ARE YOU WAITING UNTIL THEY CLOSE DFA IN YOUR STATE OR WILL YOU HELP NOW

In the wake of a revelation that millions of Americans are being snooped on I discovered why my DEMOCRACY FOR AMERICA (DFA) founded by Howard Dean had stopped emailing me in Alabama. It is because after eavesdropping on DFA the Department of Homeland Security shut them down in my state.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1153183

They still operate in other states and here's the email I missed:



USA Today published a major cover story reporting that the "National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans." If you use AT&T, Verizon or BellSouth, your personal and business phone records may have been turned over to the NSA.

This isn't eavesdropping on suspected terrorists. This is a massive search and seizure of your personal information. Every phone call you make -- across town or across the country -- is being tracked by the NSA. And guess what? President Bush defends this with his usual double-speak. At a hastily arranged White House event this morning, Bush stated, "We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of Americans." However, that is exactly what the Bush administration is doing. As USA Today reports, "The today is considered expert in the practice of 'data mining.'"

Congress needs to investigate this government intrusion...immediately. Call on the House and Senate today to issue subpoenas and expose the extent of this intrusion:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/nsa

Senator Arlen Specter has already indicated that he's willing to call on the heads of the companies involved to appear before the Justice Committee. But that's not enough. Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez and former AG John Ashcroft need to be brought before Congress. And, unlike in past charades, they need to testify under oath.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/nsa

We'll deliver the petition to the Republican and Democratic leadership of the House and the Senate.

Tens of millions of innocent Americans are affected by this warrantless surveillance. Both you and I could be included. I urge you to join Democracy for America in the call for a full investigation into this latest Bush administration intrusion on our privacy.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/nsa

Thank you,

Tom Hughes
Executive Director

>It is because after eavesdropping on DFA the Department of Homeland Security shut them down in my state.<

Can you point me to a source for the statement? Is this something DFA has actually stated for the record somewhere?

Mostly

to prop up something that's been dying for awhile now.

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especially since the OP has nothing to do with them.

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my assumption is just as fair and valid. where's the "active" B'ham DFA chapter. For some reason, DFA never seems to get off the ground in my state. Can you see why?

Are you serious? I also don't believe the NSA has anything to do with the DFA shutting down. They probably ARE using the latest news issue to prop up support. Does that make me a trolling freeper that deserves scorn and personal attacks? I think you need to calm down and learn to live with opposing viewpoints.

Who and what you are matters very little to me. Getting the petition publicized is my primary motivation. Your post appeared to be an attept to kill my thread for no good reason. It's as simple as that.

what post? The above post was my first post. I think you need to sit back and organize your thoughts.

I agree, it's entirely possible that the poster is a well-intentioned dissenter trying to make a point. I have no problem with that.

To be honest, my participation in this thread has gotten out of hand. Frankly, I was pissed that by simply asking for a source, I got lumped in as a troll. That pretty much blinded me to whatever else was to come, and I went full steam ahead at whomever happened to be in the way. My argument was with Jefferson'tGhost, with whom I seem to now have made some peace, and I threw somebody, unjustly, under the bus in my anger.

So, to M_Moretti, I apologize for labeling you as a troll, absent any significant proof of that. It was wrong of me to do so and I regret it.

On Edit:
And to be perfectly honest, there is some measure of resentment here. I've been called a troll consistently since I came to DU. First it was because I didn't have enought posts. Then it was because I doubted the claims of vote fraud. Now it's because I'm asking for sources. Try as I might to let it roll off my back, I'm sure it's built up a healthy bit of anger on my part. So I'm sure I've now begun projecting onto others, unwisely. I'll try to watch that in the future.

Mostly

If we feel paranoid it's okay. If we feel mad, it's okay. If we feel like lashing out at someone, it's okay. What our government is doing is NOT okay, though.

it is very sad to see democracy dyin...

Is it okay to build the data-base or is this illegal search and seizure in violation of the Bill of Rights?

It's not dying any faster than YOUR civil liberties are.

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as im sure you can tell there are a LOT of different people here

and this is really difficult time when you care about democracy so its no wonder there are short tempers or misunderstandings
people are angry so i hope youll understand that with so many people with so many issues to be upset about that there will be some you agree with and some you dont
some you enjoy talking with and some you wont but we are all after essentially the same thing

truth and justice

take good care mostly
its a bumpy ride so make sure to buckle up (and if you ever need to use the ignore button or take a break dont hesitate to take care of yourself)

As for using the ignore option, I simply don't. Call it highminded or masochistic, but I just think that the ignore button is a means of isolating oneself from dissenting viewpoints. I don't care for the idea behind it, namely that it's better to hide from people you don't like than it is to learn how to co-exist with them. That's the whole of what I believe is killing the country. So I don't use it. But that's me, and I certainly don't begrudge others using it (I'm sure I'm on a few ignore lists. Probably one more by the end of this thread ;)).

The thing is, I don't feel I am in any way in the wrong here and I fell like Jefferson'sGhost is. Perhaps I was a bit over the top in my rebuttal - I'll cop to the fact that my post-tempter goes from 0 to mach 5 in a heartbeat - but I stand by the fact that asking for sources should NEVER be grounds for suspicion of trolling. Not ever. Sources are the fundamental basis on which DU operates (save for the Lounge, where sources aren't really relevant). LBN requires sources in every post. And while the OP was not in LBN, it certainly had LBN type overtones, what with its statement of a news fact as the basis for the post (i.e. DFA Alabama was shut down).

I understand that it's often not done because it's difficult to find a source when you want to post, or it's difficult to provide links in every single thing you post, etc. But for someone to ask you to back up your claims and you to get all snotty, that's just crap. It's like someone saying "Clinton is a murderer. Trust me." There's nobody on this board who would take that shit lying down, not least me. But when we make claims about the other side - "The government shut down DFA" - I'm just supposed to take that on faith?

No way. For no other reason than I might want to use this in conversation later and if I don't have a source, then it's basically useless.

I even tried to make my request for a source as language neutral as I could. It was not accusatory, did not express doubt, did not contain even a mote of naysaying. I simply asked for a link to back it up. I even THANKED Jefferson'sGhost when s/he gave me the requested link.

Mostly

This is all freaky to me... I never expected America to become like this. I'm sure we're ALL pissed off and a little more paranoid today. You're ok by me MostlyLurks. Thanks for the kicks.

I think we can agree that, to some extent, we were both a little nuts in dealing with each other.

Like I said somewhere else, my post-temper is pretty quick. I apologize for the nastiness and puerile tone of my previous posts.

Mostly

did you see where a perfectly good computer of mine died for no good reason last week? then, I wonder why there's no DFA email in my box after I fire up my new machine. Then, I hear DHS is keeping the biggest data-base in history on ALL Americans in direct violation of the Bill of Rights. then, I discover DHS closed down a new Alabama server and I've wanted DFA in Alabama for quite a while. Then, I post the thread and it gets burried in record time. It's not you. I'd be mad if ANYONE even remotly implied I was a freeper. it's me, I'm pissed and paranoid. But is it paranoia if they REALLY ARE watching you and me?

but FYI, I don't use the ignore button as a way of isolating myself from dissenting viewpoints. I use the ignore button as a way of isolating myself from posters whom I feel do not argue rationally, who make personal attacks, or whom generally strike me as not worth expending the mental energy to argue with.

Interestingly enough, I see an awful lot of "ignored" in this thread. :evilgrin:

absolutely you are correct to ask for sourcing
that is done quite often here as im sure youve seen and is the truly smart approach

sometimes that source has been posted but its later in the thread or sometimes edited in later so its just important for all of us to have the full information before we get too riled up and post

and i know also that with so very many people here its harder to get to know one another as well so one may be a friend but hasnt been here long enough or for whatever reason - good and bad - they can be seen as a potential disruptor
there have been lots of that as there are on any message board

remember too that there are a great many people who want to divide us so if anyone here poses assertions or "questions" (or worse) then im sure you can understand there are those who will give a good fight back (perhaps too quickly sometimes but there is a lot of good reason behind it)

you have every right to defend yourself and as ive said - to ask for legitimate sources
i applaud you for wanting backup
and as you say when you take these facts outside of du then you all the more want to be able to back up your statements

and i appreciate your honesty about your temper
we all have that especially of late so i just encourage all of us to take deep breaths
and since ignore is not an option you choose then more power to you
you have a great skepticism and you want to engage in strong truthful discussion

so as i said - i think were all coming from the same place~~

take good care friend and have fun
i do appreciate you talking this out honestly so that we can all get to know one another
there is so much good here and we need all the strength we can get

sorry it took me so long to write back
i just logged back on

So it's now official policy that one cannot defend oneself against accusations of trolling, or else said post will be deleted. What a Goddamned joke. I have to sit idly by while they lob accusations at me but when I post a rebuttal, I'm the one who gets their posts pulled. So calling somebody a "troll" is not nearly as bad as calling them a "jackass".

And yet all my fucking mea culpas and those will stay on the fucking site until the fricking big crunch.

Please tombstone me. Seriously. I've fucking had it.

Mostly

I READ ALL YOUR POSTS!

Please, whoever has the power to do so, tombstone this account.

On Edit: And please realize it's not the fact that we got into an argument that's brought me here. I'm OK with disagreeing with a DUer and getting into a dust-up. I have no problem with that, it's the nature of the web.

But I'm just tired of not being able to defend myself against the accusation. Eventually perception becomes reality, so if my replies to accusations of troll-ery are so dangerous that they have to be routinely deleted, then clearly I have become a troll, even though I never intended to. I'm obviously not among my people.

I have no problem with you, Jefferson'sGhost. None at all. You seem a reasonable sort. Peace.
Mostly

to another of your posts

hope youre doing ok
guess i better catch up with this thread to see where things went a bit awry

wherever you are take good care
and keep fighting the good fight

i hope thats here but understand if its not the best place for you right now
but i know youre needed so i hope you find the community you want

Reading message boards about "Lost" and whatnot. A man's got to have priorities.

Mostly

such a strange and timely coincidence took place. I mean, DFA not being able to mail a petition on this matter to me because of "porn" on some server at exactly the time when my petition matters most. I ALWAYS posted ALL DFA emails online, until yesterday.

Put the tinfoil hat down and step away from the keyboard.

It appears NSA data-trolling is ok with the first three posters. Is it okay with the rest of DU?

Is it okay for DHS to look through ALL democratic email for porn? If so, Republicans will win in November for sure!

So I signed the petition. This isn't about terrorism, & it isn't about porn. This is about a government that is abusing its' power.

Tammy

I bet the true blues at DU will beat the trolls today on this thread. Only one more vote for the OP and WE WIN!

credibility.

I am more likely to believe that a neocon got an account on the DFA server (which, by the way, is EASY, I have one on my local DFA server) and then uploaded some porn, then tipped off DHS.

That is, at least, credible and very, very possible.

Blaming everything on the NSA is just stupid, especially thinking they would take down just one DFA site out of thousands based on NSA info. Its just moronic.

If it's true that the reason for the confiscation was child porn, this is really an excellent question and probably leads to even more questions.

Mostly

On DFA website? Hmmmmm.....Ive never seen so much as a cleavage on that site before.

Death to trolls!

I was beginning to feel like ARM AND HAMMER: "What took you so long?" thanks for the vote.

I chose my name because I came to DU to help protect YOUR freedoms as Jefferson perceived them. This was a clear violation of YOUR civil liberties.

Step ONE is finding dissidents like us; STEP TWO is rounding us up, just like during the Third Reich.

are we having fun yet?

And stop spreading unsubstantiated allegations.

not post thread-killer comments at DU, right? Everyone has a right to bash DFA or DEAN if they want to at DU and plenty of OP's do both.

...perhaps you should disentangle these separate issues. I don't understand why you commingled them in the first place.

I get the info exactly one day late because of "porn?" it ALL seems a bit fishy.

I want to apologize to ANYONE who thinks I implied they might be a TROLL!

Perhaps all this NSA stuff is making me paranoid. I had to buy a new computer last week because my 3 year old lap-top suddenly died an untimly death. Maybe my tin-foil-hat is on too tight, maybe not.

we just have to take this shit from our government... I signed the petition and would sign a million more if it will help....

LOL!

Who exactly are these trolls? Who bashed Dean, what in the world are you talking about. I would gladly have signed the petition without you making things up. Add in a little character assasination on a fellow DU'er and I'm starting to dislike you.

Have you NEVER read ANY anti-Dean threads at DU? Read back for the "deleted" threads... and then quickly judge a fellow DUer who ONLY posts pro-Democratic OPs here. Be sure and judge me from one paranoid day after the BIG NEWS of yesterday. Does Homeland Security make you feel safe? Is it okay for them to lurk at a fledgling DFA site and then close them down? Should the DHS be hunting porn on Dem sites or terrorists?

But stop with the troll branding and personal attacks on people. The original dissenting poster here had a perfectly logical question and you branded him a troll and told him he was a freeper, in so many words. Your original assertion was off base and completely illogical. Yet you attcked someone for simply questioning your source. I don't like to see that kind of thing happen here at DU. While I don't like DHS, admire Dean, and probably agree with 98% of your ideology I won;t sit back and watch you make accusations against other DU members when quite clearly you were in the wrong on this particular issue.

DHS looking for pr0n? Completely ridiculous I agree. Waste of tax money, and manpower.

I bet THEY like seeing a brand new Alabama DFA site shut down and branded as a porn site. DFA is a BIG problem to Republican candidates in other states and we have TWO REPUKE Senators in Alabama who repeat EVERYTHING Bush says like it's God's law.

I did apologize, read back but keep in mind my worst critics were deleted.

they are ignoring the most important issue there is - electronic voting and election fraud.

until we take care of these problems, you can expect more wiretapping, more of the same of everything. you have to go to the root cause of the problem which is stolen elections. they'll keep stealing elections, they'll hold their majority, and we'll be dealing with another 2/4/6 years of the same BS, until organizations like DFA start to deal with this situation directly.

I've been to the national headquarters of DFA and talked to the head strategists. They said electronic voting is "not one of their main concerns right now." I don't know if these people are just short sighted, ignorant, or in denial. But it makes no sense to work on all these other issues, when the biggest issue is obviously election fraud.

I am only contributing to organizations who are focusing on the electronic voting problem. after that is dealt with, then we can talk about other issues.

:dem:

ALL democratic grass-roots activity is a good thing. I like TrueMajority a bit better. It's non-partisian with plenty of rank-and-file Republican support!

http://www.truemajority.org/

True Majority is somewhat better on election fraud. I have no problem with their petitions and such and I certainly don't want any of these groups to go away. I just think we need to get them to focus on the real problem.

but Diebold won't slow me down as I sign up more poor minority voters next week.

In my journal about a month ago I wrote a post called Horse Sense. They are very much doing stuff.

:kick:

:scared:

Chris Warshaw - DFA wrote on May 11, 2006 04:55 PM:

Re: Democracy for Alabama server

I just got a note from Darryl in Alabama who runs the Alabama for Democracy website. Apparently, the DHS pulled the plug on one of Alabama for Democracy's host's servers that included the AFD website among many others. It was not specifically targeting the AFD site.

There was a problem with "contraband" on some other website on the server that was prohibited. But nevertheless the AFD site was affected by the outage.

The website should be back online soon

From comments posted here:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/shadowblog/114735792072806834/

But by all means, contine attempting to martyr whatever the hell it is you're trying to martyr. By all means, please continue accusing everyone in this thread of being a troll. Way to get your point across. Whatever the hell that point is, given that your original assertion was nonsense.

where the link?

your link says this:

Was this a server owned and operated by your ISP? If so, another user could have had contraband files on it. If I can find my tin-foil hat... Ok... Just a minute. OK... *there*, comfy. It would be *easy* for an agent of the NSA, DHS, whoever, to open an account with your ISP, upload some contraband, and then sue for a warrant to confiscate the drives and everything they contain. Your files would go up the river as well, eventhough you had nothing to do with it. Hmm... sounds very Rovian, if you ask me.

That sounds like a huge amount of trouble to go to just to temporarily shut down the website of an inconsequential organisation out in the boondocks.

And I said nothing...

:dem:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

BY

Rev. Martin Niemöller (January 14, 1892 - March 6, 1984) was a antisemitic German Lutheran pastor who was an opponent of Adolf Hitler's interference in Church affairs.

So unless you're saying "First they came for the child pornographers" I'm not sure what your point is.

Because evidently it seems to irritate some people
:dem:

If you think they'll stop with them, you're most likely mistaken.

I hadn't seen the outcome. I'm relieved to learn that DFA is not under attack by DHS.

I checked that redirect page, that contains links to some 'interesting' sites, did a tracert on the org that put up the page.

Look up Performance Systems International Inc. and see what you find.

Nothing conclusive, but fishy for sure

They are based in Washington DC, too. Isn't that an odd home base for a tech company?

http://intelligence.visitorville.com/company.php?co=Performance+Systems+International+Inc.
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Is VisitorVille somehow associated with PSI? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

I just googled Performance Systems and followed the links. :)

That's the visitorville info page for PSI. VisitorVille is a company that collects websurfing data.

For instance, here is their page on Microsoft Italia:

http://intelligence.visitorville.com/company.php?co=Microsoft+Italia

This does not imply any relationship between VisitorVille and MS Italia. It is simply their info page for MS Italia.

It's amazing the stuff you learn on the internets!

DFA will survive on participation - on getting out and going to meet-ups and working. That's what it is based on.

Met some of the DFA folks last year when I canvassed for Kerry. Great folks.

I moved back to the city to hook up with them....unfortunately I lost my job and can't contribute anymore. x(

:kick:

I have never envied the power of a DU moderator. With power comes responsibility.

this is such obvious bullshit that it hurts to think about it.

So what can we do about it? Several anti-war sites got hacked with gay porn after the Iraq war started. When conservatives are supporting freedom, they always try to limit free speech and tend to go gay.