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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:16 AM
Original message
what if WE got invaded?
I just had a real scarey thought. With the news we've been seeing lately with Chavez talking to Iran, Cuba, China, Russia and who knows who else, and all these people talking together, trying to make deals on arms, military jets, changing their oil currency to the Euro to drive down the Dollar .... what if they decided to try to take on the U.S.?

What if they decided to come oust the Shrub out of power? What if this criminal regime has actually put us at a higher risk of terrorism because of their actions. These other countries wouldn't even have to organize a military attack to carry it out. All it would take is activation of some of the sects and cells already in this country.

How would we, as Americans, react to this? Would we support another government waging a war on us to remove our leader from power, just like we did to Saddam? Would we fight against them? Would we just remain indifferent as long as it didn't affect us personally, such as no bombs blowing up in our city or state?

What if this did happen, then our liberators decided to stay? What then? Do we roll over and accept it? Do we rebel? Would we split into factions, some wanting them to stay, others wanting them gone? Would we break down into a civil war?

These thoughts just came to me as I sat here the last couple hours reading posts on a lot of these subjects. I read a LOT more than I post here, trying to educate myself on some of these subjects. I have relied on "street smarts" to get through life so far. Trust hunches, think from the gut as well as the brain. I know something went terribly wrong with our Great Nation in November 2000. TERRIBLY WRONG!

With our Military already over-stretched, our National Guards going to the border to help out Border Patrol since they are shorthanded because of funding cuts, a great American city still devastated, many cities I should say, all the scandal that this mis-administation is involved in,
stock markets falling like bricks, economy going downhill, rights violations and the raping of our treasury and resources, all thanks to this criminal regime, we are in peril as a Nation!

That being said, I think we need to take our Country back, right now, before someone else figures out that they can, and then actually try it.

We need a strong Democratic leadership right now. A leadership that is unafraid of this cabal. A leadership that will stand up for the rights of we the people, as well as for themselves. I've seen posts asking "who will you vote for in '08"?... we can't clearly answer that question, as we have no idea who is running yet.

I feel we can take back at least one House, hopefully both, this November. That needs to be the main focus right now. Not impeachment, investigations, nothing else right now except reclaiming power in the Government realm. When this happens, we need to choose and start grooming our candidate for '08. The chosen candidate will then have 2 years to work on his or her campaign platform and their plan for reviving and moving this Nation forward. Once the campaign season starts, this chosen candidate can have the Democratic Plan laid out to announce to the world.

Once we have the power, then and only then can we focus on impeachment and criminal prosecution of this regime. First though, we to unite in solidarity to our party and focus on the common men and women in this Country, as we are the backbone of this Great Nation.

Yes, I'm just a poor ole hippie, worked in construction all my life with nothing to show for it but debts and a 9 inch scar on my neck, but I know when something just doesn't smell right, and right now, THINGS STINK AROUND HERE!!
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ocean = buffer = no invading ship would survive to get to shore
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. ummm...
second paragraph:
What if they decided to come oust the Shrub out of power? What if this criminal regime has actually put us at a higher risk of terrorism because of their actions. These other countries wouldn't even have to organize a military attack to carry it out. All it would take is activation of some of the sects and cells already in this country.

read the whole thread instead of just the headline... thanks
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That makes no sense.
They can't take over America by a terrorist act.

We have too many NRA members and gangs.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Funny you should mention that
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
______________________________________

It wouldn't happen, since the system is so dependent on connectivity. Frankly, I have no doubt that if any other government were in our position, that they would do the same thing. We're not the first empire. Interesting question though, with many possible outcomes.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Draft for a New Declaration of Independence
The New Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of humanity requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all human beings are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Humans, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Moderation, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for trivial reasons; and accordingly all experience has shown, that humankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are tolerable, than to set themselves straight by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a seemingly endless succession of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them to mere subjects under totalitarian dictatorship, it is both their right and their duty, to overthrow such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these States; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present President of the United States and their Republican allies in Congress and the judiciary is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused to abide by the Rule of Law, as dictated by the Constitution of the United States, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has repeatedly attempted to override laws passed by States of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish their Constitutional rights , a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together Congress at unusual times, keeping them in session until the small hours of the morning, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He is currently blackmailing our elected Representatives repeatedly, for opposing with adult firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such intimidation tactics, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has threatened our Constitutional checks and balances by introducing to unsupecting American citizens electronic voting machines, programmed by convicted criminals with ties to his party, using software unavailable for the public to inspect for integrity and with no legal method to ensure an honest vote count, for the sole purpose of fraudulently frustrating the will of the people, thereby resulting in rigged elections which invariably favor him and allies in his party, and making it impossible for the people to vote out this tyrannical regime
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing to abide by the Rule of Law as dictated by the Constution for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has stacked the Courts with Judges who are of the same totalitarian mindset as the President, to overturn duly enacted Laws which have heretofore withstood Constitutional scrutiny, to exonerate arbitrarily his political allies, and to punish unjustly his political adversaries.

He has implemented clandestine, warantless domestic electronic surveillance programs, under the pretext of counterterrorism and national security, to intimidate American citizens from exercise their Rights under the Constitution of the United States.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He is currently seeking to allow Standing Armies among American citizens on American soil.
He has attempted to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has attempted to render the National Guard weak and inefficient by misusing it for purposes other than their original intent to protect their respective States.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For protecting them, by a show Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For attempting to immunize Corporations from the reach of the Rule of Law.
For imposing new stealth Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us overseas to nations known to practice Torture to be tried for pretended offenses
For abolishing the free System of Constitutional Law in neighboring States, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these States:
For using his hand-picked judges to nullify our Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For neutering our own State Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to overrule duly enacted State Laws in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us beneath the protection of the Rule of Law and waging War against us.
He has perjuriously led the nation into a War of Aggression against the sovereign nation of Iraq by presenting fraudulent and forged documents of the presence of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
He has, for the sole purpose of political revenge against a man who exposed his lies, endangered the security of the nation by unlawfully revealed the identity of his wife, a clandestine government operative:
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive overseas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and families, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has incited foreign and domestic Acts of Terrorism among us, and has endeavored to bring on inhabitants beyond our borders, the merciless Islamist Terrorists, whose known rule of warfare is a wanton and indiscrimate destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A President whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our fellow Americans. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their Congress to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of humankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United States are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Bush Regime, and that all political connection between them and the United States of America, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.




Please feel free to critique.
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I like it so far....
we have to make sure we keep:
the right to keep and bear arms
the right to free speech
the right to assemble in public
freedom of religion without persecution
the right to privacy

I'll think of more, but this is a good starting point, keep up the good work!
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defiant1 Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Lol @ your pic....
Bush looks like Howie Mandel in Little Monsters.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. The United States as a super power...
we're most likely on the way down. Eventually the Chinese will overtake us, probably in the not too distant future. What then? None of us can know that. I do know this, if we don't start electing people who genuinely care about this country and about the future of ALL Americans, there is no hope.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. Aside from the question of HOW we could be invaded.....
I would fight for the USA. Or provide an easy target while the "real" fighters got to work.

--even if the invaders wanted to overthrow Bush. I doubt many Iraqis liked Saddam. But they are fighting an occupying army.

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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. A couple of weeks of torpedoeing the oil tankers...
A couple of weeks of torpedoeing the oil tankers carrying in our
societal version of crack cocaine ought to soften us up pretty
well, don't you think?

Our military won't be able to respond when there's no gasoline,
diesel, or Jet-A.

Tesha
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Not likely
After the first confimred torpedo strike, all the tankers would be escorted by the USN. While ASW is a liitle luck with the science, no one does it better.

Once the shooting nation was indentified, things would get very nasty.


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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. When it's an extranational force, who will you bomb in retaliation? (NT)
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Operated by whom, SPECTRE?
Torpedoes can be launched by by submarines, surface ships and aircraft. Platforms that could launch them are expensive, esp submarines which take a large number of highly skilled to own and operate. Extranational(which is an odd way to describe mercs, terrorists or pirates) can not afford that kind of technology without help from a national government. More over, they also can not afford to be proficient with it.

To keep your scenario going, a threat would be identified such as a sub or subs torpedoing tankers. Escorts from multiple nations will form up, the subs identified, and destroyed. Which ever nation/group behind it will be gone after by the international community, not just the US. Aircraft or surface attacks would be even easier.

A campaign to blow up international shipping is best left to the James Bond movies.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. "It can't happen"
You know, this is the same argument that brought us 9/11.
It was inconceivable to the Bush administration that a
sufficiently-motivated group of folks could commandeer
four jet aircraft and turn them into flying bombs.

It's inconceivable to you that anyone could come up with
a few working torpedoes, even though we and "they" hurled
them around by the hundreds during World War II.

I guess I don't get it -- which part of the torpedo do you
figure is the high tech, hard part? The hydrogen peroxide?
The miniature steam turbine? The guidance gyros? (And are they
even needed to blow up a huge tanker that can't evade you?)
Certainly the warhead isn't the tough part, not with HE
going missing by the tons in Iraq.

And okay, let's say a torpedo can't be had. How about a missile?

How about a floating mine? ...A remote-controlled rowboat?

How about a Cessna 150 loaded with Semtex?

How about a bomb lobbed by a trebuchet?

If it ever comes down to it, the bad guys will figure out a way
to do this if they want to. And you and Condoleeza Rice will be
wondering "Golly, who'da thunk it??? Sinkin' our oil tankers!"

Ahh well...

Tesha
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Your original post postulated an ongoing series of attacks against oil
tankers, not a one off or single day/multiple or single attack scenario. I pointed out that the former is silly, but fully acknowledge the viability of the latter.

As for a home built torpedo, read up on all the issues they had in WWII getting them to run straight, at the correct depth, and explode when they should. Torpedoes are a sophisticated device. Better to buy old Soviet ones than to home brew, but then there are all the launch issues. If an water attack is what is wanted, its much easier to use a suicide speed boat packed with explosives. Not exactly stealthy but more reliable and effective.

Let me also correct your statement about flying aircraft into buildings being inconceivable. It has in fact considered in the engineering of certain structures for quite some time. Its been discussed in anti terrorism circles for years. Its been used in novels as well. It never has been inconceivable. The pros have known for years that it was possible, back to the early 70s. Perhaps that they pulled it off was the surprise.

As for how to take out a single ship, while trebuchet is always a sentimental favorite, its first shot accuracy is quite poor. Limpet mines ala the Rainbow Warrior would be my choice.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well, I guess I'll dance and throw flowers at my liberators...
Better start working on the ol' soft shoe and growing geraniums...
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. Or you can wait for the invasion
Once the government is overthrown, the occupying force can put John Kerry in as President. I mean, the consensus is that he won anyways.

Of course, Iran, Cuba, China, Russia just don't have a problem with the government of the United States, they have a problem with country of the United States. But you are correct, if you fear for your nation I would suggest spending less time plotting impeachment of your leaders and more time working to replace them at the ballot box.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. The moment any foreign power sets foot on the US in force,
The entire country will will be taken with nationalistic fury, and every cop, criminal, soldier, security officer, and citizen with a gun will come out shooting.

Only China has the sheer manpower to hold down the US. Any invading force would have to include them.

We would be a quagmire worse than 5 Vietnam's and Iraq's put together. We're not worth that kind of trouble to anyone.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. It would be Red Dawn
A really bad movie, but the independent resistance is more than credible. And like in the movie, the only thing that would work to control the populace would
be terror.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. All these nationalistic jerks would become quislings in a New York minute
Edited on Thu May-18-06 10:53 AM by LostinVA
Serioiusly...
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's true since they care only for power and not the country
or its people.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Bingo n/t
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. So true. n/t
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. According to the right, we have been invaded (from Mexico)
Isn't that the O'Reilly/Hannity/Lou Dobbs take on the whole illegal immigration thing, which has been going on a lot longer than the last couple of weeks.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I know and White Men are in danger etc.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's impossible
They can't project their forces.

End of story.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Iraqis are the model to follow in this case
Let the "liberators" exterminate the power structure, and then exterminate the "liberators." It'll be done at great cost but if our will is in it, it WILL be done.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since we spend more on the MILITARY than most of the planet
combined... I do not see an expiditionary force taking a beachead anytime soon.

They'd be much better off flying in, because as 9/11 *ahem* proved our civil air defense aint shit.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
27. Answer: Welcome the Canadian & Venezuelan liberators.
I'm just fantasizing again: no real solution in sight.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Handy phrase: "You're the Canadians, Ehh??" (NT)
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
31. A couple comments for you, too much for subject line.
1. Their actions have put us at a higher risk for terrorism. More people all over the world hate the USA than ever before and with a change: more now hate the USA people, not just the USA gvt.

2. Invading the USA is not needed. They do not need our physical territory, but financial power will rule us all. The dollar is dropping, the administration is running around attacking all over making more enemies, why would "they" need our physical land when they would have control over our finances, ability to have decent paying jobs, enough food, care, etc?

3. Mr.bush and his evil minions will stay in power as long as we, the people, let them and those who hate the USA are glad for this because Mr.bushetc will continue to make things worse, acting as recruiters for the anti-USA group. So why remove them?

What to do? I agree that getting control of at least 1 House is needed. It will be either that, or continued downward spiral until it gets bad enough and the revolution comes from within the USA. I don't see any outside cavalry riding in to save us. In the meantime, survival, education and encouraging people to register to vote and then vote. And praying that we can survive long enough to stop it.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
32. Nukes would fly. Rapture would ensue & we would all be in heaven.
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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Lord Binky Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
33. All an invader would need to do
Is make it looks like the invasion would help Bushco. Then the whole damn army would be on a drill somewhere far away.

If we do get invaded though, I hope no one fights back. The world has enough insurgents.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-19-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. How do you know the outrage is real and not faked?
After all, it's all being generated by political leaders. Therefore it's as likely to be a show as it might be legit - or not.
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