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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 11:52 PM
Original message
Salon Interviews Truthout Re: Partial Apology Over Rove Article
Edited on Sat May-20-06 11:53 PM by kpete
Salon Interviews Truthout Re: Partial Apology Over Rove Article

Tim Grieves at Salon does an excellent job today interviewing Marc Ash at Truthout about why he only issued a partial apology for Jason Leopold's article last Saturday stating sources had told him Rove had been indicted.



So is Truthout saying that Jason Leopold's reporting was wrong? We put that question to Ash this morning, and his answer seemed to be a pretty unequivocal no. Although Rove's lawyer and his spokesman have both said that Leopold's story was false, Ash said that Truthout still believes that Patrick Fitzgerald, Karl Rove and Rove lawyer Robert Luskin participated in a 15-hour plea-negotiation session at Patton Boggs last Friday; that Fitzgerald gave Rove's lawyers a copy of an indictment charging Rove with perjury and lying to investigators; and that Fitzgerald told Rove's lawyers that their client had 24 hours -- or 24 business hours -- to get his affairs in order.

So why apologize for the story? Leopold's story quoted "sources close to the case" who predicted an indictment announcement last week, and Ash told us this morning that Truthout "hoped and felt strongly" that Fitzgerald would announce Rove's indictment on Friday. That it didn't happen was a cause for concern, Ash said.

In addition, Ash said that he's uncertain about some of the events leading up to and following the meeting that supposedly happened last Friday at Patton Boggs. Ash said he isn't sure now when the grand jury voted to indict Rove, although he said he remains confident that it did so before last Friday. He said that he isn't sure what's going on now to warrant keeping the alleged indictment under wraps, although he suggested that it must mean that Rove's team is cooperating with Fitzgerald somehow.

Finally, Ash said that "there are people whose life was made inconvenient by our story," and that "not all of them are Karl Rove or people beholden to Karl Rove." Who are they? "I can't tell you any more than that," Ash said. Is one of them Leopold? "You're making my life complicated now," Ash said.


more at:
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/05/20/truthout/index.html
via:
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014898.html
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mortlefaucheur Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. hoo boy...
:popcorn: :beer:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. LOL! My sentiments, exactly! Welcome to DU!!!
:popcorn:
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very interesting! I can't believe they are still standing by Leopold's
story, without major good reasons to do so. I wish they had asked about Leopold's promise to out sources. Was that mentioned at all?

:kick: & R!
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. "we're going to look stupider and stupider" - Mark Ash
Is that like "Dumber and Dumberer?"

:P
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's like a complete lack of credibility! Hi Demobabe! You are the one
Edited on Sun May-21-06 12:43 AM by WiseButAngrySara
who posted that courageous, challenging post the other day, questioning the veracity of Leopold's story! It was very good. I heard that you were later really blasted with negative responses! I remember reading it when you first posted, and not sticking around for the comments, but it was reposted as a good example on one of the many Leopold/Rove threads.

:hi:
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deansyawp Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. And Tim Grieve Concludes With
Those were his words, not ours.

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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Where is Will Pitt? Anyone heard from him? One week ago today... n/t
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ash is still holding on. *sigh*
We're Truthoutted. We've been Leo-poled. It's time to let this whole episode die a peaceful death. At least until Pitt returns to apologize.

:boring: :hangover:
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. LOL! I feel more like I've been Truth-notted and Leo-pulled. n/t
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Obamarama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Maddy, don't you mean "partially" apologize?
It boggles the mind that Ash did an interview in which he defends his decision to "partially apologize." I swear to the gods, this "partial apology" tact sounds like something that would issue forth from McClellan's mouth.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
62. And those of us who expressed legitimate
skepticism and who were viciously pounced on as a result are owed a very strong apology, as far as I'm concerned. Especially OldLeftieLawyer and DancingBear, who really took a lot of unjustified guff.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm told there is a Futurama quote that applies here.
To the effect that right now, Truthout is really grasping at straws and sounds just a small step up from the poorly xeroxed communist newsletters on college campuses saying our evil capitalist society was about to fall anyday.

...I'm sorry, that really is what it sounds like in this interview. They're hoping for a miracle, and I'd say Karl Rove turning state's witness against the White House is pretty much the very definition of a miracle. A lot of people were worried Truthout would discredit new media because of the Leopold story. This Ash interview discredits it a-plenty all by itself.

It may be harsh, but if the shoe fits...
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The media has already discredited TruthOut sadly enough, in that it
was pulled from Google news and some other internet news source (Yahoo?) It is really a shame.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. This week or before?
Anyway, TruthOut didn't need to provide its detractors with free Tomahawk missiles aimed right at it.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. "there are people whose life was made inconvenient by our story,"
I wonder who those people are. Any guesses?
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I wondered the same. Clearly, it had a major impact on DUers (!) but
I'me sure he's not talking about thousands of disappointed readers. Pitt would make sense if Ash knew of the bruhaha (sp?) that went on here at DU and he knew Pitt was upset by it. Maybe Wilson? His sources? It would be wonderful if he meant Rove!
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Hmmm... I don't know. Do you?
:shrug:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. The supporters of the story?
Their life seems inconvenienced by being made to look like fools by a pack of liars and gullibles.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. I don't know. I get the feeling he's talking about other people.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. :-)
I know...I was just being catty.

:toast:
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Semblance Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. Should be a more public response
If Leopold, Pitt and Ash still stand by the story, they should say so publicly. Instead, only Ash has spoken, and he only released a non-response response. They are trying to take the heat off by hiding.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Hiding?
From who?
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Hmm. I don't know. Do you?
Loving all these questions now. They are perfectly appropriate to ask. Many more should have been asked (and answered) when the article first appeared on DU.

:)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I didn't need to ask questions when the article first appeared.
I'm waiting on the guy in charge, not some internet blog.
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Karmakaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Its funny how you don't seem to care...
about this at all, yet have been sure to post on every thread there has been in the last few days. Just to remind us you don't care I suppose.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. I don't care about getting an apology.
I wasn't one of the DUers to get my hopes up believing TO/Leopold regarding Rove. What I do care about is the outcome of Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald.

I do hope that you continue to post on these topics (except the whining) though. Just more :popcorn: for me. It's very entertaining. :hi:
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OrangeCountyDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. What A Sad Fucking Pathetic Country This Is
Can't they just indict the mother fucker, and keep him from screwing this country up anymore than it already is?

Are we so stupid, and is our system so fouled up, that this guy can't be taken down somehow, by someone? Here we are hoping for Fitz, and even he can't get libby on trial until January 2007. What's it going to be for rove, if he's even ever indicted? 2009? For christ's sake, please somebody help this god-damn country of ours?

God Bless & HELP America!
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. One of three things is happening, IMO: one bad, two very, very good.
Edited on Sun May-21-06 03:00 AM by speedoo
The bad: Rove and his lawyers are successfully fighting the indictments. I don't see how this could be happening, but it's one way to explain the delay.

The first good: Rove is cooperating under a plea arrangement with Fitz. This is more likely than the above.

The second good (and the most likely): Rove declined the plea deal after being advised of the range of indictments that Fitz is going after and Fitz is now going after all possible indictments against Rove. This could take some time.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'm Rooting For #2
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. Patience, my friend.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
22. Fitz said something interesting after Libby
I can't find the exact quote but the gist was:

We are investigating an underlying crime as well as any wrongdoings committed against the investigation itself (ie, lies to cover up the underlying crime). As long as we take action against the wrongdoers, it doesn't matter what actual statute is used to effect that.

That's an interesting legal theory, and I'm not sure I buy it, but I think it says a lot about Fitz. He doesn't care whether he gets Rove (and Cheney?) for the actual outing for for lying to him when he was trying to get them. As long as he gets them. And I doubt he cares how long it takes, even if it means sitting on an indictment for weeks to make KR sweat.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
28. Truthout and Will Pitt should..
.. hold their media organization and journalists to the same standard that they would hold anyone's.

I don't so much expect an apology as a statement of future standards and expectations, meaning that
they would meet criteria involving honesty, fairness, and certainly boldness and braveness in getting
the real truth out there.

Sue
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
29. This Seems Logical To Me. Rove Was Indicted And It Is Remaining Under Seal
The coward is probably cooperating somehow now to make sure it stays under seal. Pig boy probably took fitzy up on an offer within the 24 hours and maybe we'll never know that he had been indicted since if he cooperates enough it will stay under seal. Fitz is very good with maintaining people's privacy until they are officially indicted and without chance for reprieve.

I think Jason's article is still accurate, but fear we risk never knowing it for certain as long as that indictment remains sealed. I still stand with them on this and have no reason to believe the essence of the story is inaccurate.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Hope springs eternal, eh?
I can see how it would be hard for you to back down now after your behavior last week.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. My Behavior Was Fine. Though I Found Others To Be Disgraceful
Edited on Sun May-21-06 01:29 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
To each their own though.

And this isn't about hope, it is about reality.

So I would ask that instead of being needlessly attacking and provocative, could you provide thoughtful reasons why the concept of the indictment being under seal with the possibility of Rove cooperating is outside of the realm of reality? Could you respond to my post and offer opinion on why it is not feasible? Then maybe we could actually have a relevant discussion rather than non-productive rhetoric. :hi:
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. This doesn't make sense to me though. If the THREAT of a possible
indictment was being held over Rove, then that would be significant leverage and incentive for him to cooperate.

If the leverage was merely that an indictment that had already happened, and would eventually, inevitably, become public, would be kept secret for a while, I don't see why that would represent any kind of leverage unless there was some mechanism for the indictment to be rescinded in some way. Is that even possible?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Since He Is The Prosecutor, He Can Choose To Not Move Forward On The
indictments. In this case the risk of indictment may not have been enough. Maybe the jury needed to actually vote to prove the charges Fitzy was warning rove about were real and not just a threat. Who knows.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. How can you indict someone and not move on the charges? Does that
ever happen? :shrug: Wouldn't that suggest the charges were without merit?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. and Jesus walked on water...
Faith belongs in the pulpit, not in journalism.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. That Was Just A Title Of A Post. Where's The Substance?
Edited on Sun May-21-06 01:41 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
Why is it walking on water? Why is it not feasible? Why could the indictment not be under seal? Why is this such a stretch? Can you discuss your opposition to these points or is the quick pot-shot without any substance all I can expect?

:hi:
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. Let me interpret what you said.
"I'm an idiot for what I said last week, but now I'm trying to cover my ass with idiotic reasoning in order to cover up my idiocy."

That about it?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. What An Asinine Comment That Is. Like I Said To The Others, Where's Your
substance? Are you only capable of empty attack that benefits no one? Can you even rationalize that absurd statement above? Can you give any intellecutally viable opinion on why my post is not something you agree with? Can you offer anything of substance at all? If so, please do. It would be appreciated.

:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Again You Avoid The Topic And Go For A Substanceless Smear Instead.
I also stand by that post 100%. Will Pitt, Jason and Truthout have been true patriots for our cause time and time again. We have relied much upon them and they have very rarely let us down. There are millions of reasons to trust them and almost no reasons not to. That post was just about giving them the benefit of the doubt, which they wholeheartedly deserve. Has nothing to do with kool aid or walking in lockstep, so undermining it in that fashion is just false on its face.

But enough about the topic you used to avoid the real one. If all you have in your arsenal is worthless attack then so be it. But I'd rather you address the context of my post itself and provide well thought out reasons as to why you disagree with it. If you can't do so, then that's fine, but doesn't say much about your intentions for replying to begin with in my opinion.

:hi:
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. I thought my intentions were quite clear.
It was to point out your idiocy. So at least you can be clear on that.

Good day to you also.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Yet You Pointed Out Nothing. That's Why I'm Asking For Substance.
You still haven't provided any. All you've done is post baseless empty attacks with nothing behind them.

Can you provide anything of substance to support WHY it is idiocy or why what I described in my original post is not feasable? You haven't done such so far, and I'm wondering if there is anything more behind your position than childish ill will.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Childish ill will works for me if it works for you.
Apparently your blinders are attached very securely so far be it from me to try to loosen them and let you see the world. Just keep in mind, with blinders on, you don't want to stray too far from the flock.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. If You Aren't Going To Respond With Substance Or An Answer To The Question
posed, than why do you insist on replying at all?

Answer the question or stop wasting my time please.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Oh, I have, but the blinders you wear are in the way.
But do you want to know what bothers me most about this? Is that someone with a Queensryche song as their username is exhibiting the exact qualities that they abhor and write against in so many of their songs - blind trust, group-think, believing everything that is written. You do them a disservice.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. You Keep Attacking And Smearing Yet Refuse To Offer Substance To Back Up
those attacks.

You say all these things. But please try and go deeper than empty attack and provide any reasoning whatsoever to your claims.

Here's some starting points for you:

Why is it not feasible the indictment is under seal?

Why is it not possible that their sources are valid?

Where have I shown an attitude of group think?

Where have I claimed everything is written?

Where have I shown the trust to be blind and not earned?

Why is it outside the realm of possibility that there can be truth to the indictment story and much more going on behind the scenes than we yet know?

Can you answer any of these? Do you have any substance to your claims? Are you replying for any other reason than just to attack a DU'er and cause trouble? If so, then what are those reasons?

That would be a good place to start. I'm disappointed we have such a long sub thread and you have been incapable thus far to provide any context to your argument.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. See message #61
Edited on Sun May-21-06 03:36 PM by Balbus
Oh, wait, you can't!! They deleted it because they had that idiotic post of yours where you said the stupid shit like "I blindly and obediently trust Jason and Will's article no matter what..." blah, blah, blah. I hope you sent the Mod a thank you - the less people that see that stupid thing is better for you.

on edit: Do you just copy and paste your subject lines?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Didn't Think So, But Thanks For Playin.
It always cracks me up when someone can only post an attack but not only has no rhyme or reason to it, but the inability to back it up.

If you post a strong opinion, it would be prevelant to at least be able to offer any reasoning for it.

Bye now.

:hi:
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. You're right, you didn't think. But hopefully you'll start.
Oh, well, I was hoping to get to a thousand posts on this sub-thread alone.

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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Well, OMC, I'm glad you're calming down a little.
I was worried about you there for a sec.

The problem is that you are using logic like conspiracy theorists use. I don't think you want to do that.

YOU are the one arguing belief in something for which Truthout has provided no good evidence. The burden of proof is on the people who claim Rove has been indicted, not the ones who are reasonably annoyed that nothing has happened and the story appears to have shifted.

It is silly for you to ask someone to prove that your evidence-free speculations are NOT true. That's like saying, "Prove they DIDN'T hide Flight 77 and all the people on it!"

People can adopt a wait and see attitude if they want, but you sure can't blame them for getting a little cranky when Truthout is publishing stories based on "belief" and offering "half apologies."
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Yet Another Misguided Post. I Asked For No Proof Of Anything.
I asked for the poster to simply provide any substance to his attack.

If someone's going to post something calling somebody stupid, an idiot, or ignorant because of something they posted, shouldn't they at least be expected to say why? Or at least provide anything of substance in opposition to the post to show why they hold the position that they do?

I don't believe that to be an unreasonable request, do you? It wasn't proof I was asking for, so I'm not sure where you grabbed that from. I merely challenged the poster to explain why they disagreed and what their beliefs were in context to issue. They simply couldn't do so. All they could do was attack and smear, and I find that to be quite sad. Disagreeing is fine, attacking is not. But to disagree, one should generally have an alternate opinion or at the least have the ability to explain themselves and where they're coming from. To attack, one merely needs to just spout some childish taunt without having to provide anything of substance. There is definitely a difference.

Peace.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Hey, I was just teasing.
No malice here. I'm just not sure what kind of substance you are looking for. I'll tell you exactly why people don't believe. It's very simple: There hasn't been any evidence yet.

You can't in good conscience ask for any more "substance" than that. That's a pretty good reason to be frustrated, in my book.

The ones saying Rove has been indicted are the ONLY ones who need to provide any substance at this point.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. No Malice, Just Factual Discussion.
And you say "I'll tell you exactly why people don't believe. It's very simple: There hasn't been any evidence yet. ", but that had nothing to do with what I was asking. You say I don't need more substance than that, yet that wasn't the substance I was looking for. If you are going to enter the middle of a sub thread to comment, please first get familiar with what the purpose of the sub thread had been.

The purpose was not to ask why doesn't the poster believe, as I agree with you that generally the reason for disbelief would be an obvious conclusion of there having not yet been evidence. But that wasn't my question to the poster. See, the poster replied to an innocent post of mine with nothing more than an immature empty attack. I questioned the poster's motives to inquire if he/she didn't have an actual opinion on my post, as to why what I said wasn't potentially feasible. I wanted to see if there was an opinion behind the attack or if it had just been an attack for the purpose of stirring up trouble.

So I wasn't asking the poster why they didn't believe the indictment occurred, I was asking why the concept of the indictment being under seal and the possibility that rove cut a last minute deal wasn't feasible. The poster not only couldn't answer that simple question, but as can be seen only was able to follow with further immature empty attacks.

So yes, many don't believe he was indicted due to lack of evidence. But if you're going to attack someone else for offering an alternate theory on how he could've been yet not yet publicly, a poster should be able to back up their attacks with reasons why the alternate scenario would not be feasible. Don't you agree?
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novalib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #29
80. I Agree With You
There is probably a lot that has been going on behind the scenes that we do not know about.

One thing is for sure, though -- Rove and all the rest of the Bush Cabal Regime will do WHATEVER they can to save Rove's sorry ass, and to discredit those who challenge them!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
30. Something is going on with Rove. He came out of his hole twice
Edited on Sun May-21-06 01:00 PM by KoKo01
last week. The first for a scheduled appearance at American Enterprise Institute where he looked pretty confident...even when David Corn questioned him about possible indictment...and then the next day or day after he went up to the Hill to meet with Repugs. (that meeting on the Hill might have been already scheduled or not) But, there was a clip of Rove looking very chipper waving off reporters. (we don't know if that was an old clip from their archives or a new one but there were reporters there he was waving to where again he looked pretty confident) Two appearances in the first days of a week he's supposed to be indicted where he's out there smiling like Tom DeLay's mug shot.

Something happened that made Leopold jump with the story....but was it disinformation or confusion by his sources as to what was going on.

I wouldn't put it past Rove to pull another "rabbit of memo's" out the hat to forestall Fitz once again. And if it's hundreds more e-mails, memo's or whatever it will take time for Fitz's team to go through and verify.

Truthout jumped the gun and that's maybe what Ash is sticking to. :shrug:
It was a terrible mistake in timing...but maybe they think if they give it a few more days they will still have a chance of getting some of it correct.

I still think it odd that Tweety was panting so heavily on Imus saying it would be a "busy Friday and weekend" and yet nothing happened. Last week was a very quiet week for the media. Tweety spent Wednesday & Thursday on Opus Dei..and fluff. Not that Tweety should be given any credence for anything...but he might have been hearing it from Schuster and others...that something was coming down.

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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
33. What about the outing of the sources?
Wasn't there something in one of the original posts on this that the sources were told that if the info was false, they would be outed?

How long will the wait and see approach hold when no new information is being reported?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. Bottom line: Rove was not be indicted and TruthOut should retract story
before it ends up being Ratherized and marginalized. If no indictment was returned, the story is dead wrong about that, and the rest is just speculation.

A full retraction should have been issued a week ago. A half-ass apology is a bad decision.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. The most disturbing thing to me...
is how some attack those journalists so viciously that are on "our" side, when they are trying to do their job, even if they did screw up on this story. Do they deserve any slack at all? Even the Washington Times would get more sympathy. :)
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. kentuck, do you think Leopold should get a "pass" because he is
supposedly on "our side" if he screwed this up?
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Some think he should be crucified.
I'm just saying.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. No, I don't think he should get a pass...
But I don't think he should necessarily be crucified either, just because he thought his "sources" were good. I do think he had some sources. I don't think they were as reliable as he thought. But few news people that are aggressive do not mistakes. It was a mistake made, not to deceive, but in an attempt to enlighten the readers. Just my opinion. We should keep it in some type of perspective.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I don't think any mistake is acknowledged at this point-official position
seems to be that story was right, indictment happened on or before May 12, and what was unforseen was that it would remain secret so long for whatever, unknown, reason.

I don't want to crucify anyone whether they were right or wrong. But if a site and a reporter are trying to establish themselves as real journalistic entities, then getting a big story wrong inevitably has big negative consequences on that effort. I agree with that and think it's fair.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. You don't need a weatherman...
It's obvious at this point that they were wrong with their story. In the next week or two, we may find out that they were only wrong about the "date" of their story. Either way, I think it would be to their credit if they made a public statement about it. It was an honest mistake, in my opinion, by placing too much credibility on weak sources.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
50. Ash's latest update just posted:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Very interesting...
<snip>
"We suspect that the scope of Fitzgerald's investigation may have broadened - clearly to Cheney -"
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I like this quote:
"We know that we have not received a request for a retraction from anyone."

Btw, someone should start a new thread.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. "we have not received a request for a retraction"
...except from some DUers. ;)
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I find the stuff about Howard Kurtz to be interesting.
I too believe the Washington Post is going to be shilling for the criminals. The fact that Bob Woodward has stuck his nose into this is no coincidence either. The Washington Post is, without question, a criminal enterprise.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. That's one hell of a little read.
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Semblance Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Interesting
Well, it is an interesting post, but he says he believes (not knows) that the indictment is sealed. Here is what Christy Smith at FDL said today:

I talked a little bit about legal questions that I had on this in comments the other day, but I wanted to reiterate one in particular here: when you have a "sealed indictment," it is sealed — as in not publicly available — for a reason. We used them a lot in drug conspiracy cases, where you had evidence of lower level people but were still working the investigation up the chain, and you would indict a lower level dealer when you had evidence on them, seal the indictment so as not to tip off higher level dealer/distributors, and then unseal the entire batch of indictments if and when you completed the investigation or you had to make an arrest on someone you thought was going to flee the jurisdiction.

Once you talk about an indictment that is under seal with anyone, you break that seal and the information contained within the indictment can become public. Which, frankly, defeats the whole point of having a sealed indictment in the first place.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
75. I'm getting "Connection Refused" when I try to link the site.....
:shrug: Can someone post what was said or was it just a "non-denial denial" that was posted earlier today?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #50
81. not sure what he means by events not directly related to outing of Plame


"Further - and again this is "What We Believe" - Rove may be turning state's evidence. We suspect that the scope of Fitzgerald's investigation may have broadened - clearly to Cheney - and according to one "off the record source" to individuals and events not directly related to the outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame."

That sounds very dramatic, but what does it really mean? If he's saying that the investigation has broadened to cover lying about the Plame leak (either to the GJ or otherwise), that's hardly news since that's what led to the Libby indictment. If its meant to suggest that Fitz has broaadened the investigation to matters unrelated to the Plame leak -- well, he doesn't have the authority to do that. Fitz has been delegated "all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity" which has been explained as including the authority "to investigate and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, your investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses."

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/ag_letter_feburary_06_2004.pdf

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
83. self delete
Edited on Tue May-23-06 06:57 AM by onenote
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
59. Strange.
When I posted this at 2:43 yesterday afternoon in its own thread, it got locked right away.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1244933&mesg_id=1244933

I guess you're the official poster on the Truthout detail, kpete.

:toast:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
71. To be clear: I am NOT on the side of faith-based evidence-less belief...
but is something like the following possible?

Conjecture:
The investigation has uncovered hardcore evidence that the media has been operating in cahoots with gw's administration.


At some point, ya gotta say "what the hell?" - lol - let's just play the 100%-evidence-free conjecture game. Evidence: never had/showed it, never will.

Genius!
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-21-06 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
73. Stick a fork in it, Truthout is done.
:beer:
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
79. That is a smart move by Truthout, to cool down the story.

They got too ahead of the story, and became the story.

Those that say they will never believe Truthout are idiots.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
84. so many things in TO's latest update don't add up
For example, the claim now is that the indictment is sealed. Well, we'll know if that's the case if/when its unsealed, since the date stamped by the court on the indictment will be the date it was filed, not the date it was unsealed.

Also, if the indictment was in fact voted by the GJ and sealed by the court, then Fitz would've been acting improperly if he gave copies to Rove and/or his counsel. The point of a sealed indictment is secrecy. Giving it to Rove et al would allow them to see details that could then be psssed along to others. While Fitz might well disclose the fact of a sealed indictment to a target (and where is that target letter, BTW?), he would never give the actual document to the target until its unsealed.

There also is the claim made that the investigation has broadened beyond matters related to the Plame leak. But Fitz doesn't have authority to go beyond crimes related to the Plame link or to the investigation of that leak. If what TO is referring to is crimes such as perjury, obstruction of justice, etc. relating to the investigation..well, that's hardly a scoop since everyone on the planet knows (from the Libby indictment) that Fitz is investigating not only the leak itself but the cover-up/lies to the investigators.

All in all, just another piece of piss-poor reporting by TO, imho.

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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Truthout didn't "get ahead of the story"
They didn't speculate. They didn't predict. They didn't analyse some facts and come to a conclusion.

Truthout claimed they were talking about facts that had already occurred. They said Rove had 24 (business?) hours.

The story they printed was false.
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