Democracy CANNOT exist among people who are religious FANATICS.

That is my theory. Iraq is doomed to fail because of the strong sectarian makeup. US democracy is founded on a separation of church/state or state/church, however you look at it. In the past, Americans have been balanced enough between religious nuts and truly religious people (they won't kill somebody for their religion although they would die for it). There has always been a healthy mix of atheists, agnostics, and opportunists. As we approach fundie critical mass, we are losing our democracy. This evangelical strain is relatively new with its talk of the Rapture, etc. These ideas are very bad for business, if your business is democracy.

You history wonks.....please weigh in. Examples, counter examples. I mean fanatical religion. I think true Muslims, Christians, whatever can have a democracy.

another would have no chance

be they religions, political or philosophical.

Extremists are fine as long as they don't try to force their opinions on others. Unfortunately, this is rarely ever the case, if at all.

Glad that was brought up, because it seldom is.. especially by those grinding an anti-religious axe.

welcome to DU! :hi:

George Soros has famously said that you can't have an open society if one side or the other in the political debate believes they are in possession of ultimate truth. When that occurs you can't really have debate and if reality fails to support your argument you must reject reality, which is not just dangerous to society but to life and limb as well. Some extreme cases in history include the Inquisition and the Salem witch trials but also the rise of totalitarian Communism and Fascism in the last century.

now seem antithetical to that thought culture. It can be argued that Democracy flowers under certain rare circumstances and can't be "imposed" on "un-enlightened" individuals. That would seem to be a "duh" type realization. Why are the so called leaders of this nation making these horrible mistakes? The are un-enlightened. Far from just a philosophical point in this case, the future of the world rests on the rectification of this grave error, imo.

truth. How could we not be? You aren't suggesting that republicans are EVER right are you?

I think if we're committed to a process of rigorous debate, though, then we'll get closer to the truth than folks who think they've already found it. Are Republicans ever right? Of course they are but I'm currently at a loss to come up with a good example.

superior truth; it's how comprehensive it is, what you think should be done about it.

Many people were killed for a species of 'socialism' that was seen as a stepping stone; it wasn't the ultimate truth, but a superior truth, by any measure. It was the one truth path, but the goal was far off, and stopping on the path was wrong. And people had to be pushed along the path.

People can believe they have 'ultimate truth', but if that truth also says you can't make somebody submit to it, yippee. It's rather like believing you have the ultimate Grand Unified Theory--it doesn't mean you go to a competing physics conference and either blow them up or try to get a law made forcing them to submit to your view.

Both the overblown horrors of the Inquisition and the witch trials were transitory, but the certainty in the truths involved preceded and followed them.

Just believing in an angry, judgmental God is not enough to make them control their own behavior. They need an angry, judgmental government to be God's emissary and force them (and everyone else) to live according to their twisted interpretation of the Bible.

We've had 2 Great Awakenings. "The Rapture" is new, though. Even Fundamentalism itself is not the enemy. Many Fundamentalist churches were oppressed by Established Churces in the past & are wary of government involvement in religion.

The Religious Right co-opted the Southern Baptist Convention in the 80's (?) & is still gaining power. The unholy embrace of the SBC & the Republican party began here in Texas. And one of the leaders of the movement--Tim LaHaye--is a co-author of the Left Behind books, which introduced The Rapture to the general public. True Fundamentalists reject The Rapture--it ain't in The Bible.

theology and the extreme views of RWer religion. I just don't see it in the teachings of Jesus.

or as it is often called, the secret pretribulational rapture of the Church. He's only the most recent author to capitalize on its promulgation. This doctrine (part of a system called Dispensationalism) was introduced to America in the late 1800's first by its inventor John Nelson Darby, then popularized by one Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, whose Scofield Reference Bible beacme quite popular by the early 1900's. Most theologians of the day held the whole system in low esteem, but it caught on in America. In the 1970's the doctrine was widely popularized through the writings of Hal Lindsey, author of "The Late Great Planet Earth". Most fundamentalist churches and denominations in the US subscribe to Dispensationalist eschatology. Most adherents to the various flavors of Reformed theology and many Methodists reject Dispensationalism, as do Lutherans and Roman Catholics.

Todd in Beerbratistan

And he's also got his fingers in many of the Religious Right's pies.

states, even Jefferson had problems with them. At the turn of the century fundies were powerful enough to get Prohibition laws passed. Look at the 1950's and see how fundies used fear of the USSR to get religious sayings on court houses and other government buildings. As far as I can tell, every 20 to 30 years fundies do what they are doing today, then when converts wake up and realize they been lied to the fundie movements die out. We are just going through a fundie cycle and they will start declining and losing their power with-in the next 10 years.

and I say that because your post resembles nothing more than something made up to sound correct. Please quit with the blanket "fundies" claim. You sound as paranoid as the fundies yourself.. which does nothing to deal with the problem. Prohibition came about mostly because of a women's movement, it was a Christian temperance movement for women, but much of the support for temperance came from the wider public.

Fear of the USSR was not something that came from fundamentalists.. nor did they have a hand in religious sayings being placed on courthouse walls. Our laws do have a basis in yes, religious laws, that is why you will see references to the ten commandments, Hammurabi (sp?) et al, in some courthouses and on federal judiciary buildings.

let me just say that from that point of view you appear to be apologizing for them. A fundie is a fundie is a fundie, and they're easy to spot. Yes, it's a very broad brush, but in this case, it's a correct view of this particular group.

Fundies do exactly what the above poster contends; I, however, would apply a tighter cycle. Every 15-20 years, they gain a bit of power, which they then lose, only to start gaining it again. It's a cycle that as far as I can tell from my reading of history began in earnest around the turn of the last century. Prohibition, McCarthyism, Vietnam (well, the whole Cold War, but even then, they would gain and lose power throughout), the Reagan era, and now the Bush regime- each time, eventually sane people have stopped them- and, make no mistake, the fundies are insane.

The very worst of the fundies seek to, ultimately, usurp our elected government; see Katherine Yurica's The Despoiling of America for an analysis of their "plans". These people are real, and dead serious about what they're trying to do; I myself have in the past dealt with people who believe "the Bible should replace the Constitution". They quite simply cannot be reasoned with. No argument works on them- ever.

They are mad and chillingly dangerous. Their points of view deserve no consideration, their attitudes deserve to be utterly repudiated, and their ultimate goals deserve to be mercilessly shut down.

on their history.

If you don't know that the uber religious in this country had a LOT to do with the demonization of Communism and the inclusion of God into our pledge and on our national currency, you need to read up.

This is no longer true.

...Majority rule doesn't work in mental institutions...

fundie or not fundie. You cannot vote for God. In theory you could vote for the Pope, but name a major religion where the authorities are elected by the masses ? Not even in Iran. The rules are already settled, they are in a book. They cannot be wrong, because they are the word of God. The rest is the job of the translator.....

in a democratic society, religion can only be a PURELY PRIVATE matter. Which means the right to believe in whatever you want, as long as the RITE DOESN'T HARM ANYBODY ELSE. All references to religion must be banned from public affairs, no tax deductions etc... Religion for the state is only interesting as a cultural phenomenon.

it doesn't matter if the religion is fundamentalistic or not, because if the rules aren't settled once for all and with strength, some religions will turn fundie and try to take over because it is in their nature.

America has a long way to go, because she never really understood the problem (excvept for Jefferson and some) and pays the price for it today.

the ones who think consumer and environmental protections should go unregulated.

of course, when it comes to using lobbyists to pay off congresspeople for laws that help them, they're not really free marketeers anymore.

:shrug:

I don't think it's just the Christians who try to influence though.

There never was, and, will never be, seperation of church and state. It's just a nice sounding phrase.


my 2 cents -- What Makes U.S. So Exceptional? (2006-05-12)

That all advertisement is a lie. I get the same feeling when politicians start talking about their religion. If you acted in a moral way, people won't question your motives and religion is a non-issue. Its the politicians that are trying to pull a fast one that need to loudly proclaim their religion.

Lord and don't do the things I tell you to do?" Turn the other cheek. Give to the poor. Judge not. DO GOOD TO YOUR ENEMIES....FEED THEM.....GIVE THEM A DRINK IF THEY'RE THIRST....ETC!

You are right. It is so obvious that so many of our leaders are hypocrites. "Do as I say and not as I do" sort of thing. Although, they won't admit doing wrong or not doing what "Jesus would do".

that attempts to supress thought is antithetical to democracy.

Thus, Stalinist communism, fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Christianity, any system that requires absolute belief simply can't be democratic. If you don't have a choice about as something as personal as religion, then they will have no problems taking away choice about speech, or assembly, or free elctions.

are monarchist and fundamentally anti-human and anti-individual freedom

The Puritans were sorta democratic (big influence on later dem. traditions) and they were raging, balls-out, rolling-eyes witch-burning religious weirdo freaks. Then again, is democracy always good? Is it okay to drown a thirteen year old girl because everyone agrees that she's possessed by the devil?

no witches were burned in Salem. All but one were hung; the other was pressed to death with stones. And some, like my direct ancestor, died in jail awaiting execution.

If this was about to be done to a "gang member" or "sex criminal" in the US today, there are even people on DU who would support it. The taste for barbarism never seems to ebb.

He refused to speak, even as they put heavier and heavier stones on his chest.

You can't really call Massachusetts Bay Colony a democracy, but it was definately a theocracy. And most folks know what happened in 1692 around Salem and North Andover. What most folks don't know is what stopped the witchcraft hysteria was that the governor's wife was accused of witchcraft. Government quashed the preachers.

Democracies can be every bit as corrupt and brutal as any dictatorship. I give you, as an example, the United States of America.

"true" conservatives