Have we let things go too far?...

Have we already let this crooked, illegitimate, fascist regime become too well entrenched to take our country back working WITHIN the system? If not how will we get it back?

to clean out loyal nests of vipers. A long, long road ahead.

I'm counting on the backlash being so severe as to rip their spines right out of thier bodies Just like in the AAAAHHHNOLD movie.

.....this time. If we can turn this around, and I'm not convinced just yet that we can, but IF we can turn this around I think it will take decades at the very least. There is just too much going on behind the scenes that we still don't know about.

before we can even dream of turning it around.

....fully intend to vote but a third stolen election wouldn't surprise me at all.

We were robbed and murdered in 2000:
RIP

We were robbed and murdered in 2002:



We were robbed in 2004:



Guess what they are going to try to do this year.

....flies when we're living through hell itself. Thank for the correction and thank you for that tribute to Wellstone.:loveya:

IF we have to vote on those with no paper receit....the country is GONE. As it stands now, IF we win in November (again, that will depend on the voting machines) it will take GENERATIONS to undo all the damage they have done. The ONLY WAY to get our country back is to LET THE PEOPLE VOTE. ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE. That's all it will take because the sheeple are waking up, finally.

it's not going to be as simple as that.

they will still control the media, the courts, and they'll always have a big money advantage (yes, dems are raising more; that just means the ultra-rich banana republicans will have to learn to dig deeper.)

i also doubt that we'll pull it off in 2006. we'll come close, but the banana republicans will mount enough of a campaign to hold congress, or at least the senate. it's 2008 that i expect to be the watershed election. i think then we will sweep the white house and both houses of congress, and in a fairly big way.

but even then, we'll have at best the clinton treatment -- the press will be finding scandals in every penny spent, lies in every statement, etc., forgetting what they tolerated when shrub was president....

...lose hope and no one should let these poll results discourage them from voting. If Neocons are going to steal elections again this November we need to force their hand, make them make mistakes, expose them. At the same time it seems clear that we also need to start serious organizing for a revolution of nonviolent noncooperation with this crooked, PNAC driven, Neocon regime.

i think not quite winning in 2006 (picking up seats but not control of either house) might be the best thing for us. not that i'd deliberately want to try to thread that needle. of course, i wouldn't mind a blow out election(!)

but the combination of bare minimum banana republican majorities in both houses and a very lame duck in the oval office will leave voters with no one to punish in 2008 except the banana republicans. this might lead to the once-in-a-lifetime kind of political sweep like fdr in 1932. of course, we have to hope the banana republicans don't bring on a depression first....

vote them out, we have to get them out, prosecuting reporters???? they are gathering up dissenters. We have to get these people out.

They will manipulate the vote during the dem primaries & put in a DLC candidate that they can work with - one who is pro-war & pro-corporate. This dem candidate will win the '08 selection. By having the dems win the presidency, it will quell the debate about electronic voting for many people -- people who do not realize that when they control the voting machines they control who the party candidates will be, too.

Holy shit, I've become so jaded.

...as so many American sheeple have chosen to do does not make you jaded, CrispyQGirl.

will run and they will outright steal it in 2008.

This is a tragedy, not a celebration.

Sadly, Mr_Jefferson_24 may be right. We may have no choice but to resort to this.

My biggest fear is that we won't.

~heavy heart

I am not suggesting this as a frat party, I am stating as the time has come and the link I provided demonstrates the spirit that the people at Tiananmen Square displayed prior to the massacre. I suggest we make the powers that be show their hand and if their solution is the same as KSU, I am old it is nothing to me. I am sure there are enough old timers here like me who are willing to stand their ground for our country, our cause and our freedom. Our leaders aren't, soon will come the time when we will have to decide to take democracy unto ourselves.

thanks for explaing that. ;)

Do we have enough people with spirit to fight this thing? I beleive that we will not take back our country without bloodshed & I wonder if Americans are up to the task.


Consent of the governed.

A part of me wonders if the system has been too badly infected to save. I think chances are that if the Democrats don't take back Congress in the next election, the corporate criminals will work overtime to make sure they get everything they want as quickly as possible, regardless of the health of our country.

I use the terms infected and health because I equate what has been going on as a type of a cancer spreading through our government and country as well. Let's face it, they have crippled our federal government's ability to function properly. FEMA is a lost cause. The Attorney General has managed to get rid of everyone there who had one ounce of integrity. The military is filled with Rummy clones, people more committed to spying on Americans than on taking care of our veterans. They have also committed to filling the federal judiciary with judges sympathetic to their beliefs. They have also been able to take over the mass news media, while trying to intimidate anyone who might actually have the guts to take them on by threatening them with federal prosecution. I could go on and on, but I'm not saying anything all of us here who care to find out the truth doesn't already know.

I just don't think it looks promising and I really can see very little that can be done in the short term to make a lot of the changes needed other than taking back Congress. And even then that will only slow the bleeding for a while until the next Presidential elections. If things can be corrected within the system, I think it will take a couple of decades at best.

...has been going on as a type of a cancer spreading through our government and country as well."

Well said, I couldn't agree more.

If your mother, wife, lover, daughter were told they had terminal cancer would your advice be that they just kill themselves?

No fucking way.

Someone else said it much better than I ever will about the slow death of one you love and how they should react to it. I say we should react the exact same way to the dying of American democracy.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

We go there to the National Mall and we cram it full of citizens.

...place that would make a repeat of Tiananmen difficult for BushCo's Mercenary Militia members to carry out. They are capable of anything.

No argument that this has been a drastic right wing swing but the momentum back has already begun. There is a fairly large fringe element that will stick it out with this administration regardless of how bad things become but a majority of the American people want to live in the center and they always eventually wake-up and find their senses. Talk to moderate Republicans, Independents, conservative Democrats, read the polls, it is already happening. We survived the Civil War, the Great Depression, WWII, Vietnam and Watergate and we will survive Iraq and King Chimpy. Keep the faith, keep working for the good guys and never give up.

the pendulum can't swing if it is artificially stopped by rigged voting ...

we need to stop all this surviving and start really living.

...let's define "we" loosely as any and all American citizens working toward removing the current crooked, illegitimate, PNAC driven, Neocon regime and restoring democracy to America.

The courts showed us what they were made of in 2000; have they gotten better?

The military has been under Rumsfeld for 6 years; what are the implications for
the senior officers and NCOs? What about the junior officers?

The executive branch has been deeply changed.

The legislative branch has been tainted by many scandals.

The public despairs of an honest vote.

The media is far from honest.

From what seed can renewal sprout? From whence will the honest,
dedicated stewards come? How will reform be accomplished?

I question whether I will live to see the infection cured. I
wonder if any of us will.

This alleged "democracy" has, for too long, beeng a de facto oligarchy. Run by the rich and influential.

Unfortunately, those in a position to actually change that fact are the very ones benefitting from the myth.

that information is much harder to suppress. I've been astounded at what people know and widespread information is. I get pessimistic because they've fired or forced out the base of our civil servants and replaced them with political hacks. There are too many who are bought and paid for and will work to coverup and enable the continuuation of the corruption. Still, I have hope that too many will just get fed up and the election will be so overwhelming to oust these crooks that they can't steal it.

The part of your question that media will finally report the news made me laugh out loud. We've lost the MSM. They are buying the only media that actually reported the news. Our only hope is the internet and alternative media.

ran the nation. We never have and never will. And while BushCo is the worst thing that could have happened in the 2000, he's simply stepped up to the plate following the rest of the Batting Order of evil, corrupt, morally bankrupt Rulers who have committed acts *at least* as evil and in mnay cases worse...

before an angry mob and frog marched straight to the Hague to stand trial for Crimes Against Humanity.

...call us the "pitchfork brigade?" Seems to me it was the pitchfork brigade in the Ukraine that took back their country from elements who stole a national election a couple years ago.

We need to kick the hell out of this poll & send the results AND comments to our dem leaders.

The results so far aren't exactly bursting with optimism. I was kind of hoping more of you were more hopeful.:(

;)


Please, share with us your hopes!!

...should be taken as a healthy sign, should it not? It doesn't have to mean loss of hope, and shouldn't. And I'll say it again, please, please don't anyone let these poll results discourage you from voting. Firstly, it may be possible that we can vote them out (we don't know for sure) and secondly, even if it isn't, to give up and not force them to steal it throws away our chance to catch and corner them in the act, and possibly expose them for all to see.

Take these poll results as just a check to see if we're generally on the same page in our perception of what we're up against. I'm encouraged that we seem to be.

And never, NEVER give up hope:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0521-20.htm

I don't need to believe in anything. If you can understand the phrase "hope springs eternal" then you understand that giving up is just a set up for being able to try again. Hope is at one bitter end and wishes and desires at the other of this thing some know as faith. None of which I have embraced since I came to understanding of only being able to to do best one can do is all we or anyone else can do. The rest is already accounted for :hi:

Because when this lunatic regime decides to use bunker buster nukes in Iran - The sane citizens will use pitchforks, torches, and whatever other forms of artillary at our disposal to depose the pretender.

I hope the honorable military does it for us, but w/o their support I will refer to the methods the forefathers of this country used.

Just sayin'....

"We" have fought it tooth and nail.

Has it gone too far? Yes. But it's not our fault. DU has never been passive.

...I wasn't pointing a finger of blame at anybody.

An earlier poster asked me to define "we," (see post #19).

Now I'll define "let" for the purposes of this poll to merely mean "failed to prevent," which is not to suggest meaningful efforts have not been made.

Let's face it, we're up against very powerful, ruthless people.

It was already too late on December 13th, 2000. *THE MINUTE*
that the Supreme Court decided the election, we all should
have risen up in revolt.

Tesha

A: "No, our judiciary and coming indictments will be their undoing" imo

The civilian politicians at the top will get their due. Their incompetence even as criminals is leading their undoing.

Recovering from the debt and entrenched bad world opinion will be more difficult than replacing all these crooks.

I am concerned that Cheney will throw a tantrum and do something crazy in Iran. But I don't think it likely.

FBI's Raid on Jefferson's Office: The Shot Heard 'Round the Hill
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000717.php

Save us before it's too late.

Nice to know that by a vast majority Democratic Underground thinks there is either definately or probably no hope. Kind of uplifting.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

At least then the cause would get some MSM coverage. Maybe Pitt will come back to compose our note for us?

There's hope in that we all seem to agree that there is no hope? What is that?

It's one thing to say that taking back America will be an uphill climb and another to say that it's too late. One leaves the door open, and the other doesn't.

Bryant

...if people believe it is realistic to think it can be done working WITHIN the system, not whether they think it can be done at all. Given what we've witnessed take place in this country since 2000, I think this is a fair and worthy poll question.

I've heard insanity described as "trying over and over to accomplish something using the same methodology over and over, which has been demonstrated over and over NOT to work." If people's perceptions about our chances of success in taking our country back working within the system are accurate, then these results would imply it's time to put our collective creativity to work and devise alternative methodologies that would amount to working technically outside the system. For example, tactics built around massive nonviolent, noncooperation. Gandhi, King and other great leaders from the past have demonstrated their effectiveness.

This is not to argue for the abandonment of everything we've been doing, only to be realistic and honest about what we're facing and what kinds of things might have a chance to work. Here's a good start:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0602-08.htm

I mean if you believe, for example, that Democrats are pretty much as bad as Republicans, well, this argument makes sense.

If you see little difference between a Clinton and a Bush, than I agree, the system will need to be torn up and replaced by something else.

But I don't happen to believe that. I believe that there is a world of difference between Democrats and Republicans, as I believe there is a world of difference between sanity and insanity.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

I must've missed something. How is this relevant?

For the record, I think there's a huge difference between Democrats and the Neocon controlled Republican party, also, I believe Clinton and Bush are nothing alike.

I still don't see what these questions have to do with this poll, or your contention that it is a "recipe for defeatism."

If there are two parties and one of them is much better than the other, than we just need to get the better party elected - there's no reason to move outside the system, just work the system better.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

...elections, which most DUers (including myself) participating in this poll don't seem to regard as a very safe assumption, I would be in complete agreement with you.

But that is still matter of smoothign out the kinks of this system, not tossing it for something new.

Bryant

...the changes that have taken place in our country, particularly our government, over the past five years, THAT'S your assessment---we have a few kinks in the system to smooth out?

I wonder if you'd be open to entertaining the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you might be understating the seriousness of the problems and the dangers, posed by the despots we're facing a wee little bit?

needing to start over (because the current situation is helpless) that would be more accurate.

I do like your condescending tone, though - that always helps me see the error of my ways.

Bryant

...a condescending tone with you, Bryant, but since you do, I'll apologize just the same. I'm sorry if that's the way any of my remarks came across.

It looks to me like you may be interpreting the idea of working outside the system as being the same as tearing down the system of government our founding fathers set up and starting over completely from scratch. That's not what anyone here is suggesting. It's about stepping outside our system that has been intentionally so crippled by BushCo, to restore what our founding fathers put in place. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

But since you feel you've apologized I guess I'll just accept your apology.

At any rate, I don't know if you want to tear down the system - I do know that the start of this conversation is that there is no hope to save the system from within. That leads us to extreme measures - you seem committed to non-violence, as your article suggests. I'm not going to speculate on the likelihood on those methods working, but I would place my money on Democrats winning back the Congress and the White House.

The problem is once you say that the system is done and cannot work, you automatically create the rationale not just for your peaceful non-violent general strikes and what not, but also for methods you would presumably be horrified.

That's not to say that I favor faith in the system because I don't want to see violence - I have faith in the system because I have faith in the system. It's not perfect, of course, and the Bush Adminsitration has done serious damage to it - but it can be repaired without moving outside of it.

Bryant

...to tear down the system."
---BushCo has already torn down the system, I only seek to restore it.

"I do know that the start of this conversation is that there is no hope to save the system from within."
---This is the consensus opinion of roughly 85% of your fellow DUers who participated in this poll.

"That leads us to extreme measures..."
---I think I'm safe in asserting that most people would not consider the methods and teachings of Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King to be extreme.

"The problem is once you say that the system is done and cannot work..."
---Actually, the problem is I never made this statement or anything like it, and your amazing leap to suggest peaceful methods of nonviolent, noncooperation somehow go hand-in-hand with, or lead to, violent revolution is unfounded.

"I have faith in the system because I have faith in the system."
---What system is that? BushCo has all but shredded our Constitution. You have faith in a system that's been disabled to the point of dysfunction.

"...it can be repaired without moving outside of it."
---This is your opinion. The vast majority of your fellow DUers, if these poll results are generally represetative of DU opinion at large, do not agree. That said, I most earnestly hope it is you who are correct on this score.

1. Explain to me the distinction between me saying "the system is done and cannot work" and you saying "BushCo has already torn down the system" and "BushCo has all but shredded our Constitution. You have faith in a system that's been disabled to the point of dysfunction." (just to pick two comments from your own reply).

2. How many people are going to have to participate in the teachings of Mahatama Gandhi or Martin Luther King for this form of change to be effective? How close are you to forming that critical mass?

Bryant

"The system is done and cannot work," is your statement and, like so much of what you put forth, doesn't really seem to make sense. The system is done? What is that supposed to mean? I would distinguish my statements you've cited from yours in that mine are, unlike yours, self explanatory.

For methods of nonviolent noncooperation to be effective there must be massive participation, and I would imagine I'm about as close to forming that critical mass of citizen participation as you are to ensuring we'll have free and fair elections in November.

"the system is done and cannot work?"

That's an odd admission to make, particularly since the statement is pretty easy to understand.

I mean that the system is done and cannot work - it has been so corrupted by Bush, that the system will have to be replaced - perhaps, as you say, by the original intent of the framers - a rebirth of what our nation should be.

I don't want to claim to have done a lot to ensure that we have free and fair elections (a donation here and there, and talking to my circle of friends) but I think getting reasonably free and fair elections is a much more doable option, compared to massive participation in nonviolent noncooperation.

...evolved into a very productive exchange, Bryant, so this will be my last response.

Thanks for your input and good luck to you.

entails. For example, I don't expect that every productive exchange ends with my victory.

But whatever. Good luck to you as well.

History does repeat itself.

determine if we can take back what is ours, or lose it forever. The election in November and whether or not journalists start getting arrested for whistle-blowing. If the election is stolen again and the press fears reprisals for printing the truth, we are.. well... fucked.

And IMO thatll be the only way to get ours back, sad to say.

That's the only way they can sustain their reign of corruption.

Things aren't hopeless now. They never are, and never were.

...things look so bad, so scary that we just stop fighting. We can't do that. Not an option.

and serve papers for laws broken