Is this a racist comment?

"a magnum beats four aces" Am being asked to counter another group, because apparently this is a racist comment. Anyone care to explain how?

I've never heard of any ethnicity called an ace

Edited: I guess it's better not to say which suit

what forum?

was being asked if I was willing to help counter another groups (supposedly an armed gay group that calls themselves "Pink Pistols"). Here is the email I was sent.

Press Release

Ft. Lauderdale anti-racist gay group concerned over gay vigilantes

OUTRAGE questions whether their recent statement had a racist double meaning

Fort Lauderdale, FL, May 24, 2004: OUTRAGE, a lesbian/gay/bi/transgender group in South Florida that recently formed to fight against racism, bigotry, war and economic injustice, became alarmed by the formation of an armed gay vigilante group in the area whose comments may lend themselves to racist interpretations. OUTRAGE was motivated to form after the murder of Martin Lee Anderson, an African American youth who was suffocated to death in a Florida boot camp.

"The members of OUTRAGE feel that hate crimes do need to be challenged and the most effective way to do that is to reach out to other affected groups to build alliances and not sow more divisions by buying guns and becoming suspicious of neighbors through vigilante groups," said John Peter Daly, a founding member of the group and long time gay activist.

"We have worked with Arab community leaders who have been in the forefront of condemning hate crimes against transgender people—now that is a strong, united message against hate. This group, the so-called Pink Pistols, has not condemned hate or violent attacks against other Florida communities who face racism and bigotry. A united voice is what stops bigotry, not more guns," Daly continued.

"The comment 'a magnum beats four aces' lends itself to racist interpretations. It's not a time to send ambiguous messages out to the community. It's a time to clearly take a stand against all forms of hate. The African American and Haitian communities in Broward County have not only been historic targets of hate, but they are now being displaced by gentrification in the Wilton Manors area, which is attracting many gay and lesbian residents. It's time to stop the gentrification and create affordable housing for all of Broward County's residents," explained Jim Sanders another founding member of OUTRAGE.

"We call on all people in South Florida to join with us to fight racism, sexism, l/g/b/t bigotry and war. A united community is a safe community. Join us in condemning the racist vigilantism that is popping its ugly head around the country," stated Sanders.

I've heard of aces and spades being used in a "racial" and yes derogatory context. One needs only to watch an old episode of All in the Family to hear it used in such a way. What color are aces? Given they are either red or black...think about it.

But it would probably be most helpful to ask those that sent you the e-mail, in what ways these terms can be derogatory, in their opinion.

While DU is a great resource, it is by no means a fantastic resource on what constitutes bigotry, racism, racial slurs,etc. Some may think it is, but those are generally the members with blinders on that are incapable of seeing beyond their own personal experiences.

Many statements have been made on these boards by members that could be deemed inappropriate and racist. But when members are called on that, members deny it and defend their statements because they aren't aware that what they have said could be deemed in such a way. Then they usually go through the song and dance of defending their statements despite people from the community telling them it is inappropriate, demeaning, offensive, etc. So--DU is not the best place to obtain such information, accurately.

If you had a donor star and could visit some of the sub-groups (racial equality, interracial relationships, african american forum, etc.)--then you would probably get a more reliable response.

Hope this helps! :hi:

Enough is enough!

racist remark.

..."A .44 magnum beats 4 aces."

In other words, if someone is either:

A) Cheating at cards and has produced a bogus hand of four aces, a cheater can't beat another player that is willing to draw a large gun against fraud.

B) If you happen to be insanely lucky, and actually draw four aces...if you're playing against someone who can't afford to lose, or won't lose, and is willing to threaten to kill you to keep you from winning...well, all the luck in the world won't allow you to win against lethal force.

Well put out, and completely correct.

I have never heard of a magnum being the "gun of choice" of any race but white. Dirty Harry and all.

It's cheating, it's murder, but it's not racist!

My stepdad works with an East Asian (or Indian? I can't remember) immigrant and they got to discussing racism and derogatory speech at work. They went online and found a site devoted to detailing all manner of discriminatory words and phrases and together they found many things they'd never heard of before.

I'm sorry, but anyone getting worked up over some comment about a gun and a deck of cards needs to be put out of their misery for the good of the planet and the sake of the Human gene pool. Christ, the things people piss themselves over... :eyes:

someone was thinking of spades. That might be racist. Magnum? Aces? I would not know where that idea could have come from.

doesn't mean they may not be hurtful or derogatory to someone else. Just something to consider, before ejecting people from the human gene pool. ;)

Something that may piss you off may be silly or not relevant to me--but no less hurtful to you.

Part of being progressive is taking the time to "understand" what may be symbols of intolerance to others. ...Again, merely something to think about, or not...your choice.

...a phalic symbol and a deck of cards is... well, a deck of cards. Sometimes a cake is just a cake, and an expression is an expression, not some horrific affront to someone's herritage. Even Google can't find mention of the expression in a racist context. It being a poker expression is all Google and Answers.com can come up with. Methinks anyone crying, "Racist!" over the expression doth protest too much. :shrug:

Well, that's very telling... :eyes:

While google and answers.com are not the definitive resources of racial slurs or symbols of hatred, it's interesting what one can find when they know how to look for things, and what to look for.

www.rsbd.org

Page down to "ace of spades"...Yes, something on a deck of cards--is used as a racial slur. :wow:

Edited to add: analyzing what are considered to be racial slurs or offensive to some races and cultures requires the ability of one to know something about the culture. One must also know of and how stereotypes of said culture are applied by other cultures. If you don't know such things, chances are you wouldn't get how something could be considered offensive in certain contexts. It's ok not to know. It's not ok to assume that because it isn't easily found on the internet it can't exist.

Brief example of another inanimate object that carries great meaning to some: A swastika was a symbol of something holy for one culture, and it had a different name. For the Jewish people it is a symbol of hatred, from the days of the Holocaust, a symbol used by Hitler to destroy.

Why do you need to be so dismissive of what should or should not be offensive to anyone? What makes you an authority on racial slurs and who is entitled to get upset about what?

The four aces must, by definition, be of at least two different
colors (unless you're planning on facing that "Magnum" or
"Smith and Wesson" proposed in the original posting).

Tesha

in the same sentence, as an African American, I get the picture.

We are well aware of the colors of Aces because we can be skilled card players.
And, we are well aware of what a MAGNUM is capable of doing!
We get the picture. We are not stuck on stupid!

I have never heard the expression but when I read the excuses on this board for why it is NOT a racist comment, it is even more racist!


Those same people would attempt to say that George Bush did not mean anything at all by it when he "innocently" said something about it being nice to "hang" Dr. King's portrait.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that his words would paint exactly the picture he wanted to paint by saying that - his bigot voters would get the picture and

African Americans would sure get the picture ---and we kept it and when ROVE/DIEBOLD allowed our votes to count, we voted our hearts against his EVIL ways!

In 1963, Dr. King said, "Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...The chain of evil-hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars-must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the abyss of annihilation."

In 1967, he said, "man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." We must emulate Dr. King's non-violent activism to end world hunger, poverty and oppression that are root causes of mortal combat."


I will keep saying it every time a White person tries to tell me what IS RACIST.... Until you have walked in the shoes of my ancestors, and you would never want to do that, no person can define RACIST for me!

It is an insult of the highest order.

And I am usually good at spotting subtle racism.....

So all aces of any suit are black? I guess if I were true to my race and a good card player I would know the answer. ;-)

I don't know.... an insult doesn't seem to be too effective if you have to explain to me why I should be insulted. This reminds me of the movie "Boomerang" when David Allen Grier (?) said pool was a racist game because the white ball knocks all the colored balls of the table.

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I guess I will go turn in my beautiful brown skin and nappy cornrowed hair. Pity. I really liked them!

I keep mine in my wallet right next to my certified humanity.

It is an insult of the highest order.

Who are the two red aces being insulted? Commies? Native Americans?


:wtf:

"reds" or "redskins".

Why can't the red aces be Marxists instead?

How can the comment be considered insulting when we aren't even sure who is being insulted?

I can't state specifically what the intent was. I can however, speak to how I've heard such terms used in my experience. I haven't heard it used in the way you speak. Given that few speak of the threat of Marxists I'm not sure how relevant that would be--but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. It could be a possibility as well, depending on context and intent. :)

Since I had explicitly asked whether the red aces were supposed to be Native Americans, your remark that I must not have been aware that Native Americans have been referred to as "reds" and "redskins" makes no friggin sense.


:argh:

I thought by addressing what you said specifically I was acknowledging what you said. But given that you stated you didn't get it, I asked if you had ever heard of them addressed by such terms.

:shrug: Not sure what doesn't make sense to you...

..."four aces" is not a racial slur. So much for your research and superior intelligence, bliss. Sadly, not everyone has such vast knowledge of every site on the Internets like you. :eyes:

I've taken several college-level courses on culture. Doesn't make this inanimate object fetish/hatred appear any less stupid. I've gotten over being called a cigarette and a bundle of sticks. And judging the intelligence of someone based on their inability to find some link on the Internet? Dude, glass houses...

Learning culture from a book isn't quite the same thing as understanding, empathizing with or having compassion for another culture; an issue that (seems to me) to evade you.

Your post read to me as arrogant and rather dismissive of anyone that might find the items or issues of the original post to be offensive. Again, who are you to make such a judgement of anyone?

My post was an attempt at considering another perspective, a point I found sorely lacking in your call for death sentences for those that might dare be upset by such a thing. Not really the perspective I would expect from one that has studied "culture" on any level--but perhaps academia is not what it once was.

For the sake of clarity, my issue with your post was more with your dismissive attitude than rather the statement was a racial slur or not.

... you will understand that people of good faith resent, and I mean really resent, being called a racist and when you assert that they are being insensitive it is tantamount to saying just that.

The fact of whether or not this comment is in fact some kind of covert racist put down is very material. You cannot say "you stole my candy bar" and then when you find it in your purse say "well you might have stolen it", and expect that to make it all right.

Put more simply, minorities have a right to not be treated shabbily, and so do people who have no intention of treating them so.

:rofl:

Interesting that you would address comments not directed to you in such a way. Read the posts, no one was called a racist here. The suggestion that anyone was,implies you are perhaps sensitive about such issues. Wonder why? :eyes:

... and you well know it. Try to back away from claiming that the saying itself doesn't matter. You can't because it does.

with the rest of us. :eyes: It must be such a great tool to read others minds and all--when the text fails to say what you need it to.

Given no one was talking to you...





I'm sure with that neat mind reading thing you do you can figure out the rest. :rofl:

...board and I'll butt in if I feel like it. Your best option is to put me on ignore, since you really cannot answer my complaint.

Given that I haven't addressed you, but another poster--your attacks on me could be construed as personal. Post all you like--you aren't bothering me.

Just don't understand why you are jumping in when no one was talking to you, or why posts with the words "racist" in the title bring the likes of you out.

Self fulfilling prophecies I presume... ;) :rofl:

... if you think that my postings here were an "attack", you haven't seen me in action :) I was not "attacking", I was merely disagreeing with your position.

As for "ignore", there's only one person on my "ignore" list, and to get there you have to be really, really, really stupid. I never said, nor do I think, that you are stupid, so you don't qualify :)

I appreciate your ability to address me directly as a member of the forum, as opposed to engaging in passive aggressive behavior and discussing me indirectly (yet in my presence). The act is respectful on your part, whether you are disagreeing with me or not.

Did I read that right--you're proud of your ability to attack others? Or your attacks in general? That's interesting.

You are allowed to disagree. You are also entitled to your interpretation of my words. I disagree with your interpretation. It happens, there are many different views and opinions present here.

You seemed to feel the need to defend another member from my comments--which I didn't understand and feel was intrusive. It didn't really serve my attempt to have a discussion with that member. Too many cooks, can spoil the broth in some situations. Again, you're entitled--as you said it is a free forum.



edited to check spelling, and for message clarity. :)

What you are saying so beautifully can not be understood by those that seek NOT to UNDERSTAND.

PEACE to you , you are a true drum major for justice.

:yourock: :patriot:

:hi:

it is an anagram for annel_blisters.

As a person suffering from hemmeroids (spinchterally challenged) I find this extremely offensive.

SOMEONE is virtually guaranteed to feel or claim to feel 'hurt' by just about any possible remark in any context. How do we judge what is legitimate vs illegitimate 'hurts'. Are all 'hurts' equal? Is it a matter of numbers? Who is given the right to judge in the first place and why should we trust them to be consistently fair and impartial? I am certain that almost any political, cultural, or philosophical discussion, on any subject, WILL be genuinely considered 'hurtful' by someone. I won't make racial epithets not because I am worried about 'hurting' someones feelings but because they are FALSE. Perhaps we should focus more on reality, truth, and honesty.

.. but I've learned that there are folks who can make virtually anything you say into one if they want to.

Look at this thread. There are lectures about the sensitivity required to be a liberal or progressive, but nowhere on the thread is there the least attempt to explain not only how such a phrase is offensive, but to whom.

Being sensitive to the impact of a slur is certainly valid. Being sensitive to the probability, no matter how small, that something MIGHT be offensive in an indeterminate way to an indeterminate group of people seems ridiculous.
The Professor

if they weren't done in such a round about way. Is there something you would like to say to me? Seeing as I'm the only one that has said things about sensitivity?

If reading comprehension were as bountiful as people's needs on DU to label, maybe there wouldn't be so many misunderstandings or snarky, passive, aggressive comments. :)

However, I won't address comments directly until they are directly posed to me. That's only fair. But I will call others on their behaviour as I see it.

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I guess you told me. :eyes: :rofl:

You get shot for producing 4 aces in your hand because you probably cheated.

Though I always heard it as "a Colt beats four aces".

Who's claiming it's racist?

edited to add: see post #8.

Someone from an activist group the og poster is a member of, suggested as much in an e-mail they sent. :shrug:

beats 4 aces...I think in different parts of the country different guns are substituted...

It's a group called OUTRAGE here in Florida that was formed after Martin Anderson was beaten at that bootcamp.

to figure out if its racist, its proably not.

FWIW, I don't think its racist. If it is its not a very effective slur if one needs an encyclopedia and an hour of research to figure out if they should offended or not :)

Most slurs you know you are offended before the person even finishes the word.

Thought I would add that some slurs, stereotypes and statements of discrimination can be subtle, though. One doesn't have to parade around in a white, pointy hood to be a racist. ;) It would probably make things easier if they did, however.

Consider the source and remember that they have taken off the hoods and put on white suits!

:)

PEACE

Since that can't be answered, its not racist.

...and blatently pro-alcoholic

I had never heard the comment before...asked my husband he said something like "I take it to mean that a gun is more effective than a hand".

Thanks to all who answered, sorry if I caused a rift between anyone, not my intent.

Now I'm off to find more about "Pink Pistols".

So it's not a racist comment here in the midwest. But it may be somewhere else.

for ten years and I know my friends, Black and White, would believe it to be racist.

But, in order to be my friend,a person would need to have some basic understanding of the racial history and tone in America.

My friends would have learned in school or their parents would have taught them to be sensitive to the feelings of others.

Sociology 101 comes to mind.

cuz it doesn't matter what the other hand is.. if you have a gun?

a malt beverage with a gun, no matter if they are a person of color or not. And as a corollary they are tacitly admitting a racist stereotype in their own assessment.

This group of activists does not understand the phrase.

Though this whole thing is dumb.

I think "Aces" was a racial expression in, like, 1886. I doubt anyone in even my grandparents' generation used it.

That cheapens true racism. Thats why these aholes who go around throwing that name out so nonchalantly should be shunned.

I think those types are caustic to any cause they use the R word for.

Anyone tying racism to it is just really over-reaching and stretching their imagination. In reality, no, it's not racist. Not one iota.

Like they're not "good enough", or something...


:grr:

hey wait a minute, that didn't come out right......

"a magnum beats four Spades" or "a magnum beats four ace of Spades". Those would be Racist, but I've never heard of Aces being a raciest reference.

If it is, it's probably so far out of use that most wouldn't be offended.

There will always be people who thrive on being offended. It gives them a chance to point out how clueless and secretly bigoted you are. I say the charge has no merit.

It means that possession of a gun takes precedence over (literally) whatever cards someone else may have in a hand in a poker game or (figuratively) anything else.

it could also be construed as whoever has the power(the gun), takes precedence over those with the good hand in the game (at this point in time--some think that women, minorities, gays, immigrants, etc. are taking away all their rights or power).

This is merely another way to look at it, taking the subtext into consideration, which is generally the way racial slurs, stereotypes and codes are utilized by those that wish to demean and diminish.

Thanks again for breaking it down this way--I appreciate it! :hi:

It is so fascinating how much some want to determine what is perfectly OK to say about a group of people that live on this earth.

It fascinates me that these same people~well not all, some just landed at the wrong website :) just refuse to believe that fat meats greasy!

ROTFL

PEACE and WE SHALL OVERCOME SOMEDAY!

:rofl: :rofl:

Quote:
WE SHALL OVERCOME SOMEDAY!

That's what scares them--all those people that don't know their place, getting the upperhand! Those illegals, those gays, those blacks, those uppity women folk--it scares them shitless...

:rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl:

win again.

TERRA TERRA, Those people, MAGNUMS, ARA, Brownie, "English is our NATIONAL LANGUAGE" when he can't speak English, No Child Left Behind(that one always fascinates me ~ ROVER really pulled a fast one on that crap!)

All are code words for the almighty power that they have convinced poor and middle class Whites will be theirs if they just keep those minorities DOWN.

It is ALL about RACE and POWER for his buddies.

We Shall Overcome Some Day

Everything can be about race and power.

Helping the Needy not the Greedy

but in Bush America, it's about POWER by any means necessary.

about race or power...? Think about the issues that have made headlines in the last few months, weeks, days.

Enron(power), Immigration(race), Glbt rights(power and the current admins decision to deny equality), etc., etc.

It's ok if you choose not to see things this way--I'm not insisting that you have to by any means.

But I feel it's important to CONSIDER that some people don't have that choice. Some lives (many more than people here are willing to admit)are shaped by how they look, or who they sleep with, or their sex, or religious choice or lack of. :)

but then again, I don't play cards. Still, I'm guessing the accusers must be 50+ in age.

(I like your name :hi:)

I grew up with elderly southerners, that had interesting colloquial terms for lots of things that my friends never heard. My saying them in their presence, got me lots of odd looks and questions. ;)

A lot of what we (as a society and as humans)get (or don't) is based on exposure, environment and whether one is open in mind and heart.

... it might sound kind of like some sort of gay-basher slogan.

But four aces? I guess the two black aces could be black guys (or a black couple), and the red aces could be Native Americans or communists. Which makes for a pretty complicated insult.


Two black guys, one Native American guy, and a communist walk into a bar...

There are several possibilities presented in this thread for consideration. Again, terms of racial discrimination are frequently about subtext and an implied understanding of the cultural that is being slurred.

But, I do appreciate your humour. ;):hi: Creativity is welcome--one has to have an open mind to consider such things. We can't change things until people are at least open to the possibilities.

you mean the four Aces are all white...


:hide:

All it could mean is someone who has four aces (which come in two colors) is likely cheating, so someone with a gun "beats" them by taking the money back.