I don't want to hear about any "snapped" shit with our troops

These are the same fecking guys who will be turned on us if Bush can figure out a way to do it. I don't put anything past the Bush regime. And if he does I don't want to hear about no "snapped" shit if they get nervous and open up on us. I have seen this happen before in my lifetime. I don't want to see it happen again.

Don't forget as the life of an Iraqi woman and child becomes insignificant it opens up the door for the same happening to us. Don't fall for it.

Don

too convenient.

Unless you want to believe they're complete monsters, it's the only logical explanation.

They've been dumped in a foreign war zone inadequately trained and inadequately supervised. They've been told they're fighting "evil". They see plenty of death, but no plans on how to stop it. They're young and they're scared.

Under these circumstances, I find it amazing that MORE soldiers don't "snap".

It doesn't excuse their actions, but it IS a valid explanation for them.

And by that I mean all those that voted for the GOP after 2002. The whole damn USA has snapped IMO...and you are right there is NO EXCUSE

...and I stand by my above analysis.

To claim otherwise ignores the real problem...the fact that we're sending inadequately trained troops to fight a war in which we're lying to them, not properly supervising them and not giving them any light at the end of the tunnel.

THAT'S the real problem, as I see it.

Your explanation is correct, and you're right, it's not an excuse.

I'd like to hear from someone who has been in that situation - a young, inexperienced kid on his third tour of duty who's scared out of his mind, desperate for lack of sleep, and probably plagued with PSTD and depression.

Let's blame those who are really at fault: Bush and his cronies.

that is, the anti-war movement is un-American and we don't support the troops, blah, blah, blah.

Bush is their Commander-in-Chief and he MUST BE OBEYED :sarcasm: Otherwise, we'd have more active duty speaking out against *his war* instead of disgruntled vets and retired generals.

Bless their hearts, our troops are living the ultimate Catch-22 :cry:

I think there are some genuine reasons for that, some having to do with corruption among the officer corps, but mostly having to do with the inappropriateness of using a combat force for garrison duty. But the contention that troops in Haditha "snapped" does nothing toward getting at the truth about the behavior of the U.S. in Iraq.

terrorists had "snapped" too with all the BS the US does in the middle east. Same excuses. Right, I don't think so.

Just more double standard bullshit. Iraqi women bear Iraqi children who grow up to hate us. More of the bullshit.

The leaders should just have the fights themselves. None of the ordinary people want this crap.

BLAEEEEEEEECCHHHHH VOMIT PUCKKKKKKK BLEEEECCCCCHHHHH!

the soldiers were under . . . fine.

But they ALL had the discussion without once mentioning any aspect of the impact that the killings and violence of our forces have had on these Iraqi victims and their fellow citizens.

Everyone, everyone that I saw, stretched to find mitigating factors to soften their criticism of the soldiers in Iraq. But none could find the room or the time to express an equal amount of sadness for the victims of their forces' violence.

I find that a sad reflection of how most Americans have never once considered that Iraq might deserve their deference due to the disaster we've caused in that country. U.S.A. #1 - Everyone else get behind.

marine commander who isn't going to be a general now, being the commander in charge at Haditha. not ONCE in the article did it talk about the horrors that the iraqis are suffering at the hands of our troops and the violence that has been unleashed due to *'s illegal, immoral and unjust war. nor does it place the blame squarely where it belongs--on the blood-soaked hands of that whole rotten, stinking, corrupt administration.

Scary thought.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/294

Whatever happened to "if you want the job done right, do it yourself"?
(I guess the "ownership class" can't be bothered, huh?)

You will find the answer to your question there.

It's a shame we can't get higher quality people in the military, isn't it?

Don

:shrug:

What we have here in America is a republic based upon some democratic ideals.

It still is not a true democracy though.

And to the Republic for Which it Stands...

Don

what they are doing.

These Marines may or may not have LIHOP. I have no idea HOW we're going to be able to tell the difference.

A REAL discussion of this will be good for America.

He feels that the war is a fucking mess that we can't fix (felt that way before he went over the 1st time too) and he says that there are a significant amount that agree with him...mostly the officers and those that were in the military mostly to pay for education, which is the same reason he's there. He graduated college with massive student loans and couldn't find a job that would pay him anything more than $10/hr.

We MUST resist it however we can.

IF THEY ARE IN STRESS AND BELIEVE THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG ILLEGAL AND CRIMINAL THEN THEY NEED TO STAND UP AND REVOLT AGAINST THOSE WHO SENT THEM TO ENGAGE IN THIS CRIMINAL ACTIVITY DISGUSED AS PRTOECTING AMERICA. IT IS NOT IT IS CRIMINAL IIT IS A LIE AND THOSE REPSONSIBEL SHOULD BE DRAGGED OUT BY THE SCRUFF OF THEIR NECKS AND LOCKED UP TRIED AND THROWN IN A HOLE THAT GETS SUNLIGHT FOR ONE HOUR A DAY.

:eyes:

Nothing like the voice of experience.

These humans made the choice to join an organization whose main objective in life is to kill other human beings! PERIOD. And now they want to give them sensativity training! It makes me wanty to puck! Until human beings realize that it is wrong to join a comapny who's objective and business plan is organized to kill human beings there is always going to be these sorts of things happening. I have no sypathy ffor any of the people in the army and I DO NOT SUPPORT THEM IN ANY WAY UNLESS THEY REVOLT AGAINST THE CRIMINALS WHO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO! WHEN THEY TELL BUSH AND HIS CRONIE COWARDS TO GO FUCK THEMSELVES THEN I WILL BE PROUD OF THE MILITARY UNTIL THEN FUCK THEM AND THE LIES THEY HELP PERPETUATE INCLUDING THIS LATEST COVER UP IN THE VILLAGE OF ISHAQI! WHO BELIEVES THAT THERE WAS NOT A CRIMINAL ACT COMMITTIED IN THAT VILLAGE? LIES TO COVE UP LIES THAT IS WHAT THE MILITARY CODE OF JUSTICE IS ALL ABOUT. I HATE THE MILITARY!

discussion of what is happening.

csmonitor.com/2006/0126/dailyUpdate.html?s=mesdu

able to shoot pregnant women without qualm because some of them had the nasty habit of walking up to you and dropping grenades at your feet. If you were really cold, a pregnant woman doubled the body count.

I saw a lot of these guys coming back, and far too many of them were basket cases. They did their jobs, followed their orders, but seemed like a large part of their souls were missing.

They were fighting an invisible enemy with no battle lines or foreseeable end to the war, too.

...villagers took sides with whoever wouldn't kill them. There was no front line.

Did I miss the link? Is it like Bin Ladin and Iraq?

And this one is turning out just like that one. What's the problem? Takes no imagination at all to make the connection.

The purpose of the US Military is for two things--to kill people and break things. Call it whatever you want as far as "snapped" goes,but when you get a nineteen year old who wants to kill some "sand niggers",browbeat him(her) in boot camp,fill him (or her) with a small pharmacy of prescription drugs and put a gun in his or her hands,and tromp them off to a war zone three or four times,this will happen. Bush,Cheney,Rummy,their sycophants and the entire freakin' military need to be held accountable for every illegal death in Iraq.

let's wait for the evidence. well, that's the way i feel. many have these men and women tried, found guilty and executed.
we haven't heard any of the evidence....were these civilians used as human shields by their fellow iraqis. do you honestly believe that our marines are monsters? is it possible for the civs to lie because it's less dangerous to blame the hapless american troops?

let's wait and see.

they would all have to have snapped at the exact moment..that is nothing but propaganda and bullshit!! this is policy failure..it is failure to lead and be lead.,.this is the sick administration policy ..and look the other way policy..this is murder by pack...like a fucking pack of sick pathetic dogs!

this is gang warfare...it is not professional soldiers..this is sick beyond words..

i would bet the iraqi's would love to have saddma back!

fly

just about every soldier I've ever known who was in combat says pretty much the same thing-- you're first action you shit your pants and hesitate to shoot. Then it gets automatic.

But "real" wars have a visible, uniformed, enemy, defined battle lines, and when the battle is over the civilians might come back, the area is pacified by the winner, and everyone "relaxes" while planning the next battle. Shit happens in a war, horrible shit, but it's war, and doesn't produce many murderers.

Iraq, Vietnam, the African, South Asian and South American "revolutions"... It's constant and total war. It's the killing fields where it's not about taking the hill or the village, and no hope of armistice, surrender or "victory," but just surviving for another day and hoping the other side gives up before they're all killed. Or you're all killed.

The Salvadoran death squads were made up of nice kids who joined the army because it was a good job. Pretty soon the initial disgust over machinegunning schools was replaced by feeling it was just another day. Pol Pot didn't screen his troops for psychopathic killers-- he made them. Made them the same way the African kids were made into stone cold killers.

It's easy to create a culture of death-- much easier than we would like to think. And if we are not creating one in Iraq, we're not doing a whole hell of a lot to stop it.

but it is a starting point for understanding, or it is the beginnings of an explanation. I can certainly see your outrage over these atrocities, but I think if we want to be impactful we need to first understand how this happened, so that we can try to take steps to ensure that no more massacres happen in our names.

This is not about judging right or wrong, or giving excuses and absolving people of their responsibility, but just a step towards understanding. And if they say they just "snapped" ok, lets look at what led to that "snapping." Then let's see who bares the responsibility and makes sure that justice is served. If we lose this opportunity to understand and learn, we may be throwing away more lives down the road.

fighting ever forward for too many of the wrong, pig headed reasons as it is