Eleven observations on Race and Ethnicity from a 'L' Liberal

(1) For most people, RACE IS REAL and PERMANENT . No matter how many biological studies are done to show the folly of rigid 'race' classification, people will hold on to the idea like nothing else BECAUSE IT IS PART OF ONE'S IDENTITY in a multi-'racial' society. Its apparent permanency contributes to one's identity (in that sense, 'race' is a harder label to change than sex, which is at least alterable in theory by surgical means). This leads credence to the idea that change, if any, must be brought about by active efforts of individuals (see (10)).

(2) Race, ethnicity and appearance are A MEANS OF FRIEND / FOE identification for most . Even the most liberal liberal walking into a supermarket immediately knows who's 'them' and who's 'us'. It may be subconscious, and followed by remorse a moment later, but it's there. You might disagree vehemently, but MOST likely your choice of friends, partners, and neighborhoods was based, at least in part, on race / ethnicity.

(3) A racial hierarchy denies the rights of some, and, JUST AS IMPORTANTLY, confers certain privileges to others . The majority of liberals will agree (to some extent) with the former, but utterly deny the latter.

(4) Every human being has an answer to the question "Who are your people?" or, at least they know who aren't 'their' people.

(5) TRIBALISM is a direct consequence of the eons-old idea of strength in numbers prevailing over everything else. YOU AND I LOOK ALIKE, SO LET'S STICK TOGETHER AND BOTH OUR BLOODLINES HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL. It will take millenia of modernity to fight this instinct.

(6) HISTORY is experienced differently by different people. Hence, naive entreaties 'to forget the past and start afresh' are likely to have quite the opposite, unintended effect.

(7) PERCEIVED COMMONALITY (race) ALWAYS beats MEASURABLE COMMONALITY (economics / class). The examples are too numerous to mention.

(8) AVOWED RACIALISTS are an insignificant threat compared to the supposedly 'non-racist'. This will raise hackles, but historically far, far more harm has been done by the 'non-racist' majority by subtle means / silence / collusion than any bunch of Skinheads.

(9) WORDS MATTER. In dialogs on race / immigration, what is hinted at or barely spoken of may be the most important thing. Watch out for the code words 'flood', 'invasion', 'taking-over', 'stealing'.
And yes, tar-baby.

(10) ULTRA-NATIONALISM is the bright, shiny uniform hiding the stinking corpse of racism.

(11) What good are you if you are not a race traitor? For starters, you'd have to accept points (1), (2), (3) and (6). Not easy, but possible. Also, every time you defy a stereotype, you weaken the Beast. People around you laughing at a N***er joke? Don't tell them how wrong it is because they don't care . Instead say, "What's with all the thieving White Christians and their corporate scams these days?" If they object, you can always say "Oh, don't be so PC" :evilgrin:


:) :)
Entanglement

PS: Some ideas in this post were influenced by the writings of Tim Wise and Noel Ignatiev, among others.

People have got to accept certain realities, no matter how hard they are for one's mind to accept, before racism can truly be tackled.

:hi:

:hi:

This is an excellent post. But, how people perceive reality from different racial perspectives is so profound, that you cannot even apply these generalizations across racial lines.

One observation that is missing from your list, which has been observed almost exclusively by people of color about some people of color, is the idea of racial alienation. In other words, your post suggests that each person sees himself as a member of his own group, which is the "good" or "friend" group. Writers as diverse as Franz Fanon, Malcolm X, Steve Biko, Kenneth Clark, Mohatma Ghandi, and Peri Tomas have shown that the real horror of a fully erected racist system is that the oppressed or colonized actually identifies more with the oppressor group than with his own group. This directly contradicts one of the "lessons" of the OP.

Kenneth Clark demonstrated this in psychological studies which became an important basis for the landmark desegregation case, Brown v. Board of Education. Clark asked black children in the segregated south to choose between a white doll and a black doll, while asking, which doll is pretty or which doll is nice. The black children chose the white dolls and explained that the white dolls were pretty or nice.

Because white people generally try to understand racism by projecting their own psychological state onto people of color -- essentially imagining their white selves in, for example, a black skin and black social circumstances -- they find the behavior or reactions of people of color inexplicable. This is because they do not imagine the internal consciousness of a person shaped by racism.

To a certain extent, the original post takes this perspective -- of a universalized "I" projected into different racial circumstances.

This is why I think white people find it difficult to understand why some of the greatest intellectuals of color as well as political leaders have focused on altering the internal consciousness of people of color as a necessary prerequisite for changing their social, political or economic circumstances.

:hi: HI HAMDEN! :loveya:

How have you been? It's been a long time since I've run across you on these boards.

How's your sister? Hope all is well with both of you!

Thank you :hi:

I'm american indian, and my field is American Indian Studies, and social work. Assimiliation, and colonization has done its handy work, and it cannot be undone. Nor, should it fully be undone. In order to make it in todays society, we as american indians have to realize that there are some traits/lessons to be learned, in order to function in the main stream society. BUT...Many american indians fully grasped onto what the "main stream society aka the oppressors ways" so fully, its amazing, that there are is any culture left, of the American Indians.

Language, and a slew of other things have been literally wiped out, literally. There are still a lot of indians, who can speak their language, and the fight to preserve those cultural aspects are in full swing, but compared to how many spoke their native tongue, prior contact? Its not even close. But, your post, has hit the nail on the head, and in my experience, this is probably one of the most major issues, to overcome.

I have come across american indians, who don't even know, what has been done to them, or their ancestors, and it amazes me when I see other indians cheer for the cowboys in western movies, or cheer for the Dallas Cowboys...it just plan makes no sense. Its a task, to just show/prove to some indians, that in fact, some of the things they do, are WHITE.

I get a big kick out of indians, who are so...LOUD about how indian they are, but act, and behave in the opposite grain. During one of my classes at Haskell Indian Nations Univesity, this big AIM guy, was spouting off this hate america/white crap, and i was sitting their sizing this guy up. Nike shoes, hmm, 80 bucks easy, dallas cowboy hat, 20 bucks, easy, gold chain around his neck, 100 bucks, easy, his clothes, abercrombie/finch, i have no idea, but i know that shit is expensive...can you see the oxymoron of this?

My first question, to this guy, was "If you proclaim all this proud to be indian shit, why are you wearing our conqueror's clothes? Why are you contributing to what, has destroyed native americans?" The guy was pissed...and lo and behold, the first thing he attacks me with, is my skin color, cause i'm not as dark as other indians...

The class was a good one, the AIM guy got hammered by a few other students, who actually lived the life, of an american indian. But, by and large, the class looked up to this guy...what a mess, i say. I have no problem, if this AIM guy actually did something for indian country, but he didn't. I won't name names, but he doesn' speak his language, he doesn't participate in NAC, or any of his cultural dances, art, he doesn't even pow-wow. As a matter of fact, he was raised by an upper tier white family, who adopted him, and just recently found his indian heritage, and is nothing, to me, at leats, but a fake indian, who beats the drum, but doesn't do anything to help....

Now, I dont' want to soudn like i'm attacking, the white culture, its okay to wear clothes, to spend your money on whatever, but when you start spouting stuff off, you better live the message you are trying to get across, at least with me you do. I have seen to much in indian country to believe that all Indians, are trying to do good for their own, because of asshats like this AIM guy. I have read/discussed with other AIM memebers, who I know are genuine, but the fake ones make me so upset.

Now, back to assimliation, and the thought, that accepting some of it is vital. We live in the white mans/corporatte world, we need to learn the ways of that culture in order to survive, and some indians disagree, but I don't, on that subject. On matters of spirituality, dancing, artwork, and the other traits of indian culture, we can KEEP THAT and should strive to keep it, but many indians don't. The same line of thought, can be seen in other cultures as well. With African Americans, why are they dressing/acting like gangsters, acting like its part of who they are? There roots come from different tribes in Africa, but I see very little of african americans keep that aspect of their culture alive.

I have seen a few blacks, who discover their roots in africa, but not many, and its weird, that not more are trying...damn, there culture in many ways are STILL IN TACT, and still growing. With american indians, we dont' hve that luxury, since so much has been thrown to the way side. Its amazing,that there are so many resources for other cultures to learn their roots, and yet, those people don't research them(i'm not saying all, but some)...if your norwegian, norway is still in existance, the language is in full swing, the dishes, dances, and spirituality of their culture is still there...but you catch my drift(i hope).

I'm done ranting, i'm probably preaching to the choir...but in vein with your post...I was a in the same boat when i was growing up. I would watch john wayne movies, and other westerns, and I would always cheer for the troops, to wipe out the indian threat, and i never gave it another thought, until high school(thank god my us history teacher was honest, he was awesome!), when i started learning/understand/questioning our countries history...adn that vein of thought, follows with me to this day.

Going to school at Haskell Indian Nations University was a godsend. I learned so much there...mainstream public education, is probably the biggest enemy of truth, and reality..but like the saying goes, the history is written by the victors. It reminds me, of what my old us history teacher said..."notice class, that in this book, the american indian war/with the us, only takes up half a page. Now, realize that american indians fought long and hard, and for decades, yet they got half a page of history, and look at viet nam, war lasted, 12 yrs give or take, and there is 100 pages of history on it...and i ask, think, think think..."....thats a paraphrase of course....

On edit:Vine Deloria's writing, on this subject are very good. IF you are interested, i recommend reading all, of his writings, he is a very...down to earth man, and his perspective on a good range of things, are in my opinion, accurate

:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

GREAT POST!!!!

it helps, to unleash every now and then...I do enjoy, discussions like this, trading ideas, and POV's...

What Entanglement has expressed is at the root of the "English Only Amendment" nonsense, 2 shot on the border in 24 hours, the invasion of Iraq, the sisasters in Haiti and NOLA, the invisibility of Afghanistan and the unabated evisceration of American society...

petersond said...."I have seen a few blacks, who discover their roots in africa, but not many, and its weird, that not more are trying...damn, there culture in many ways are STILL IN TACT, and still growing. With american indians, we dont' hve that luxury, since so much has been thrown to the way side. Its amazing,that there are so many resources for other cultures to learn their roots, and yet, those people don't research them(i'm not saying all, but some)...

Hi Petersond,

I am with you on most of what you say. However, I do have a bone to pick the above paragraph. You admit our roots come from different tribes in africa, but we have no idea which one. Most of us can't tell who our ancestors are beyond a few generations. Our African connections have been lost over the many years of slavery and discrimination.

and I will admit, up front, that I don't know much about the roots of African Americans. Any info, or thoughts on that subject, i'm all ears on, because I don't know "much" about it. Thanks for the thoughtful post, and keep up the good work...:) I don't know how you are going to find out which tribe, or sect that each african american comes from. The same ordeal happened with the native americans also, and they got put into tribes, that weren't exactly there's, example: Three brances of Cherokee indians, and it took a while, for all three brances to become reconginzed.

You got the cherokee's in North Carolina, who didn't go on the trail of tears. YOu have Cherokee Nation in Tahlequah Oklahoma, and you got the Keetowah Band of Cherokee in Kenwood Oklahoma, for a while, there was one recognized band, the ones that were forced on the trail, then the faction who stayed in NC, and then you have the Keetowah Band. I don't know, exactly how the Keetowah band fits in.

And on the other hand, you have indians, who are full blood, but not full blood in one tribe. My mother in law is full blooded keetowah band cherokee, her CDIB claims that, but she knows that she has two other tribes mixed in her...so, like you said, with the african american descendants, its going to be rough, to determine from which tribe, they originated from...:) But, thanks for pointing that out, and i know i have a lot to learn about AA history, and i'm all ears...:) :toast:

Deserves its own thread, really.


I don't mean to distract attention from you main point, but I was quite struck by this part -



Much was lost, as you say, but your ancestors (and the African Americans, and Australian Aborigines) fought so much harder to preserve their culture than did the many White peoples who came under British rule, by conquest or immigration. You put us all to shame, really.

Your average generic, de-contextualized, cookie-cutter, New-World Whitey has no idea about why his/her ancestors were forced to leave their homeland, or that not so long ago they had a language, traditions and culture very different to what we have now.

If taken to extremes, of course, it can rapidly become silly, but I think everyone should know something about their heritage and history.

In this, as many other things, Native peoples lead the way.

:toast:

I have seen a handful of white people, invest in their culture. My father is Dane, and he has researched our family roots in that regard, but we dont' practice, or do anything, danish. I am at fault, also to a degree, for not learning the Dane side of my ancestory(besides our family line), and i'm ashamed to admit that.

My friend, back in Alaska, started a viking reancment group, which is full of norwegian, and other scandianvians, and at first they just did historical fights. But the group matured, and they started making their own traditional leather works, pouches, pants, belts, and also fashioning armour, and learning how to cook the dishes, from their roots. The group, really took me by surprise, i was invited to join the group, but since i am stuck in SW Missouri, its hard to participate when im' a couple thousand miles away from home..:) But, this is a good example, of a white culture, rediscovering their roots, and sharing that knowledge with society. The group has performed for local schools, and events, and their reanctments, are great...:)

"Your average generic, de-contextualized, cookie-cutter, New-World Whitey has no idea about why his/her ancestors were forced to leave their homeland, or that not so long ago they had a language, traditions and culture very different to what we have now."

This is true, and this is what most RW i have come across, advocate. I have debated with RW's who want, me to accept the american mainstream culture, the baseball, hot dog, apple pie, flag waving routine, aka their version of their roots. The RW's i debate, don't seem to care about where they come from, but I hope, that all RW's aren't that way, but i'm not holding my breath on that one.

Thanks for the thoughtful respone...:) :toast:

You have the makings of a great academic paper there.

Kicked and recommended!!!

I've read Noel Ignatieff's "How the Irish Became White." "Whiteness" in the USA is not a matter of melanin deficiency.

:sarcasm:

The eternal call of the "good whites".

until the scales fall from folks' eyes on the racism issues, they'll NEVER be able to see the real dynamics of class clearly! ;-)

.... because they were BLACK... what an silly uninformed bunch, eh?

:sarcasm:

As far as I've been able to see "it's not about race, it's about class" is nothing more than a publically-palatable attempt by white folks to deny the existence of racism.

Among other things, it IS about race.

as that statement tries to make an either/or situation out of an extrordinarily complex issue. Race always trumps class.

Here's an inside joke fer ya:

What do you call a cardiologist in Mississippi?
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Just another nigger.


I've told that joke for decades. To date only ONE white person has gotten it with no explanation. I find tt's a great tool to get people to examine their assumptions.

I got it, and I'm white and not even from the US.

And yes, my mental image was as racist as the next guy's :(, although I fear not unrealistic.

That's a good one, I'll remember it!

to discuss a project. Over dinner I asked my colleagues (Brit/German) if they'd ever heard the term "tar baby." Neither had. I asked them what they thought it could mean, "Hä?" but first I had to pronounce it correctly, Teer, so R. would understand the word. During THAT process J. did a double-take :think: as R. blurted out, "OH NO!!! Please don't tell me that black children are referred to in such a manner!"

I told them of the Uncle Remus stories recited to me as a child. (No, they'd never heard of them). They both had very astute comments about references and symbols being co-opted. It was quite interesting.

Hell yeah, words matter.

Remember "finders" vs. "looters?"

Great post. K&R

Excellent post. You describe the problems with racism and why it is so prevalent very well.

You should be!

K&R

You are the recipient of the first and so far only kick and recommendation by yours truly.

I applaud your take, and rationale on the issue, and i agree with a LOT Of it...keep up the good work, do you mind, if i save your thread, and use it in other discussions? Thanks....

:)

you, you have hit a lot of different racial veins with this post, and did so, in such short/sweet/straight to the point, effectivness...:)
:toast: Nice, seeing discussion like this out there, racism, in all different forms, is still thriving well...

If you don't mind, I think I'll share this with some people. :)

:)

of Entanglement's offering would be that our fellow DUers, currently caught up in tar babies, Sambos and niggardlies, join us on this thread to discuss the REAL ISSUES that keep us divided and oppressed by a ruling class whose PUBLICLY STATED AIM is to REDUCE OUR PRESENCE on this planet.

HALLO??? IS ANYBODY HOME??? The lights are on... maybe they think we're muggers or sumpin...

Specifically, it's not true in the case where (as in many societies) the most favoured class is considerably the most numerous.

Being part of a society with a numerous underclass who can be exploited confers benefits as compared with a racially homogenous society (assuming you're not one of them...); having only a few people like that doesn't.

to look into the Hindu caste system as a starting point. It's about societal order and how Homo Sapiens achieve it. Sprinkle religion and money over the top for stability...

Because the population of most mainly-Hindu nations is divided up in such a way that there are sufficient members of most castes for membership of some of them to confer priviledges.


Incidentally, I didn't think there was any kind of racial division between the Hindu castes, although it's by no means a subject I'm an expert on.

Denying a group the right to speak their own language, marks the beginning of cultural anhilation.

Language = Culture

The future is multilingual.