Al-Qaeda has won. <-Revelation of phone records and tyranny since 9/11

I have but one question for the reader, what do you personally believe Al-Qaeda's goal was on 9/11?

Plainly put, I believe Al-Qaeda wanted our nation to suffer. They wanted us to loose our comfortable lives and the government that made those lives possible. We have been their greatest ally in the achievement of that goal.

Today our nation learned, that our government has been collecting the phone records of millions of Americans. While that isn't exactly wiretapping, it is a disgusting destruction of liberty.

In the past few years, our people have lost sight of the truth. We have blinded by fear and hatred. Our President has taken advantage of this blindness, and used it for his own personal gain. Time and again he has asked for more authority, and time and again we gave it to him.

Now we realize how foolish that was. We will be no safer with tyranny than with terrorism. We have replaced one problem with another. And now we pay the consequences for our collective lack of character.

All Americans are now suspected terrorists. The only thing separating us from being considered a full "Al-Qaeda" operative, is a terrorist dialing the wrong phone number.

Al-Qaeda has won. Somewhere in a cave, Osama Bin Laden must be jumping up and down in joy, for he has caused the downfall of the most admirable and powerful example of liberty in human history, America.

Most people did not know responding to terrorists could lead us down such an awful path, but in principle such a response was an act of enabling tyranny. Terrorists use fear and hatred to get what they want and so to have tyrants throughout the history of man. Tyranny is both the arbitrary use of authority and the authority of the few or one over a larger group. Fear and hatred are the most deadly poisons to liberty because they enable tyrants.

Republics have fallen ill with hatred and fear many times before. Germany's Weimar Republic is the most powerful example. Adolf Hitler managed to stir a large majority of Germans into a frenzied hatred of the Jewish people and other minorities. He managed to use that hatred gain control of Germany, and then he used fear to keep that control. We all know the horrors of that time, but we also know our present situation is altogether different.

The Roman Republic may be the closest example to our nation's current state. The start of Rome's Empire, which would one day be ruled by the likes of Caligula and Nero, came with an act of hate by Rome's people lead by Tiberius Gracchus. Gracchus used the people to depose a fellow tribune who stood in the way of his reforms, and in the process he destroyed one of the Roman Republic's time honored traditions, the origination of legislation in the Senate. This act is widely recognized by historians as the beginning of the end for the Roman Republic because it opened the door for the instability of mob rule. It was only a matter of time before Gaius Julius Caesar rose to absolute power with popular support, and that was the beginning of the Roman Empire. While some may remember Rome's empire days as its best, those days were only the best for the people at the very top, but even for them it was unstable. Assassinations and forced suicides became common practice in Roman politics. The lower classes were even worse. Slavery abounded. The most horrible part of Roman society during the empire might be the Colosseum, where slaves would fight to the death for the entertainment of the people, a most barbaric practice. All this has been recorded throughout the ages in history.

The history of America in the next few years still remains to be written. It is altogether possible that we the American people may reverse the fall of our nation, but it requires the most difficult act. We must rise above our hatred of the terrorists and the fear we have of them attacking our nation again. Only then can we begin to defeat tyranny at home and terrorism abroad.

We must, for the sake of the victims of 9/11, pursue the terrorists and bring them to justice, but for the sake of those victims we must also make sure that this justice is of the highest integrity. Our nation has already allowed the profoundly inhumane treatment, and some might even say torture, of terrorist suspects. This allowance is symbolic of the blind hatred and fear of the terrorists we have, it has sullied the names of the 9/11 victims, and has shamed our nation before the world. It may not be as bad as other disgusting acts in history, but that fact does not make it any less disgusting or symbolic.

It is absurd to believe not pursuing Al-Qaeda is what they want, but it is completely logical to believe that they wish us to come down to their level and destroy our lives. The terrorists attacked us with blind rage on 9/11, and when we respond with the same rage we enable their tyranny. Our hatred has blinded us to the subtle destruction of our nation at our own hands. In pursuit of one tyranny we allowed another one to grow at home. It is only a matter of time before someone comes along, in much the same way as Julius Caesar, and takes absolute power with popular support.

Our President has taken some power, but it is not possible to call him an absolute dictator. The greatest danger our President poses is the one of creating precedent. His actions now, may be used later by someone else with the sole intention of becoming a dictator. We must respond to his actions with a united front. We must openly and fully condemn his actions, and if those actions have violated the law, he must be prosecuted. This will reaffirm our liberties and show the world and history that America will not succumb to the hatred and fear of the terrorists and their goal of destroying our way of life.

we've certainly served them up a heaping pile of success when it comes to destroying that freedom. But it didn't cost them a dime from 9/12 onward...we've done all the work ourselves.

This is the rub. No one can take our freedom & liberties from us BUT us. Horrible acts of terrorism affect us deeply, but they have no power to actually change us as a people. I guess, though, that is why they call it terrorism; some will be so terrified they will willingly hand over their civil liberties hoping someone will keep them "safe".

How ironic, that repubs view us as the the weak ones when they are the ones to throw away everthing that makes us American in the name of "fighting the terrorists". Then again, irony escapes republicans.

You summed it up so well. Got my point exactly. YEAH!!!!

No one in their right mind would deny that the hard core of Al Quada consist of dangerous lunatics. That does not negate the fact that Al Quada and allied organisations enjoy a pretty large backing from many people in the middle east because of America's own doing.

If one were to look at the not-so-public record of actions, you'd discover that America has enjoyed the company of brutal regimes and support bloody dictators, Hussein included, for corporate gain and strategic influence.

For example, considering America's very broad support for Israeli state-terrorism that has been going on for more than half a century it can be called a miracle some disgruntled palestinians haven't taken up arms against the US on a broad scale.

The focus on America's values being the target is just a ruse used to serve two functions, instill hatred against the enemy and reinforce patriotic feelings by the perpetuating myth of uniqueness that is so common among nationalistic nations.

Now apparantly the Bush government is thinking of bombing Iran, with nuclear weapons no less! What irony! Who are we, the west, to dictate the world who can and cannot have nuclear weapons? After all, America has the doubtful honor in the history books of being the first to use nuclear weapons, and even against civilian population centers.

It is of course imperative we fight terrorism as best we can, but within the limits of our justice system without expanding it, and while we fight terrorism now, we musn't close our eyes for the truth and also do something about our manipulative and inhuman policies abroad.

But from what I see even from so-called progressive people who like to believe in fairy tales I don't hold out much hope for the latter.

Are the cities nothing but ruins? Have the churches and synagogues been converted to mosques? Is there any point in public or private education now? If you ask people: What was America? Do they recall it was once a country or has it been forgotten from history?

her principles are gone. Her mindset is gone. But all hope is not lost. We still have the ability to change this nation. There will be elections. It is up to every Democrat to get every person they can educated about what Bush and his fellow Republicans have allowed. It is so horrible, that I wouldn't doubt they would vote for us or not vote at all.

"elections" won't mean anything. You just can't win after losing. If its dead, its no more and one election won't redeem was has happened.

If America's values are no more and it is a force of evil in the world then you can elect the most left-wing Democrat possible and the rest of the world will still be plotting against you. Some might argue its the least you deserve for what you have done in the last few years.

The second Bush is out of office billions of people will breath a collective sigh of relief.

America isn't perfect but it's a hundred times worse under B*sh. Compare how Clinton is greeted around the world compared to B*sh. There is literally a "world" of difference.

OBL's goals and, by association, Al Qaeda's goals are not about America and Americans. They are concerned about their own situation and how our nation's acts affect it. OBL hated America for its presence and influence in the Middle East. He wanted us out of Saudi Arabia, out of the Middle East as a whole. That was his goal. He didn't hate us because we are free. That's a bullshit, pandering bit of nonsense from the Bushies. He didn't give a rat's ass whether we were free or not. His goal was to change his own world, not ours.

I'm sure, though, that you're right in saying he's loving this. It may not have been the goal he was after, but it's a sweet bonus for him. If he had any manners, he'd send Bush a nice thank you note.

is the reason 3,000 people died on 9/11. It takes pure hatred to get someone to kill themselves. These people are complete and total fucking nutcases. Suspicion and political goals may motivate Al-Qaeda's leadership, but not the people at the bottom. Those people are sucked in by suspicion and hate. Every time we kill another loved one, there survivors become another potential terrorist.

We have had the worst strategy in this war. Terrorist organizations, IMHO, are like chickens they can still run around crazy without their head. The only way to stop terrorism is to starve the beast.

If we deny them new recruits they will either slowly die off because they use suicide tactics, or they will resort to fighting conventionally. Either way we will have a better position and either one will help to prevent terrorist attacks.

I think President Bush's idea of preemptive war is irresponsible and destructive of our goals. We may kill off the head, but the body continues to live. We may try to kill off large numbers of Al-Qaeda terrorists, but we just give people a reason to join Al-Qaeda.

A few short conclusions I have come to:
1. Even though President Bush has used and abused our hatred and fear of terrorists, and distorted the significance of their attacks, there really are terrorists.
2. We could try to build up fortress walls and beat down liberty, but I would much rather get the army on the other side of the wall to stop fighting us.
3. Anyone who is an official member of Al-Qaeda is too far gone to negotiate with. They are simply too full of hatred.
4. Most of the people in Southwest Asia hate our guts. This has the halo effect of creating more terrorists. President Bush thinks the solution to this is to start a war, and piss off more potential terrorists. That is wrong. The people who have not joined Al-Qaeda are redeemable. They can be negotiated with and they will be our greatest ally in defeating terrorism.

I know a lot of Americans are going to be highly suspicious of anyone who talks about preempting terrorism because the Village Idiot has changed the meaning of that to preemptive war. I mean preemptive care and love to win the hearts and minds of Southwest Asians. It can be done, and all hope is not lost. It is going to be difficult, and even though Mr. Bush is a complete ass, he is right when he says there may be more terrorists attacks. He is also right, though like all the other words he has redefined the meaning of, when he says "we cannot let the terrorists shake our will" he has interpreted that to mean we should stay in Iraq indefinitely, when I say that I mean we cannot loose our liberty and our democracy, and our ability to hunt down the terrorists and bring them to justice with integrity.

that there are many fundamentalists who hate America. But for them to carry out a major attack on US soil takes either a lot of luck or inside complicity. I believe it's the latter.

if you read the full transcript of his November '04 videotape (on al-Jazeera's website) he mentions how the WH has helped al-Qaeda enormously (this section was censored from the transcript on the CNN site).

"I have but one question for the reader, what do you personally believe Al-Qaeda's goal was on 9/11?"


Lets just see who actually gained from 911? Who? Look around and use your common sense, your eyes and ears. It's pretty obvious who the real 'enemy' is, and who profited from this disaster. Follow the money. Whenever you are confused, just follow the money. It really is that simple.

Here is where I wish I could kick and recommend a single post instead of a whole thred.

our nation on 9/11. In fact most of their attacks occurred during the administration of President Clinton. While I do agree that President Bush has used 9/11 to his favor, I am highly doubtful he perpetrated the attacks.

I think he might have let it happen, however. We do know that he is supposed to have read the August 6, 2001 PBD with specific warnings about terrorists planning attacks. He was specifically warned that terrorists were planning on hijacking airplanes. He did not have the knowledge, or at least it was not presented to him, that the terrorists were planning to crash those airplanes into buildings.

It is very possible that he could have let it happen. I would give it a 50/50 probability.

The thing that is so weird about this President is that everything is 50/50:
1. He is either an incompetent fool or;
2. He is an evil genius who wants us to think he is incompetent.

I just can't tell.

the term "al queda" doesn't really mean anything.. it sort of is more like saying, "file folder", not even in the realm of "Boy Scouts", as a literal translation..

someone, or some news service mentioned this in an article, a real eye opener. Al Queda is an invention, a madison avenue style sale brought to you by psychops.

This isn't to say there aren't some nasty asses out there who I could put a hole in and sleep real sound that night (I was trained to kill in the 70's and have had a top secret clearance), but to be honest this whole shitstorm should have been nothing more than one of two things, either a world wide LEGAL action, investigation, trial, and consequences.

Or two: Covert action to kill those needed to be killed.

Our country is like a family, we need a BIG STRONG FATHER to PROTECT us. Part of Protecting your children is to not SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM, or go next door and Kick the shit out of the guy you lent your rifle to, or shoot him with it.

THis entire sick episode was created to rob us of all liberty, and with a growing world population, ask any Futurist (Toffler, etc) and you'll find that the more people on the planet, the more they get tagged, bagged, or never reach the industrial revolution.

Anyone who studies anthropology knows that whenever two groups meet, the one with the best technology wins, period. There's only one problem. The ones with the best technology are using the money they got from us to declare US the Enemy and use that technology against US.

Better bone up on your computer skills, take some engineering classes, and learn how to climb a tree, and make a bow and arrow in it and from it that you can use when needed :)

Low tech can be just as dangerous under the right circumstances. Just ask the terrorists.

literally that could mean ANYTHING. "The Base"? So it's Bin Laden's "base" or all muslims "base", or the Iraqi "insurgents" 'base'?

It's so nondescript as to be an ideal (and oh so scary sounding), boogieman terminology..

meaningless. But good for fear mongering.

thanks

That's why we are fighting this useless war.

Google: Chossudovsky

Are you here just to distract?

Why aren't you outside the White House protesting each day if you think Bush perpetrated 9/11?

How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

http://orlingrabbe.com/binladin_timosman.htm

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/465/465p15.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html

Who in the world are you to tell me what to do or how to be effective?

Why don't you wake up to the real world and stop living in lies and illusions in order to make you feel safe?

The CIA is not Bush. But you already know that.

Bush and key fugures in the Bush administration probably knew something about it, but what makes you think that if Al Qaeda is a CIA asset, that Bush must have planned 9-11?

More logically, if Al Qaeda is a CIA asset, then the CIA planned 9-11. More precicely, it wasn't just the CIA but certain elements within various intelligence agencies and government branches.

follow the financial links of who paid for 9/11 and who they're allied to then you'll start to get an idea of how these things happen.

And it depresses me.

Think to the future. When your great grandchildren open their history books, who will the most influential people in American history be? George Washington? Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Martin Luther King? No, the most influential people in American history will be the 19 mass murderers who killed 2,986 Americans in 2001.

Because of them, America has flipped on its head and turned from a sedate Republic into an aggressive Imperium. Where once we were humanitarian and commercial in nature, now we're a paranoid and abusive nation. At one time, the thought of Americans employing torture on ANYONE would have turned stomachs of any American - Now half of our nation is demanding it even be used against hteir fellow citizens!

All because of these nineteen assholes and their Idiot accomplice in the White House.

No, I don't believe the US government had any involvment in 9/11 - except, perhaps, allowing it to happen. They sure as hell took advantage of it to screw America over.

AlQaeda.

but could you show me what I'm missing.

http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=31ad86f7-d090-4db2-9032-7dab1a61dabb

:toast:



EDIT: Clarified subject.

Yesterday the Cafferty File, today salon.com that is soooo coool. I just called my girlfriend that is sooooo exciting.

:bounce:

eye wish eye cood rite gud.

:)

:rofl:

I thought it was actually pretty funny. I was reading it to my girlfriend, and we were too slow to get it at first, but then we did!

:rofl:

American Citizens "accidentally"- oops wrong number

booom, suddenly you are on a terror watch list

No one has said how long it takes for someone to be cleared. No one has said where the calls go. Or for how long they stay around for use by the DOJ or any other organization.

Carried out with cheap disposable cell phones. To be horribly cyncical, they may chuckle to themselves while they do it. W is such a joke. National Security, my ass.

That's why George Bush has to take our freedom away.



:sarcasm:

Do you know, or do you want to deny the truth of who Al-Quaeda is?

Who are the real terrorists? Are you really interested in the truth, or do you want to continue to demonize, dehumanize and scapegoat innocent individuals and believe what you have been told to believe by this Administration?

that carried out several terrorist attacks during the Clinton Administration.

Don't just cop to some vague distant villain which has no legitimate proof - you as an American citizen should start demanding answers as to who these individuals actually are.

Should we protest, or ask Congress or something?

I guess we could interview his family or something. It is all so complicated.

That's waht I've always believed. For some reason which I don't get, the majority of Americans willingly lined up to put on shackles after 9/11. when I would point it out to them, they'd look at me like I was crazy and then call me un-American-when they are the un-American ones.

They tried to turn Americans into fear mongerors and have pretty well succeeded.

The idiocy of it is unbelievable. W and the bushbots allow (encourage) border crossings, fail to inspect ship containers,....but monitors and records calls from American citizens. These people are nutso.

would that be??? Since we don't actually HAVE any, anymore............

But he and his enablers have pretty well destroyed the Constitution. I heard a guy on C-Span talking on civil liberties tonight, once the president denies and usurps them, they are gone for all time. The presidency won't relinquish them.