Clearing US Customs/Immigration in other countries. WTF?

My husband and I just returned from a trip to Toronto, Canada and encountered something we've NEVER before experienced. It bothered us greatly.

We flew Air Canada and discovered after leaving the ticket counter at Toronto airport that we were required to fill out US Customs forms and present them to US Customs officials on CANADIAN SOIL! We have both travelled extensively and this was the first time we've encountered this. Usually the flight attendants on your return flight hand out the forms and you go through US Customs at the airport of your destination IN THE US. Has anybody else run into this practice in countries other than Canada?

Our concern, is of course, that if an American citizen gets detained by US officials in another country, what are your rights? How easy will it be for those officials to spirit you away and prevent access to an attorney? How would you possibly even be allowed to contact an attorney other than over the phone? Certainly no attorney is going to show up in Canada--and wouldn't have any legal rights to practice there anyway, would they?

We are really bothered by this. Does anyone know when this practice
began? Obviously, the government sold this idea on the basis of preventing terrorists or suspicious characters from getting on a plane or entering the U.S. We also think the gov't probably likes the idea because it would be much simpler for them to 'disappear' someone from outside the US than inside the US.

For any of you who are thinking of going to Canada as an escape from the US, I'd reconsider that idea. Looks like this new Canadian gov't is willing to cozy up to the current administration.

Thoughts?

And I had to go through US Customs and Homeland Security in the Bahamas. One of them even threatening to deny me entrance to the U.S. because I traveled to Cuba in the first place.

I laughed at her and called her bluff bullshit.

The security person who stopped us and told us we had to go back and fill out customs forms (the agents at ticket counter said nothing)got her nose all out of joint when I asked why. After we went to a little counter and stood in line to fill out forms then returned to give it to her, I asked her if she was happy. This was BEFORE you get to the line for the US Customs agent--who was also the most surly person I've ever encountered. Most agents at US airports are quite friendly.

Anyway, she didn't like me challenging her and I thought for a minute she was going to detain us and page a supervisor.

It is really apparent that people who want to push their authority are being hired to fill these jobs--Gestapo types.

You can't get any more Nazi than the word "Homeland Security".

I had to fill out one of those papers and I could easily have told them I had only visited the Bahamas on that one question where they ask if you have visited any other countries.

But lying to a federal agency is a more serious offense than traveling to Cuba, in my opinion, which is why I did not hesitate to write the truth. I was told that I would be receiving a letter in the mail informing me of what actions they plan to take against me.

I welcome the challenge because I was traveling with two other Americans, one who has a close friend who is a lawyer and is ready to defend us pro bono if it comes down to that.

Other than that, I had a blast in Cuba and will be writing about my experiences this week, once I get some photos processed.

interesting story, thanks for sharing it with us, and i look forward to seeing pics and reading more about your travels.

As an Anglo, and someone who never learned any other language other than English, and someone with no other connections, how difficult would it be for me travel alone to these countries do you think?

You should have little problem. Most Latin Americans are proud of their countries and appreciate any Anglo who shows respect for their culture.

Of course, like anywhere else, you need to have common sense and be streetwise because many in Cuba or any other Latin American country like to prey on tourists because they see them as walking dollar bill dispensers.

Cuba, I've noticed, is not as violent as say Mexico or Colombia. But they are very apt at talking tourists out of their money or overcharging.

In 1981 when I went to Montreal. I'm not sure how long this has been going on but it shocked me back in '81.

Cheers

This practice was in place long before 9/11 and the Bush administration. I lived in Canada for a number of years, and I suspect the reason for this practice is that there are flights from major Canadian cities (Toronto, Vancouver, etc.) to MANY US cities, including those with smaller airports that don't otherwise have a lot of international flights (i.e. Cleveland). I suspect that it makes sense from an economy of scale to process incoming passengers to the US in one place at the airport on the Canadian side (i.e. Toronto), rather than in a dozen small facilties at all the destination airports. Also, look at it from a Canadian perspective, if a Canadian or international traveller transiting through Canada has any problems or is going to be denied entry into the US, he/she doesn't have to go through the hassle of getting on the plane and making the return trip.

Another reason might be that Canada isn't really considered an "International" country in terms of how American airports are arranged - you don't go the International terminal to fly to Toronto, you get on a flight at the domestic counter of whatever airline you're going to fly, and incoming flights from Canada always debark at domestic gates. Whether this is at the behest of the airlines or the American government I don't know, but it makes things much easier on the US end for frequent travelers to Canada - it would really suck to have to clear international customs on the US end every time you returne from Canada.

Regarding the lawyer issue: I'm not positive but I was under the impression that via an agreement with Canada, after you cleared US customs in Canada you are considered to be on US soil, sort of like being in an embassy. So I assume you would have the same legal rights as in the US. Maybe someone can verify this...

Anyway, my point is that I strongly suspect this arrangement is for economic and convienence reasons only.

-SM

We haven't been to Canada since the trip to Montreal in 1995. I'm sure we cleared customs in the US--probably Chicago or Minneapolis or St. Louis given where we were living at the time.

Also, we've been in the Bahamas many times and never experienced clearing US customs there as posted by RaginginMiami. I think that's something new.

Our Raleigh airport is international--we have flown directly to Gatwick--as we did with our Toronto trip.

The other direct flights that we saw listed from our departure area were to Baltimore, Indiannapolis, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Cleveland. I'm sure those are all international airports, aren't they?

Maybe it's one of those "9/11 changed everything" situations. Have you been in the Bahamas since 9/11?

before 9-11, and the practice was in place then. (in 1999)

I haven't flown from Montreal to the US so I can't speak to the current situation at that airport. It may be restricted to only Toronto and Vancouver. Anyway, I still maintain that US airlines and/or the US government don't consider Canada an "International" destination due to the volume of cross-border airline traffic and for the sake of expediency do customs on the Canadian side. I'm not sure whether this is only at bigger Canadian airports where international passengers could be transiting into the US, or whether the same applies for a flight from, say, Regina, SK to Chicago O'Hare. (Actually this implies that all Canadian airports with direct flights to the US have US Customs officials...) The Canadian government doesn't object and for all I know they probably make some $$$ renting out airport space for our customs facilities.

Anyway, it's not a nefarious Bush administration plot, and its actually much more convenient for travellers to the US to pre-clear US customs so they can waltz off the plane and out of the airport without having to stand in line with the riff-raff at immigration on the US side.

-SM

If you're driving back home over the QEW the US check is on our side of the bridge.

They have had the same sort of thing in place at Shannon for at least 14 years.

It's bizarre, but it's been there for awhile.

I was coming back from Germany with a stopover in either Toronto or maybe Montreal...can't remember for sure. Shit, I wish I could remember better, but I am pretty sure it was late fall of 2001. It was after 9/11.

But they did US Customs in the Canadian airport. Then from there to Detroit or Chicago or wherever I came in I didn't have to go through it again.

:shrug:

I have cleared customs many times at Toronto.
It allows flights originating from Toronto to go to Non-International Airports in the US. Which quite a few of them do go to small airports without any customs facilities.

I thought this was the custom's clearing entry port so that passengers could contine to any destination in the continental US without further ado. Have we outsourced this too to Canada?

my car and trunk were searched by US customs agents but on the American side of the border.

is the airport where international flights coming to the US from Europe are diverted to when there is an incident that requires the removal of someone from the plane (usually a drunken Euro hooligan causing problems...) I think that Bangor is the first major airport that is encountered heading East on trans-Atlantic flights, so the miscreant is hauled off to the Penobscot County jail and the flight continues to its original US destination.

Air rage link

Edited for grammar

I don't believe it is setup to handle flights originating from elsewhere.
Just a convenience for all the Commuter Aircraft, so they don't have to stop at O'Hare or another major US airport on the way to their final destination.

I used to travel from Bradley (Hartford/Springfield) to Toroto and back several times a year. The alternate was to travel via Boston so you could clear customs at Logan on the way back into the US.

Also, among the other destinations in our immediate gate area, all were international airports:

Baltimore, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Indiannapolis.

So, my question continues to be, why does the US have customs agents based in another country?

as long as I can remember. What this prevents from happening is you fly into Canada from anywhere, then hop in the car (or hop a flight) back to the US. When you hit customs at the US border, you can very easily say: "I was in Canada for a week or 10 days" and there is no evidence to prove or disprove that as you never trip any systems indicating otherwise. Customs, as long as you look "normal", gives you a cursory look over and waves you on. Big time security hole.

traveled outside the U.S.? This has been going on for many years, since long before 9/11, and there's nothing sinister involved.

However, I will say that generally I find U.S. customs to be much less friendly and welcoming than that of a lot of other countries.

Panama, Belize, New Zealand, Great Britain, Germany, Austria, Italy, France, Martinique, St. Lucia, St. Croix, St. Thomas, (St. John), Bahamas, Cayman Islands, Turks & Caicos

I've come through customs in Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, St. Louis, NYC, DC (Dulles), Charlotte (NC) Raleigh (NC) Miami, Atlanta. The agent I encountered in this last trip to Toronto won hands down as the most rude.

was more about clearing customs in Canada than the rudeness (although you certainly mentioned that0 of the agent.

Having worked myself for ten years as an airline ticket agent at Washington National Airport, I know how incredibly stressful and difficult the job is, and while nothing ever really justifies being rude to passengers (clients, customers, etc.) you would be utterly astonished to learn how badly those people are often treated by the traveling public. And their treatment by airline management has done nothing but go downhill for years, starting long before 9/11.

It's always a shame when someone has a crappy experience and is treated rudely.

Personally, the times I've had the pre-clearance thing (which I think is what they actually all it) before getting on the flight back here, it's a good thing because it definitely saves time on arrival.

Of course, coming through airport security (I've made three domestic trips in the last month) always reminds me of traveling in the Soviet Block back in the 70's. I know then that I'm entering a police state.

Working in the USA (I'm British), I'd been sent to a customer in Toronto (with an American colleague travelling on his birth certificate and driving licence). Coming back to the USA, he gets waved straight through, while an immigration official decided she didn't like the look of my (perfectly valid) visa for working in the US, and started questioning me. After I'd had to list the computer languages that I used in my work (and I thought she was going to demand a sample program), she finally let me through - with just a couple of minutes to spare before they closed the flight. I wish they'd put up signs saying "warning: non-US or Canadian passengers will get delayed at immigration - allow 10 more minutes to be able to board your flight than everyone else".

you would see that customs is on the Bahamas side, not the US side. It's also the same for some other Caribbean countries.

It is not a bad thing, nor is it sinister or thought up by the Bush admin. It's been going on for a long time, and it actually makes travel quicker and easier for those flying into US cities.

The British use it for the Channel Tunnel, at railway stations in France and Belgium.

I did it. I kind of liked it, as it made my trip from baggage to car on the other end much quicker. (Oh, and when I went to the Bahamas four years ago, US Customs was located on the Bahamas side, as well!)

Hasn't this been the practice for friendly North American nations for years?

It's nothing new. I have heard other airports do it as well.