From WI: Public schools should not have to enroll "unteachable students"

...world and hopefully addressed. Board member Bartol comes off sounding ignorant and insensitive.

Disabilities does not mean they are "unteachable."
This is a business type approach to education were they will simply scrap the less than perfect round pegs.

It's a short step from demanding that all, including SPED students, learn at the same pace and master the same skill levels, from labeling those who don't keep up "unteachable."

I hope his community takes issue with this, and pitches a big enough fit that he retracts and/or resigns. If people don't want to hear this propaganda become an accepted piece of "conventional wisdom" that "everybody knows," the general public ought to start fighting back. Quit voting for or supporting NCLB supporters. Start demanding that the high-stakes testing and ranking portions, among other less than savoury pieces, be abolished.

Un-fucking-believable.

This must be a plant from the rightwing conspiracy taking local government posts.

Does he think he has the education and experience to determine which child is "unfit" for public education and thus a drain on tax dollars? Where does he intend to draw the line? Will the educational apartheid be permanent or subject for few every year or so? And what criteria makes a child (a work in progress) immune to the benefits of education? Because the kid's parents refuse to let the schools administer Ritalin against their will? Because the kid gets bad grades? Because the kid is a special needs case physically, mentally, or emotionally?

I'm getting sick . . .

He would appear to be living proof of his own thesis.

"In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made School Boards." -- Mark Twain

We're always quick to jump on teachers here, but, if the periodic DU Income polls are to be believed, few of us here have ever been willing to do such déclasseé work as teaching.

I had a kid who couldn't walk or talk, and probably never will. We felt it was a great day when he was able to hold a spoon and put it up to his mouth. But the love and light shining from his eyes was incredible! No, he'll never be able to hold a job or function like other kids. But that doesn't give anyone the right to say that he should be shunted aside, locked away....that's what they used to do with the "feeble minded" as they were called back then. And the poor were often denied education as well. NCLB is a mechanism to go back to the bad old days by demanding that every child meet a certain standard-I'm waiting for them to put in there that every child must run a certain distance and be able to drive a car before they graduate-that will get rid of all wheelchair bound and blind students so we don't have to bother with them any more.

quality of life that is derived from learning how to do things.

My son is autistic and is learning to communicate, read and yes, comprehend. He is very smart and observant. I would bust up anyone who tried to convince me he isn't worth educating.

Maybe this board member needs to hear about some geniuses that could speak or appeared uneducatable until they were five or six.

(Blessings on you and yours, Ayesh...)

And I doubt many will agree that it's declasse. Sheesh!!

The only case I can think of where a student might possibly be "unteachable" would be a Terry Schiavo kind of situation -- but even in that case, if it's a kid and the parents want him there, he should be.

Why do you ask?

...I do think that when public schools test scores are compared with those of private schools, the special needs and handicapped kids' scores should be separate. It's unfair that public schools sometimes get a rap for lower test scores than private schools (even though they are only marginally lower!), when you consider the fact that the public schools have to handle the lions' share of special needs' kids, and mostly only healthy, 'normal', well-off kids go to private schools.


The fact is that considering all the public schools have to deal with, they do an amazing job of educating out kids!


Studies have borne this out: A majority of parents in surveys thought that public schools in general perform badly. But the HUGE majorities of the same parents said that their OWN public schools were good or excellent. What does that tell us? That most schools are doing a good job, but that most people have swallowed the line from the media about "underperforming public schools" hook, line and sinker.

Which caused its own problems, in that the school created a lot of pressure to diagnose the kids we thought would be low-scoring as "special ed" so we could pull those kids' tests and thereby inflate our scores!

Test scores, anyway, and IMHO, are very often totally meaningless. Who's checking the validity of the tests? What are they really measuring? I know in my city, the test scores are an almost perfect inverse relationship to the number of free lunch kids. When test scores improve, who's making sure the tests aren't getting easier? There are so many problems with the way we test, I can't even begin.

Who even remembers that in 1995 they added 100 points to every SAT score? So that a 500 in 1990 is equivalent to a 600 in 2005? No one. Does it even matter? Not really. The whole infrastructure is an enormous waste of energy.

but of course, now, he is finishing up his double major at NC State. Unfortunately, many politicians and some families of students without disabilities, say this garbage and are very adamant in their positions. It's a struggle to get modern compassionate thinking into the American mainstream.

about my hubby.

Society at large is about sixty or seventy years behind what is possible, let alone what is compassionate. We keep up the good fight.

to be "normal" and he is physically incapable of being "normal." He was tormented unmercifully in school, and learned to "hide" his mental disability, and the family, relieved that he had "gotten better" didn't question it -- until two bimbos rooked him out of $50,000 (because he will do WHATEVER you tell him to do), at which point we finally had him tested as an adult. (He's 33.) He is remarkably high functioning, but there are just some concepts he cannot grasp -- four quarters equals one dollar, and ten dimes equals one dollar, and one hundred pennies equals one dollar -- and so we are doing what should have been done fifteen years ago -- getting him a guardianship / conservatorship to PROTECT HIM.

He will not be able to enter into legal contracts, which means no more bimbos trying to take his money, but it also means he will never be allowed to be married. That was harder on his dad and brother than it was on him because they wanted him to be NORMAL, but honestly, he can't understand medical decisions for himself, so how could he handle the legal responsibility of making medical decisions for a spouse?

I love my BIL; he is a sweet man. He works hard, but will never make more than minimum wage, and it is up to us to take care of him. I am grateful he got as much help as he did in school, but at a certain point, he just didn't belong in the "mainstream" of normal children because he needed different help than children who aren't mentally disabled. He can do math at a third grade level, and read at a fourth grade level, and he did NOT belong in an Algebra class, or a college prep English class. It would have destroyed HIS self esteem, and taken away from the opportunities that should have been open to other people.

I am not saying people with problems should be "thrown away" -- what I am saying is that idealism and practical problem solving have got to find a happy medium, and beating up on someone who is saying the obvious is a deliberate ignoring of the harsh realities of life. There is a finite supply of money available to the schools, there are only so many teachers, and there are hungry minds that MUST BE FED -- not everyone can eat the same food at the same pace.

Step One is to admit there is a problem. Step Two is to find the best solutions for everybody.

so lets make ALL CHILDREN use diapers! Sixteen years olds can drive cars, so let's let FIVE year olds drive cars, too!

At a certain point, its time to realize that there are different needs for different people at different life cycles, and that also means acknowledging that certain disabilities -- including some mental and physical problems -- should not be treated in a cookie cutter fashion.

I have explained how my BIL cannot do "abstract reasoning" because he is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of it. That doesn't make him less of a human being, but it does mean that babbling geometry at him is an exercise in futility, and a waste of valuable resources.

to separate and forget. Who determines "unteachable"?. Like I said, my son was labeled "unteachable' but is about to achieve a double major at a major US university. This does not mean the disabled do not have different abilities just like "normal" people don't all complete double majors or become corporate CEO's.

Your son was labeled unteachable -- I don't know what miracles happened to make things better for him, but I'm grateful that things got there for him.

My BIL is an example of "the other stuff that happens" -- a nice kid who learned to HIDE his disability because of what he endured. He can parrot stuff back at you so well, you think he understands what you are saying, but the reality is HE DOESN'T. FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS LATER, the family finally learned to deal with the REALITY of his problems.

As near as I can determine, you would put him in a Geometry classroom in the name of "keeping opportunities available for everyone," and completely ignore the damage it does not only to HIS self esteem, but the amount of time WASTED and the OPPORTUNITIES LOST for everyone else. I find that attitude annoying in the extreme.

Who determines who is "unteachable" and who isn't? That's a damn difficult question, and I don't know the answer. At one point, the "experts" assured my in-laws my BIL would never walk, and they would be best off if they "put him away" someplace to be forgotten about. Thank heavens they ignored that advice -- he ran track in high school and is an Eagle Scout! -- but at the same time, their decision to ignore the reality of his limitations has caused us all huge problems. And, as a side note, let me assure you that the time they invested in taking care of my beloved BIL also caused problems with the son they neglected -- my incredibly talented and gifted husband -- the invisible child who learned that his needs weren't as important as that of "everyone else" around him.

My BIL deserved every opportunity he could be given, but that doesn't mean HIS opportunities should come at the cost of OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES. And at NO POINT IN THIS DISCUSSION have I *ever* advocated that he be "separate and forgotten" -- but its a nice way to minimize the REAL CONCERNS that families with "disabled" members cause for the entire community.

Yes, we need to take care of *all* of the members of our community, but DAMN IT! I am sick to death of people PRETENDING that cookie cutter solutions are best for everyone.

Maybe your son belonged in a classroom with thirty students being supervised by one person, but that method doesn't work for everyone, and it is ridiculous to expect ONE TEACHER to spend ALL OF THEIR TIME on one or two students with 'special needs' while neglecting the hungry minds of the rest of the class.

As I said before, Step One: Identify the Problem and Step Two: FIX IT!

Is this a legal issue in your state? Or a moral one? Sorry, but I just don't understand. I worked with MR/DD people for a long time, and if they were of legal age, and after much counseling, they could and did get married. And a legal guardian was appointed for both people in order to step in for medical decisions, contractual obligations, etc.

enter into legal contracts. I'm not sure how it is in other states, but everybody -- the social worker, the guardian ad litem, our attorney, and the doctors -- have all been clear on "no marriage." He also won't be able to vote.

It makes sense to me from a practical point of view -- it would be very easy for someone to "marry him" to take all of his assets, for example (which have been provided by his parents so he will be taken care of when they are gone) -- and, as I said, he can't/ doesn't understand "medical jargon" so bad things could really happen there. It does seem to be one of those "rules to protect HIM" type of situations.

I think that if he "finds someone to love" we will handle it from there; there hasn't been anyone "serious" yet, though.

If you didn't live in Michigan, I'd swear you were my friend Ida who has a brother in-law who's mildly retarded in much the same way. He seems pretty normal to talk to, but can't grasp numbers and absract concepts. He worked for many years as a bagger at a unionized grocery store but recently "retired" in his 50s and is now collecting some kind of Social Security disability. He could have kept working--he loved his job and was making a pretty good income WITH benefits--but his parents had gotten too old to drive him to work and there is no public transportation. He really misses going to work.

I am definitely in Michigan; I was named after my paternal grandmother, and the name is "unusual" for my generation. My BIL currently works as cleaning staff; prior to this job, he washed dishes. He is a very sweet man! :)

upstairs."

Can get big and be pResisdent of Red America!

by students who are "unteachable".

the vast majority of "unteachable" don't disrupt anything. But they all are "lumped" together.

The next thing they'll do is broaden the definition of "unteachable" using bogus science.

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column/smith//index.php?ntid=85279&ntpid=1

Lampert Smith: School Board rookie needs some learning
SUSAN LAMPERT SMITH Wisconsin State Journal

". . . By now, assuming that he is "educable," a word that went out of style when Elvis was still alive, I'm sure he's learned a few things.

First, that federal and state law require that the schools educate every child that comes through the door, no matter what. Yes, it's expensive. And yes, the federal government long ago quit paying its full share of the cost. But ignoring the law would bring on a lawsuit that would dwarf the costs currently paid for special education.

More importantly, Bartol needs a lesson on compassion. He should spend time with kids with disabilities, their teachers and their families. He would learn how hard the kids work to learn skills that are easy for the rest of us, and how their teachers and families celebrate those victories.

At the kids' homes, he'd learn that there is no "elsewhere" to send them. We closed the institutions long ago but don't spend nearly enough to support kids with disabilities in the community. There are waiting lists years long for nearly every service. School is about the only place these kids can go and not be turned away.

Finally, he might learn some humility. His children or grandchildren might be born with disabilities. Or they might start out fine, but wind up in special education thanks to a head injury. . ."

-more-

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column/smith//index.php?ntid=85279&ntpid=1

This sentence about Mr. Bartol says it all:

"Bartol was elected in April on an anti-school referendum platform."

... however, in a later post (down thread) I express major concerns about the way this is funded.

I believe the services these students receive are necessary and need to be funded ... but i'm not sure that the way we (here in Michigan) fund this.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/9276781/detail.html


Newly elected school board member Kevin Bartol says Baraboo schools shouldn't be required to serve students with disabilities who "can't be taught." What do you think?

Choice Votes Percentage of 1213 Votes

Bartol has a point. I agree with him. 339 28%

Bartol's statements are ignorant. Students with disabilities are able to learn with proper assistance. 804 66%

I don't know. 50 4%

I don't care. 20 2%

First a story about my niece (actually pseudo niece, her mother and I have been "best" friends for 40 years, we are 44)

My niece is severely multiply impaired. She is legally blind, profoundly cognitively impaired (she will never utter a word or be able to gesture needs), she is wheelchair bound and unable to maintain her posture or shift her weight. She, until recently, had a feeding tube (for supplemental/emergency feeding). she does express emotion such as delight or pain.

She is now 16 years old and has attended our public school station for 11 or 12 years. They have provided wonderful services to her and her family during this time. she is picked up by a school bus with attendants, she is undressed (Michigan= winter gear/coats/boots....) she is changed and re-diapered. She receives OT and PT ... her teachers provide very skilled and targeted stimulation.
She is fed and repositioned during the day, the bandages were changed around her feeding tube (which always had exudate). She is out and about and able to be in the "real world."

She is typical of what is termed un-educable. Do I believe that she deserves the wonderful service she receives ... EMPHATICALLY YES!

The wonderful care and services she receives is through our local school districts (technically provided through an intermediate school district)...the cost of these services is 5-6 times the spending per student in our general public school population. This cost is "averaged" in to our districts per student spending.

Many people voicing the concerns of this member are concerned about the way the student spending, for students such as my niece, is funded. Many question arise r/t whether these services should be funded and provided through local school districts (vs statewide).

Though I generally like the school district we live in there is a paucity of programs for gifted or accelerated students due to funding, this has sadly effected my children.

The board members statements:"There are some people in this country that cannot be educated," Bartol said to the board Monday night. "They may have their eyes open, but there's no one awake upstairs," are quite offensive...

I do think we need to look at how we fund the education of students such as my niece (In no way do I want to see these services discontinued ...however some school districts have severe financial constraints due to the large number of severely impaired students .... I do believe we must fund these services differently)

Claiming a student is "unteachable" is a cop-out for an incompetent teacher.

Sounds like he won't be on the board for long. What a ass.

And who is going to define it.

I could easily see this being defined by the Reich Wing as those who they do not want educated.

What a MORAN!

:grr:

Some kids can attend regular classes with assistance. Others need special settings--but they deserve consideration, even if they will never read or even speak. But these kids can be expensive.

If this small group of children can be cast from public schools--who comes next? Or--who must fit into ONE type of classroom? How about the bright kids, bored silly? Or the ones who need special attention & motivation? Or kids like me--excellent in verbal subjects but lazy in math?

Public schools are getting less money & their funding is tied to "tests" that some kids just can't handle. Not that neglecting other subjects to concentrate on The Test helps anyone.

In one case, where life is not only possible, but vital and ongoing, we are to ignore and ...... what, exactly?

Yet, in a case where life is barely definable as such we are to save and maintain and .......... what, exactly?

This does not mean that said fool has any expertise or training in education at all.

If I'd grown up in Baraboo, I'd probably be weaving baskets in a day program now instead of heading off to a meeting of our state's leadership program for people with disabilities and their family members. :grr: :banghead:

..but it's not the ones Mr. Bartol thinks. It's the ones whose parents never make the students do their homework, who indulge every whim of the child, who turn a feckless, selfish monster onto classrooms. The kids think they're God and any bad grade they get is the teacher's fault, not the fault of the child, who sits there and colors during class. I am a teacher and I'd rather have a million "unteachable" special needs kids willing to work and learn than a single "normal" kid who could give a damn.

... I ran across ***1*** student whom I became convinced was unteachable.

Or at least unteachable by me.

I was shocked as all hell - I had previously not acknowledged that the set of unteachables was nonempty.

Learned my lesson - it's just *practically* empty.

... in terms of intellectual horsepower...

Pot, kettle. Kettle, Pot.

LOLOL


Presumably it'll go down as a knock against NCLB, but it's just as likely to be a pretext to get the dirty filthy brown skins outta their lovely school. 'Cuz they're not so bright, dontchaknow.