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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:04 PM
Original message
Should we legalize murder?
Edited on Thu Jun-01-06 01:10 PM by madmusic
That's what one poster suggested was the gist of this argument, as silly as that is. Of course, that was not the point and saying it was, or might be, was merely a simpleminded soundbite. A more rational question might be, have we legalized murder in Iraq? The real issue is the shift to the right of the liberals when it comes to crime. Namely, the acceptance of the conservative idea that rehabilitation is impossible. As we move closer to a fascist state, it becomes more obvious how this idea of "tough on crime" is a necessary and sufficient premise of the War on Terror and other BushCo acts of crime. Lest this argument be accused of condoning terrorists such as those in the planes on 9/11, that is not the point either, and is not the argument. (Though it would be an easy argument to say we wished they lived so we could put them to death.) The argument is that because the U.S. is so punitive, and because we justify treating our criminals so severely, we are free to invade "inferior" countries inhabited by people even worse than our own criminals, be that true or not. This allows us to ignore women and children killed in Iraq even as we have hours and hours of national news about a missing or murdered "Cute, White Girl." Because we are so punitive here, we have a right to be so punitive elsewhere. It is an American worldview that helps justify our police-like foreign policy. All of this is in fact based on a false premise:

The very nature of our modern culture, with its pressures and predilections for soundbites, and our “complicated, confusing, shades-of-gray world” triggers anxiety that provokes projection of the shadow archetype. As an example of the swiftness with which an archetype can be taken up, the rehabilitation rationale that prevailed from the nineteenth century to the early 1970s was abruptly abandoned when Robert Martinson published a sociological analysis of prison rehabilitation programs, concluding that rehabilitation would never succeed because it was conceptually flawed:


"Immediately, almost overnight the concept that had served as a cornerstone of corrections policy for more than a century was politically and publicly discredited. We moved abruptly in the mid-1970s from a society that justified putting people in prison based on the belief that their incarceration would somehow facilitate their productive re-entry back into the freeworld to one that used imprisonment merely to punish criminal offenders by “incapacitating” and “containing” them behind bars, as far away from the rest of us for as long as possible."


The “immediate and unexpectedly enthusiastic reception” of Martinson’s work and the “extreme and extremely uncritical ways in which were being both promoted and implemented” surprised Martinson himself. We are not surprised; Martinson hooked into the shadow archetype, and the collective embraced the familiar story. Five years later, Martinson published an article retracting most of his earlier piece. No one was interested. We are not surprised by that either. Once the archetype is hooked, played on by politicians and amplified by the media, we become eminently manipulable. When the discourse becomes too vehement or vituperative, perk up your ears, and hear the voice of one seeking to escape from himself.

Source: PARADING THE SAURIAN TAIL: PROJECTION, JUNG, AND THE LAW (PDF)


If American criminals cannot be rehabilitated, or reasoned with, or understood, the terrorists, potential terrorists, and maybe Arabs in general, cannot be either. The only solution then becomes “incapacitating” and “containing” them behind bars, as far away from the rest of us for as long as possible." Or killing them. We use the death penalty when we can, and war when we can't.


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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Um, we do differentiate murder from self defense
and we do it for a very good reason.

Most murderers can be rehabilitated, especially when they committed the crime when they were young, stupid, drugged and drunk. We still leave them behind bars for a very, very long time. Some belong there permanently, the psychopaths who present a clear public health danger.

The conservative image of prison as pure punishment serves no one, though, because it violates their own ideal of redemption. Put a guy into prison and allow prison culture to torture him for ten years, you end up with a very angry guy, much worse that what he was when he went in.

Add to this the fact that the prisons are now the mental health facility of last resort, and the whole enterprise should become unconscionably cruel even for the sourest Calvinist.

In short, we need to keep our prisons humane. We never know when we'll be arrested by mistake and put into one of them.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Kind of off-topic but...
I had a pyschology professor who also had a practice working as a drug counselor. She believed in the decriminalization of all drugs, including heroin. Her reason: She saw too many young kids that simply had a drug problem or didn't have a drug problem, but were just caught on a drug charge, get sent to jail, come out and they were real criminals, whereas before they just did drugs. She said it was said how many kids she saw go into the system and came out a larger problem to society. If they really had a problem, get them help but jail didn't do that.

Obviously murderers need to go to jail, but jail should be for murderers and rapists and such. Save a whole lot of money if we just stopped sending non-violent drug offenders there.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. They have a solution for that, Warpy...
Ignore what prison does to a person and never let them out. Easy! Very expensive, but easy. Except, for example, the L.A. County Jail immediately lets people out who have a 90 sentence or less. Most do about 10% of their sentence. Why? No money. Rehabilitation is cheaper and most citizens would rather invest in it, but politicians misunderstand this and are afraid to appear "soft on crime." They especially don't want to appear soft on whatever the current moral panic is. This is in spite of the findings of a recent poll conducted by Zogby International for the National Council on Crime and Delinquency. American voters insisted by almost a 9-to-1 margin that they favored rehabilitative services for nonviolent prisoners over a punishment-only system. Also, "Our resources are being misspent. Our punishments are too severe. Our sentences are too long," (Supreme Court Justice) Kennedy said in a speech at the American Bar Association convention in San Francisco.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Or as the Bushreich would explain it, "pre-emptive self-defense"
That's been the excuse for a while now, hasn't it?
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. I suppose the same argument can be made for many crimes, that....
...we should seek to understand and stop/correct the factors motivate people to become murderers/terr'ists/rapists/abusers/drug fiends/etc., instead of just seeing the "two" sides of this issue. Call me crazy, but I'd wager there is a reason why people who feel like they have no options left commit desperate and horrible acts.

And I'll go further and state that I think greed and jealousy are the main motivations behind these crimes. Some people, because they are greedy and programmed to believe it is "Right", will take more than is fair or needed and others will become jealous of those people.

Granted, there would still be some irrational crime, so perhaps this doesn't completely solve the problem, but I think it would go a long way.

And I am not advocating that we should establish a communist/socialist state, or that there should be enforced redistribution of wealth. What I am saying goes much further, that we need a drastic shift in our paradigm of what is important in life, and in the idea of community.



So to answer your question: no, we should legalize murder, but I do feel we should legalize and/or decriminalize so many of the 'vice' issues which only serve to feed crime through a black market.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. The more we focus on punishment...
...the less we focus on prevention, which is usually those damned bleeding heart programs that actually work. They don't work 100% of the time, of course, nothing will, but they can work and are a lot cheaper. The right would rather the country shift to the right so it can be more callus, and then we can invade countries without some bleeding heart liberal crying about it loud enough to be heard.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a common mistake, but a real one
Edited on Thu Jun-01-06 01:20 PM by Asgaya Dihi
We've done similar things for years, it's the fault I think of money being tied too strongly with policy. Kick someone and that doesn't help, we must just need to kick them harder. It never occurs to us that others might not respond any better to it than we would. If we used treatment and education to solve problems we know that dollar for dollar it's a much better bet by a wide margin, problem is there aren't so many jobs in that.There's lots of jobs though in everything from the local jails and law enforcement to drug testing companies and the growth of our for profit industry, lots of money to be made and people with an interest in keeping things the way they are today.

If it's good for business, it's good for the US, right? That's what we've heard for years. For anyone less than aware of what we've built this is what good business looks like to some, and this is why we can do it to others.

Torture Inc. Americas Brutal Prisons (BBC Documentary)
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm

Prisonsucks.com (Research on the crime control industry)
http://www.prisonsucks.com/

Comparative International Rates of Incarceration: An Examination of Causes and Trends
Presented to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights
http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/pub9036.pdf

Last is slightly out of date, more recent numbers were 724 per 100k, but there are two good charts in it which illustrate the problem nicely. This is what we look like not because it works better, but because that's where the lobbyist money is. And yes, I think it's also why we can now do it so easily to others. It's not big deal anymore, we've been doing it to our own for ages. Most just never bothered to look at the system.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, perhaps we shoul consider your own response
To see where someoen would get that crazy idea. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1327450&mesg_id=1327450


alphafemale - Are you equating a murderer to a detainee in the "War on Drugs?" nt

madmusic - In a way, yes.

Are you saying there is a solid line that divides the two? I think not. It is a world view, or a nationalist view, that includes the war on drugs. The war on drugs is only a small part of a bigger picture.


Life sure is easy when you can edit the past to make people who question you look like dopes. Of course the honest of such methods is questionable.

In my opinion, there are two groups of criminals - those who can reasonably be rehabilitated, and those who cannot. Most people would put murderers and terrorists in the second box - your solution seems to be to pretend there is only box.

That said, we should shift the focus back to rehabilitating criminals - particularly in regards to drug offences.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Tricky?
Edited on Thu Jun-01-06 01:46 PM by madmusic
You forgot to mention that it was locked because of a forbidden link (that I didn't know was banned). And because so many misunderstood the point, there was an attempt to clarify it here. Call it what you want. I call it clarification, but still stand by that post. Lock 'em up and throw away the key is the same policy if or if not a drug offender. So I still say there isn't a sharp line dividing them.

And who cares if most people put murders in the non-rehabilitation box? That is wrong, for they have the lowest recidivism rate.

Bet you didn't know that, which proves my point: "Once the archetype is hooked, played on by politicians and amplified by the media, we become eminently manipulable."

EDIT: typo.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. So most murderers only feel the need to kill one person?
Gosh that's comforting.

I guess you are right we should let them right out of prison.

Bryant
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's obvious why you didn't quote me...
Because I DIDN'T say that, but will now. For the rest of their life is often unnecessary and too long.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I was being facetious
What's funny is you acting all hurt about being asked about legalizing murder and then arguing that we should let murderers out of prison - if your argument is that we are too hard on murderers in America why not just say that?
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Because murder is only one part of the issue.
Acting all hurt? LOL, don't flatter yourself.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Hell, I'll say that. We are being too hard on murderers in America.
We are being too hard on almost every criminal offender in America.

First, most civilized countries don't have the death penalty. Second, most civilized countries don't have life without parole. Third, most civilized countries set upper limits on their sentences, such as 20 years or 30 years.

America's harshness is extreme and seems to serve no purpose, if comparative crime rates are any indication. And I haven't even gotten started on the hideous, brutal insanity of imprisoning hundreds of thousands of non-violent drug law violators for decades.

America's criminal justice system is way fucked up.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Good point
There's at least three classes, more I'd think. We've got the most minor ones, the people who have never hurt a soul but just wanted to get high. Then we've got minor to mid level criminals, things like vandals or thieves, or others who had a fit of temper but aren't generally dangerous. Last we've got the rare really dangerous types, they are why I'm not 100% sure we can totally get rid of the death penalty rather than mostly get rid of it. There is a type out there that enjoys hurting people and have gone through quite a bit of effort to get very good at it. With the rare type where the level of confinement required would amount to cruel and unusual punishment in itself I'm not sure how many options we really have.

With most either education or rehabilitation would work much better. With some they won't respond anymore but they might have when they started down the wrong road. We take someones life, their future, their hopes, isolate them with often violent criminals for a few years and we're surprised by what comes out. When we remove all hope from others we leave them not giving a damned about us either, even if they were a caring person a few years before. Something to consider, much of a crime and some of our worst criminals didn't have to be that way. They were a product of our system.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yes, there are psychopaths, really dangerous ones
And there are psychopaths who were never arrested or who never committed a felony.

There are some who cannot be rehabilitated, or some who it would be too risky to give that chance. But the media equates everyone though various moral panics, one after the other, and crime becomes a blur and life is dangerous everywhere, though the crime rate has plummeted since 1995. We not only have the most people in prisons, our sentences are longer and more severe than anywhere else in the world.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Murder is good for our nations security. Wave the flag and
knock off a few civilians. Do it for America.
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