Are Republicans "Outraged by the Outrage" over Habitha?

Maybe someone should ask Senator Inhofe if he is "Outraged by the Outrage"? Maybe all Republicans should be asked that question. Do you believe they have even one ounce of humanity left?

than me. Hell I made half of my post count on threads bashing the fake and piece of shit poser Jesse MacBeth. Really ripped him a new one.

I am truly shocked about this story accusing the Marines of the massacre of civilians. I pray that it is not true and if it is THOSE Marines every single punishment coming to them. I will in no way defend their actions.

If this is true, I will be as outraged at those Marines as I am at the insurgents killing children with their car bombs.

How many have we killed and just how big is their army? Should we know this information or would that be "aiding the enemy"? How much "colaterial damage" is acceptable? How many women and children must die or be maimed for life? How fine is the line between Habitha and SOP throughout the land? Is the killing going on in Iraq justifiable? Every person on earth should be "OUTRAGED" but Republicans only seem "Outraged at the Outrage" Why is that do you think?

being made targets. If the intent is to kill innocent children and civilians, I AM OUTRAGED by that. No matter who does the killing. It is not justifiable just because Bush ivaded Iraq for insurgents to target civilians just as it is not justifiable for American troop to intentionally target civilians.

From your post I gather that only the dead at the hands of Americans are worthy of your outrage. It seems strage that you should feel this way.

The USA is the reason for the killing. It is hard to deny that.

but I do not use it as a justification that killing civilians by insurgents is okay, but killing by US troops is not.

Are you saying that it is?

But I take it it is justifiable for us to be there killing people that never did anything to us?

I am not in favor of the war. But I will not be outraged at US troops for killing innocents and give the insurgents a pass as you are.

and we need to get the hell out of Iraq, yesterday. That country will never be "democratized". It's a region that knows and has known, nothing but totalitarianism from time immemorial. Further more, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that whole premise is a fucking lie. And the lives lost, American and Iraqi, have been thrown away for nothing, except perhaps the enrichment of Halliburton.

They can't be bothered to research what's actually going on so they try to simplify.

The story was simple at first: "the Sunnis" (nevermind that most Iraqi Sunni's are Kurds; they aren't included in the phrase "the Sunnis") hated us and feared the shi'ites. So they attacked US troops. Sunnis bad, Shi'ites good, Kurds up in the north getting fucked over as always.

It got a little more complex then... some of the Shi'ites were "bad" since they were attacking US troops too. This really just seems to have confused a lot of talking heads. It confused them even more when these Shi'ites were the crucial deciding block in forming the Iraqi government.

From the perspective of a jarhead who got out just after "Mission Accomplished" but tries to keep up with what's going on, the MSM has, by over-simplifying, made the story needlessly opaque. It's something like this:

1. Sunni Arabs are, for the most part, getting killed or driven out of Shi'ite-controlled regions of Iraq. Kurds are being pushed out a bit more gently.

2. The term "Iraqi police" is a euphemism for a region's strongest armed faction. The government set-up essentially guaranteed a monopoly of arms to one faction per province (these are called "police"), with two "free agent" factions, Mehdi and a Sunni one whose name I forget (but they're some tough bastards) -- these two factions are who is getting called "militia".

3. Despite what you may think, getting the Americans out is nobody's number 1 priority and everybody's number 2 priority. Number 1 is suppressing rival armed Iraqi groups -- and since we are helping in doing that there's a certain degree of grudging tolerance from the groups in power in a given region -- but confusingly, these are different groups in different areas, so we are essentially propping up Shi'ite death squads with our left hand while propping up Sunni death squads with our right. Each death squad we are propping up is willing to play nice for as long as we're willing to pay them. One of my buddies suggested we're trying to maintain a permanent civil war, and there may be something to that.

That describes the largest slice of the violence pie: Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence under vague color of state sanction. But in the midst of all this, there's also bunch of pan-Islamist nutjobs (they get called "al Qaeda", somewhat inaccurately) running around with this neo-nihilist vision of reinstating the caliphate by engaging in as much widespread destruction as possible -- a sort of Dada guerrilla warfare. These, for the most part, are the people bombing Americans and Iraqis, though the past few months have seen the "unarmed" half of some of the provinces take up those tactics also.

Calling armed resistance against the US and the Iraqi government "the insurgency" is what's so misleading. It's not one ethnic or religious or political group; it's everyone who is not in power, and about a third of those who are. And, bizarrely, the same groups that we are allies with in one place are trying to kill us in another, even if those two groups in those two places are themselves allied.

It boggles the mind sometimes.

You put soldiers and marines in the kind of situation they're in there and shit happens. Bad, nasty shit. Many are traumatized by seeing things none of us should have to see. Many have watched their friends and squad mates torn to pieces by bombs and haven't been able to strike back at those responsible. Many are shocked into insensitivity by too much death and yet are forced to continue fighting.

This kind of thing is inevitable. Not only because it's war, and atrocities go with war like carrion and crows, but because this is the most brutal kind of war.

You want to blame someone? Blame the assholes who put them there. Not that the marines are blameless, but they didn't go into a neighborhood here and shoot it up for kicks. They're being turned into something inhuman, and it's all this regime's fault.

no blame placed on the insurgents for targeting children and civilians from you. I guess it is okay for them to do it, then.

I'm not sure if there's a way to explain this without sounding like an asshole, but I'll try. The soldiers that are over there are our brothers, friends, neighbors. We're not outraged simply because civilians died, but because our blood, our friends killed them. We're worried for what that means for them when they come back, and what that means for us as a country, as we try to hold onto what we have left of our concept of being the "good guys."

Did that make any sense?

There is a civil war going on in Iraq between rival religious factions. The so-called "insurgents" are Iraqis resisting American occupation.

The fault for any deaths in Iraq lies squarely with our administration. Our invasion destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and the result was anarchy. Take away law enforcement in the US, and watch how long before rival gangs make the violence in Iraq look like child's play.

There is much factional fighting in Iraq and there have been hundreds of attacks on innocent people.

Are you being obtuse or do you really believe what you posted?

The insurgency targets coalition forces.

in which many many civilians are killed?

Do you consider Iraqi police "coalition forces"? They could be seen as collaborators, but not the civilians that just happen to be in the area.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but if you are holding up the Iraqi resistance as a model of civilized warfare, you will fail miserably.

I think your viewpoint is a bit skewed.

and do recon ahead of time to be sure a minimum number of civilians are present.

IMO your assessment of their resources is skewed. We can't use that excuse.

Now you say they don't have enough resources to not target civilians.

It seems you think there is an army of noble warriors known as the "insurgents," who never target civilians and are fighting only for Iraqi independence. That's a nice simplistic idea, but it's not the truth.

If you've read a few of my posts, you know I am strongly against this war and in favor of harsh punishment for American war crimes. So please, don't try to say I'm defending American atrocities, I'm not. But please don't feed me this bull about the chivalrous insurgents who never attack civilians.

A quick google search reveals hundreds of attacks by Iraqis on Iraqi civilians. According to you, none of these attacks was by "insurgents," but by relgious factions. I suppose none of your "insurgents" belong to any of these religious factions. I'm thinking that your noble freedom fighters that never target civilians is a pretty small group.

First you said they never target civilians.

Then you said they target some civilians only (Iraqi police).

Now you say they don't have the resources to not target civilians.

Whatever.

I'm glad someone here knows the truth. You must have spent time in Iraq relating to civilians and insurgents alike. Please share some of your experiences, and what would be the purpose of insurgents wantonly killing civilians. Also explain why "insurgents" should not consider the Iraqi police as co-conspirators in an illegitimate government (i.e., not civilians at all).

Like this?


WE stirred up the hornet's nest.
"Insurgents" are well within their moral rights.

into that civil war???

and what iraqi's do to each other is not the point here...

the point is..our soldiers went into a community and killed ..murdered innocent civilians for revenge..don't play the republican bullshit talking points here ..it will not wash...

our soldiers killed innocent women and children..they murderered them..in cold blood..period... the end of story..and then our pentagon or generals or someone in our government played the white wash.. cover up game...

this is not the America i have known and loved..in fact i am disgusted with my fellow americans who are not outraged by this..or americans that play the bullshit.. blame it on anyone else.fucking bullshit game ..but where the guilt lays...is the soldiers involved in this murder and this administration who tried to cover it up..and i am more than disgusted by the murderers in this white house that started this war of murder, lies and nothing but crime!


now get this and get it good..there is no excuse for our soldiers to murder innocent civilians ..women and children...period..none ..zip... zilch ..and there never will be an excuse!

fly

US troops targetting and murdering innocent civilians. I never have. I find the murder of civilians atrocious and whoever does it should be punished. But it appears that the only civilians worthy of outrage to some people are the ones killed by US troops since no outrage is directed at insurgents when they do it.

intentionally targeted civilians? Hmm?

mosques are not full of American troops. And these have been blown up with worshipers in them by Insurgents.

I do not only say this because I saw it on TV or the internet. I drove by some of those blown up mosques when they were still smoking.

Mosques are being blown up by rival religious factions in Iraq. These attacks have absolutely nothing to do with the people attacking American troops or Iraqi security forces (what you're calling "insurgents").

if they don't have a label?

that your tax dollars paid the Marines who murdered those kids?

just as I have condemned the Insurgents or whoever it is killing innocent civilians and kids. You on the other hand only care about the ones killed by Americans.

Nobody here thinks it is okay for anyone to kill anyone. We have been against this humongous blunder since before it started. Why do you persist in your beliefs people here think killing by anyone is okay? The point people have made over and over again but you refuse to get is there would be no killing if we had not gone over there. There was none going on before US forces arrived. The US and the way our Armed Forces operates is what has fueled the violence. None of the reasons given for going into Iraq have proved to be correct. It is now and has always been against American Policy/Law to attack another country just to change their government when we had not been attacked. American atrocities are going to just get worse the longer we stay. And yes so will the Iraqis. War or mass killing creates these things. We don't condone the Iraqi people for their part but what you need to understand is it would not be happening except for the USA. If yoyu are so concerned about civilians killing civilians why are you not spouting off about Darfur and Haiti and other countries with "black people" killing each other? Why does not the USA send in the Marines to stop the killing? Far more people have been killied in Rowanda and Darfur than ever were in Iraq. Why don't we "Democratize" them?

and still manage to take all of the blame for insurgents killing people and lay it at the hands of the coalition and US Troops for being there in the first place.

You see, to me, even if we did illegally invade Iraq, even if we are occupying a country illiegally, that does not excuse the insurgents from kiling the civilians. In the end it is them who decide where to place the bomb and whether to set it off or not.

you defended your homeland ..with said road bombs or ied's or your revolver...would you then be an insurgent??
because i think its damn sick to call people fighting for their own nation against us as the occupier to be called insurgents..an insurgent is an outsider ..is the way i have always thought the definition of an insurgent!

i am damn sick of the people of iraq defending their homeland being called insurgents..as far as i can tell we are the dang insurgents!

fly

think happens (and did happen as we know from the video and photos of the aftermath) to innocent civilians when a major superpower targets a major city with days and days of bombing? You are not consistent in your outrage it seems to me. I opposed this war, as did most people on this board, because I am consistently outraged by the killing of innocent civilians. I am even more outraged when it done by a country that I thought would never lie to its own people or attack a country that was never a threat to its security.

You seem determined to put project your own inconsistency as to when it's okay to kill innocent civilians and when it's not, onto others. Sorry, but you're not making any headway with this argument despite the numerous times you have attempted to do so. You are presenting the neocon argument. 'It's okay if we drop bombs on a large city with a civilian population but it's a crime if someone else kills innocent civilians'.

Bush and his cabal havelost the moral authority to condemn anyone else for civilian deaths. The sad thing is he has lost it for the entire country. The world laughs now, when they hear America talk about 'insurgents killing civilians'. That is probably the worst crime against the American people this administration is responsible for. So, you'll have to forgive people if they don't buy the 'outrage at civilian deaths' from any of us now, when the finger is pointed elsewhere. That's where your outrage should be directed, imo.

from your own post, civilians killed by religious factions for religious reasons are justified? Or they just don't matter unless US forces kill them.

from car bombs set off by civilians? Let me ask you, have you been there? I was. Of course I am supposed to believe what is posted on the internet and not what I saw with my own eyes.

in fact you were an uninvited intruder to the iraq sovereignty..is the way i see it ..in fact i believe anyone in iraq , that is not iraqi is a war criminal!anyone carrying a gun who is non iraqi is a war criminal..and anyone imposing their will upon the iraqi's is a war criminal..there was no justification for this illegal war..none!

and carrying out the lies that this administration perpetrated against a soverign nation! and her people!

if the iraqi's want a democracy, well then thats their own damn business..

just like it was our business if we became an democracy or republic..it must be fought for by the people ..it must be their own wish...either by revolution or their own means..if they choose to be a theocracy..thats their business as well....its their country not ours!

but that may be a news flash to little lord pissy pants who thinks he runs the world now with his fucking new world order .. fucked up PNAC plans!

but tell that to little lord pissy pants..but you might be wasting your time, because i do not believe pissy pants ever read a fucking history book!

no democracy can be forced on a people..they must want it and fight for it..and protect..as it is a very fragile " idea " and ideal.....

it is not our place to impose our will on the Iraqi people!

that would be really fucked up...after all fucking little lord pissy pants said he was bringing freedom to the iraqi's in his 100th excuse for his war of lies!

fly

to being the first person I've ever put on ignore here.

You ever say something this stupid to me again, you will be.

you already ignore innocent civilians killed by insurgents.

Let us remind ourselves that NONE of these people would be dying right now had we not marched in there and "liberated" them.

Of course it's fucked up that civilians are being killed by the insurgents and other factions--some representing the allegedly "legitimate" government, btw--but we must also be aware that none of this would be happening at all if not for our interference.

And that we predicted this shit long before the invasion. Too bad no one with any influence LISTENED to us.

come on ...why are there insurgents?? why are there insurgents killing anyone??

there is no excuse for our soldiers murdering innocent civilians..you can bullshit all you want..,there is no excuse..got it??

its against all international law, geneva conventions and all other conventions world wide...do you get that??

i don;'t give a rats ass who else commits murder..our soldiers are not given carte blanche to murder..is there some part of that you do not get??

not for frustrations, anger or revenge...do you get that??

if not than you are not american in my book..you are simply, and pathetically trying to make excuses for cold blooded murder!

fly

P.S. there would be no insurgency if it wasn't for this illegal war , and secondly for the utter failure of this lying fucking sick administration..but that will never excuse our soldiers committing murder!

from a foreign invasion. They are not targeting civilians.

nation fighting for their survival of an occupying nation that took them to war based on lies!

they are a people in a civil war that we ..the USA.. put upon them!

fly

they are killing children and innocent civilians. You know, the same kind of innocent civilians and children that you don't care about unless they are killed by Americans.

I am outraged when it happens, no matter who does it.

and innocent civilians. Seems preposterous--and it is. So maybe they aren't targeting civilians. Maybe sometimes they're targeting coalition forces and civilians get killed. Maybe sometimes they are religious fanatics involved in a civil war, a power struggle, touched off by our invasion.

In either case, the buck stops with W.

If you are outraged at American collateral damage, do you not care about the civilians killed by insurgents collaterally?

I care more about the collateral damage being done in my name and with my tax dollars.

for their own and their childrens lives and our troops shoot them in the brain and kill them in cold blood ..that is no damn collateral damage..that is cold blooded murder!]

when a woman is kneeling begging for her childs life and she and the child are shot point blank in the head..thats no damned collateral damage!
thats fucking murder!

go sell your bullshit to the dumb assed republicans ..they will eat up your bullshit..any excuse they can get for the fucking blood on their hands ..they will love your talking points of crap!
fly

outside of mosques are accidents?

I am not defending American soldiers targeting civilians, but you are completely ignoring the innocents dying at the hands of insurgents.

that the targets are coalition forces or sympathizers thereof, at least as far as "insurgents" are concerned. Oh yes--there's a religious civil war which we can also take credit for.

and why do the iraqi's have a civil war now??

oh yeah its because W started an illegal war of lies..seems you are still buying the fucking lies!

fly

got that? Aside from out degree of responsiblility for the deaths caused by the Iraqis, WE are responsible for the acts of our forces. And the claim that demanding accoutablility for OUR forces is somehow illegitimate if every mention of OUR atrocities is not accompanied by a rote condemnation of the deaths caused by Iraqis is a right-wing talking point that is as tired as it is stupid and illegitimate.

but if it the fact that our forces did it that outrage you so much, then say so, don't wail and claw at yourself about "those poor civilians" unless you care about all of them, which I do.

and ask that they be judged equally? Do you think so little of the US military that you expect us to judge them against what you describe as criminals? Why would anyone expect criminals to do anything BUT murder? We do not think of the troops this way.

People here think more of our military than to compare them to those criminals who were unleased on the Iraqi people by the cabal who illegally launched this war. Anyone who loves this country would never use criminals to compare our troops' actions to as you are doing. I'm surprised that you, who say you were a Army Ranger would do so.

The overwhelming majority of the troops would never, ever do what is being alleged these few did in Haditha ~ to ask for outrage equal to what Americans feel when some of our troops act like the thugs you talk about is simply ludicrous.

I spoke to a Iraq veteran recently and he is outraged by those responsible for Abu Ghraib. He told me that that scandal made his job in Iraq so difficult and enraged the Iraqi people with whom he had become friends so much that it became difficult to know who was a friend anymore. He also said he understand how they must feel. He called the perpetrators 'traitors' ~ he wasn't concerned about the actions of others. Those actions did not reflect on him and his fellow Americans. If you can't understand that, then there's nothing anyone can say to you.

A parent will be far more outraged if it is their child who murders, than they will be if it is a neighbor's child. They will have the same sympathy for the victims though. That is the case here. It is because the American people care so much about their troops, that they are far more outraged by news that a few of them would act in such a manner and fear that the actions of a few will reflect on all those who are honorable and decent. I don't understand your attitude and that you too do not have that concern. Those actions of a few endanger all of the troops.

Our thugs are "better" than theirs (there's a mom in Iraq saying the same thing right now...)

my uncle was 17 yrs old and landed on omaha beach and had to plow american bodies into mass graves on the beach..
he ended up in a mental hospital when he returned stateside and after 3 months was given orders to go to the pacific..my grandparents got him stopped with the help of congress people..but he did not go and commit murder!

my dad was left for dead on Guam..he did not go murder innocent civilians...

my father in law landed in Cherbourg, France during the normandy invasion and was surrounded by germans..and saw many of his soldier buddies killed by the germans..and freeze to death..he did not go and commit murder of innocent civilians...
not for anger, not for frustrations, not for revenge!

our soldiers saw horrible attrocities at the german concentration camps..and our soldiers did not murder the germans responsible....they rounded them up and they were dealt with legally.,.they were not murdered by our soldiers..

there is no excuse for revenge murder of civilians ever!..not now..not during WWI not during WWII and not during Korea war, and not during Vietnam!

fly

Your family has much to be proud of this Memorial Day.

:patriot:

who will memorialize the demise of what they fought for?? and that is the republic and democracy of this once great nation ..that is now a very sick nation!

we just sat at breakfast and talked about ..who will memorialize the innocence and lives of those who died in Iraq ..theirs and ours for nothing but fucking lies by this administration..

this is a very sad day for our nation indeed...

for what once was, for what used to be honor..that is now disgraced by nothing but blow hard fucking chickenhawks...cowards in my families eyes! and the cowards who support this digraceful group of criminals in our white house!

enough is enough..

when will we as a people take our country back and restore our once proud heritage??

fly

some predicted the demise of our great nation at the hands of the Nazis.

It's a call to arms. Our turn to fight for our country.

It is their way of showing their support for the troops.

would spit on any republican who came near them..this is the first year my father , father in law and mother in law refuse to march in any veterans parades!

they are disgusted!

oh my mother in law was a sargent during WWII in the army.

and my husband was in the reserves during Nam...in fact this morning my husband went out and put our flag upside down...he said it was too hypocritical to fly it upright....for what this administration has done to the country he served! it is his way of protesting this administration!

fly

EVERY SINGLE WAR.

EVERY ONE.

But PARTICULARLY ones where there's no clear enemy, when you can't tell your friends from your foes. Like Vietnam or Iraq.

No excuse. Simply the way things are and have always been.

The U.S. Calvary massacred whole native villages. Natives massacred whole white settlements.

For every few soldiers who are decent and honorable men and women, there are those who are already bent, or become bent, or can be LED by those who are bent to commit atrocities. This is war. Same as it ever was.

There is absolutely no reason for us to be there anymore, not that there ever was one in the first place. And this sort of thing is as inevitable in Haditha as it was at My Lai. War of occupation with a civilian population that overwhelmingly doesn't want us there (it's the ONLY thing they agree on)... kids in uniform who just want to make it back to Ohio or Minnesota or Alabama in one piece. It's inevitable. And it's wrong, because this whole god-damn affair was built on a pack of lies, and every single cheap, shoddy rationale for this clusterfuck has fallen flat and hollow.

Nope. It's time to bring our troops home. Iraq can sort out their own problems without the added problem of an unwelcome foreign occupation.

In order for Republicans to admit there's a problem, they'd have to examine the root of the problem which would lead them back to their asshole leaders who have been lying through their teeth since the get go. They'd have to think about the fact that our troops have NOT been treated well by this group of warmongers - they've been abused and undersupported and asked to do things they should never have to do.
Republicans are not capable of such thinking however - their precious little minds won't allow it because they may have to face the truth. So they become outraged over the outrage.

The soldiers who committed atrocities in Haditha were wrong and should be punished. However, I can understand the circumstances that would cause them to break with reality, to lose all sense of humanity and become animals in light of the conditions they've been forced to endure.

They are all victims, IMHO, and I want Bushco prosecuted and sent to the Hague for being ultimately responsible.

have to accept responsibility for the blood on their own fucking hands for supporting these fucking murderers in their so called party or their alliegance to these fucking liars and murderers in this white house!

but god knows fucking republicans never take responsibility for their sick failures and their sick behaviour...they make me puke!

fly

War of occupation, civilian population that doesn't want us there. Kids in uniform who thought they were getting college paid for, and who only want to make it home in one piece.

And what is the rationale for us being there, again? I mean, what is it this week?

Time to end this disaster, and I for one want the leaders of our party to start standing up clearly for getting us the fuck out of there NOW.

"What did they (republicans) expect? When you put people in suicidal positions, then you can't be suprised when they start acting suicidal."

I want more than anything for this story not to be true. But if it is, we need to take a step back and look at why this happened. Most people didn't do that during the Abu Ghraib horror and if changes aren't made soon, what happened in Haditha will happen again.

I doubt the chicken hawk repukes really care, after all its not their kids who are dieing. They all go to rich fancy schools that are paid for by their dads who get kickbacks from their corporate "sponsors" This war is brought to you by halliburton, KBR, EXXON, Diebold etc.:sarcasm: :puke:

Things like this happen in every war. The problem is the military not coming clean and punishing those responsible IMMEDIATELY. Not six months later, with information dribbling in from cell phone cameras and mysterious news leaks. Meanwhile, no comment from the Pentagon. Sweep it under the rug.

And they wonder WTF people don't trust them. Why people might believe someone like Jesse Macbeth.