"Tar Baby" is quite common - especially in the govt realm:

Q: Today we are interviewing Ken Sander who works in the Office of the Actuary and who will be retiring next month in December, after how many years at SSA?

Sander: Thirty-two years.
......

Q: So that is Harry's explanation.

Sander: I think a more recent explanation is, since the time of the disinvestment of the trust funds, when was that? Back in the late 1980's when the government ground to a halt a couple of times and one thing or another, at one time Treasury did cash-in some trust fund assets in order to keep the government functioning. They got so much static on that from Congress that they would agree with Congress that Social Security is a "tar baby" to them and they want to sort of keep a nice distance away from it in terms of not rocking any boat unnecessarily.


Let's try an unclesam search on this (and we see Toni Morrison pop up as well in it)
http://www.google.com/unclesam?q=tar+baby&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

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I am not sure why some are so offended - perhaps because they want to be?

It is a well known term that has historical roots and has been used by many over time. Is it because we don't like snow job that we are so upset over it? Seems a bad idea, to me, to start kicking around something because we don't like the person who is using it.

We got enough reason to bitch about this administration - to me 'tar baby' is not one of them.

OH - LOOKIE here - a DEM using the term:
Representative SKOGLUND
James G. Skoglund
(D-St. George)

The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the Representative from St. George, Representative Skoglund.
Representative SKOGLUND: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of the House. As usual, I hope anyone will correct me on this, but I remember distinctly asking a member of the Education Department if it was necessary to include the term learning results in this bill. The reply was yes. In order to achieve this system of learning results, essential programs and services must be available in all schools. It does say right in the bill that in order to achieve learning results, essential programs and services must be available in all schools. This is a mechanism for funding learning results. Mr. Speaker, I urge people to answer my question. It seems that in order to implement this it would cost over $100 million more than what we are spending now. The department is moving ahead on faith that we will find some alternative to the property tax, but I think we are getting in meshed in another tar baby. I think this will go ahead. I think essential programs and services will go ahead, but we will be stuck with the same old funding formula. Thank you.


janus.state.me.us/house/history/120th/120hrec/20020325.doc

(thanks for the post)

government in almost entirely white community over 10 years ago. I was also real careful to say "penurious" rather than "niggardly" although that one never made much sense to me.

So what's your point?

If it was gore saying it and the right bitching we would defend it.

It is a historical term, used by many in a variety of ways. We should not stop saying something just because we don't like the person saying it.

Seems almost religious to me the fervor over some things...

One can BELIEVE it is a racist term - but that does not make it so. But feel free to have your own faith on it.

If Gore had used it, I wouldn't be defending him.

Secondly, Snow said it, and you're defending him. So much for the whole party thing.

Thirdly, yeah it's historical. So is blackface.

I'll agree with you on the religious fervor, the way people defend racist republicans...

The origin of the tar baby seems to lie in the capable hands of Uncle Remus; however, many historians actually trace the tar baby back at least 2500 years before the beloved folktale. The tar baby’s oral history is linked to the history of the rabbit trickster tales in which a rabbit or hare plays the trickster while he is often tricked by the Fox or Wolf. Specifically, the tar baby shows up either as a main character, central theme OR as part of a "stickfast" motif:

"From Bobtail to Brer Rabbit: Native American Influences upon Uncle Remus," an essay by Jay Hansford C. Vest, explores the origin of the trickster rabbit and his tar baby.

Aurelio Espinosa (folklorist) determines that "The Wonderful Tar Baby Story" may have its origins in India, he also thinks that it may have been shared , transported to Africa, and then to the Americas by the Spanish. A cycle of trickster tales in Africa were "associated with the spider, Anaanu."

In 1521, after the capture of a Siouan Indian near Winyaw Bay, South Carolina, Lucas Vazquez de Ayllon brought him back to Spain where he was interviewed by historian Peter Martyr. In Martyr’s De Orbe Novo, the author shares his interview during which the Indian relates a folktale of the "stickfast" motif.

As early as 1612, the idea of a "mightie great Hare" as the "chief god" of the Native Americans is introduced by William Strachey (The Historie of Travell into Virginia Britania).

In "My Mother’s Brother: Monacan Narratives of the Wolf from the Virginia Blue Ridge," Jay Hansford C. Vest shares the following tale, surely a predecessor of Uncle Remus’ "The Wonderful Tar Baby:"

"Bobtail stooped down and uncovered his friend, exclaiming ‘Go get him Piskey!’ Without hesitating Wolf leapt upon the Piskey (tar baby) slapping him with both front paws which stuck fast . . . they became tightly affixed to the Piskey; and in a last desperate act, Wolf bit the Piskey about its head. Now he was stuck fast . . ."

"The Pointing Man of the Trickster Cycle" of the Winnebago Indians (retold by Richard L. Dieterle) tells the tale of a man who is fooled by a tree stump with a branch that sticks out like a pointing finger. He believes it is a man who is trying to irritate him by not responding or showing due respect to him. For the Winnebago, the moral to this story becomes: "We never look before we set, we do everything without thinking, we think we know all about it." This is easily compared to the tar baby story since the tar baby is "naturally silent."

The most well-known of the trickster rabbit/tar baby tales is of course, Uncle Remus’ "The Wonderful Tar-Baby Story" (1881) which finds its oral history rooted deeply in the stories of slaves told to Joel Chandler Harris. He uses the myth, as many others do, to comment on life at the time.

http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/tar_baby.htm

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It CAN be used in a racist context - depends on how one 'believes' it is being used.

...is an ancient phoenician prayer.

"Tar baby" is an antiquated american vernacular term on par with "pickaninny," "mammy," and "jim crow." It refers to a young black child, which may look cute but is best avoided.

Yes, I know it was an Uncle Remus story, and was in a Disney movie. It doesn't matter.

As for "how one believes" it's used...

I have absolutely no doubt that Snow is a racist and used the term knowing full well it's a racist and did it as a joke. "Look at me," says Snow, "I'll use a racist term in a White House press conference and get away with it! Ain't I clever!"

You have 'no doubt' he is a racist, and this backs up your belief. To you it is a racist term, and if he does not comply with your wishes that it not be used he is a sinner.

Being a democrat is a belief, a faith in an ideal. It is not something that can be proven, but it is something we can preach to others and try to convert them to.

I don't believe it is a racist term because to me it is not. You believe otherwise.

Belief is a funny thing in how it fractures people who hold the same core ideals. We are both dems, but we have a different denomination. Still love ya for it though :)

Thanks for your input on this thread, it has been enlightening. We just disagree. I am looking at things outside the labels of faith we proscribe (dem/repug) to the person and focusing on the term in a general sense - you see it as me defending mr snow job on a different level. I don't like him, but I don't think his actions were racist (though I concede they may well have been intended as such, I cannot prove it).

Nigger, nigga, spade, coon, jigaboo, nigra

If I understand you correctly one can believe they are racist terms...but that doesn't make them so...

Well....I am not a violent person...I couldn't give a shit about dumbass people who can't think their way out of a box...but I will tell you this...If someone refers to me with these terms we will have a big fucking problem....

When you look at the pictures of the lynchings do you cringe....as a black American I do....because I believe this shit can still happen...especially in this * environment where all civility is thrown out the window...so yea this type of language does have a negative impact


Oh and by the way...that's the difference between Gore and the neocons he has the decency not to say stupid shit like Snow did....and I don't think we would defend him of saying something as derogotory as this..

Racism is not just historical it is a present day fact

on the radio and in rap music. Some people think they are ok, other's don't.

Black folk I used to work with at a manufacturing plant used those terms daily, and terms to refer to myself and other whites that some might take offense with.

Would I use them like that on a regular basis? No. But when I worked around such folk it would have been easy to do so - and not feel bad because I did.

One of my current engineers has used such terms to talk about himself - like 'man, I am one smooth nigga'. He likes such terms and feels comfortable with them.

Should I correct him? Tell him whitie says that such terms are bad for him and I know best?

it is a free country...and people have the right to say whatever they want...

Many blacks got angry with Bill Cosby when he pointed this out.....I make no execuses for rap....most of it isn't worth the discs they are on...but if you aren't black and have never really understood the black experience...then it is hard to explain to you why these terms are used within the black community....

It appears that you took the high road and didn't use the language...it's civility....

I just don't use those type terms to define anyone....oh wait I do "Neocon Racist Nazi Pigs" so I guess I am not perfect....

Tony Snow is in a high level government position that should involve civility and some decency....Tony Snow knew that the term was offensive and he used it to see what kind of response he would get...

Than shame on him. I am not privy as to his reasons though.

I know what you are saying though in some ways.

When the first black family moved into our hood (and I am lazy so always call it my hood as I don't want to spell it out) a friend of our family's moved out. Others were upset. My mom and her best friend baked them a cake and took it to the family - which pissed off a lot of folks here (there are about 100 homes in this small cove).

I was upset because my best friend had lived there and moved out (I was in 2nd grade I think) but I went down and became friends with their son.

All through school I saw evidence of racism - my class had one black kid in it (who was terribly abused by his dad) but we hung out and even partnered on some projects. I remember to this day being a little kid and getting ready to head home to columbus from byesville and hearing on the news that the klan was having a rally in downtown and mom saying not to worry they were just a bunch of idiots. They scared me and I was/is white.

Racism sucks - as does classism, etc and so on.

I just don't think this was a case of it.

the bottom line is they are destroying America....for all of us...

:(

It's good to have a contentious discussion every once in awhile..:thumbsup:

Good to discuss things, keeps them from rattling around my brain until they bore a hole out :)

nor should anyone. It is a reference to a "sticky situation", not a personal insult. Your being offended doesn't make it offensive. It has an appropriate context. Snow, whatever other faults he may have, used it in that context.

There are plenty of truly offensive things in the world. Be offended by one of those.

Why doesn't he know that that word offends me, whatever it means.

:sarcasm:

He should have known someone, somewhere, would be offended. A nation of 300 million plus and we are bound to piss off someone. Maybe I should trim my own vocabulary as well to a minimum...

Good post BTW!

Who would like to return us to the days of saying "nigger" and "tar baby" and all those other incredibly warm terms of endearment.

So as long as The Coveted Govt uses the offensive term, it's cool?

Nope, I can remember "That's awful WHITE of YOU" by some in the govt, but it was NOT universally accepted by the vast majority of us.

Hey, guess what Tony Snow, once again F'd up. :eyes:

It has been used by folks in govt - dem and rethug - for some time and I have never heard an uproar about it before now. Why now?? It is because we don't like the person saying it?

:bounce: