BIRD FLU...MAJOR HOAX....ALL FLU PANDEMICS MAJOR HOAX

Remember SARS...ALL THAT CRAP!

DRUG COMPANIES...GET YOUR STOCK UP...RUMSFELD/BUSH/CHENEY....SPREAD ..SICKNESS, TERROR, FAMINE..!

Anyone have some "SOUND SCIENCE" for BUSHIES FANTASIES? And...their PAID UNIVERSITY SHILLS that they've BOUGHT OFF...????

Give me PROOF..! BUSH cries WOLF and his BOUGHT OFF FAUX SCIENTISTS cry "BLOW THE HOUSE DOWN!"

But...sadly many University folks are so dependent on Government Grants that they just can't speak out for fear of being fired from their jobs or the "Tenure Committee" voting them out of a job.

When does being able to sustain one's life compare with "Toadism." I don't know? :shrug: Food on the Table or Principle...It's a rough call.

Are we to assume those people died from something else?

I've always thought this was way overblown, and haven't paid any attention to all the scare tactics, but when I say that to others, they ask about the people who have already died. Why would those places destroy thousands of birds for no reason?

human still have to contact it from birds, it has not spread from human to human yet.

...avian flu evolves to infect that a variant will evolve capable of easy transmission from human to human.

I wonder how long it took the 1918 variant to evolve into the global killer it became?

we have modern plumbing and antibiotics

...unlike 1918 when people lived primarily in rural areas. Our modern plumbing will only spread the disease faster, depending on how long the virus can live outside the human body.

Antibiotics are next to worthless for use against viruses, unless you get a secondary bacterial infection. The virus itself will cause a massive reaction of the human body's immune system that will cause the lungs to fill with liquid, basically causing the victim to drown...if they're lucky.

http://www.fumento.com/disease/flu2005.html

<snip>Panicky people forget that in 1918 antibiotics and antibacterial vaccines that could prevent the deaths caused by secondary infections were still decades away. Panic-purveyors want you to think it doesn't matter. In "The Next Pandemic," her oh-so-spooky Foreign Affairs article this summer, Laurie Garrett declares that while "most strains of the flu do not kill people directly" the Spanish flu "was a direct killer," adding, "Had antibiotics existed, they may not have been much help." She couldn't be more wrong. "Even in 1918, there was a window of opportunity so that if they had had drugs they could have made a major difference," says one of the nation's top virologists, Dr. Frederick G. Hayden of the University of Virginia. "It would have been susceptible to both antibiotics and antivirals." John Barry, in his landmark 2004 Spanish flu book, The Great Influenza, states that without modern drugs "even in the face of this pandemic, doctors could help. They could save lives. If they were good enough, if they had the right resources, if they had the right help, if they had time."

True, no retelling of those horrible days is without anecdotes of apparently healthy young people simply dropping dead, such as the man who boarded the trolley car feeling fine only to leave in the company of the grim reaper. But even these probably didn't die from a direct attack of the virus, writes Barry. Rather, "victims' lungs were being ripped apart . . . from the attack of the immune system on the virus."

That explains in great part why an extraordinary number of young people died – they have stronger immune systems. Another apparent reason is that older people had previously been exposed to related strains and acquired immunity, which also explains why isolated populations of aboriginals were slammed the hardest and often enough wiped out. Further, the virus had incubated where an extremely high number of victims were packed together – namely, young soldiers at the Western Front or en route. There was no black magic about Spanish flu that caused it to pick on the young, as we're often led to believe.

What is more, some of the victims who suddenly dropped dead clearly died of pneumonia caused by secondary bacterial infections. Barry explains: "Often influenza victims seemed to recover, even returned to work, then suddenly collapsed again with bacterial pneumonia." In any case, most people died in the usual fashion of subsequent flu epidemics and pandemics. "Autopsy records from New York City found that most of the deaths occurred at the end of the first week and beginning of the second," the University of Virginia's Hayden told me.

Researchers at Stanford have assembled a website that quotes from the medical journals of the time. The principal danger of an influenza infection was its tendency to progress into the often fatal bacterial infection of pneumonia, according to the British Medical Journal of July 13, 1918. Sick soldiers at Ft. Lewis, Washington, had sputum and other samples taken and grown in the lab. Commonly found bacteria, according to the April 12, 1919, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, were pneumococcus, streptococcus, staphylococcus, and Bacillus influenzae (today called haemophilus influenzae).

Comments the Stanford site, "It was this tendency for secondary complications that made this influenza infection so deadly." Writes Barry, "Most deaths almost certainly did come from secondary bacterial infections." In fact, the bacterial infections were so common that even years after the pandemic, many researchers believed the causative agent was bacterial and not viral.

...guessing the events of 1918-1919.

What they don't want to tell you, or are conveniently overlooking, is that first-responders were being infected at a pretty rapid rate which would have made it difficult to administer antibiotics to those who were either not ill, or just getting over the primary infection.

Additionally, transport of medical goods would deteriorate rapidly, making the delivery of necessary antibiotics problematical at best. Compounding that problem is the fact that hosptitals are not stockpiling antibiotics...those medicines would run out very quickly in the opening stages of a pandemic.

John Barry listed quite a few "ifs" in his excellent book, and they're not being addressed today in any way shape or form.

forgive me but I believe when reading about the spread of cholera that the use of chamber
pots provided ideal bacteria cultures that allowed the disease to spread rapidly among
households, how do you feel that modern plumbing would spread the avian flu?

...modern plumbing systems?

Besides, once avian flu reaches a variant that easily transmits from human to human, the virus will spread primarily through the air and from surfaces on which it lands. It all comes down to how long you can stay in-doors while the virus spreads outside. Can you stock up enough food and water to make it through the crisis? Will utilities and other necessities continue to function?

The 1918-1919 Pandemic took 12 to 18 months to eventually evolve to a variant that was no longer infectious to humans. Not a very pleasant thought is it?

with you. Have heard way to many scientist talk about this. We are due...it's been almost 100 years.

an "Armageddonist? :shrug: I have to believe as a "DU'er" that you really
belive this...but don't you have "questions?" :shrug:

and I got answers that I accept. I'm all for conspiracy but IMO this is not it. Will it be a pandemic? No one knows. All depends on whether it morphs into something else that can be passed from human to human. IF this was a * propaganda deal they would have had us ALL immunized already. The BIG phama are saying they WON'T have a vaccine for us.

No one made up the influenza pandemic in 1918. That pandemic is the real reason WWI was stopped. It killed people on every continent.

I doubt if we will have such a large pandemic ever again. The advancements in technology that we have today should dramatically change the outcome.

I know you must be incredibly suspicious of the President and all his men, but I highly doubt if they would perpetrate a pandemic. If anything, it would make them look like shit. Look at what happened in Katrina, that could happen to a lot of people in America.

I also understand that people will always be cautious of predicting a pandemic because of the "Swine Flu." We were probably better off then than we are now. Vaccine manufacturers have gone out of the business. You may remember the vaccine shortage a few years ago. That was caused by a flawed shipment of vaccine from another country.

In a pandemic it is highly likely that other countries will hoard any vaccine they produce, leaving our country up shit creek without a paddle.

This whole threat could go away quickly and not reappear for years, or the virus could mutate into a form which could transmit by human to human contact.

The preliminary analysis of the virus indicates it will not spread easily until it starts targeting receptors in the lung. This discovery made me personally breath a sigh of relief, but it may only be a matter of time before this has an impact you simply won't be able to ignore.

I wouldn't trust this administration farther than I could throw them, so I look at the World Health Organization's website to find out the latest information about Avian Influenza.

here:
http://who.int/en/

I think the chances of a ww pandemic are GREATER than in 1918. With what we are doing to the ecosystem we will always see viruses. People die of flus and viruses all the time. People are worldwide today like never before. IF this does mutate from human to human it could potentially be ww in ONE DAY

Counter" drugs....

I posted my Grandma lost a dear child in that Flue Epidemic and she grieved for the rest of her life over it. I'm not being insensitive...just looking at how the Bushies PUMP....:shrug:

My post was inflammatory but SO ARE THE BUSHIES scaring folks to death and meds constantly. :shrug: that's what I was trying to point out...

But that doesn't mean there is NO threat from certain diseases. They are capitalizing on a REAL potential threat and using it toward their nefarious ends.

earth is also due for a collision with meterorite, and an 'natural' ice age, according to many professors. A couple years ago, the pigmedia actually promoted the fear from a meterite hitting old mother earth (but everyone only thought 'hey, that's kinda interesting')....you can tell there's nothing to fear from any natural bf threat from the way the pigmedia says there is a danger (which means the go pig is planning a biological assault upon civilization, which the pigmedia will then blow out of proportion) the best thing to do is ignore the lying liars and work for democracy

that's all.

displaced by manipulating another THREAT like Weapons of Mass Distruction except that like all the BUSHBOTS do ...it's profit for SOMEONE...and it isn't the American People like you and I here...usually a Corporate Interest and in this case...BIG PHARMA...(Which wasn't always the ogre it's become recently) Since Wall Street began to "run them" in the '90's and "Stock Price" for the "Day Traders" became the determinant over "integrity, testing and FDA Compliance with REAL laws" before they were trashed in the late 90's and now the Bush years. :-(

...think it's possible to think about more than one thing at a time?

They had been on the car for a couple years and been wearing really well. So consequently still had three quarters of the tread left. I started busting up when she asked where the expiration was on tire so we could be sure they were still okay to use.

Should we be afraid?

heh heh heh

Here comes a RED ALERT!

Or maybe some fire ants?

Why not read about H5N1 a little before "shouting" this blather?

H5N1 might not mutate into a human-human bug but if it does, it's going to be really ugly. Residing between panic and ignorance is quite a bit of middle ground. As in any situation, staying calm, informed and prepared is, IMO, the best way to handle this.

I'm sure there were people in 1917 saying the same thing you are...

And the SOUND SCIENCE says don't panic but be aware of the virus and how it travels.

Or you can put on your fuckin' tin foil hat, and take the typical USA-centric view that the world revolves around you and everything is a nefarious Bush plot.

What a fucking ridiculous post.

:puke:

Sid

You don't see the connection between spreading PANIC so that Rumsfeld's Stock and the rest in Drug Immunization CABAL can make money?

:eyes:

Hey...just so you know...come from a family that's worked for major drug companies/pharma and been involved in "Epidemiology and Public Health" at Yale University and other places....

Not "clueless, here." I'm always open to "all scientific though" but gotta get out here on DU with my own views. Which is what an "Open Forum" is about...isn't it? :shrug:

Did I say anywhere that you should panic? Did I say that the Bird Flu is out to GET ME? Is there something wrong with the CAPS LOCK key on you KEYBOARD?

I don't care where you're family has worked. You're ignorance on this topic is astounding.

:grr:

Sid

unlike many who "hit and run" I do read. And...I stand by what I said. How many other cities were closed down over SARS that we were told in "Panic" would be another "Pandemic" (although they weren't sophisticated enough at that time in their propaganda to get the terms correctly).

You are still posting here...so I assume you didn't succumb...and while there will always be "EPIDEMICS" that's very different from "PANDEMICS."

And since then how many outbreaks of SARS have you heard about since then?

I wasn't trying to "pull rank" as to where I worked or those in my family had worked or their credentials...I was posting what "I knew" from my little scientific corner of the world.

If you took offense...or felt what I said was faulty then that's okay. Give me some "Stats" to back up a PANDEMIC of SARS and why I should be so afraid of BIRD FLU.

I didn't post "Stats" in my OP because I know from long experience that it's kind of a "turn off" for folks here trying to read many posts and fly through. And, I'm not asking you to comply with posting your on statistics about SARS...just trying to get you to understand WHY I posted...and that I felt I had to say SOMETHING because it was bugging me about the HYPE...

Peace...to you!

oh, pardon me, i am so sorry for CAP KEYS GEtting stuCK occasionally.

but, my sarcastic and cynical point is that the scientists have already stated that they are, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, working on CREATING the mutation that jumps from birds to humans.

now. given what this administration has ALREADY done, you don't think that they will USE IT when they feel it would benefit them in any way? they have ALREADY CAUSED THE DEATHS OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

YOU are the one that has their head firmly stuck .... in the sand. talk about astounding ignorance....

our backgrounds, our experience, our educations, are what makes du such a valuable resource. calling others ignorant is just projection. no matter how smart you may think you are, trust me, there are other du'ers that can put you to shame.

indignant and testy replies will cause you to lose what little credibility you have. i have, on ocassion, succumbed to doing just that, and usually regretted it the second AFTER i hit post.

:shrug:

9% of the 361 people who got it died during the 4 month outbreak.

What would have happened if SARS had hit an American city, where people don't have health care so don't go to the doctor unless they really need to?

Sid

Sid

:eyes:

SARS got its name because no one knew what it was. It took awhile to figure out what the pathogen was (a corona virus) and why (and how) it spread the wierd way it did.

Fear of the unknown tends to frighten people (even public health professionals) a whole lot more than rational expectations and planning for sets of scenarios that we have knowledge bases about.

Here is the gentleman's post.

"33 deaths in Toronto...
9% of the 361 people who got it died during the 4 month outbreak.

What would have happened if SARS had hit an American city, where people don't have health care so don't go to the doctor unless they really need to?

Sid

8 Children never got over the death of Clyde in that epidemic. She didn realize that 7 of her children survived and made them "pay for that" the rest of their lives. It's sad how "bitterness" and "grief" can survive so long and hurt the lives of everyone else because of One Death.

But that child might have been "so special to her" she just couldn't recover.

:shrug:

Amazing how deadly these hoaxes can be, isn't it??

If bird flu is threat now it has always been a threat..nothing really had changed..they where just once again hyping what they could to keep Bush boys numbers up and line there pockets.

right?

or unwillingness to listen to scientists and epidemiologists from the international community who've been on top of this for closing in on 10 years now.

Run some pub med searches, or go the the WHO site. Or any number of other countries' public health authorities. Get down & dirty in the facts, as opposed to letting yourself run on emotion- what looks nefarious to you is coincidence at best.

American exceptionalism at work again.

You believe the Globalists who've taken over to give you the truth about anything? You believe that the Corporatists haven't taken hold of our Scientific Community?

And you diss an "old school" person who remembers when Scientists weren't "BOUGHT OFF" back to Carter? And even Clinton didn't allow the travesties we see here today in the scientific community.

I fear for when the last folks in their 50's and 60's who are still Heads of Departments at Major and Minor Universities have to retire. What's behind them is quite "scary" after the BushBot years. :shrug:

...understand major corporate owners/execs being globalists, and by extension, their respective political leaders, but doctors and scientists?

I'm sorry, but you've allowed yourself to get so wrapped up in your hatred of the NeoCons that you've lost the ability to think rationally. IMHO, you need to back up and take a few deep breaths.

and awe gee'
it's possible that 911 was staged from the new jersey office of the DIA (a rogue office) and cost over a $ billion dollars...
bush was pre selected to win the fake 2k election, using another $billion warchest - several media heads later met to prep the mass media coverage of the 911 'event'...so insane was the plot it's almost impossible to believe it, which was the 'ace' in the hole all the time....
bird flu might or might not be a bushevik plot. otoh there's no doubt that if busheviks gets away with what they've done, corruption will be so bad nothing, not even a pandemic, or news of it, will make any ddifference in the end. the busheviks lose by winning, and win by losing. either way, it's ok....
-------------------
Defense Spending
Experts once argued whether Americans would finally grasp the enormity of the
military budget when spending reached $100 billion. Now $416 billion, and
candidates still arguing over who will spend the most, it would appear people still
haven't grasped a budget beyond comprehension.
Here's how political leaders are
spending the discretionary budget.
World's Largest
Military Budgets:
($U.S. Billions)
United States 416.0
Russia* 65.0
China* 47.0
Japan 42.6
U.K. 38.4
France 29.5
Germany 24.9
Saudi Arabia 21.3
Italy 19.4
India 15.6
South Korea 14.1
Brazil* 10.7
Taiwan* 10.7
Israel 10.6
Spain 8.4
Australia 7.6
Canada 7.6
Netherlands 6.6
Turkey 5.8
Mexico 5.9
Kuwait* 3.9
Ukraine 5.0
Iran 4.8
Singapore 4.8
Sweden 4.5
Egypt* 4.4
Norway 3.8
Greece 3.5
Poland 3.5
Argentina* 3.3
U.A.E.* 3.1
Colombia* 2.9
Belgium 2.7
Pakistan* 2.6
Denmark 2.4
Vietnam 2.4
North Korea 2.1
Czech Republic 1.6
Iraq 1.4
Philippines 1.4
Portugal 1.3
Libya 1.2
Hungary 1.1
Syria 1.0
Cuba 0.8
Sudan 0.6
Yugoslavia 0.7
Luxembourg 0.2
Source: www.cdi.org.

I'd like to hear your perspective about this and what you've seen.

I must say..that I really haven't addressed the "Neo-Cons" on this thread or OP because they haven't (to my knowledge) ever presented credentials in Biology, Chemistry, MicroBiology, BioChemistry, Organic Chemistry, Anatomy...etc.

I think the "Neo-Cons" got their jobs in the Think Tanks through "family connections." If they were Scientists they might have been able to get jobs elsewhere...given their age and the times they lived in when US was crying for scientists...:shrug:

...if you're stating that avian flu is a plot hatched by the Bush people, guess what? The Bush people ARE the NeoCons! That means you HAVE been addressing the NeoCons in this thread.

Your comments fly in the face of the research conducted by the international community of doctors and scientists that have been tracking avian flu since it first surfaced in 1997 in Hong Kong. Are you telling me that those people are also tied in with Bush avian flu hoax? How about WHO and CDC? Are they all part of the plot, too?

Give me a break.

Time in an evolutionary sense has more to do with opportunity- and as H5N1 spreads, the opportunities (probabilities) for mutation or reassortment- and a variant "escaping" increase exponentially. It ain't a straight line graph.

And again- you're looking through the lens of Americanism- some of which I agree with (but to the extent I do, that's limited largely to America). What we have in this case- as in any case where natural laws apply, is process of nature that even boogeymen like Rumsfeld et al have no control over.

The rest of the world isn't so blindly tainted by the corporatists- in fact, many NGO partners who work with this stuff on a daily basis are about as anti-corporate as you can get.

I worked at EPH at Yale.. It was a fight then for Grants from Government where it was a "question" of "who" would control your research. And with professors making very little money ...it sort of evolved into a "game" much like the relationship between the "Lobbyists" and those who represent us on "THE HILL" in DC.

Believe me or not. I'm only relating what I saw which you may or might not believe. It's my view...and I posted it. I know there are others who might differ....but I stand by what I say and ready to defend? Just as you are.

So...handshake...for agreeing to "disagree."

:toast:

I often agree your takes- but I think you're way off on this one....

Maybe since then...THOUSANDS have DIED..... but it's masked by the deaths in Iraq? :shrug:

Here:

Confirmed Human Deaths from Bird Flu Worldwide Reach 80
Nearly $2 billion pledged at Beijing meeting for international campaign


A young bird flu patient is monitored in a Chinese hospital, January 13, 2006. (©AP/WWP)

By Charlene Porter
Washington File Staff Writer

Washington – Confirmation of the death of a Chinese poultry worker due to avian influenza January 19 pushes the world total of human fatalities from that disease to 80, just as international donors committed almost $2 billion to the worldwide campaign to fight the disease and prevent a human flu pandemic.

A World Health Organization (WHO) announcement confirms the findings of Chinese health officials that a 35-year-old woman who had been working at culling infected birds died January 11, eight days after the appearance of her first symptoms.

The news comes the day after the end of an international pledging conference on avian and pandemic influenza at which nations committed to providing $1.9 billion to resource-poor nations that are combating or vulnerable to bird flu. (See related article.)

Just a week earlier, the United Nations’ coordinator for avian and human influenza, David Nabarro, had predicted a pledge total in the range of $1.2 billion to $1.4 billion.

Nabarro called the outcome of the January 17-18 Beijing meeting, “quite extraordinary,” according to the U.N. News Center.

“What we’ve seen today is that the world really does care and wants to respond effectively to the threat of avian influenza and a possible human pandemic,” he said.

The disease started more than two years ago in Southeast Asia and has become the greatest outbreak of its kind with the appearance of the highly pathogenic avian influenza strain in 13 nations from Asia to Europe.

So far, almost 150 humans also have been afflicted with the disease, which had infected humans only rarely before the outbreak began in December 2003. In virtually all cases, people have acquired the disease after contact with sick birds.

Health officials warn that if the disease becomes contagious among humans and is passed through coughing or sneezing, a global pandemic influenza could emerge with the possibility for millions of deaths and widespread social and economic upheaval.

DONORS’ MEETING

The United States offered a $334 million pledge at the Beijing conference, the largest amount committed by any single nation. That figure includes $54 million originally earmarked in 2005, and another $280 million approved in a 2006 budget bill.

“Resources will be used to assist countries with national preparedness plans,” said a statement from the White House, “to improve surveillance and response systems, to train local rapid-response teams and medical personnel, and to support public awareness campaigns to limit practices that contribute to the spread of the avian influenza virus.”

The European Union and its member nations are putting more than $250 million into an international fund that will be distributed as grants, loans and technical assistance.

“The investments we make now, to prevent and control further spread of the virus, are investments in long-term development,” said Paul Wolfowitz, president of the World Bank, a co-sponsor of the Beijing meeting.

“They will help countries better protect themselves against future threats of pandemic,” he added, “and prevent the unraveling of their hard-won economic and social gains.”

The director-general of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations echoed that message when he warned the conference about the potential entrenchment of avian influenza in the Black Sea, Caucasus and Near East regions.

David Harcharik said the movement of people, goods and migratory birds could easily transport the virus into Africa, which so far has remained unaffected.

“If it were to become rooted in the African countryside,” Harcharik said, “the consequences for a continent already devastated by hunger and poverty could be truly catastrophic.”

“Vigilance, surveillance and information sharing are paramount,” said Dr. Lee Jong-wook, WHO director-general, in his address to the pledging conference, citing action in Turkey as an example of a methodical response.

Since the disease was confirmed in Turkey in early January, health officials have given tissue samples from patients to international laboratories. This gives researchers a chance to learn more about the virus, knowledge that may help prevent a pandemic.

For additional information on the disease and effort to combat it, see Bird Flu (Avian Influenza).http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:kljVovpoWU0J:usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2006/Jan/19-86928.html+Worldwide+Deaths+due+to+Avian+Flu&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Created: 19 Jan 2006 Updated: 19 Jan 2006

still is not mutated to human to human transmission.

But the real point is that the administration is poised for the next disaster to declare martial law, no matter what it is. They are hyping bird flu because they can.

"watched" in years past...but the Bushies have pushed it to "Pandemic" ALARM...ALARM...!!! just to compensate for their inability to post "Color Coded Terraist" stuff" lately.

When the human "jump" occurs then we should wait out a few years to see the "transmission" in numbers that are alarming.

(Remember...I worked on a Medical Journal at "Epidemiology and Public Health at Yale University) Not...flounting some credentials here...and it was awhile back that I worked there...but my HEALTHY SKEPTICISM kind of makes me have to post "RED ALERT!" CAUTION....CAUTION....CAUTION....

:shrug: I'm only a lowly poster like the rest of us here. You can listen or ignore. I just have to be a "little bird" who sounds an alarm...whether you listen or not...just my 2 Cents....:-(

...now it's located in more than 40 countries causing the loss of billions of dollars to the poultry industry. Additionally, the virus has evolved more than 140 variants to include those that have infected and killed various mammals like jungle cats.

The WHO and the CDC has been following this closely for several years...are they also part of the "hoax" you're posting about?

is "self serving" or "alarmist" re "Bird Flu?" How do you feel any other administration would have handled this? Would CNN devote hours daily to the BIRD FLUE THREAT.... Would we be in a PANIC...worrying who could "Produce the Vaccines?" Would we whip everyone up into a FRENZY? What's accomplished by this?

Yes...the real Panic is that our AGRIBUSINESS IN THE SOUTH would be DECIMATED given that we farm our animals in "penned" farms where they are literally captives to drugs and feed and only live to produce for the FAST FOOD Enterprises....but still...it's all about BUSINESS...isn't it? And, keeping that TERRA ALERT going...:shrug:

I suppose one could belive they are just so concerned about BIRD FLU that it's more important than Hurricanes or Water Shortages or Preparations for all other Disasters that are of a more "immediate threat." Gas and Oil shortages...Bubbles in Stock Market, Deficits as far as the eyes of Americans can see...all that "OTHER STUFF."

...than the NeoCons could ever make you.

As far as the avian flu is concerned, I'll keep an eye on what WHO and CDC are saying about it. Unlike some people in this thread, I don't pay any attention to what the NeoCons are saying about "terra" or anything else.

"a few years" after human-human mutation to investigate if it's a problem??

How did your experience lead you to this proposed course of action? If you have knowledge of epidemiology, you understand that we have no resittance to an H5 virus...and H5N1 has a much higher mortality rate than any "regular" flu.

How is it that you're so unconcerned that you're willing to wait a few years after a H-H mutation before you think it even bears looking at?

Even though they didn't have modern medicine and antibiotics.

With the heads up they have, it is hard to believe this could come to anything that could justify martial law.

Do you know who markets TAMIFLU?

ROCHE LABORATORIES.

Do you know who bought the patent for TAMIFLU from ROCHE LABORATORIES in 1996?

GILEAD SCIENCES INC.

Do you know who was the then president of GILEAD SCIENCES INC. and remains a major shareholder?

DONALD RUMSFELD, the present Secretary of Defense of the USA.

Do you know that the base of TAMIFLU is crushed aniseed?

Do you know who controls 90% of the world's production of this tree?
ROCHE.

Do you know that sales of TAMIFLU were over $254 million in 2004 and more than $1000 million in 2005?

Do you know how many more millions ROCHE can earn in the coming months if the business of fear continues?

a human to human transmissable disease yet. All things are possible, it is true, and watching the Discovery or History channel will inform the viewer of many potentially devastating disasters-in-waiting (tsunami's, earthquakes, meteor hits, etc).

Could this particularly virulent strain (there are hundreds) of avian flu mutate into a human pandemic? It is theoretically possible but there is no actual evidence to this point to indicate that such a thing will ever happen.

Limited human to human transmission has been seen.

Where we're probably at is WHO's Phase 4:

Small cluster(s) with limited human-to-human transmission but spread is highly localised, suggesting that the virus is not well adapted to humans.

See pg. 16 of the latest UK INFLUENZA PANDEMIC CONTINGENCY PLAN for the sequence:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/19_10_05_bird_flu.pdf

See also the WHO's timeline (they've been very conservative about reporting possible- or maybe probably H2H transmission. Scientists tend to be that way).

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/timeline.pdf

The archive of the WHO's CSR's (they're calling ESR's now) describe the other incidents of suspected H2H in more detail. You can look those up and decide for yourself about what conclusions warranted from the facts.

Be afraid. The flu by itself is probably nothing. But these people are very evil. A man-made pandemic like the 1918 flu would:
1. Solve the SS problem. Kill off all the old people.
2. They are also working on germs that attack specific ethinic groups. Good-by to any ethnic problems these creeps seem to have.
3. One way to win the "war on terror" - get rid of all the Muslims.
4. Get rid of half the world population and solve the Peak Oil problem.

I would not put it past these people presently running our gov't to do a lot of damage to a lot of people to stay in power.

It killed more than 50 million people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu

While it makes no sense to panic over bird flu (or any other epidemic), it also makes no sense to pretend it doesn't exist. There was an epidemic of a much milder "Asian" flu in 1968, and I, along with pretty much everybody in my dorm, got it -- and if that's an example of a "mild" flu, I'd sure hate to experience the bad kind. It seems to me that it would be very foolish to write off bird flu as just a ploy to scare people. It needs to be watched. Maybe it'll fail to mutate and will just go away, like SARS.

Or maybe it won't.

it is the original Spanish Flu virus, replicated and soon-to-be released from labs:

www.legitgov.org

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features/health/ny-hsflu0506,0,1970728.story

...to create the avian flu disease back in 1997?

Just amazing. No, really.

And how did Herr Busch get all of those doctors in all of those other countries to talk about the possibility of an avian flu pandemic?

That's amazing, too. Absolutely amazing.

...the Swine Flu scare in Sweden during the late '70's...it was going to be worse than the Spanish Flu pandemic on 1918. :eyes:

I'm very skeptical of this scare.

Cheers

...1918 Pandemic? Was it the Swedish press? Was it anyone with any knowledge of infectious diseases?

I was in the U. S. military when swine flu came around, and nobody said anything to us about it being worse than the 1918 pandemic. In fact, the vaccine caused more problems than the swine flu itself.

Now who's rolling their eyes?

interesting how that all came to pass.

When people cite that to me, I usually say - hey, if your smoke detector goes off once or twice when it's just you cooking- does that mean it's responsible to just unhook it?

It was on all of the major European newscasts. I remember listening to Radio Free Europe, the radio shows out of Luxembourg, the Swedish radio, Danish radio and the BBC. I vaguely remember reading articles in the papers and magazines. I assume that the newscasters from these various places are just as qualified in infectious diseases as our newscasters are here.

Sorry, I don't know what the military told people or what was reported on the news here, but I don't doubt that is what you were told.

Cheers

reminder. Without the memories of us "Oldie DU'ers" where would these kids ever get their info? I think it was our purpose in life to live long enough to be on DU and that we could talk to folks much younger than us and not be trashed for what we believe and what we know as WISDOM...

Whatever....

Good post!

Age certainly has its benefits!

Happy Mother's Day! :hug:

I'm sorry but you are. The evolution of viruses, especially avian influenza A is not a hoax. I know because I have studied it and the scientific facts are not fabrications.

You are correct, however, about the government using a possible pandemic as a scare tactic against the people.

what most in the Scientific Community would say takes the time to "jump" from "Avian" to human population?

Would you agree that CNN/Wolf Blitzer seem to be hyping this beyond what's rational and reasonable for Scientific discovery and measured reasearch?

Would you agree that "PANIC" from the Bushies is more hype for the Pharma Community which seems "these days" to be run by "Stock Day Traders?"

I'm probably older than you ..and have seen some bad history...but respect your opinion in that you are questioning. I'm just trying to provide what I know of the history..and glad to hear from what you say...

First of all, viruses like influenza A (all species) have certain mutation patterns that we've studied and that's how we come up with predictions and timelines. There are recent changes we've seen in this particular avian influenza A (H5N1) since it was identified years ago that indicate a pandemic within the next several years is possible.

So no, I don't agree the Bushies have accelerated the timetable beyond what would naturally occur. The virus is following its own timetable; it's evolving and trying to survive.

Second, the problem with getting the proper information to the public without scaring them is twofold. Most people do not have the background to understand basic viral replication so providing them with epidimiological data is pointless, and then the media tries to dumb it down and only succeeds in giving inaccuracies that scare people. Of course they like to sensationalize, and they do it well.

Third, everything our government does is pro-corporation and designed to put more money in the pockets of those who already have it. If they can get people to panic and buy Tamiflu by scaring us about avian flu, they will. Nevermind it probably won't work (Tamiflu). The plan they've put forward is a joke, if a pandemic happens, we're all on our own.

Viruses are living creatures and were on this planet long before us. I know what I know about H5N1, and it's not a hoax.







:hi:

to this thread.

is the Hoax" in my post. However, I still believe that constantly drumbeating every time a bird dies somewhere on the globe and magnifying it into something (virus) that scientists are not yet in agreement would able to "jump" from bird to human, and if it did, that it would turn into a pandemic (or perhaps just be a another form of a mutaded flu we are used to coping with)is a question. From what I've read it seems that what might be a "pandemic" for bird farms would not necessarily be a "pandemic" for humans even if the virus mutates and makes the jump. This could take awhile more than needs to be broadcast all day in segments on CNN/MSNBC.

In any case we seem to agree ...except on the subject line of my post...I would think? :shrug:

http://www.fumento.com/disease/flu2005.html

"The indication is that we will see a return of the 1918 flu virus that is the most virulent form of flu," warns America's top health official. "In 1918, half a million people died. The projections are that this virus will kill one million Americans . . . "

A quotation ripped from today's papers about an impending "bird flu" pandemic? No, the year was 1976 and the prediction of a deadly "swine flu" overshot the mark by 999,999 deaths (although dozens did die from the vaccine campaign). That's something to remember amid the current alarms. Another is that we've been here before with the identical virus over which the feathers are now flying, avian influenza type H5N1, which first hit poultry flocks in 1997. "Race to Prevent World Epidemic of Lethal 'Bird Flu,'" and "Hong Kong 'Bird Flu' Could be the Next Big Outbreak," blared the headlines then.

The world death toll from that "wave"? Six. And let's not forget the outbreak of SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) two years ago, which led to 750 stories in the New York Times and Washington Post – one per death worldwide, as it turned out. The 71 U.S. cases of SARS, which resulted in zero deaths, did not "Overwhelm U.S. Health System," as CNN had predicted.

None of which is to say there won't be another flu pandemic. There were three in the last century, after all. But that gives us absolutely no idea when the next will come, nor whether it will be any relative of H5N1, nor what its impact will be. Two of those 20th-century pandemics weren't particularly severe, while the other was catastrophic. (Pandemic, by the way, does not mean "deadly epidemic" – it means "worldwide epidemic.")

What we can say with confidence is that there is never such a thing as helpful hysteria. And the line between informing the public and starting a panic is being crossed every day now by politicians, public health officials, and journalists.

media reports...even back then...

Thanks for that "catch!"

Haven't you seen men stuffing the live birds into sacks and killing them?

I do not fear anything that is being used to scare the world.

Overpopulation is what will kill us not the birds.

It's like flies to shit. There's also a generous helping of CYA in that exploitation.

The potential for the avian flu to become a pandemic is, unfortunately, quite real. I say again, potential; there are no guarantees that it will, likewise, there can be no guarantees that it will not. Should the H5N1 strain mutate effectively to enable human-to-human transmission, we would be no safer than we were in 1918, for all the talk about improvements in medicine and pharmacology. Why? Factor in the flu-drug resistance, like the problems with Tamiflu, and the rise in antibiotic-resistant bacteria in the past several years, and the speed of travel today. I do not panic, nor do I seek to spread panic. I do not spread fear, I don't believe what BushCo or the Corporate Media (I refuse to call them "Mainstream", ever) are bellowing about (in fact, I resolutely refuse to pay attention to hype in all forms) and I'm not sleeping on a stash of canned tuna while wrapped in duct tape and plastic sheeting, either. I do my own research, and I merely offer information which may prove useful. Remember, we're on our own, as the lack of response to Katrina made all too clear. BushCo wouldn't and couldn't protect us from an out of control truck, much less a pandemic.

If Chimpy were the only one yammering about this while throwing feces at Americans, I'd say "Bah, Humbug" with all the other doubters. But he's not...the EU takes this more seriously, governments elsewhere and the WHO take this more seriously, than do we.

All of this may never happen; and I'd be among the happiest to be thought foolish and gullible in that event. So I won't rely on our useless present Federal government, and I'll take rational, considered measures to prepare myself for the possibility, while ignoring any and all pronouncements by BushCo.

You asked for scientific information; here's a bit of science I gleaned from the UK publication, The Guardian (emphasis mine):



Other informative links:
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.213996080&par=0
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=31362
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article317481.ece

point out in my post. The Bushies have never found a FEAR they didn't want to "HYPE or EXPLOIT." And let the "buyer and reader" beware.

My post might have sounded inflammatory but Jeeze...look at what we are dealing with. We need to get a GRIP! CNN's HYPE is just TOO OBVIOUS...and anyone with a scientific background Pre-Bushco and their Clones for "THEIR VIEW" of what constitutes "Sound Science" has to step back...and realize what they know as HYPE...HYPE....HYPE.

That's what I was saying....And..."POTENTIAL" as from your linked article means just that! "Potential" is something to be concerned about and to work to deal with "down the road."

CNN and Wolf and BUSH BOTS say IMMEDIATE, IMMINENT DANGER! CODE RED ...ALL DIVE FOR COVER...

That's just not the kind of scientific rationality I was taught growing up where Science wasn't HYSTERIA to be foisted upon a population to MANIPULATE THEM!

:shrug:

Your OP sounded like too many here at DU where the poster is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's all well and good to doubt anything and everything that comes out of Bush's mouth. Hell, I do. BUT...when he didn't start a story, and others around the world give it credence, then it behooves us to sit up, take notice, do our own research and then decide for ourselves, not dismiss it out of hand as merely hype, distraction, or conspiracy.

That's all I'm sayin', and what I continue to say every time the naysayers on bird flu take flight. :)

notice. Until then, they're trying to cover for the bad Rove press that's about to explode.

If it doesn't spread and massacre in 3rd world countries first, it sure as hell won't here or in europe, either.

These guys will stop at nothing to gain mind control of the masses via fear.

Sorry, but in my case, no dice. :grr:

First they scare the shit out of people with Bird Flu,
then they build detention camps all over the country,
now gradual militarization of our borders?

(No, I will not remove my hat!)

:shrug:

microbiology out of the OLD TESTAMENT?

Is GLOBAL WARMING another HOAX being perpetuated by PAID UNIVERSITY SHILLS who work for RUMSFELD?

have adverse effects on one's credibility. The Bird flu is real and can evolve (cause god said it can) and global warming and evolution are false (cause god said it was). It is easier to figure out what might be shady science from who benefits and who don't rather than have do any real research.

There I was thinking alchemy was a lost study, silly me :shrug:

There is a difference between over hype and outright hoax.

Have they been hyped? Of course.

But claiming that "all flu pandemics" are hoaxes is simply wrong. It's crazy talk.