Hayden in w/ "nearly no discussion" Dems join Rubber Stamp Club, so why do

we bother? If we can't be bothered to discuss it and badger our representatives to represent us ahead of time, why not just give up all together? Why vote? Why believe in magical "November"?

Why not admit that the Dems in Congress (minus a handful of True Heroes) do not represent us at all? If we admit that, Then What?

They weren't outraged about Hayden (Durbin said what needed to be said and so did Specter) but NOW they're OUTRAGED about the search of Jefferson's home and office! When it's PERsonal to them! Forget about the folks back home, sitting on their asses so cynical that they don't even make a phone call (ooooppppsss!! on The List NOW!!!!!) believing in the salvation of an election that they KNOW can be STOLEN! :crazy:

If the Congress is totally compromised and the public is totally lame, the question is Where Are OUR Balls? What are our alternatives? Instead of getting more non-voters to vote in November, HAVE THE DEMOCRATS SUCCEEDED IN CREATING A WHOLE NEW BATCH OF NON-VOTERS?

:bounce: :bounce:


edit: sp.

No matter what you think of Hayden...and personally it disturbs me to have him at CIA...outside of places like this board...no one cares...

This is sort of what I was thinking at first. But if that's true, why not vote against? What's the advantage (even if you believe hardly anyone cares) in voting for him? Perhaps there's a reason, but I'm not sure I can see it.

and our reps are supposed to educate us when necessary.

the reverse of your logic is that when people "care" the reps should vote that way--but they don't then either.

face the truth: there is no longer representative govt in the u.s.

Despite media reports, their study into the nomination led them to believe he was the right choice after all....

I have a basic problem with a military man running the CIA, and after the NSA stuff came out I had even more reservations about this guy. But I don't know him, know little about him, so what I am reading in the media may be wrong. Several good and true liberal members voted for him...so that does give me pause about it.

I have a wide net of people I interact with through my business, at school, family and friends...this topic did not come up once...

I just don't think it is a hot topic in the country.

A corporate whore sell out only interested in seeing how far up Bush's ass he can get his nose.

Didn't you know?!!

:sarcasm:

NAYs ---15
Bayh (D-IN)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Obama (D-IL)
Specter (R-PA)
Wyden (D-OR)

:wow:

Either Boxer is out of her mind...or

It was possible to come to the conclusion that Hayden might not be as bad as many thought...

Note: Seven were absent, so I don't know whether she was actually there.

with absolutely no advocacy for our interests.

the only option open is to take over the democratic party from the inside and dump these useless dinos.

this only serves to reinforce that what we are doing is what needs to be done.

a military man for the CIA chief is chilling.

This has been going on for awhile, getting increasingly worse with every passing years.

There are a couple of solutions. Either we abandon the Dems and go Green out of protest, send a message, or we take corporate money out of our government by enacting publicly financed elections. Sadly, this would only really be doable in the twenty two states that have the power to introduce ballot resolutions via initiative petitions. The rest we would have to go through the state legislature, and do you honestly think that either party would get behind this idea? Thus the need to put Greens in on local, state and nationwide basis. One of their prime tenants is publicly financed elections.

Take corporate money out of government and we will return government to the people. Continue what we're doing now, and corporations will continue to gain more and more power over your life and mine.

But when you have to reach more and more people, be it in local or national elections, that takes money, because that's the only way to get your message out when the corporations who own the goverment own the media.

Since society, the country, populations, civilization, doesn't contract voluntarily, and only wants to expand, it'll take even more money to get the message out in the media that is owned by the corporations that own the government.

Things are getting too big for whatever democracy is to work. One person can't represent 600,000 people, or whatever the ratio is in Congress. However, it's much easier to buy one person than it is 600,000. You could somehow make a law increasing the amount of Congress members(if you can get people that belong to two parties in Congress to give up power), but then that'll be way too many cooks in the kitchen, half of them won't be heard anyway(there isn't enough time in the day), and you still won't be represented.

It must be so damn easy to be a corporation.

It's going to be hard as hell, but if you want your government back, it is our only options left. Otherwise this country will continue to sink into a corporate controlled dictatorship until either we all die, or people get pissed off enough to start an armed revolution. Neither of those options is particularly attractive to me.

Remember, the people still have one thing our government absolutely positively has to have in order to function, our vote. I suggest that we start exercising it while we're still able to. Otherwise here in a few years, that too will be gone.

"Remember, the people still have one thing our government absolutely positively has to have in order to function, our vote."

I'm not even sure they(the powers that be, of course) need or want a functioning government, other than to collect our taxes to pay for wars and such. Although if they set up a collection squad with some cool military hardware that Lockheed thought up, it could serve the same purpose. Then there's always the NSA and DARPA, who will probably one day just take it right out of your bank account, no blood or paperwork needed.

That all depends on the need for votes. They buy their guy(or gal), that person is the last one standing because they had the most money, and that's who we have to vote for.

Hopefully you're right and the vote still means something.

:yourock:

"Otherwise this country will continue to sink into a corporate controlled dictatorship until either we all die, or people get pissed off enough to start an armed revolution. Neither of those options is particularly attractive to me."

Another option is to demand representation from those in government now. We are so deep into the first part of your scenario that it even impacts our elections-- and yet people are still counting on a future (and accepting the unacceptable now) election that can not be counted on.

"Remember, the people still have one thing our government absolutely positively has to have in order to function, our vote. I suggest that we start exercising it while we're still able to. Otherwise here in a few years, that too will be gone."

Our vote is already gone, isn't it? Do we have any real certainty that the 2000 and 2004 elections did not go the wrong way? (there's plenty of proof that they did)

A lot of the "defeatism" (borrowed the snark from another post) of impotence and resignation NOW is based on faith in a November that holds NO guarantees.

:hi:

Now tell me how that qualifys them for the "Rubber Stamp Club"?

confirmed with the help of fucking DEMOCRATS! I am so sick of this shit. WE NEED A NEW PROGRESSIVE PARTY and we need it NOW.

the good news many progressives are running for office:

Bob Fritrakis / Gov. of Ohio
John Bonifaz / SOS of MA

the list goes on..

if we could only fix election fraud, these progressives have a good chance of securing office.

and Snow mentioned "oversight" and "checks and balances"

THIS is the point that was completely avoided by stomaching this aburd/insane nomination

FISA violations? Dems say "Yawn."

Impeachable offenses? "Off the table."

The formal lingo and decorum of the Senate caused even Kerry and Feingold to SOFTPEDAL this outrage. And there was no outrage! "Even on DU."

Feinstein is a complete waste.

She's USELESS and I am praying the voters in CA. kick her useless ass to the curb! I can't stand that woman. I am so disgusted about this, but what the hell is new? The Dems disappoint me every freakin' day.:( I want a new party.

recognition that no well known progressive Dem will step forward to challenge her. It is disgusting, because the base would rally around a kick ass progressive and DINO Diane would get the boot.

I'm just hoping that total unknown Colleen Fernald will get enough votes to embarrass the shit out of "repuke lite" Feinstein.

Thanks for not dissapointing me.

this is not a "defeatist" thread.

this is a "let's get real and create what's next" thread.

any input you have that is not "defeatist" will be appreciated :hi:

and we heard a lot of that on DU before and during the Hayden hearings........ that "doing nothing" included even discussing it!

So a lot of folks seem to be rolling over for what comes down from Bushco.-- not just in Congress.

Noticed that you didn't offer any input or ideas or answer the OP questions-- the snark attack is pretty funny, considering how ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN many DUers were that it was a "done deal." That brand of cynicism and voluntary impotence is the definition of "defeatist."

"Hayden in w/ "nearly no discussion" Dems join Rubber Stamp Club, so why do we bother?"

I still bother to contact my Congress members, bother to start some discussions, bother to believe it's not a done deal unless we go limp and make it one-- and bother you by bringing it up again.

"If we can't be bothered to discuss it and badger our representatives to represent us ahead of time, why not just give up all together? Why vote? Why believe in magical "November"?"

That's an important (not an impotent) question. Goes along with:

Instead of getting more non-voters to vote in November, HAVE THE DEMOCRATS SUCCEEDED IN CREATING A WHOLE NEW BATCH OF NON-VOTERS?

"Why not admit that the Dems in Congress (minus a handful of True Heroes) do not represent us at all?

Well?

"If we admit that, Then What?"

"If the Congress is totally compromised and the public is totally lame, the question is Where Are OUR Balls? What are our alternatives?"

is the result of election fraud and voters not showing up at polls and disenfranchisement and a whole host of tricks including reapportionment played over tens of years by the GOP.

it's time to standardize everything..... and get officials in office that are ELECTED.
3 simple solutions:
1. GET RID OF ALL VOTING MACHINES return to hand counted in citizen view paper ballots
2. GET RID OF VOTER REGISTRATION make people bring one of 17 forms of ID and photocopy it on election day and wait 2 weeks afterward to verify none are invalid felons, to certify all votes....
3. USE SCHOOL BUSES to transport citizens on election night to counting locations, with video cameras in full view

this will stop the insanity of democrats who do not vote the will of the people
and finally, make it a condition of being a citizen that you MUST Vote.. it's not a privilege anymore, it's a requirement. just like taxes, you have to vote. period. no more lazy americans getting us into this mess....

:patriot:

All adult American citizens, unless it is an impossibility.

you want more of this?

One choice for too many Dems seems to be "there's nothing we can do, so let's do nothing." :evilfrown

in the Democratic "leadership."

Well, this- and Alito and Roberts- and lest we forget- Porter Goss, are big reasons why.

Personally, I can't in good conscience tell anyone to expect that the current mix of Democrats- with their dozen or so DINO's is going to protect their interests- or the interests of ordinary working people.

I'd be lying. All I can say is that the Republicans are worse.

Time for backbone

And I have more news- people who think that these DINO's are going to somehow magically stop enabling the far right - or legitimizing and voting for their policies (or Bush's nominees) are going to be in for a rude awakening in the unlikely event the Dems regain the majority.

People have become more concerned with blind partisanship- a Democrat at all costs- than with long term strategy or even their own values.

There's a reason why the Dems have lost 6 congressional elections in a row- and it's related to why so many Dems cross party party lines (some VERY consistently) to vote for far right legislation and nominees.

the Bush Regime has violated the FISA Law. Furthermore, most Dems will not oppose the Bush Regime going forward with more Illegal Spying in America. It seems that the majority of Dems are complicit with the Bush Regime in most aspects. It is worrisome that now most Americans have little confidence in the Bush Regime or Congress. What we have now is a failure of Govt. representation of the people. Instead we have a Govt. that represents the interests of Corporations and The Military Industrial Complex.

Perhaps the Declaration of Independence needs to be studied, seriously!

The Senate confirmed him for the Ambassador to Iraq 95-3, and as the National Intelligence Director 98-2.

admin.
And was it in the last week that Warner said there should be "more bipartisanship"????

The mere utterance of that word made me want to puke. Bipartisanship seems to go only in one direction, these days....I want a damned opposition party!

demanding representation from the people we have in there now?

'Dems suck' thread on this. Just surprised it took so long.

Why vote you ask? Well I would hope that after being a member of DU for so long you'd be able to answer that yourself. I think in your heart you can.

As far as the question of have the democrats succeeded in creating a whole new batch of non voters goes, the answer is a resounding no, other than maybe yours and a handful of others who aren't seeing the bigger picture. The majority of americans could care less and have no idea who hayden even is. Now granted, yes, if the MSM did their jobs maybe more would know. But that has nothing to do with the question. Since it is what it is and most could care less, than no, no, they didn't create a big batch of non voters.

The dems aren't always going to pull off what you want them to every single time. But to suggest that they aren't constantly standing up for our values and fighting best they can against this incredibly powerful and corrupt administration and congress, than I fear you haven't been paying enough attention and probably haven't watched CSPAN oft enough.

Just my humble opinion.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :nuke:
the alarm clock is making a funny sound

hmmmm, what to do???

Seriously?

my interest in what they are doing.
I focus on my favorite, who seems to be willing to be ahead of the curve, and am starting to tune out party in general.

I never registered with a party until 2000. I'm on the verge of returning to independent status.

"I focus on my favorite, who seems to be willing to be ahead of the curve, and am starting to tune out party in general."

Some states have Progressive Caucus within the Dem party trying to get the party relevant again.

Malloy was saying last night "We HAVE to vote Democrats in in November and to purge the party" (of traitor DINOs).

Good luck! :kick:

It's time to purge the fascist WHORES from our party.

VOTED YES to confirm Hayden as head of CIA...
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Byrd (D-WV)
Carper (D-DE)
Feinstein (D-CA) *** VOTED TO CONFIRM FROM senate intelligence committee
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI) *** voted to confirm from senate intelligence committee
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)

*** SHAME ON THE NONVOTERS for not taking this appointment seriously enough to cut into their fucking vacation plans!!!!
Not Voting - 7

Boxer (D-CA)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dole (R-NC)
Inouye (D-HI)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Thune (R-SD)

A blind man could see that