Sorry......more Tar Baby

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990212

Several people have written:

I have come across the term "tar baby" recently. For example, a recent newspaper editorial mentioned the Clinton impeachment as a "tar baby" they'd have to get rid of before the 2000 elections. Another article, on a drug-policy Web site, mentioned the "medical marijuana tar baby" as an issue that the FDA had to deal with. What does the expression mean, and where does it come from?

The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.

The folktale achieved currency in the United States in written form in one of Joel Chandler Harris's Uncle Remus stories, a collection of stories based on African-American folklore, narrated by the fictional Uncle Remus, a former slave. In the story "Tar-Baby," the character Brer Fox makes a doll out of tar, which he places by the road to entrap his enemy Brer Rabbit. Brer Rabbit talks to the doll, and when it doesn't answer, he hits it, and gets stuck in the tar. The more he struggles with it, the more he is entangled in it.

This story has led to the figurative use of tar baby in the sense 'an inextricable problem or situation', sometimes with the nuance 'something used to entrap a person'. Both the examples cited in the question show the use of this sense, which appears to be first used in the early twentieth century.

The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.

and more from this site:

NBC 10 obtained a copy of the e-mail.

snip

"What is disturbing to us is that he referred to Susan Rigsby as a 'tar baby,' which is a very offensive term, and then also said she was wicked to the core," said Mike Walsh from Local 2186, Rigsby's union.

A member of the board of trustees of the library said on Thursday it was a personnel matter and it would be inappropriate to discuss it in public.

snip

Union officials demanded Vaughn's ouster via a news release. They said Vaughan accidentally sent the e-mail about Rigsby to Rigsby.

"I want to be really clear -- I don't think anybody should lose a job," Schwartz said. "We are asking that he no longer keep the job he has over our members."

One day after the e-mail, Vaughan wrote an apology, but the union said the apology is even more outrageous than the original comments.

"His apology says that it was his true feelings," Walsh said. "He's just sorry that he sent it to her by mistake."

Although the e-mail recipient, Rigsby, is white, the term "tar baby" is commonly known to be a racial slur.

I love Toni Morrison's writing, but I haven't read this particular title of hers. I'm curious about the "tar baby" reference and the way in which she uses it. It's obviously a complex metaphor for an author to mine, given its use both as a racial epithet and as a folklore reference coming from African-American culture.

Not sure when I'll have time, but gotta read it now to answer my own question. :)

I have always understood it in the original context mentioned in your post. I feel like a jackass now for ever having used it but I can honestly say that I didn't know it was derogatory.

oddly enough. Back in NC, it was used to desgnate any sticky situation that only got worse if you tried to get away from it.

Like I said, I feel like a complete asshole because I'm sure I have used the term before in conversation and now I'm worried that people may have mistaken my intention.

I can't say I've ever used the tar baby metaphor, or would even have thought to do so, but I sure as heck won't do it now after reading the posts chronicling the strongly negative association this term has for so many people.

But I hope the briar patch is safe to use, 'cause that metaphor is a handy one.

Dan Rather used the term Tar Baby to describe Iraq and DU'ers weren't haveng shitfits then.

Don't feel like an idiot for being actually understanding a cultural reference in its proper context.

Apparently many Black Americans don't know that Tar Baby references a folk tale FROM THEIR OWN ANCESTRAL PAST and don't want reclaim the term.

Sad.

What would we do without you? :eyes:

First of all, tar baby has been used as a derogatory term for black people regardless of its original meaning. I heard the term used that way when I was a child and I'm 34 now. Blame racist white folks for changing the meaning.

Second, you don't have a clue what black people know or don't know about our own ancestral past.

On edit: As far as Tony Snow is concerned, his comment was about a sticky situation when you read it in context. Besides that, I really don't give a damn about what he said. I'm just tired of people acting like they have to give a damn history lesson to us so black people won't act all irrationally over some words, like we're children or something.

When you're referring to a situation or an issue, "tar baby" is a descriptive.

When you're referring to a person or a group of persons, "tar baby" is a racist epithet, and you should kick the person who uses it like that square in the nads for being such a fool.

EDITED because my brain works faster than my fingers.

... I read those stories when I was a kid. About the tar baby (hit me and see what good it does you) and about Brer-rabbit's briar patch (throw me in the briar patch - convince an enemy to fight you on your turf so he cannot win).

I think of these as timeless fables of wisdom, and I've neither heard or used "tar baby" to describe an individual.

Personally, crying "racism" when there is none isn't helping anyone.

because it taught me to never let anyone know what bothers you, what you fear the most, etc., because the person you tell can come back at you or use that information against you. I went to Chandler's house in Atlanta, now on the "black" side of town. He heard these tales from an old ex slave guy who'd tell them to Chandler when he was a boy. I have the actual book and try reading it aloud; it's more tounge twisty than Fox in Sox.

What're you doing on DU? :evilgrin:

'Personally, crying "racism" when there is none isn't helping anyone.'

You nailed it. Thanks.

at his Press Conference.

By the way, how many African Americans are in that Press Room?

I see the phrase as a racist insult if it's used to describe a black person, no question. But in the context of the Brer Rabbit folktales, a reference to THE tar baby didn't qualify as an insult in my mind.

However, after reading the dozens of outraged comments from DUers who see it as an insult, regardless of context, I concede the distinction is a moot point. The current cultural perception is that this metaphor is not acceptable.

If I'm going to draw a line in the sand, I'll go over to the group still trying to defend "niggardly".

But only 'cuz they're so damn cheap...

:rofl:

Geez, Bloo, we just met and you can't stay away from me.

:P

I'll go somewhere else now :)

... what a word means when that word has two meanings?

Hint:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=context

con·text
n.
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

A word or phrase can mean many things at the same time, depending on generation, region, culture and personal experience. Meanings shift over time as well, so terms that were once acceptable or at least debatable, may become less so as the pejorative connotations spread throughout the culture.

For SOME of us, the Brer Rabbit reference is not a racial epithet, but obvioulsy (based on the posts here in DU) it does have that strong connotation for other people. And part of the social contract is learning when to give way on a term which is not universally reviled, but still has sufficiently negative connotations to upset people.

nuff said.

If your audience doesn't get the context you're using, then you're delivering the wrong message. Your intent is misunderstood.

A good writer always strives to keep a balance between expressing themselves in a manner that is true to their perceptions AND choosing the words and allusions that accurately translate that meaning to their audience.

Unfortunately, there isn't any hard and fast rule as to where that balance resides. It's always a judgment call. But calling people idiots because they don't share your perception is probably (just a wild guess) on the wrong side of the line.

First off, his audience is a pool of reporters, not the entire US.

Second, its not his responsibility to divine what his audience will or won't get. In fact, its 100% impossible to determine what an audience will and won't understand, unless you actually have mind powers.

His comment was 100% appropriate in the CONTEXT it was used, and there can't POSSIBLY BE anyone on EARTH OR ANY OTHER PLANET that could interpret the use of "tar baby" as anything other than "sticky situation".

I wonder if the English language has a way to discuss the set of associations implied by a word or phrase in addition to its literal meanings?

Like

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=connotation

con·no·ta·tion Audio pronunciation of "connotation" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-tshn)
n.

1. The act or process of connoting.
2.
1. An idea or meaning suggested by or associated with a word or thing: Hollywood holds connotations of romance and glittering success.
2. The set of associations implied by a word in addition to its literal meaning.
3. Logic. The set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term; intension.

No need for connotation where there is none, eh?

... MORE TAR BABY!

:rofl:

Ok, ok... bad BlooInBloo.... I'm sorry....