Vet visited HS, told kids not to ever protest if they love...

and support their country... I couldn't believe what my daughter was telling me... They all had to go to the auditorium for Memorial Day and listen to a few veterans speak. She told me the vet said: "I am not getting political here but if you love your country, do not ever protest in the streets against any war". He continued: "It only makes our soldiers spirit weaken and our enemy stronger. Please, if you honor your soldiers, do not protest, ever"...

OMG...

I am so pissed... How could the school allow this to happen... WTF...

A few of the kids did get mad at hearing this but nobody dared to speak up to his face. Afterwards, my daughter told me that most of the kids demanded to know why the two that were upset felt that way, and had to be reminded that this was America and one of our basic rights is the right to free speech and protest, and nobody not even a veteran (especially a vet..) should be saying these things to kids..

What is happening in our country when the kids are acting like the adults of the 60s and actually defending this kind of garbage...? Do they not understand what's at stake here? Do they not know about Kent State? Do they not care?

I guess I have to decide if I want to go in and fight with the school yet again... And this is in NJ? God help us all...

Why they invited a crypto-fascist to speak at the school without giving parents an opportunity to withdraw their children from the event.

You invite some vets to an event, you honor them, you have a honor guard and then the kids go home. You do NOT just let anyone take a mic in front of your kids unless you KNOW what they're going to say.

But I've seen this happen. I honestly doubt that there was any ill-will behind it.

Hopefully I can help him learn from his mistake... ;)

but they need to do a better job of telling speakers to not get political.

I think not.

and then proceeds to get political. :eyes:

...and then launch into a tirade criticising everyone not the same shade of pink. Idiots.

..."Ok, I'll be honest with you"...

Yikes, I'm always afraid when I hear that one too...

a vet of what?

That is ridiculous. The school should never ask this man to come back again.

Another thing you could do is write a LTTE or even a letter to the vet himself, reminding him that one reason we have a military is to preserve and protect our constitutional rights, especially the right to free speech.

.... there's a shitload of vets who will say the exact opposite of that.

He sure doesn't speak for me.

I guess the concept of the first amendment will always elude a certain proportion of slower witted brethern in arms. Tis a pity...

Constitution, the Constitution which gives We the People the right "peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances". That is our first duty.

Frankly, I never thought I needed mindless, uncritical approval to do my duty as it was given to me to do. If what I was doing was unethical or immoral, then it was up to me to do something about it or to accept the consequences. In short, I wasn't issued a cheering section and managed to soldier on. The current generation can do the same.

for saying that, it means so much coming from a veteran... And thank you so much for your service... :patriot:

who were in at the same time as me and went 'over there'. I served in a cushy job on a minesweeper.

Look for this avatar and you'll know some of them.

"Cushy job in a minesweep??"

I was Jack-O-The-Dust.

We were authorized subrats.

I made the menu.

We ate good.

:)

This guy sounds like he was trolling for cannon fodder.

was asked to say a few words at a vets assembly at his school.

He said "The best way you can honor me as a veteran is NOT to become one." and walked off. Kids were talking about it for weeks.

Principal was pissed, but he was the one who asked my friend to speak.

My principals knew better than to give me a microphone at a vets assembly.

could take to the streets and protest - it is a cornerstone of our democracy and no one has the right to tell her not to. In fact, it may be the thing that preserves it more than any wars we've ever fought.

I mean, I thought the whole reason our military fights is for freedom and Democracy.

So, thank you. People talk about will the vets sacrifice be in vain, well, only if you take away our Democracy!

... I will definitely tell her you said that... Thank you so much for your service! :patriot:

and worship their President and never question what is done in His Name, since He is Holy. And to protest hurts all veterans-you NEVER see veterans protesting, and you never have. :sarcasm:

Someone should have asked him why he hates our freedoms. War is not a glorified video game. Since when it is bad to face reality?

:headbang:
rocknation

Vietnam.

As a recipient of the Navy Cross, I was a local celebrity for about 20 minutes.

I was handed a list of talking points by a Navy recruiter.

I started by saying, "The first thing we would do is throw the village elders down the well."

They cut off my microphone.

:thumbsup:

Can't actually SHOCK folks and tell what REALLY goes on overseas. I mean . . . what did they WANT you to say? What a sunny, happy fun time you had spreadin' democracy over there?

They tried to get my friend, who was in BewshWar Part Deux, to speak in front of a K of C gathering. He politely refused, more or less because he's just the type of guy who would not abide by the talking points in public.

... kids in the auditorium, some aren't stupid and knew exactly what was happening... You probably got further with the kids by that one brave statement and subsequent humiliation, than anything you could have talked about anyway... I can't believe that I'm shocked that they cut your mike... But I am, shocked and sickened... Please accept my sincerest apologies for the way you were treated by my country... I am ashamed... And thank you very much for your service... :patriot:

Most of them refused to go back to their classes.

I was talking to an auditorium of 15-18 year old kids and I was only 21.

Felt like I was at least 100. I was so tired back then. And so wearily sad. All the time.

Do not thank me - thank all of those who have gone before and didn't have the chance that I did because they didn't come back.

I actually thought, back then, that I had done all that fighting so kids would - hopefully - be spared the final toll of fighting in any future tragically unneeded conflict.

When will we ever learn?

Thank you for your kind thoughts and words.

Tom

Your marching in the streets would validate my job in uniform. I'd like to kick that "vets" ass. Only to express my point of view of course.

Obviously his oath to support and defend the constitution doesn't mean much to him.

for saying that, and for your service... :patriot:

He should be ashamed.

Get up there and explain how this country was founded and what our principles are based upon.

... except for the fact that my daughter would rather walk on hot coals than have that actually happen. But, since they gave this man an opportunity to present his side of the story, should the truth have an equal chance here?

Yes, but oh man, the thought of going in to see the principle, yet again, yet again about politics, makes me cringe... I can hear it now, "Ummm, Mr. Sweizzer, it's that crazy freedom hating liberal psycho bitch on line 2, please"

that could do it? It is not right for a soldier to squash dissent.. My son fights now and he thanks me for trying to get this one stopped.. He is very patriotic, but things have changed since he has been out there.... Maybe another soldier who could do it?

see if they have a local member who would be willing to speak.

They will have somebody who will help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1288664

We all live with Neanderthals! Now we have to figure out best how to deal with the big mess they've made! Good luck. (We can't recall our School Board Rep. because he hasn't served a year yet....So, we've got to come up with a Plan B.) Your speaker is a vet, he deserves respect. But, before I granted him a total pass, I'd try to find out if he ever served in LIVE COMBAT. If he was just a weekend warrior, I say all bets are off and criticism is appropriate and justly deserved. If he is a true Iraq survivor--then I think more conversation is merited. Why does he still feel the way he does? Did he experience any injustices? Are his veteran benefits living up to his expectations, etc. I'm sure there's an under-story in there somewhere!

Where he served or whether he saw combat is not relevant, he took an oath, and that is what matters.

For him to tell these kids not to practice their rights, because of some myth on how it affects the morale of the troops, is wrong, there is no justification for it!

When we sign up we swear to defend the Costitution, with our lives if needed, no one has the right to tell others not to practice freedom of speech, and I don't give rat spit what his motives are.
From what I've read he would feel right at home in the Third Reich, and as a veteran, if I had been there I would have told him that.

In America, we should all stand for the same principles! It's too bad that sometimes a bigger message overwhelms the little guy!

it, anyway? HELLO?

That is completely unbelievable, that guy needs to go back to school and take a civics class or some american history and learn how and why this country was founded, and why the constitution was written the way it was.

school. She was so angry, I'm not even sure if I got the story exactly correct and am going to ask her for more clarification today.

Evidently, she went to see several speakers. She said that the Iraqi war vet was asked "What is your most memorable moment?" and his response was that they shot a man's donkey and then stood around and laughed about it. I asked her if anyone asked him why or if there was something I was missing in this exchange. She said that no, he just thought it was funny to shoot an Iraqi's donkey.

I'm hoping this wasn't the entire story and will ask her about it again today, after she's calmed down some. If this is the truth, I WILL take it up with the school.

(She sat quietly through this one, cause she said if she'd said anything, she'd have gotten thrown out of school. She did talk with the Vietnam vets and the WWII vets.)

What's he going to do, beat them up? Shoot them?

Newsflash, VET. We're proud of you that you served your country and defended it. But in case you weren't aware, one of the things you fight for is to protect the CONSTITUTION of this country, not to espouse some proto-fascist party's ideals incorrectly onto America's youth. One of those Constitutional rights is our right to protest, damn it.

This war is wrong and so is that veteran. And on Sept 24th, we had a LOT more vets on our side than the Freeptards gathered in front of the J Edna Hoover building did on theirs.

I would be willing to bet money they don't know their history or understand what is at stake. Like many adults in this miseducated country.

People who didn't live through the Jim Crow era don't understand that level of inequality. People who didn't live through the McCarthy era don't understand how devastating mindless fear can be. People who didn't live through the Nixon era don't understand what it's like to have a dickhead try to turn the "land of the free" into his own private dictatorship. If these things are taught at all, they are presented as bad things that used to happen, but are all fixed now, thanks, nothing to see, move along...

I'm never surprised when kids today fail to grasp the importance of things like Constitutional rights, since that importance isn't stressed to them (are there questions about the Constitution on the No Child Left Behind tests and other standardized "achievement" tests? No? Must not be worth teaching then.) It's the people who lived that history, witnessed it first hand, and still have no clue that baffle me.

and nice post

While anti-military protests were not necessarily welcomed, it was always impressed on us by our senior officers and NCOs (at least the good ones anyway) that we were there to defend the rights of Americans to speak freely. I really hope that the vet was speaking for himself and that this is not something that is now being communicated to servicemembers, though I fear it may be.

they're protesting the people who sent them in harm's way based on lies.

I don't understand how so much concern would negatively impact morale unless someone was purposely mischaracterizing what was being protested. :shrug:

That's exactly who is mischaracterizing the protest. And that's all our troops are getting over there.

No wonder they're confused. :evilfrown:

BTW, welcome to DU. :hi:

I remember that when I was stationed in Japan from '92 to '95, they broadcast Rush every day on Armed Forces Radio but no one to counterbalance. I recall the effect it had on some of the guys around me. They started grousing about Clinton all the time and of course, revered Reagan like he was a god.

Apparently, they were recently forced to air Ed Schultz after complaints to Congress (I think?). But all they get is Fox on TV over in Iraq. Which would explain that poll showing that 90% of the troops over there think that Saddam had a lot to do with 9-11.

Thanks for the welcome :hi:

The good news was that almost 70% thought we should get out of Iraq ASAP. So the propaganda can only go so far. Rush and Fox News, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I got the shock of a lifetime recently when a friend I hadn't seen in years had a "reunion" and she had turned into a Fox-watching, Bush-loving republibot. Her brother is in Iraq so I think that has something to do with it. Possibly one of the coolest people I'd ever met and would still give you the shirt off her back but what a disappointment to hear her spouting Rush & Hannity.

And thanks for your service to our country. My dad served in the Korean war but got stationed in Japan for most of his tour. He loved it! He still talks about it nostalgically to this day. I hope your time there was as pleasant as his was. :patriot:

... Wesley Clark did it single handedly. But then, he's a big Clark booster, so take for what its worth.

courage in going into the Lion's Den (FOX News) has been paying off.

Wes Clark & Cindy Sheehan - An Unlikely Pair!

:kick:

that has been perverted. It has more basis in a 'coulda been' way than a 'really did' way.

of solidarity with soldiers, contrary to right-wing mythology of "spitting on troops". While I was just knee-high to a grasshopper back then, I've since read that "coffee houses" in military base towns were hotbeds for disseminating anti-war information to soldiers and providing those who resisted with support network.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Husb2Sparkly/9

Much of the reality is lost in the miasma of the view one gets looking through the wrong end of the telescope to our past.

once again that journalists somehow lost Iraq rather than, say, the Iraqi Resistance out-smarting us in strategy and tactics (just like the Vietnamese defeated us, not Seymour Hersh).

Here's an interesting take on Iraq's My Lai massacre:

http://counterpunch.org/tristam05262006.html

... it is as true now as it was in Viet Nam. Honorable people do dishonorable tings when subjected to dishonorable conditions for dishonorable reasons.

That's not to excuse any of it. Not at all. The pre-theater actions and words of the unit CO cited in the article is indicative of the bad side.

I'd not heard the term 'haji' used as the modern/Iraq version of 'gook'. I'll keep that filed away, too.

... term for a Muslim man, it means they have completed their pilgrimage to Mecca, which is required of every Muslim at least once in their lifetime... Once you've completed the trip, you can now be referred to as "Hajji"...

It's actually a term of great honor and that it got flipped into something derogatory is proof we know shit about Muslims... :shrug:

statement saying that they are not responsible for the requests made my the military speakers and that in the future any lectures by the military will be optional.

That this Vet still supports her rights under the US Constitution, and that includes her right to protest.

... I will be sure to tell her, it's important... Thank you so much for your service! :patriotic:

:wtf:

their government is involved in? How can one love their country when the government is secretive to its people?

A terrorist kills a kitten.

Please, don't do it! Think of the kittens!

Mandatory :sarcasm: tag for those who didn't think it was obvious. :D

... is funny... :rofl:

to fight for our right to free speech - you know protect and defend the constitution - WHAT WAS I THINKING

For trying to penetrate the circular reasoning of Bushbots.

SO much to STRENGTHEN the spirits of soldiers and makes our enemies just love us. Great logic, my man.

Oh and way to get completely political immediately after you say you're not going to get political.

What the hell part of the First Amendment do they not understand?!?

that this soldier paid more attention to video games in high school than to his high school history teachers?

What you got IMMEDIATELY, he never learned.

And they put him in front of students. Sheesh.

Kids aren't stupid and know when they are being deceived. I can't help but wonder if that jackbooted brownshirt knows he actually helped the anti war movement in a twisted way. This dumb draftee vet is mad as hell that buffoon was given an audience, but is smiling just the same.

and it's good your daughter knows it. I think the school needs to hear about this.

With a quote from a guy named Samuel Adams dated August 1, 1776.


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

(13 sarcasm smilies for each of the brave 3 colonies who told King George to cram it!)

VERY nice post, StaggerLee. Thank you.

:sarcasm: :rofl: :sarcasm: :rofl:

You're energy is better spent elsewhere after that. imho.

would have honored their King, too.

SHAME on this guy and SHAME on the teachers who let him stand there and spew totalitarian bullshit in front of young people.

... risk their cushy little jobs to stand up for what's right... How could they just stand there and let him say these things? They're probably off in space, counting the days until summer vacation, hell if they're going to risk that... We have lost the principle of "doing the right thing", we are now an "I, Me, Mine" society... :shrug:


Edited: Spelling

down the road someplace.

Fascist goons, is what those guys are.

What's the point in even having a country if it isn't free? :grr:

I thought freedom of speech was something that they fought for.

And no, kids these days have no sense of history because it's just not being taught. Maybe a rap or rock group should do a cover of CSN&Y's "Ohio."

before they start getting drafted. Compulsory military service has a way of shaking everyone out of their comfort zones.

on both sides of an issue.

If the principal says no, tell him/her you are going to the local papers, and will call the school board members.

I stood up to the military recruiters on my son's HS campus last fall and the VP is the one that took the "liability waiver" forms they were requiring the kids to fill out to go on their rock climbing wall.

Yes, the principal knows who I am and what I believe in and I am very proud of that. I hope he quakes in in shoes and pays more attention to what goes on at his campus because I have spoken out.

Good luck!

edited to add-

contact your local peace and justice center, your local vet's center to find a speaker, or find a film, maybe someone here can suggest one, I can't think of one off the top of my head

I have never known a soldier who's emotional wellness depended upon whether Americans agreed or disagreed with the actions of politicians in DC. They're there to do their job.

Coming from a military family with a brother currently serving, I get really pissed off when anyone tells people what the soldiers are feeling or thinking. Soldiers aren't toddlers. They're fully capable of understanding the issues and they're fully capable of thinking for themselves thankyouverymuch.

Do you know any vets who have attended protests? I've seen several in my local area, and know there are many more around. Perhaps you could help demonstrate the difference of opinions that constitute a democracy by asking the school to allow one of them to speak about his opinion regarding the value of citizens exercising their rights. Might be more effective than being confrontational ...

.. and this guy is telling our kids to STFU. Sounds like a rabid right-winger. Just because someone fought in a war, does not make them a spokesperson for democracy...

explaining that the vet's comment was inappropriate. I am very serious.

The principal is responsible for putting any/all comments of his guest speakers in an appropriate context. If the vet's comment is allowed to stand it gives a very bad impression to those students who aren't as well-informed and independent-thinking as your daughter.

The issue of whether or not the vet's comments were appropriate should *not* be left as a item of discussion among students - the principal and/or teachers should turn this into a 'teachable moment' to discuss the bill of rights and what freedom of speech means.

:grr:

This is more than an issue of politics or left or right, this is about our basic American rights, the very thing that makes us American and I think it's outrageous for a public HS to invite a speaker who tries to convince them to give up their rights, or shames them into it, in order to suit his personal agenda whatever that may be... WTF...? It feels a little like a form of molestation...

a different point of view. Several in fact - one who might say that he supports the right to speak out even though he is for the war in Iraq; another who might say that he supports the right to speak out and is against the war in Iraq. Equal time.

:hi:

Unfortunately, this late in the year, school is probably out.

But I think a schoolwide assembly on the Bill of Rights would be a great idea.

... because they would have moved up to Canada rather than be disloyal to King George and "weaken the morale of the troops".

(Interestingly enough, most Canadians today are as upset about the quashing of peace protests as the DUers who've weighed in.)

One of the things which distinguishes the US from, say, the Roman Empire, is that soldiers are serving to protect the constitution rather than to promote the military -- an important difference. Even the British colonies (later commonwealth) would have people swear to be loyal to "King and country" -- and if the king were unjust, that was just too bad! I am sure that the veteran who spoke would be the first to say that absolute rule is a bad thing, and that Americans were right to demand freedom. And making people feel GUILTY for following principles which the troops themselves have sworn to uphold is another form of tyranny. Luckily most veterans I've talked to do not think that countries and their people exist only to perpetuate the armed forces!

It's one thing to have personal resentment that the people who are protesting the war may not be from military backgrounds, or may be more (or less) privileged. But using one's service as a way to issue a blanket condemnation is blatantly unfair and unprofessional. It's the same kind of divisive, simplistic approach as claiming that all soldiers are evil thugs.

It would be a valuable learning experience if the kids got to meet other veterans who hold different views -- just so they could see that, while this particular individual may feel strongly about what society should be like (and as others have pointed out, his military experiences may have shaped this) ... there are plenty of people who went through similar things but do not share his opinions. Most history, social studies, and civics teachers would probably see the importance of this too.

As members of the military, they don't have AS MUCH of a voice as regular private citizens do. Therefore, they rely and depend on us to speak up and make some noise if we think the government is using them in an inappropriate and/or immoral manner.

They RELY on our voices. They RELY on us to use our voices.

If we feel the government is using OUR military in an appropriate manner, then we raise our voices up and say "yes, we support this action."

If we feel the government is using OUR military in an inappropriate manner, then we raise our voices up and say "NO, we do NOT support this action!"

Note I never said anything about supporting the troops or not. Supporting the troops = refusing to be silenced on their behalf. Not supporting everything the government does with OUR military, right or wrong.

What that veteran asked for was completely UN-American, and I bet there are veterans spinning in their graves to know there are veterans saying such things to kids.


My husband, father-in-law, grandfather and great-grandfather, all veterans, would strongly disagree with this guy.

... heard often enough... If we do not look out for our soldiers, who will? If we don't protest what we feel is their abuse, who will? I have never thought of it this way, thank you for pointing this out...

And it would be to follow in the step of Dr. Martin Luther King

No one ever sucessfully questioned his love for his country

shooting questions faster than he could throw back talking points. That's fucked up, right there... If not freedom, what can that man possibly claim to have fought for?

And the same meme survives "Do not ever protest in the streets against any war.".

Do not dissent with the slave man's plantation, or he'll throw you
in prison, destroy what he can of your life, and steal from you everything.
Millions of my brothers and sisters rot in prison, lives fucked with, unable
to speak out, the living buried slaves of the new evil slave empire.

Don't speak out! Don't champion freedom from slavery. Don't even think about it
little slaves... knuckle under or we'll throw you in prison.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1283288&mesg_id=1283288

But we were always allowed to get an opposing view from other vets who were actual patriots.

Don

didn't die for your right to free speech and the right to protest. Two things our Constitution protects, yet he supports and disobeys. He himself is actually a traitor to his own country by intimidating folks from freedoms and liberties he is supposed to protect. I think this guy should apologize to the school and the parents of every student.

When civilians take to the streets and protest a given military action, it does hurt the troops on the front lines because when you are sent anywhere on orders to accomplish a mission, you need to believe that you are being sent for good reasons, to perform a good job. A lot of my fellow Soldiers in Iraq feel like they're getting Blue Falconed at home, because a bunch of civilians are trying to paint them up as war criminals and baby killers.

The time to protest is at the ballot box.

Meanwhile, wave those flags and tell the troops you know they are doing the best job that they can. Because this is the truth, and even if you dislike the guy who sent them there, or dislike the politics behind it, you can still support the troops. Because it's not their fault they've been asked to do the near-impossible, under near-impossible conditions. Honor them for that, if nothing else.

And save your ire for those letters to the politicians, and keep your anger ready for the election days when you can make your displeasure known.

But all the protest marches and sit-ins and other showy stuff, has it changed anything? No. America is still in Iraq, and a lot of troops feel stuck because they feel like the folks at home don't have their back.

Notice, I am not telling anyone they don't have a right to protest. I don't think the vet at the school did either. I think what he is saying is that it's important in any war for Americans to show a united front, for the sake of the morale of the troops if nothing else. Parading our disagreement through the streets and demonizing each other, especially the soldiery, seems very often a pointless and harmfull exercise.

It's too bad there is no way for this to be debated internally, away from the eyes and ears of the troops and away from the international media. It really is not good for the many, real enemies of America (e.g: Islamists) to see how easily we are divided and how shaken our national resolved can get, if even after a few years.

I am not going to put on a public image of agreeing with this war just so the soldiers feel better about the job they're doing. I also don't believe at all that it somehow hurts our cause if we protest.

A war that is going to achieve its mission will do so regardless of whether or not the citizens of their own country are divided about it. Likewise if the mission will fail, it's not going to be because the protests of some people caused it to do so. Disagreement doesn't threaten a cause that way.

And I wholeheartedly disagree about "protesting at the ballot box," as you put it. I have always voted, and if I had the opportunity to do so I would have voted against the war specifically. Just because the candidate I voted for lost, that doesn't mean that I have to shut up about the decisions our government has made. I suspect you may be trolling, but I still had to speak up anyway. There is NO war that is so worthwhile that it trumps my right to freedom of speech. Aren't soldiers fighting so that we can have those rights? Why in the world would I give up those rights?

care if people were protesting their asses off here or waving flags stuck in every orifice of their body.

I don't buy that line of reasoning.

Nor did troops involved in Desert Storm have to re-deploy to Iraq again and again in that period.

Also, the protesting that went on in 1990-1991 was a mouse fart compared to the current protesting.

I am quite sure a lot of troops don't care what civilians at home think.

But a lot do, and a lot of troops feel like they are getting screwed both ways: sent to do a dirty job they might not agree with by a man many of them did not vote for, and then called war criminals by a bunch of civilians back home who can't differentiate their hate for Goerge Bush from the troops as a whole, who have no say over foreign or military policy.

It doesn't matter. It didn't matter to them one way or another. There are there to do a job.

You're buying into the idea that they are called nasty things when they get home. What's next, are you going to dredge up all the old urban legends about being spit upon? Even if someone WERE to call them a war criminal, all they'd have to say is that they were doing their job. That's the truth. Anyone who can't or won't see that isn't worth bothering with, anyway.

Come on. The troops who REALLY know what this country is about don't mind protests. Hell, I know a guy in Iraq right now who AGREES with them. He disagrees with this war. But he's in the Army for now, he has to do his job, so he does what he has to do. But he's glad there are people willing to speak up, and not just in letters to Congress critters, either.

And I've not even been deployed to Iraq. Yet.

I'm not saying that all the troops agree or disagree with the idea that invading Iraq was a mistake.

What I am saying is that we have people here at home who apparently feel it is their place to paint with a very broad brush, thus not only Bush is hated, but recruiters are hated, ROTC is hated, and ordinary Reservists like me can be labeled a "killer" and "rapist" simply because I am in the Reserve.

Maybe it's that I work in Seattle and go to school on Capitol Hill. Soldier-hating is sport up there. But still, what the fuck is wrong with some people that they think it's both right and justified to tell troops they are war criminals, just because the guy in the White House is a "war criminal"?

"What I am saying is that we have people here at home who apparently feel it is their place to paint with a very broad brush, thus not only Bush is hated, but recruiters are hated, ROTC is hated, and ordinary Reservists like me can be labeled a "killer" and "rapist" simply because I am in the Reserve."

There are going to be people like that in every area of life. You can't stop that.

And ftr, thanks for your service. I don't agree with this war (far from it) but I recognize that the military is just a tool that the current government is using in an immoral manner. THAT is what I protest. The soldiers can't do a damn thing about it. See my post a bit higher in this thread for more on that topic.

In fact, I get quite hot under the collar at these people who yell about supporting the war in one breath (and most have never served!) and turn around and support cutting VA benefits in the next breath. Fuckers. Veterans shouldn't EVER have to worry about medical coverage, prescriptions, mental health counseling, none of that stuff. Veterans should never be living on the street.

Sorry, got off on a tangent. I just bristle at the suggestion that people shouldn't protest. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression is something I take very seriously as an American, despite how it might make some troops feel. Hopefully they will know it is the government's actions I am protesting and not the military itself. But how the military is being USED.

So I wonder what happened to the Marine who marched in dress uniform in DC last Sept 24. Lets see...there were at least 500,000 of us. I watched him before the march as we were listening to speeches and the Marine received tons of respect and a hell of a lot of "thank-yous".

There are several vets who march against the war here in Portland and they get nothing but respect. I was still in the reserves when we first waged war on Iraq and I never once was treated disrespectfully when I was in uniform, which BTW, my working uniform was BDUs. At the time I was doing quite a bit of work for the Navy in the Port Townsend area and never once was treated disrespectfully. Last time I checked, Portland and Port Townsend are no becons of conservatism.

If what you're saying is true, if you have been treated disrespectfully while in uniform, I would suggest that they are not responding to your uniform, but perhaps they are responding to YOU.

I'm calling bullshit on your post.

Why would you join the military then, to protect a constitution you do not believe in...? It doesn't really matter how you feel about this personally, it only matters what our constitution says, the same constitution you took an oat to protect and defend... It's not up to you to make the rules, only to protect them...

How many times have I heard a cop say that he thinks pot should be legal but nevertheless, he must continue to arrest users because that is his job and what the law says...?

If you do not believe in protest and free speech during war or any other time, for the love of God then, why would you join the United States Military?

is not the people at home that are trying to bring our servicemembers back that are affecting their morale to a great extent; rather it is the exposure of the lies that got them there that has a far greater effect.

Morale is down because the soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines realize they have been duped by a crooked administration. Their CiC is to blame for the deaths and the maiming that is destroying the ranks. They cannot get the proper equipment because of poor planning and acquisition; when they try to improvise to protect themselves, (improvisation has always been a hallmark of our military), they face Courts Martial. Newer Kevlar "flak jackets" are denied them, even when sent from concerned relatives at home...is this something that those of us here who want them home in one piece responsible for?

No greater morale breaker exists than when you find out you are being used as a political pawn in the scheme of a deranged commander. These men and women went to war to find Osama Bin Laden, and bring him to the world as a terrorist...yet bush says he doesn't care where bin Laden is :wtf: That alone destroyed his credibility w/the troops. They know they are there for possibly years to come, w/o any thought from the administration as to just HOW they are to remain deployed for extended periods of time.

All we want is for them to come home, if anything, that should boost morale.

No thanks pal.

Don

:kick: