We must stop buying the right's spin on Christians

Christianity has been the driving force behind virtually every progressive movement in this country's history. Slaves were freed by Christians acting on their sincere belief that the Bible compelled them to free slaves. Child labor was ended in this country by progressives who felt the Bible compelled them to end it. The Civil Rights movement would never have gotten off the ground without the black church which not only provided the moral underpinnings and generals but the foot soldiers and the headquarters. The anti VietNam war movement was staffed in on small part by thousands of priests and ministers who felt Jesus compelled them to end that war. Christianity isn't the provence of the right. Jesus isn't some homophobic racist who came to earth to bring us supply side tax cuts. The Holy Spirt didn't compell Aaron McKinney to crucify Matthew Sheppard. God didn't tell Bush to invade Iraq and charge the bill to the grand kids.

So why do we buy into this crap?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1187564

"in His name."

His message was threefold: Tolerance, compassion, and charity.

None of which the "hijackers" of His name practice.

Redstone

probably not surprised.

The Pharisee and Hypocrites are no different than in his day; the business of religion hasn't changed just because God showed up. If Jesus were to return today, I firmly believe, Fallwell, Dobson and Robertson would gather their flocks and crucify him on the Statue of Liberty.

(and so do I).

Jesus Christ (1940)

Jesus Christ was a man that traveled through this land;
A carpenter, true and brave;
Said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor",
So they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand;
Carpenter true and brave;
And a dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

The people of the land took Jesus by the hand,
They followed Him far and wide;
"I come not to bring you peace, but a sword",
So they killed Jesus Christ on the sly.

He went to the sick, he went to the poor;
And he went to the hungry and the lame;
Said that the poor would one day win this world,
And so they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

They nailed Him there to die on a cross in the sky,
In the lightning, the thunder and the rain.
Judas Iscariot committed suicide
When they laid poor Jesus Christ in his grave.

One day Jesus stopped at a rich man's door.
"What must I do to be saved?"
"You must take all your goods and give it to the poor",
And so they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

They nailed Him there to die on a cross in the sky,
In the lightning, the thunder and the rain.
Judas Iscariot committed suicide
When they laid poor Jesus Christ in his grave.

When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate,
When the patience of the workers gives away;
"Would be better for you rich if you never had been born",
So they laid Jesus Christ in His grave.

This song was written in New York City,
Of rich man, preachers, and slaves;
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like He preached in Galillee ,
They would lay Jesus Christ in His grave.

We all know the horrible stuff; it is great to be reminded that we aren't all a bunch of fire-breathing warmongers!

Christians have been behind most of the liberal movements in this country and elsewhere.

Christianity is not what the fundies practice. Their's is a cultish version of a religion of peace and love towards others.

Others have used it for their nefarious ends throughout history.

But fear Christians?

Fear fundies of any stripe. (including atheists who fall into the extremist category)

The holy spirit is still working in the world for those who are open to it, it's always been here and always will be.

Peace

Until Jesus "comes back" and tells these assholes to stop killing and persecuting and ostrcizing people in HIS name, what would you suggest we do to protect ourselves from the perverts who think they have a holy mandate to practice Cultural Cleansing?

Have you never heard of Rushdoony? the Dominionists?
Go educate yourself, then come back and tell me it's "crap".

those are Dominionists

cult of Rushdoony

Bushists

And they're going be reading from the KJV while they hang me or burn me at the stake.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Hey, if disowning that bunch helps you get through Wednesday night Church Pot-Luck better, go for it. Yep, just say "those aren't *REAL* Christians and turn around and walk away...

Me, I'm putting in extra time at the Range. Gettin' my chops back pretty quickly, too.

Instead of using their own terms, or obscure terms, Supremicist already has a negative connotation with the association with White Supremicist groups, these types of Christians are the same in relation to religion as the White Supremicists are to race. Given that, its an accurate description, I think.

See, Christians, defined in the simplest terms possible, are simply people who believe in the Divinity of Jesus. This is rather broad definition, Liberal Christians, like Barry W. Lynn, head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and also a Minister, along with Christian Supremicists, like Pat Robertson, are both "True" Christians. Given this, I figure its best to separate the two by using a word that is descriptive as well as somewhat neutral as a non-Christian like myself would term it.

"Hey, if disowning that bunch helps you get through Wednesday night Church Pot-Luck better, go for it. Yep, just say "those aren't *REAL* Christians and turn around and walk away..."



:mad:

Yeah, wouldn't be the "Christian thing to do", would it?

Look, I'm sick of you people disowning various monsters of history who are Christians just because it crowds your comfort level and is dissonant with all that stuff you learned at college back in the Jesus People days.

Hitler was a Christian, too. Deal.

Now I'm responsible for monsters that claimed to be Christians?

WTF?

"I'm sick of you people disowning various monsters of history who are Christians just because it crowds your comfort level and is dissonant with all that stuff you learned at college back in the Jesus People days."

And what exactly are the "Jesus People days"???????


What ya smoking? Want some of that.

It's not a button you can wear nor is it a card you carry in your pocket. Churches aren't Houses of God because they claim to be, they are Houses of God if they serve God. Just as a Christian is someone who serves God, not a person who does Evil in his name.

Jesus is very clear on how we are supposed to act and think about the world around us. If you haven't read the Bible, I suggest reading just one Book, the Gospel of Mathew. In it he makes it quite clear who these people are that commit evil in the name of the Lord. They are not followers of Christ but members of clubs called "The Church". Don't confuse these two things. Even if you don't believe Jesus was holy, you have to believe that he did not support what these types of people stood for.

To say Hitler was a Christian is like saying he also believed in Gandhi's non-violence. It's an absurd notion and it shows you have no idea of what you are talking about. You should take the time and at least read more about him. You'd really like him. He hated hypocrisy and lies. He stood up to power and defied the established order. He bravely went to Jeruselum even though he knew it would mean his death. Forget about the God in Jesus and just read the story of the man and what he said.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm

And for the record, it's not us throwing them out of our club, they were never in the club to begin with.

...Beware of the scribes, who like to go around in long robes and accept greetings in the marketplaces, seats of honor in synagogues, and places of honor at banquets. They devour the houses of widows and, as a pretext, recite lengthy prayers. They will receive a very severe condemnation."


...Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.


...Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

I get nervous and cautious.... That implies a bias... You people always do this..... :wtf:

"you people" is practically a roadmap of a person's heart, in my opinion.

nt

I'm so tired to Christians insisting that Christianity is blameless just because a few disconnected Christians think they can retroactively disown anyone they don't personally like.

why some folks can argue logically, with repsect and give and take, and others take the opportunity to get in their digs and be as hurtful as they think they can get away with. Says a lot about the person, really, when you think about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

I think you could use some extra time looking at them

Bigotry and Broad-Brush Smears

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

-------------------------------------------------

your bigotry and broad brush smears toward Christians is despicable.

Shame on you.

I've done nothing to you in your life. Don't blame me for whatever slights or injuries you've had that you want to blame Christianity for.

With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not. If you are easily offended by discussions about religious beliefs, or if you take pleasure from offending or ridiculing people with different beliefs, or if you consider progressive people with different beliefs to be your enemy or your inferior, do not participate in religious discussions on Democratic Underground.

---------------------------------------------------

If you'd read the rules you wouldn't be asking for specificity now would you?

And you will probably in all likelihood continue to do NOTHING, as these "cults" rise up and infiltrate our government and pass laws that make it a DUTY to kill people like me.

No, you'll turn your back, walk away and say to yourself "See? I TOLD you they can't be 'REAL' Christians...*MY* Jesus is all about LOVE..."

You think you're being "bashed" why are you wasting your time arguing with me when you have a perfectly good "Alert" button on your screen?

I don't turn my back to a fight, ever!

You just can't say all Christians are responsible for the crazies out there!

Just like you can't say all Muslims are responsible for the crazies out there!

Just like you can't say all atheists are responsible for the crazies out there!

Just like you can't say all Jews are responsible for the crazies out there!

Just like you can't broad brush any group with as many and as large a number of folks as "Christians" and blame Christians for the dominionists!

They are a bunch of crazy mutherfuckers, I'll grant you that, but they aren't the mainstream no matter how much they want to believe that!

Mainstream Protestantism and Catholicism didn't just go away.

I'm ready to fight! Bring it on dominionists!

I just don't get folks like you who just want to blame all of Christianity for the actions of the greedy, powerful, and evil ones that exist.

Grow up or something like it!

from your profile:

hobby-Marginalizing stuporstitious religous whackos

----------------------------------------------------------

I see I'm wasting my time even trying to debate you

..then I'll agree with you, you're wasting your time.

BTW, what should I do about your "masticate me!" comment? alert on you, since you seem to be a stickler for The RULES, and that retort is a CLEAR violation of said rules, or should i just ignore it?

finding it since it is edited out

or did you get a screen capture?

do what you wish with it

what is your trip????

And I say that as (a) a christian who (b) agrees wholeheartedly with the OP.

I think BiggJawn makes a good point. It's one thing to say "Robertson's not a real Christian"--it certainly makes liberal christians feel better, and I think it carries the weight of technical accuracy ;)--but what does that do for those who are being persecuted by legions of people who call themselves christians and who are called christians by the media and are considered christians by the general public?

The fact is, there is a bitter war going on for the heart and soul of Christianity right now, and in the grand scheme of things the bad guys seem to be winning. Saying they aren't really christians isn't enough. We have to acknowledge that there are sick evil bastards who have co-opted the religion and used it for their own ends. Maybe in the long run we can redefine christianity in the public mind, but until then it does no good to deny the massive gap b/w the public understanding of "christian" and the liberal interpretation of christianity, nor to expect some sort of awareness of that gap to soothe the wounds of people who are genuinely threatened by the currently prevailing dark forces of (alleged) christianity.

people running our government are not "real" Republicans?

and has been baptized into the faith (I can't think of any Christian religion that doesn't require baptism, so correct me if I'm wrong) IS a Christian.

Now, are these folks we are freaking about (fundies, dominionists, Falwell, etc.) GOOD Christians? I would say no, because so much of their world view appears to be completely contrary to the teachings of Christ.

But they are Christians.

It is so ironic, because the folks who look at all of Christianity and see only fundamentalists are, themselves, falling into the same mental traps the fundies do: stereotyping, narrow vision...

If the topic is essentially 'real christians aren't bigots and fascists' you cannot rule the dispositive 'yes they are' out of bounds. You may not like biggjawn's style but he is arguing one side of this issue.

but Charles didn't wish me a happy Mother's Day.

:eyes:

:eyes:

How large a movement is Dominionism? Or is its power in the fact that it has scared the crap out of us? I know extremism exists. But we've had the Klan and skinhead and the militia movements as well, and being fringe, they never made any headway.

My concern is that the existence of these groups puts a wedge between secular and people of faith ON OUR SIDE and we spend our time fussing about who is and isn't a Christian when that is not the job at hand. We need to be united now more than ever.

Here is something that might be an eye opener to you. Go back and look at posts over the past two weeks and see how much trash is talked by folks with low counts. They come across as ubber liberal but something just isn't right. I think the opposition has figured out that the best way to weaken us is to get us fighting among ourselves, arguing the same old stuff over and over.

In an article published in the National Review Online last year.
They also go by the name "Christian Reconstructionists"

We have seen their handiwork already. It appears that they are the driving force behind make "God's Law" the Law of the Land.
Ati-gay, anti-choice laws, 10 Commandment laws, Idiotic Design curriculums, all theirs.

35,000,000, with attentive ears in Congress strikes me as a force to reckon with, any way you wanna look at it.

There are around 280 million people in the us of whom about 75% are Christian. That makes 210 million and no way that 1 out of 7 Christians are reconstructionists.

we need to get a grip on what it is we are facing. The number he quotes is alarming, but common sense tells me one out of 7 is not right. Just looking at the churches in my town, the majority are "mainstream Protestant" Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian. Then there are probably an equal number of mainstream Baptist and Southern Baptist, and I'd guess not many of those folks are that extreme. Then you have the hard-core folks, Assembly of God, etc. They are much fewer in number. Now, that is a completely unscientific survey and I'd really like to see some numbers I can trust.

virtually NO mainstream churches left...all megachurch or the unaffiliated Baptist...lot's of churches here too. You must be lucky in your town.

Would you been more comfortable with a number from Pat Robertson? I don't have days to spend trying to find a more "trustable" number that will also be met with "No WAY!", anyway.

And what is YOUR provenance that there is "no way" that 1 of 7 are NOT Dominionists? I say "this guy says there's 35 million of 'em" and YOU say "No WAY!". OK, back it up, please.

with some local examples. Admittedly not scientific. But you brought it up.

I can really only go by my life. I've never met any nor seen any evidence of any dominionists. I am trying to figure out whether this is something to worry about or alarmism and Chicken Little talking. When you start talking about heading to the firing range, I kind of put you into a different category in my mind.

And that category shall remain private.

And he was one scary customer, let me tell you... Didn't have a driver's license, carried cash, never used cheques, and used to talk about "Armageddon" like it was an upcoming thing that he was going to participate in, not an abstract theological concept.

And as an Atheist, I don't have the "Full armour of God", so I need to rely on Messrs. Smith and Wesson...:)
I hope it never comes to that, but I'll be damned if I'm led to slaughter like some Sheep.

I found this:

*****
Each year the annual Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches publishes information on North America's largest religious bodies. The Yearbook is a publication of the National Council of Churches (NCC). The membership counts published in this work are primarily based on organizational reporting. The Yearbook's data are used in U.S. Government publications and various almanacs. Below are the largest U.S. religious bodies (distinct churches) according the 2004 Yearbook or more recent organizational reports:

Top Ten Largest Religious Bodies in the United States
(Figures reflect U.S. membership only. A few of these religious bodies have significant numbers of members in other countries as well.)

Rank Religious Body Year Membership
1 Catholic Church 2002 66,407,105
2 Southern Baptist Convention 2003 16,400,000
3 United Methodist Church 2002 8,251,042
4 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2004 5,599,177
5 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 2003 4,984,925
6 Church of God in Christ 1991 * 4,500,000
7 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2001 3,595,259
8 National Baptist Convention of America 1987 3,500,000
9 Assemblies of God 2002 2,687,366
10 Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod 2003 2,512,714

*****
I think, looking at this, that 35 mil is overblown. However, nothing skews one's perspective more than dealing with something in real life. I can understand your paranoia more readily knowing you have lived with the problem first hand. I simply have never met one that I am aware of. And when I look at the attempts to meld church and state I keep seeing them getting slammed in most places.

But... I guess the Reconstructionists don't want they real numbers known.
Regardless, they DO have a political agenda, and they DO harrangue their congress-critters (if the Critters aren't Dominionists THEMSELVES) and they DO get their agenda debated and sometimes passed into Law.
So I think it's a rather "head-in-sand" POV to dismiss them with a simple "Oh, they're not REAL Christians" wave of the hand like a lot of folks seem comfy doing here.

And Granny.....

It's NOT paranoia if somebody IS out to get you.

but I have a different approach. I don't care if they worship goats and eat their cajones for holy communion. I don't want to argue their faith. They can believe whatever they want; that is their right. They can say whatever they want.

The way to take them down is NOT by attacking them via their beliefs. The way to take them down is with the tools we have at hand: the Constitution, free elections, Bill of Rights, etc. Are they making it difficult with their tampering? Sure. But I still have faith that this system which has worked for two centuries still has some rigor left in it and will take them down. The signs are everywhere. They are extremists. We will always have extremists. Don't let them frame the battle by arguing about faith. That's their business. Take the battle into the political realm where it belongs.

And when you broaden your personal attacks to include people of faith ON YOUR SIDE you shoot yourself not just in the foot, but right in the butt.

There may be that many people who belong to religions whose leaders have identified themselves with dominionism, or "Christian reconstructionists", but the people in the churches don't necessarily agree with their leaders 100% of the time, or even 50% of the time.

How far have they gotten with making the 10 commandments the law of the land?

I think that while they are a force to be reckoned with, and they vote for the most part, they are not the dominant force in American Christianity

"How far have they gotten with making the 10 commandments the law of the land? "

Not very far! A majority of states still kill people in the name of the law. Or are states as opposed to individuals excempt from 'Thau shalt not kill'?

you are right.

So is a Dominionist a Christian Reconstructionist?

I know about South Dakota and abortion. I know there is a huge backlash, as well. Where have they won regarding the Ten Commandments? My memory there is that they lost the big case in Alabama. Where have ID curriculums been enforced? (other than PA, where the School Board was unseated because of it.)

What anti-gay laws are you talking about? Can you elaborate for me?

From my perspective I see them trying like hell to do all the things you have mentioned, but failing 90% of the time, and even when they succeed, there is a backlash.

There are very few degrees of separation between R.J. Rushdoony, the father of Christian Reconstruction, and the people currently running the country. Rushdoony, for example, was a member of the Council of National Policy, as was his son-in-law Gary North. He and his followers may not be completely interchangeable with the more prominent (because slightly more palatable to the public) right-wing nutjobs like gary bauer and tim lahaye, but there are huge overlaps, and their influence, whatever their numbers, is not to be sneezed at in the republican party, the bush administration, and (alas) the nation.

IF Jesus comes back. . . they'll kill him. They are the pharisees' people, they don't want to hear about pacifism, about loving your neighbors (yes, even the brown ones), etc. Sacrifice of self to become a better person? The fundies don't want to make small sacrifices for the environment, or for those less fortunate. Rather than acknowledge that, "There is great need, therefore, likewise there should be great effort." They prefer to "give to their church" and trust that that is helping out the disadvantaged.

True christians are like liberals, they are quiet, and "live the life" not going for personal gain, they therefore are shining lights for those around them, and little else. It is far easier for a pompous windbag to get a lot of attention, lying the entire time, and only concerned with his own profit. This negative stigma to religion and politics will always be there, I see no way to change it.

of both Christian and Muslim. It is unfortunate that both seem to have hijacked control of their respective religions and are in control.

Mainstream clergy need to take them back away from all HATE and focus on all the LOVE, HUMANITY, and PEACE in each religion.

And that is the point of the other side in this debate. The 'bush cabal' has three components: corporate greed heads, neocon imperialists, and fundaloon dominionists. That last group represents the religious right's ascendence into power. Your side in this debate can dismiss them as 'not-christians' but unfortunately they are the'not-christians' now in power in our republic, establishing a backdoor not-christian theocracy, and a lot of us NON CHRISTIANS are having a hard time separating all of you christians and not-christians as you all claim to be christians and you christians are establishing a goddamn theocracy.

A revolutionary in the Gandhi/Tolstoy mold that sought to overthrow the prevailing system by changing people's hearts.

I'm not a Christian, but I have great admiration for Jesus the man whose teachings were distorted by his followers and the religion(s) that make a mockery of what he actually said.

"Truly it is easier for a camel to jump thru the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

which the thread you've cited makes clear.

One is the attempt on the part of the right-wing fundamentalist Christians to hijack the entire church and if possible establish it as the official state religion, Constitution be damned.

The second is the attempt on the part of those who are virulently hostile to religion in general and to Christianity in particular to identify all persons of faith and/or all Christians with the right-wing fundamentalists.

In terms of ignorance, they're about equal. They have about equal nuisance value, too, in that they seem to put the rational folk on the defensive through the use of strawman argument and a certain looseness with the truth. In terms of power to do actual harm, though, only the first is of any consequence.

But hostility to religion is not the same thing as identifying all persons of faith with fundies.

I've seen plenty of threads here where people simply don't allow for the possibility that Christians aren't fundamentalist. And more of it in real life.

I'm the pastor of a gay-friendly, progressive church. I've been told I'm not a Christian by both fundies and Atheists.

The most die-hard atheists here at DU are pragmatic folks and when you scratch the surface, very tolerant. But there are a few people (don't even know if they are atheists or what), and there are a few in this thread, that take their anger at dominionists and their ilk and spread it out liberally and in the process, divide us and make our defeat more likely.

T-Grannie

wait. wait. are you trying to tell me J.C. isnt a homophobe? and that he loves gays too? perish the thought. Heavens to mergatroid Shock and inseret adverb.
On a more serious note folks, the reason that people buy into that crap is be cause they, in my humble opinion, have lost the ability to think for them selves. to quote mike malloy they have become sheeple. Never give up your right to dissent

ancestors of the christofascists of today. He said attacks on (RW) christianity of today was essentially support of slavery.

I remeber thinking that many of the RW christians today have more in common with the slave-holders than with the abolitionists.

NOTE: It may have been a member of the Heritage Foundation.

Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, and Pentacostals are indeed the decendents of southern Christians. It is the decendents of northern Christians (Puritians, Congregationalists, northern Baptists and the like) who can claim a direct kinship with the abolishionists.

were Episcopalians, sadly, as that is my denomination. It was the faith of the planter class, many of whom were Tories.

Episcopalians were common among slave owners sadly. But that really is the only exception.

are the result of decades of liberal leadership, going back to abolitionists like the Beechers. Nothing new under the sun.

slavery. That was their reason d'etre in the early years.

and paradise in the afterlife. Instead, slaves read in it a message for liberation and justice on earth. (God's Politics, pp. 66-7).


http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060558288/ref=sib_vae_pg_66/103-0913486-6351016?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=%22slaves%22&p=S02S&twc=8&checkSum=20GOwVga1DabA7yEoaY2wB9hzu2H%2BXUV32BZP6JkqFo%3D#reader-page

chief among them Abramoff.

After reading God's Politics about a year ago, I posted this same message as in the OP dozens of times at DU. It got a lot of resistance from a few DU'ers.

I was surprised.

However, soon, I expect all progressives will realize that anti-religious sentiment is a wedge that is probably driven by the right wing.

Why attack Christians?

What value is there in that?

Especially when those Christians are members of DU and vote for democrats.

... was he ?

Gandhiji's unshakeable faith in universal brotherhood is reflected in his fascination for the hymns from the Bible, the Koran, and the Gita

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2002/09/30/stories/2002093001480300.htm

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

From the DU Rules:

"With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detai...
This is the DU member formerly, presently, and always known as RoadRunner.

:hi:

Redstone:
"His message was threefold: Tolerance, compassion, and charity.

None of which the "hijackers" of His name practice."

AMEN, brother!

I completely agree.

There's a racket going on in Washington these days: RWs fooling people into thinking that they alone are paragons of virtue and morals and those who disagree with them are "enemies of virtue". This lie, which we, unfortunately, have allowed to spread, has won them a plethora of votes since 2000.

It's actually fortuitous that you brought this up. I read an excellent column in Time magazine about this issue, which you can find http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191826,00.html">here.

The Religious Right does not represent the majority of Christians, though they like to believe that they do. I think it's time that religious liberals speak up and take religion back from these nutjobs.
Ringo

The religious right does not represent the majority of Christians. However, they do represent some of wealthiest so-called Christians, which gives them their power.

I also agree that no matter what anger we may have for these people, ultimately, we have failed to counter their rhetoric. It is up to each of us to publicly re-frame the idea of what being a true Christian is. This, I believe, is the only way to remove the political power these fascist's have.

First of all, Welcome To DU! I'm fairly new myself.

Secondly, I too agree with you. We definitely need to redefine what a Christian is. They narrowly define Christians as conservative Republicans. What does that make me - an atheist?

Good thoughts.
Ringo

that I have way more in common with a nice garden variety atheist than anyone who goes to Assembly of God.

Me too, though I am a Christian.

I think that I take my religion as seriously as the fundies. It's just that I see things a lot differently than they do. They see persecution around every corner. I don't.

I just can't identify with idiots. Which is why I'm not a fundy.
Ringo

"Christians have had it so good for so long in this country, they wouldn't know persecution if it jumped up and bit them in the ass."

What you're saying rings true.

Something tells me you may not be right about this. I grew up as a fundamentalist and most of the "Christians" I've known have been fundies. They are a huge demographic and have been growing steadily since the late seventies. I've run into far more fundamentalists than moderate Christians in my lifetime. I've seen stadiums filled with them. I've seen megachurches filled with them. And let me repeat: They are growing!

So, can we get a demographic on this?

I've about had it with religious wackos. A lifetime of craziness can really get to a person. Maybe I should hand off to the moderates...if they really exist in sufficient numbers to check the rising tide of crazies.

I posted this up (or down!) thread but I'll post it again.

Each year the annual Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches publishes information on North America's largest religious bodies. The Yearbook is a publication of the National Council of Churches (NCC). The membership counts published in this work are primarily based on organizational reporting. The Yearbook's data are used in U.S. Government publications and various almanacs. Below are the largest U.S. religious bodies (distinct churches) according the 2004 Yearbook or more recent organizational reports:

Top Ten Largest Religious Bodies in the United States
(Figures reflect U.S. membership only. A few of these religious bodies have significant numbers of members in other countries as well.)

Rank Religious Body Year Membership
1 Catholic Church 2002 66,407,105
2 Southern Baptist Convention 2003 16,400,000
3 United Methodist Church 2002 8,251,042
4 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2004 5,599,177
5 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 2003 4,984,925
6 Church of God in Christ 1991 * 4,500,000
7 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2001 3,595,259
8 National Baptist Convention of America 1987 3,500,000
9 Assemblies of God 2002 2,687,366
10 Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod 2003 2,512,714

Catholics can be fundy or non-fundy, so it's hard to gauge. Most Southern Baptists are very fundy. Methodists tend to be more moderate. Mormons are definitely fundy. Lutherans tend to be moderate. Assembly of God = :crazy:

So, it's hard to really to determine much of anything based on this list. :( Catholics outnumber everyone else, so it might be a good idea to look into the Catholic Church and see how many are hard-core fundies. Of course, among the Catholics there's another interesting phenomenon: folks that go to church but don't really believe. :) Would you call those folks "Christians"? It's odd, but there are probably a lot of atheists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. that are more Christ-like than fundies from the various denominations.

I tend to let people label themselves. Fundies say moderates aren't "real" Christians. Moderate and liberal Christians say the same of fundies. If an atheist does something I don't like, can I claim he isn't a "real" atheist? :)

atheists really have a belief system. They believe...

hey! what are all those tomatoes whizzing through the air?


heheheheh just kidding.

I have heard atheists fuss with each other and get in little digs about who is atheist-er than who. I guess it's a very human response.

So, my actual belief system may not be much like that of another atheist. For example, I rather detest Ayn Rand Objectivists. They are a-religious dogmatists, no better than religious fundies.

I would like for my belief system to be closely related to humanism, but what I've seen of human beings makes me cynical. Let's just say I try to function as if I believe in the good of human beings, but they've screwed me so many times I keep looking over my shoulder. :grr: If they are fanatically religious, I keep my eyes on them constantly. The worst people I've ever known have all been religious fanatics.

WooHoo! We're number seven! We're number seven!...

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

And she is esp. sick of feeling like a second-hand Christian because fundamentalists make her teeth itch.

our christianity...... you really cannot see what a segment of christianity is doing ot this country that is not at all christ like. i did not read that other post.... i am more surprised by your post that you would put out goods that christians do and ignore all the harm they have doen in the past or the harm they do today. it is christianities struggle of dark and lite. right now the dark of christianity has hold of this nation. when the lite becomes the strength of christianity, then you dont need to hang head in shame, or actively fight our fellow christians that are doing wrong and not walking in christa love but promoting hate.

but by equating Christians with Robertson and Falwell we slit our own throats.

at this time in htis nation. anytime christianity is being discussed it is with the voice of falwell or robertson or dobson. this is HOW we are being represented today. is there more to chritianity or another side? yaaaa. just isnt being heard right now. you and i may not equate robertson or falwell or dobson (cant forget dobson, he is looking ot have more power than the other two, just not as much publicity) is our christian, doesnt mean they have not convinced a lot of people they are what christianity is. so seeing as this is the problem, i am not fighting those speaking out against christianity, i strongly fight my fellow christians that are not listening ot christs words. a story

my niece goes to a private christian school. both my boys did for 6 years, i pulled them out. it was all old testament. she got her SAT tests back and on religion she received high knowledge in old testament and low knowledge in the new testament. that is what is being taught in todays christianity.

the people htat accomplished all you were saying, were the religion of the new testament. the battles and war, old testament. right now old testament rules and we are hearing eye for an eye and not, turn the other cheek.

(to state the obvious). I got caught up last night watching an hour about signs of "the Antichrist" on the History Channel. It was kind of mind-jarring to hear the fundies going on about the attributes of the Antichrist and to realize that almost every single thing they said about his nature and plans applies to the ** administration. How can they not see that the one thing they fear the most is staring them right in the face -- and they WILLINGLY choose to follow. It just makes no sense at all to me.

The way I see it, there's nothing at all Jesus-like going on in these big political fundie churches. They are no different than the money-changers in the temple. Where do they come up with all these national days of prayer, etc. etc., when Jesus so clearly said that when you pray, you should do it in secret...that the people praying on the street corners and patting themselves on the back for being so "righteous" are like whitewashed sepulchers, all shiny and white to appearances but like rotting corpses inside? What about "the meek shall inherit the earth" and "blessed are the peacemakers" don't they understand?

Sorry to rant, but you touched a nerve with this one.

There is a great tradition of progressive activism by christians in this country. I certainly hope that there is a strong future for it as well :toast:

He that believeth not shall be damned (16:16 Mark)

He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (3:36 John)

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.(1 :7-9 Thessaloinans)

The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone (21:8 Revelation)

The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. (28:35 Deutronomy)

That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth. Psalm 58:6

If you spout peace and love and respect and tolerance, then by definition, you are NOT a True Christian! At best you're engaged in creative selection of 'facts' that suit you.Why not take that one tiny step further and put those Humane convictions on a firm Humanistic basis?

creative selection...interesting that you blast your own methods...and even worse, you quoted Christ but twice in the list you made...

pot...meet kettle

sP

I said christ in the subjectline but I meant christianity but that wouldn't fit.

Of course I made creative selections. The 10 commandments are in exodus and I consider those rules the core of my personal values.

But no matter how one twists it, it simply cannot be denied that the bible is full of atrocities and violence and incitement to mass murder.

As an objective outsider, why should I believe YOU what the 'True' interpretation is? A great lot take the violence to hearth, and also claim to have the True Interpretation. Thats what worries me.

Christ doesn't give everybody a get-out-of-jail free pass.

But he also tells us that it's none of our business who gets where. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "don't worry about the splinter in your neighbors eye when you have a log in your own."

Only your first two examples were attributed to Christ. And the psalms were written by very human folks who spent a long time saying "smite my enemies, please God" and then kind of saying "or not" in subsequent psalms. Very human approach. Christ did not write the psalms.

I don't see where you can say that Christ did not spout "peace, love, respect and tolerance" from those examples. He was telling his followers that the wages of not believing in him are not happy ones, but he never implied we should attempt to bring them about here on earth. You'd have a point if he talked about prisons, tortures and punishment on earth but he is talking about after death, where none of us have dominion.

The Bush admin claims the mantle of Christianity, and if you see their policies for what they really are, you will conclude that Christianity is violent, unjust and generally frightening. The Christian poverty activists working to end homelessness in your community just don't rate the same level of visibility.

We are renovating right now and have various strangers in and out of our home. Last week my husband said, in reference to a plasterer, Watch out for that one he has a bible in his truck.

Jesus would be horrified at the hate and bigotry spewed by the Reich Wing. Only the rabid, misguided fundies think they are "Christians."

The rest of the world thinks they're insane.

We need to make sure people know the difference, because people assume that we are attacking *all* Christians on the left when we really aren't. If you aren't some wacko extremist fundie, then you are okay.

Tammy

In history. Events such as the Crusades, the Dark Ages,the conquest of America and the Native Americans, etc.

Christianity is a religion, and like any religion it can be used for both good and evil, to enlighten or blind, to promote good or to provide cover for evil.

Sadly, right now I believe it is being used to blind the masses and to further an evil agenda. Can the left take it back as a force for good, I don't know. I think the question to answer first is whether or not the left really should use such a double edged sword. It is one that has a nasty habit of coming back and biting one later.:shrug:

Worse, actually.

Care to stay on topic? Be polite and not hijack a thread?

People can't use the argument that you did without responding to what I posted. You can get me to shut up about it but go out into the real world and you will hear what I just said. If you want to pretend you won't, fine I guess.

Including making sense in a post, or stop hijacking a thread to fulfill some desperate need you have to villify everything that you consider "left".

All I'm doing is posting about Christianity, on a thread about Christianity, and you're having to jump in and hijack a thread. What prompted your leftist comment? Me, or the subject? Did some connection get made between a thread about Christianity and a your wish to villify leftists? Or is it just me?

Look Laz, I'd love to kick it around with you some more, your witty repartee is most entertaining:eyes: But I'm not going to further hijack this thread to deal with you, OK. If you want to cross words with me sometime, please pick a thread where we can do it on topic. Anything else is disrespectful.

So get your snarky last word in, and then this thread can get back to it's main topic, Christianity, not villifying leftists:eyes:

If you think I was, then you do not understand my post or how it works.

Not sure how much of a contributing factor Christianity was to the start and continuation of the Dark Ages.

Especially about the role of the Church in the collapse of the Roman Empire. Also the Church's role in Dark Age education and the lack thereof. Much of the technological advances perfected by the Romans were lost due to Church suppression.

But the Byzantine Empire was Christian and it lasted another 1000 years. Perhaps beliefs in the Gods of old protected Rome better than Christ.

that the term "Dark Ages" is a misnomer and passe'.

But the term is so ubiquitous that it just doesn't go away. Verbal shorthand that sticks around:shrug:

I begin to wonder if some DU names have been hacked and hijacked. Some of the responses here have been incoherent.

The fact should be that everyone whether atheist, theist, fundamentalist, agnostic, spinozaist, or plain old church-goer should feel more comfortable with Dems than with the corrupt CONs.

"Jesus ... came to earth to bring us supply side tax cuts."

;)

Progressives are generally good people, fundies are generally bad people, but both are GOOD CHRISTIANS. Disowning them or ignoring them isn't gonna do you any good.

and let's talk about it.

that is why in the last 30 years, the right have bought the media and coopted religion.

a longer historical view of Christianity shows a much less consistent record of championing progressive and humanist ideals.

Sadly, the religious pendulum has swung hard back to the fundamentalist end of the spectrum. This is not a right wing fiction. It is all too real.

Having been one of the latter, raised in an environment that matches the Right's spin exactly, I have a hard time with the word "Christian." I think anyone who actually follows the teachings of Christ should come up with a new word. That's one's been sullied beyond repair.

You asked why we buy into it.

Many (I 'd say a majority) on this board think highly of the Christian faith (even though not many of us are Christians). It's nearly imposible for one post to accurately reflect the views of all of DU - espcially not this one.

Otherwise, excellent points. I would add that my Christian faith is a main reason why I'm a Democrat. Oh, and by the way: God loves gays. "Thou shalt not be homosexual" is not a commandment.

That why I'm so down on it all even tho I consider myself a "christian" (I personally believe in christ and god, just not any organized religion right now).

... virtually every evil in this country's and the white world's history.

What was your point again? I lost it in the un-blinders-ness of history....

I especially love it when christians try to sugarcoat their history by saying all the bad things done weren't REALLY christian - just the good things.