our region, at first, until other regions have economic sustainability.

OK, so, to expand on the replacement of NAFTA, Mexico is a problem, its economy was already devastated by NAFTA and outsourcing, an extension of the WTO, so their economy needs to be rebuilt, with possible foreign investment, but without strings attached nor the requirement for preferential treatment to foreign owned corporations, in fact the opposite should happen. What we need is an international body over North America that is influenced by the people of all nations affected by the organization, direct votes of representatives, strong protections for worker and human rights, etc. This would include the phasing in of a single currency, in addition to phasing in of freeing up the borders, similar to how the EU operates, but more democratic and transparent.

To be honest, everyone is talking about China being the next economic superpower, within 20 years if not sooner, and if we are to compete on a more equal footing, we would do well to have our economy combine with those of our closest neighbors. The United States does NOT have the labor power of China, and while I have great hopes in China democratizing, I'm not an optimist in that, they are more fascist than anything else, and it would do us well not to depend on them as the factory floor for our own nation.

...because the owner is paying a lot less to have certain services performed that he used to have to pay American employees to do. Therefore, the businer owner

But, the real impact is two-fold:

1. American workers with technical skills find themselves displaced by outsourcing, and

2. The U. S. economy is adversely impacted.

First, American technical workers find themselves competing for jobs in America that are becoming increasingly scarce. That causes U. S. salries/hourly wages to drop due to increased competition for scarce jobs, while the cost of living rises dramatically;

Second, the money paid to technical workers in foreign countries is being spent in THEIR economy. That causes a decrease in the amount of goods and services being bought in the U. S. That, in turn, causes U. S. companies to reduce operating costs so that they can continue to make the same, or better, profits. Those operating costs that are being cut include healthcare benefits and salaries/hourly wages.

American technical workers are caught in a downward spiral that appears to be accelerating with lower salaries/wages, rising fuel costs, rising housing costs, rising utility costs, rising cost of goods/services, less available jobs, and rising costs associated with healthcare.

I'm a certified UNIX System Administrator, a certified Network Administrator, and a certified Network Design Engineer.

I had to switch careers 2 years ago to electrical engineering at a massive pay cut, because the fortune 500 I was working for decided to outsource all of that to India, and Malaysia. There was no "freeing you up to do this" crap. People I had work with for years were just disappearing of the face of the earth, so I found a new job and left before my head got chopped off next. It sucks, because I really hate what I do now, and the money blows.