Kerik was a hero of 9/11.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/26/kerik.investigation.ap/index.html

Grand jury eyes 9/11 hero Kerik


Bull fucking shit he was. This brings up another point about 9/11 and the response. Why were all those police officers idolized after 9/11? I mean I can understand the firefighters, they actually went up in the buildings. But the police? They didn't do shit. They did their fucking jobs. We are supposed to hold them up on a pedestal because of that? Only 23 NYC police died on 9/11. Some how the police were immortalized into some kind of super-patriots and not just the NYC police but police everywhere for the efforts of a few on 9/11 in NYC, I don't buy it. It's become part of this culture where no citizen can criticize those who would oppress us. Just the same way that not supporting Bush's Iraq agenda is the same as not "Supporting the Troops" The fucking U.S. military received $477 billion in fiscal year 2005 and they really need my support? Give me a fucking break! And don't give me that, "We lost in Viet Nam because there was no support at home" bull shit either. "Support the Troops" equates to loyalty and obedience to the current Bush fascist junta. The rest of you can bow down if you wish, I never will.

http://64.177.207.201/static/budget/annual/fy05/

Definitely NOT my favorite person.

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Especially when its use was donated for rescue workers to rest, not for Kerik to have sex. Some hero.

I used to have quite a few bookmarks on Kerik and his misuse of government funds. Computer died. I'll manage to get that information out of the old computer.

:eyes:

post at the same time, NYCGirl.

:hi:

I'm sure no one will be building the Iraqis any memorials anytime soon.

How does that work? Oh, and it's offensive, too.

If you can't see that 9/11 gave Bushco carte blanche to go into Iraq, well then i don't know what to say. I for got American lives are "worth more" than anybody else's especially if they are a cop or a firefighter.

do with the NYC policemen? Did they tell him to invade?

Look at the false patriotism that is a result of 9/11. Look at where it has gotten us. Killing, killing, and more killing. Could Bush have invaded Iraq if it weren't for 9/11? Look at all the people who have vilified me on this board because I said I choose not to deify the police, because in my opinion most police abuse their power.

is completely misplaced, IMO.

but I don't agree with you. Obviously you have had some interactions with bad cops, and a bad cop is a dangerous person, it is true.

I don't think the patriotism after 911 was false. We we blindly attacked going about our daily work and the 3K dead are just the tip of the iceberg. There are a lot of folks walking around NYC today very different from the ones they were on 9/10.

Of course it got us killing. Killing begets killing. Violence breeds violence. It always has and it always will. I don't defend going into Iraq, but I understand it. It was vengance, pure and simple. Cowboy justice. Somebody had to die for it. (In the opinion of the men who run the government and many, many citizens.) Would I personally have opted for turning the other cheek? Yes. But when has that ever happened?

But the cops had nothing to do with it in my opinion.

ARE worth more. If you are an American. Your philosophy would be wonderful if it could be perpetuated, but it flies in the face of human nature.

Nationalism happens and it doesn't look like it is going away any time soon.

officers by comparing it to iraqis that have been killed in a war the nypd had nothing to do with. I agree Kerik is a total scumbag but that doesn't mean his shit rolls downhill onto the officers that worked during his tenure.

Seems like a lot to me.

but they don't represent the police. Ghouliani fired the guy really responsible for decreasing crime because he didn't like him taking attention away . and then the Ghoul took the credit for himself and Kerik is his bitch.

you might get some flack for this one.

While I can in no way support with facts any argument pro/anti Kerick...

...you should go sparingly when crapping on the entire NYPD, especially concerning the day of Sept11.01. I was there (here) in NYC, and you have no idea---unless you're saying you do?---of the atmosphere here and the million tales of heroism there were that day and in the aftermath. All NYers were part of it, and the police certainly shouldered a huge part of the load.

As I said: no problem with debating Kerik. I want to follow that part, and learn something myself. But I gotta speak up on that uniform-comparison you're making concerning this city. Please don't make those sweeping generalizations.

Thanks for listening,
Drum

the police do a dirty and thankless job and some of them die for it. They deal with the dregs of society and they spend their lives helping people. I have had my life saved by a cop. I respect them, and 23 is a heartbreaking number. Each one had family that mourns them.

I don't care for Kerik, either, but have no problems with Guliani. Unless he tries to run for President, that is.

Involved in abusing women and make their own rules.

I work with a lot of officers in my schools and my son works with them as a medic, and the cops around here are very good guys. Most of them have at least a college degree, many have Master's. I am sure there are a few bad apples, the the basket in general is something to be proud of.

any credibility he had was squandered during the 2004 convention.

never mind his personal life.

"I mean I can understand the firefighters, they actually went up in the buildings. But the police? They didn't do shit. They did their fucking jobs. We are supposed to hold them up on a pedestal because of that?"

So... it's okay to immortalize the firefighters for doing their job (which is to run into burning buildings) and not the police? According to your argument, the firefighters were just doing their fucking jobs too.

Now I understand the hostility toward Kerik... but don't bring down all the police because of the actions of one man.

But "Only 23 NYC police died on 9/11."?????

I see and appreciate the point you're making here, but that comment is a bit much. We should mourn every one of those cops, and everyone else killed that day.

I've never subscribed to this "fallen heroes" mania, but those dead cops deserve at least our respect and our good wishes for their immortal souls.

As my New Yorker wife would put it: Just sayin' is all.

ON EDIT: Kerik is a scumbag. On that I think we're in complete agreement.

effort at the WTC. Sadly, it ended up being a body recovery effort. Policemen were among those who were down in that pit looking for the victims, and thereby became victims themselves.
One of them died recently, at the age of 37, from the respiratory damage he got while working at the site.
Those that climbed up the stairs and lost their lives in the collapse of the towers were not the only heroes of 9/11. Many of the heroes were those that worked in the aftermath of the collapse.

Port Authority and NYPD and many died.

Now I understand why you'd find fault with Kerik, but why are you blasting the hardworking rank and file?

We are still aloud that in this country? I don't particularly like cops and I was disgusted that they were being deified after 9/11. Do I have to like cops to be an American citizen? Let me tell you a story, just two days ago I was walking the mile and a half to work. I walked to the end of my driveway when a police car flew right by me. I didn't think anything of it I see cops here all the time. Anyway, I was about a block away from my house about to cross a park on my normal route down to town. The same cop, now with back up, pulls up to the stop sign at the intersection I was approaching. He gets out of his car and walks up to me, with no explanation he starts rifling off questions, who am I? What is my name? Where do i live? What am I doing here? What is my SS#? So I tell him all this and ask him what this is all about. He says that somebody reported a suspicious person report. In the area about a block(1/4 mile away). So he let's me go and I proceed to walk to work. In the mean time I start feeling as if my civil rights had been violated. When the cop left he proceeded up the hill and toward my house(the driveway where the cop initially saw me.) I do not know if this cop performed a warrant-less search at my house, in my yard or not. So I got to work and called the captain of the station nearest my community. He was less than sympathetic, he couldn't understand how I would feel like my rights had been trampled on. He then said that he found it suspicious that I was calling and saying such things. I told him that I was concerned that per haps that cop had searched my property illegally. He used the argument, well "what do you have to hide?" and said that I was acting suspiciously in that I called to express my concerns. The suspicious persons report was bullshit in my opinion, I was merely stopped because I emerged from my driveway when that cop happened to be passing and I was walking. The captain told me the description of the person in the report and the only thing matching was that I had a black backpack. So? Is it fascism yet? What was I doing? I was walking down the street. So no, I am not particularly fond of cops.

shared by the police, the poor, and communities of color. Those in the comfortable affluent suburbs might actually see them as their protectors, many more see them as the people who turned them back on that bridge from Gretna. Something to think about.

And it is tragic that people died on that day. However what about all the other nationalities that died on 9/11? Does America own 9/11? What about the victims bodies who weren't given preferential treatment when they were found at ground zero? I guess cops are just better than us regular citizens. I know the cops think so.

I would never do what they do. They are out in the heat, the sun, the rain, snow, wearing heavy vests, encumbered by all sorts of protocol, knowing that at any moment their kids could become mother or fatherless. They have to stay polite even when being called names and spit on. They see the worst of the worst every day.

Yes, they are better than I am. Way better. My hat is off to them.

to have an opinion and state it. No one here has trashed you. But they have disagreed with your opinion. And if you are going to write posts like that you are going to have to deal with the strong response you get.

I am sorry you feel you had your rights trampled upon. It is a helpless feeling. But it had nothing to do with 23 cops who lost their lives doing their job.

What a disgusting comment to make. Only 23 police officers died so they do not deserve credit for putting their lives on the line every day for your protection? It took an event of that magnitude to remind everyone that the police and firefighters are heroes every fucking day in a thankless job. Without the police people like you would be getting rolled over by the thugs of society on a continuous basis. The next time you need help don't bother calling the "oppressors", you aren't worthy of their protection. With comments like this there is no wonder that we get labeled as the "loony left".

Let me guess... you are a police officer?

I'm not 5-0, or any other such uniformed profession...dunno about anybody else here.

Take it easy. Nobody can tell from your original post, what your experiences have been where you live. We only comment based on what we post for others to see, and nobody saw that coming. I know you started this thread with another topic in mind, and the debate is respectable. Other issues can be hard to separate when we're passionate in our stances, but in the name of democracy, we try to argue each issue itself without muddying the waters. Our rights are to say what we believe, and to argue our points. The other side of the coin is the responsibility to listen to each other and to not fly off the handle. People here don't want to beat each other up...we come here to engage with diversity, to learn, and to find common ground. For that, everybody's gotta give and get. Acknowledge your big generalizations, understand that we don't know your backstory, and listen to wiser folks than me here who have a lot to teach.


B-)

And your attitude is ridiculous, disgusting and shameful. I just hope when you need one of them they aren't there for you.

And I read your story. Sounds to me like you are hyper sensitive and have no clue what a police officer's job is. I had an experience similar to yours except worse. I stopped home while working the polls on election day about ten years ago, just stopped in to grab something, and on my way back to my friend's car a policeman pulled up beside me, looked me up and down, got out and asked me to stop and remain where I was, put my hands on the car in front of me and frisked me. He then proceeded to cuff me up and start asking questions. Turns out some kid that lived behind me shot his girlfriend and then gave my description to the police. Fortunately the little punk didn't have the guts to go through with the frame job and shook his head no when another police car drove by with him in it and he was asked if it was me that did the crime. The officer then uncuffed me and let me go. I then thanked the officer for doing his job. You see, even though I had nothing to do with any crime, I never once felt that the guy was out of line or that my rights were violated. He was doing what he had to do. If you happen to be in an area where the police are actively searching for a perp you are going to be asked questions and rightly so. These guys have a very dangerous job and the streets are worse than ever, they don't know who you are, if you have a weapon or what you are likely to do so they simply must act with an aggressive attitude. No harm was done to you nor do you have any evidence of an illegal search. I think you overreacted to a nothing situation and are simply blinded by an irrational hatred of the police.

Have a nice holiday.

You call my attitude disgusting and shameful, yet if I were shot in the street you would wish that a police officer not respond. You are a real humanitarian, you really are.

oh and i was cuffed at the time too.

who was on duty on 9-11,I am enraged.

The fireman were doing what they were being paid to do,as were the police officers.Police officers do not go into buildings and put out fires.

Including the very well paid Port Authority police, 60 police officers died on 9-11.

My son is okay but he didn't see his family for 35 hours as he worked through the night and next day.

Shame on you !

as are the ones who disagree with you.

How the heck do you know what they did?

It was mean-spirited and juvenile.

That I acquiesce and sing the praises of the NYC police on 9/11? I was really creeped out how after 9/11 all police everywhere were some kind of super-patriots, not just those in NYC on 9/11. I have my own heroes and none of them wear a uniform.

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you are being responded to because you basically shit all over men who died doing their duties.

What more can we ask of people?

We are all entitled to our heros. Many of mine wear uniforms. Some wear white collars. Some wear white coats.

Police work is very, very difficult in many ways.

And beleive me cops are the opressors. Good luck people. You damn sure are going to need it.

But you're drifting into the ether here. My formative years were in an era when cops were routinely described by people whose opinions I trusted - and still do - as 'pigs'. But you're comparing citrus fruits to Granny Smiths here.

Who were the cops who died on September 11th oppressing? Seems to me they were doing what decent people should have done under the circumstances, whether paid to or not: trying to help.

Again, your initial premise of debunking Kerik was dead on. The collateral attack on 23 dead cops was not.

I'm still hoping to levitate the goddamned Pentagon and spike the reservoirs with acid, but I can't sign on to crapping on anybody who died that day, rich, poor, white, black, Republican, Democrat, American, foreign or otherwise.

You're painting yourself into a corner here, and I like you too much to sit by and watch you do it.

Kerik is being called a hero of 9/11. Why? That guy is a scumbag same with Guiliani. I don't know if those cops were heroic or not. Does that make somebody a hero merely because they no longer exist? If you want to call them heroes be my guest, I am just not one to jump on this patriotic bandwagon when the outcome of such patriotism is the death of innocent people who had nothing to do with that day.

The cops had the image problem (Abner Louima), and the firemen fixed it by getting slaughtered on 9/11.

Kerik is a hero to the junta for keep his mouth shut about what really went down that day, or in other words, for selling out every cop, fireman, and citizen in NYC.

And I think I got your point just fine, as I've said twice now. I'm just trying to point out that in pursuit of your admirable goal of pointing out that Kerik, far from being a hero by any definition, is an utter fraud, you slagged off 23 people who died that day.

Where we differ is that I don't feel minimizing 23 deaths contributes to the point you were trying to make. And, as you can see by some of the responses you've elicited here, some people find this powerfully offensive. The discussion is not centering on Kerik, as it should if I read your original intent right; it's centering on the collateral comment about 23 dead police officers. I don't think that's the discussion you intended to start, and it certainly is not the discussion this has turned out to be.

If someone tried to rhetorically minimize the Kent State shootings by saying "only 4 students were killed that day", I would hit the roof myself. I think that's why your comment about the cops may well turn this thread into a flamefest.

And to reiterate, I stand firmly with you on what I know are your political and social opinions (based on your posts here), but you crossed a line with this one remark that a lot of people aren't going to forgive you for here. I will and I do, but some or many will not.

It would be impossible for me to do that even if that was my objective, which it is not. I merely don't feel the same way about death. I was speaking of their actions in life. Per haps they did act out in ways that some people may deem as heroic. I don't know. Death is inevitable. How do you qualify somebody's death? Is one person's death more important if that death was the result of them trying to save somebody else's life? What of the life they were trying to save? Is it less valuable than the person who was trying to save them? The person trying to save them didn't think so. Why do we say that an infant who dies in a car accident "died a tragic death" because they were "so young"? Why is it preferable to die in ones sleep at the end of a long life? Death is an inevitability. We must all deal with it in our own personal way. Qualifying peoples importance in the manor in which they died sounds a lot like "playing god" to me.

railing against sentiment that is universal and ancient.

“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

A person who puts their own life in danger in order to save someone else moves ahead in the death pecking order, according to virtually every culture in the world. It is universally seen as heroic.

It does not make them more important but it garners them respect.

people like Bush, Cheney, Kerik and the rest have actually come to believe the myths they've created about themselves . . .

and that's one hell of a dangerous state of affairs for the rest of us, imo . . .

I'm not going to defend Kerik. He's a slimebag but those rank and file cops who went into those buildings to rescue people are heroes.

By the way, one of the reasons that fewer cops than firemen died in the World Trade Center is that the cops radios did not connect with the firefighters radios. A police chopper saw the towers leaning and the police were called out of the buildings. The fire department did not know about the danger until too late.

You may have a beef with the cops. You may see them as instruments of the opressors. Fine, but to malign people who risked their lives to save others is frankly disgusting.

By the way, how much is Karl paying you to post on this board?

That's the popular slogan -- the NYPD are NY's Finest, the NYFD are NY's Bravest and the NY Sanitation are NY's Strongest.

But back to the NYPD. I used to really dislike and fear the police, especially during the Giuliani administration, when tens of thousands of black and hispanic men (including yours truly) were "tossed," that is stopped and frisked without probable cause.

But you have to understand that the NYPD is a big, very political organization, in which a lot of political struggles about the future of the force are taking place.

Beginning in the Dinkins administration, there was a big push to recruit African America, Latino, Asian and women police, and that really began to change the nature of the police department. Although Giuliani was a racist who opposed these changes and enabled the worst elements and attitudes of the police department to rule, the trend toward a diverse police department whose officers are comfortable in the communities they protect continued, and this has accelerated under Bloomberg. Overall, I find these young, diverse officers to be very polite, helpful and non-threatening.

But this struggle has been going on for years. I grew up with several high ranking African American police officers as relatives and neighbors, and I was often astounded by how progressive they were and how conscious they were that they were in a struggle to transform the police department and its relationship to the community -- and this was back in the 60s and 70s. Most of the African American police officials I have known are far to the left of the average DUer. Since then organizations like 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement have helped completely change the police department, but the struggle continues.

So please don't equate sleazeback Kerik with the NYPD in general.

In my subject, I said the NYPD is becoming NY's Finest. They are not there completely yet, but the struggle continues.

And as for 9/11, having been in lower Manhattan that day, I have no doubt that the police acted as heroes, as much as the fire department members.

Locking as flame bait.