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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:17 PM
Original message
HELP!! Dem stand on immigration, would someone please tell me what's
Edited on Thu May-18-06 12:20 PM by OregonBlue
going on? I'm serious, I do not understand.

We are going to allow the tech and agri visas. In addition, we are going to issue 398,000 "guest worker" visas. There number of "guest worker" visas is slated to increase very year. Why, how does that help the American worker? Why are Dems supporting this?

Senate passed a bill yesterday to require prospective immigrants to have a company petition them for a green card, then passed an amendment today saying they can self-petition. Why do Dems support this?

Immigrants can't get Social Security benefits for payments made prior to becoming legal? Doesn't it stand to reason that if you were working here illegally, you should not get credit for that time? Why are Dems supporting this?

As part of the penalty, illegals will have to pay income taxes but NOT FICA. If they were working illegally and didn't pay FICA, why are they exempt while the rest of us had to pay. Won't this bankrupt Social Security even further?

The list just goes and on. I truly don't get it. How does this bill do ANYTHING to protect American working class people. Does anyone understand the thinking? Is there something I'm not getting?

Right now it appears that the Dems have been bought off by the corporations and I thought they were the ones who were supposed to protect American's little guy.

Please help cause tight now I'm getting angrier and angrier at my Dems and not feeling like I'm going to be voting for them in November.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dem or Repub, they're ALL politicians.
They're less interested in doing what's right than doing what's politically advantageous.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Agreed but, I do not understand how this is going to help them
politically. Do they somehow believe that there are enough Hispanics that will vote for them that it will negate the angry non-Hispanic vote? I'm serious, I'm ready to decide NOT TO VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT that goes on supporting this "guest worker" program. I simply cannot see how it is going to be good for the American laborer? Maybe I'm missing something?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You're not missing anything, they're hopelessly out of touch.
However, it IS our fault. We keep electing them to consecutive terms in Washington where they're increasingly insulated from the people they're supposed to be representing.

You're willing to break from the "ANY Dem" strategy to actually effect change? Good for you! I'm right there with ya.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It won't help them. They're throwing the party under the bus
And you won't get many reasoned responses to your questions above. Most Dems agree with you but hesitate to state it publicly - since it's not the "party platform."


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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. For once they're doing what's right rather than what's popular.
Although they're not courageous enough to push for amnesty.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I am not being facetious here. What do you mean what is right?
How is this "guest worker" program, on top of the agricultural visas and tech visas good for American workers? How is it right? By allowing an additional 398,000 "guest workers" the first year and then allowing progressively larger numbers every year, they are going to drive American laborers wages down further and further.

HOW IS THIS THE RIGHT THING? Please explain because I am truly stunned by this program.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. As I understand it the "guest workers" can work towards citizenship.
Which, if true, will allow them to unionize and force the capitalists to pay decent wages for all. A better way would be immediate amnesty.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I think you are wrong on this one. This is 398,000 guest workers
the first year, increasing yearly, in addition to the 10-20 million illegals already here and in addition to the agri and tech visas. Those already here are being granted amnesty. They of course are calling it a path to earned citizenship but in fact, it is amnesty. The guest worker program is ADDITION.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Excuse me but what drives wages down is the illegality of the
workers. Once they have papers they have to make minumum wage. Once they have papers, they probably will unite together like they did in the protest marches and demand living minimum wages. You wait and see.

I was reading about the Great Depression where workers would work for $1 a day because jobs were so scarce and there was no minimum wage laws. We don't have a shortage of service jobs in this country and once the workers in these jobs are legitimate then they will be able to bargain for better wages.

The Farm Workers formed a union and the Hotel Workers have formed a union. One thing that makes the Farm Workers ineffective in many ways is because the employers threaten the illegals with no work if they join the union. When they become legal they won't be afraid to stand up and fight for better wages.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Fine. They're already granting amnesty to the 10-20 million here.
They are also keeping the agri and tech visas. Why are they adding 398,000 guest worker visas and growing it every year? Why did they today vote down the amendment passed yesterday that said that anyone (not already in the country illegally who is already going to be granted amnesty) applying for a green card has to have an employer sponsorship and make it so they can self-sponsor? How is that helping American workers, whether they are illegals already here who are now going to be legals or American citizens already. this is a major give-away to corporations. They are adding and adding hundreds of thousans of "guest workers" every year. That will only DEPRESS wages.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Do you have any studies to back what you say?
I'm reading one now that seems to disprove what you say. I haven't finished it though and will post what I learn in the future. I think it's time for all workers to band together to form a grass roots movement to change our labor laws that favor the corporations to one that favors the workers. To do this you have to band together. Adding workers doesn't depress wages, it only increases unemployment among those workers who probably will go elsewhere if they can't find work. Laws and unions are what keeps wages up.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I admit I'm no labor genius but, there are 5 jobs, there are 10
employees willing to do those jobs. If 5 of the workers will do the job for $10 an hour and 5 will do the job for $5 an hour, who do you hire?

I didn't understand the part about adding workers only increases unemployment among workers who will go elsewhere if they can't find work. Where will they go? Isn't increasing unemployment just as significant and doesn't it follow as an extension that if there are lots of unemployed people, they will be willing to work for less?

Just asking cause, I'm totally mistified by the Dem position.
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Drum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Their stand? Standing By. nt
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. the Democrats are pandering to "future" votes of the Hispanics
I believe they have lost all sense and reason.......and this is why many of us are in disagreement with our party at this time..........they are NOT representing our will......they are doing as they damn well please.
and as in many other cases....they don't care how many e-mails..letters or phone calls one makes........they are doing to defend the "illegals"...and thats their stance.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. The RNC thanks you!
If this single issue, which is easily rectified once repukes are voted out of office,
causes you not to vote on Nov. 7th, then there's nothing anyone on this board can really
say to convince you, is there?

That being said, I understand that there are millions of single-issue
voters out there, but it's difficult for me to understand where they're coming from.

If you're one of them (single-issue voter), and immigration is your issue, maybe
you could give us some background on how you came to this conclusion,
rather than asking us to explain the Dem
immigration plan to you.

I'm off to pop some corn now.



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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. the poster has a right to express
his/her concerns.........it is an issue........we would like to know who our party is really representing here......they are complaining about security....but don't want a fence......they complain about the budget.....but don't seem to care that the states are caring the burden of health care.schools and other social programs for these illegals........some senators don't seem to understand the word"illegal"...........and thats mt opinion.......if I vote Democrat or Independent.that is also mt choice........and will vote for the person who shares my views on not just this one issue.......but on the overall problems of our country today..........I say country before party.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Stop being snippy. I am asking for an honest answer about what
the Dem plan is. Why are these 398,000 guest workers being proposed. I understand the agricultural visas. I don't think we need the tech visas because I know there are a lot of unemployed tech people who would love those jobs but I could let that one go but, Why these guest workers? Grant amnesty to those that are here. Enforce the laws against employers, provide better border screening but again, why the guest worker program? How does it help American workers?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I'm a "multiple-issue" voter. A lot of Dems still don't deserve my support
It has less to do with being a "single-issue" voter than being thoroughly displeased at the general direction many Dems have gone.

Some of my "multiple issues":

1) Immigration

2) Iraq War support

3) Defecit spending

4) GLBT rights

5) Healthcare

6) Balls


I understand the "always support the Dem" strategy, I just think it's going to be our downfall.

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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Agreed. It's not just immigration. There have been so many votes
I'm not happy about but, it seems they have a chance on this bill to correct a lot of the things that are wrong with the legislation and a lot of the things that Dems and Republicans agree on and they are just voting them down one after another. I have never voted Republican and have voted every year for the last 35 years. I'm just starting to ask myself how in touch the Dems are with the American people.

They sit there in their ivory towers, not having to work for a living (how many days are they actually in session this year?) and there seems to be a real disconnect with the average American. I'm starting to get worried.

There are Washington insiders on this board, will ONE of them please answer the questions for me HOW DOES THIS HELP THE AMERICAN WORKER AND HOW CAN IT POSSIBLY HELP THE PARTY POLITICALLY?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. A controversial idea:
Vote for the candidate that represents your views and don't offer any support other than your vote to candidates who DON'T.

Where that's left me is not giving support to a lot of Dems (but they'll get my vote on the "lesser of the two evils" criterion). In local races, I vote for the CANDIDATE, not the party. I voted for the Republican candidate for Mayor in my city because he was the better leader, IMO.


I believe this is the only way we have any hope of getting our Dem "leaders" to represent us again...hit 'em in the pocketbook.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why do you hate Bill Gates?
:sarcasm: :hi:


<emphasis mine>
For Gates, A Visa Charge
Sunday, March 19, 2006; Page B07

When the Senate comes back to work next week, it is scheduled to take up the issue of immigration. And that is what brought Bill Gates to Washington for a rare visit last week.

The Microsoft billionaire does not love this capital, but he decided to add his personal voice to his Washington office's lobbying effort to expand the number of foreign-born computer scientists allowed to work in this country under a special program known as H-1B visas.

In an interview sandwiched between his meetings on Capitol Hill, Gates told me the "high-skills immigration issue is by far the number one thing" on the Washington agenda for Microsoft and for the electronics industry generally. "This is gigantic for us."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/17/AR2006031701798.html
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Because I can!
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Here's one Dem Senator who gets it...

DOBBS: Senator Byron Dorgan is one of the few Democrats who oppose a guest worker program and immigration reform legislation before the Senate. The senator says it's a sellout to corporations that want cheap labor. He has written an amendment to block any guest worker program at all. Senator Dorgan joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.

Senator, thanks for being here. I think most of us were taken by that spectacle of watching the Republican leadership, the Democratic leadership, before cameras today hailing this breakthrough. You're unimpressed?

SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Well, I'm not impressed. I mean, look, this is the corporate strategy in this country now and Congress seems to be embracing it. The corporate strategy is export good American jobs and then import cheap labor. That might be good corporate strategy, but in my judgment, it's not good for the American worker.

There's all this discussion about immigration and immigrants. There's very little discussion about the American worker. In my judgment, they also have a very big stake in these decisions that are being made here in the Capitol and there's very little consideration given to the American worker.

DOBBS: I have been saying for some time that the American working man and woman, the middle class is the least represented group in all of Washington. It sounds like you do agree.

DORGAN: I sure agree, absolutely. I mean, this so-called globalized economy, you know, there's this export of American jobs wholesale to China and Indonesia and Bangladesh, and now we hear the president and we hear leaders of the Congress say, well, you can't get Americans to do these jobs, so we need to import cheap labor.

The fact is, there is a price at which Americans would do these jobs but this Congress has not increased the minimum wage for nine years. Why? Because they want cheap labor that bottom for corporate decision makers, and so that's what is happening.

We're keeping American workers down, low wages, losing retirement benefits, losing healthcare benefits. That is not a route, in my judgment, to economic expansion in this country for all Americans.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/06/ldt.01.html
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yah, I heard him this morning. That was the first that I realized that
Dems were SUPPORTING the 398,000 and growing ADDITIONAL guest worker program. He gets it. Why don't they? I really would like a straight answer here. No one seems to be able to say how this will help the country, how this will help the party. So what's up? Is is some secret stratey? Did they do polling on this one and discover it was a winner? Or are they simply responding to their corporate doners? I just don't get it!
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. "responding to their corporate donors"
That, plus bad advice from overpaid consultants.

And now both parties and this mis-administration want this whole thing to go away before the midterms.

Idiots.
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bluedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. about that Social Security Benefits...for illegals......
they just killed a bill in the senate on that

the bill read as follows



To reduce document fraud, prevent identity theft, and preserve the integrity of the Social Security system, by ensuring that persons who receive an adjustment of status under this bill are not able to receive Social Security benefits as a result of unlawful activity.


it was killed.................

A MOTION TO TABLE, if adopted, permanently kills the pending matter. It also ends any further debate.


***********so whats going to happen now is that illegals probably will be able to collect what they paid in when they were ILLEGAL.................






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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Have they all lost their collective minds? Not their money or their
social security since they have those cushy retirement packages. I'm really disgusted.
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:00 PM
Original message
You have a right to be concerned and
it seems confusing to many of us. Time after time, there has been amnesty, but the problem has never been realistically addressed. Our border states have suffered paying for the residual effects of illegal immigration. I would think that if severe employer penalties had occurred all along, work would not be as easy to find for illegals. Most employers will choose cheap labor over union or decently paid workers if possible. Another desirable lure is that children born here are automatically citizens. The whole issue has been ignored for far too long but knowing our politicians, they will do what is expedient for their careers.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. Again, how is this expedient for their careers? If people like me who
have been voting Dem for 35 years are considering not voting, how can that help them. It's not just the Dems either. There are as many if not more Repugs that are pissed. I am baffled.
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. I don't know how this will turn out
Yes the repugs don't seem to like the guest worker part, but they are big on protecting the border. They might give in to one thing to get another. The thing is, it will appear that something is being accomplished - they feel this in itself will ultimately resonate with the public. At any rate, the bottom line is winning the Hispanic vote. Even though we probably won't like the finished legislation, we should still vote for the party that represents the majority of your views. In the "old days" I used to think my vote didn't matter. After seeing what the present administration has done, that thought will never again cross my mind.
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OregonBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I read somewhere, I think here at DU that the Hispanic vote is just
as divided on this as everyone else. Those that came legally are pissed at this amnesty and those that are here illegally, don't vote! Unless we are now advocating that we find a way to allow the illegals to vote too!
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I wish I could figure these politicians out too.
For some reason * feels that this legislation has the middle ground appeal - therefore enough Dems will jump on board to pass it. As a result something will be done about the current immigration situation, there will be a plan for the future, the border will be protected, the repug base will be mollified and everyone can breathe a huge sigh of relief. The repugs will then get the current Hispanic vote and future votes too. The wonderful world of planet D.C.- I guess they are the only ones that "get it." As usual, it won't make much sense to you and me.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Dems in office DO NOT care about the working class or the middle class
Edited on Thu May-18-06 01:01 PM by TheGoldenRule
and certainly not about the poor.

We are facing a class war that's been cleverly twisted into one that's only about race which it is NOT. The "stand" that Congress has taken is NOT a stand at all. Just another example of how we are nothing more than peons to both sides of the same coin. :puke:

This may be crude, but, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Dems and Rethugs are telling the poor, the working and the middle class citizens to "bend over". As in, we've been totally screwed and Congress could give a damn. :grr:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. You are right and it's time to start replacing the DINOs with
real Democrats who work for the working class.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-18-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
34. Like Nixon and the equal opportunity
employment and busing issues. Just throw out the things that people are for or against with an eye to the RW side then watch them tear each other to pieces and not solve the main problem.

The problem is twofold. Millions of Canadians are not swimming the Niagara river to steal our lumber-jacking jobs. Things that would make the Mexicans prosper independently in their own nation would be better than maintaining or ruthlessly cutting their dependence on exporting slave labor to the US. A central element in that, the manipulative businessmen, are also problem two. Those particular,few and easily accessible individuals who hire illegals and profit from cheap labor to the expense of everyone else. These "illegal citizens" are THE problem. They create, sustain and profit from the illegal alien enterprise. Worrying about anything else is so blatantly hopeless and destructive is managing the suckers(troublesome politicians included), not managing the problem at all on any level.
The issue pyrotechnics of well wishing Dems in Congress is wearisome and sad, but a defense against much worse from the other side.

Yet they can't get back to the critical real point. This is true in almost all other crucial areas where people are being punished, the perps rewarded and the system destroyed so that this can happen more..
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