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Here's what Kerry did after the election, and why!

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:15 PM
Original message
Here's what Kerry did after the election, and why!
From the RFK Jr. article:

By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/1



Kerry continued legal efforts:

Today, Kerry-Edwards filed a document in support of that statement. Most significant, Kerry-Edwards also filed today a separate document in support of our motion for hearing with two critical attachments: 1) a declaration from Kerry-Edwards attorney Don McTigue regarding a survey he conducted of Kerry-Edwards county recount coordinators; 2) a summary chart of the results of that survey (which highlight the inconsistent standards applied during the recount).

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/756

http://www.truthout.org/pdf/cobbbadnariktransfertatement22305.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmctiguedecl22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardsmotionforhearing22405.pdf
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardssummarychart22405.pdf (counting)
http://www.truthout.org/pdf/kerryedwardstransferstatement22405.pdf


They were thrown out by the courts, by partisan players, but if there was solid evidence not even partisanship would have been able to refute the case. As Conyers report stated:

Whether the cumulative effect of these legal violations would have altered the actual outcome is not known at this time. However, we do know that there are many serious and intentional violations which violate Ohio’s own law, that the Secretary of State has done everything in his power to avoid accounting for such violations, and it is incumbent on Congress to protect the integrity of its own laws by recognizing the seriousness of these legal violations.

B. Need for Further Congressional Hearings

It is also clear the U.S. Congress needs to conduct additional and more vigorous hearings into the irregularities in the Ohio presidential election and around the country.


While we have conducted our own Democratic hearings and investigation, we have been handicapped by the fact that key participants in the election, such as Secretary of State Blackwell, have refused to cooperate in our hearings or respond to Mr. Conyers questions. While GAO officials are prepared to move forward with a wide ranging analysis of systemic problems in the 2004 elections, they are not planning to conduct the kind of specific investigation needed to get to the bottom of the range of problems evident in Ohio. As a result, it appears that the only means of obtaining his cooperation in any congressional investigation is under the threat of subpoena, which only the Majority may require.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/issues/issues/election.html



More in these interviews:

http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/122105SenatorKerry.mp3

http://www.stephaniemiller.com/bits/2006_0517_kerry.mp3


As Rolling Stone now states:

Enough. Only a complete investigation by federal authorities can determine the full extent of any bribery and vote rigging that has taken place. The public must be assured that the power to count the votes -- and to recount them, if necessary -- will not be ceded to for-profit corporations with a vested interest in superseding the will of the people. America's elections are the most fundamental element of our democracy -- not a market to be privatized by companies like Diebold.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10463874/editorial_a_call_for_investigation



Outraged about the stolen election...

Write a letter to the media:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2658991&mesg_id=2658991

Contact your Senators:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry continued legal efforts: months after the motions were filed by
the Green party. months. Kerry had thousands of dollars saved for the recounts. He never used it. He did not even put any money into the ohio filings. when he finally did add his name it was AFTER the inauguaration. way too late.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. That's nonsense. If the
Green Party proved the election was stolen, they need to share it with the rest of America.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. In those interviews with Miller and Schultz he discusses election fraud
issues. I hope those who always post that Kerry refuses to discuss election fraud, decide to hear for themselves why their claims are countered as FALSE.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Linking to them again, because EVERYBODY should listen to them
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. "Fraud" is not enough. STOLEN - as in OVERTURNED.
There's fraud in every election. GOP overturns since 2000. I want to hear the candidate I voted for say that.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. I want EVERY DEM to say it. Do you have a list of all the Dems who have?
.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. I think the list is in the text area of your post. Like this one. (nt)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
123. Oh - it took me awhile to get that.
Must be the Corona.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #44
203. barbara boxer, howard dean, john conyers, maxine waters, russ feingold, et
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #203
207. Really, you have quotes by them saying the election was stolen? n/t
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 12:27 AM by ProSense
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #207
208. of course.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #208
210. Post them n/t
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 01:04 AM by politicasista
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #210
212. go to cspan Jan 6th 2005. house and senate both.
also on cspan, the ohio hearings. It's all documented. on video. and on paper.
john Conyer's website will have his papers, with many more democratic signatures supporting the Conyers Report. which says exactly that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #212
216. The word stolen or theft is not in the report, posted here
Search it for yourself. For the most part, Conyers always says "election irregularities" and consistently says they are not trying to overturn the election. I don't know where you're getting your information, but I haven't seen you post anything that's been correct yet.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #216
219. His first sentence says it as does every other page.
Cumulatively, these
irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousand of votes and voters in Ohio, raise grave
doubts regarding whether it can be said the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were
chosen in a manner that conforms to Ohio law, let alone federal requirements and
constitutional standards.
He is saying that the election was illegal and can not be certified for Bush. What do you think election irregularities means?
What do you think "did not conform to federal law or to the constitution" means.

He did NOT say it would not change the election results. he said no matter what the results, when there is a suspicion of fraud you investigate. you do not certify Bush as president. He said on the first page that he receives 2000 emails every day from Ohioans complaining about the election.
that's exactly what is in your link.

That does not mean there are small problems. That means this election is not legal, not valid. or as he says it again on page one:

"Consistent with the United States constitution concerning the counting of electoral votes by Congress and federal law implementing these requirements, there are ample grounds for challenging the electors from the state of Ohio".
there it is. clear as day.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #219
222. You said STOLEN
You demanded that specific word be used as well as a demand for the election to be OVERTURNED. You further said you could provide quotes with the word STOLEN in the quote. You can't because they haven't said it. They have been very careful to say they are NOT trying to overturn the election, but that we need to address the election irregularities.

The reason the word irregularities is used is because they can't point a finger at anyone in particular and prove in a court of law that fraud was committed by any given individual, let alone a conspiracy to steal an election.

You're just flat wrong.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #222
225. and it says stolen. "illegal behavior" "intentional misconduct"
That is identical to the word stolen. no difference. ILLEGAL ELECTION which is not certifiable means what exactly? STOLEN. with your capitals.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #225
227. illegal behavior doesn't equal theft
There was illegal behavior by Republicans in my state, but guess what, Kerry still won here. There is a difference between individuals engaging in illegal conduct, and a conspiracy to produce enough votes to steal an election no matter what. Democrats have been convicted of illegal election conduct too, should every one of those be called a stolen election, even if the number of votes involved weren't enough to overturn it?? You're putting words in Conyers' mouth, he is trying to fix serious voting problems, not overturn an election.

As is John Kerry, who has also used the word irregularities as well as the intentional conduct to keep people from voting.

"Can I draw a conclusion that they played tough games and clearly had an intent to reduce the level of our vote? Yes, absolutely. Can I tell you to a certainty that it made the difference in the election? I can't. There's no way for me to do that. If I could have done that, then obviously I would have found some legal recourse.''

Kerry conceded, however, that the widespread irregularities make it impossible to know for certain that the outcome reflected the will of the voters. ''I think there are clearly states where it is questionable whether everybody's vote is being counted, whether everybody is being given the opportunity to register and to vote,'' he said. ''There are clearly barriers in too many places to the ability of people to exercise their full franchise. For that to be happening in the United States of America today is disgraceful.''

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #227
229. page 10 first sentence. your link.
"In addition, a challenge has been filed
to the Ohio results asserting, to a level of
sworn proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that
Senator Kerry, not President Bush, was the
actual victor of the Presidential race in Ohio."

You guys need to sit down and read about what happened in Ohio. Start with your own link. It is quite clear but you will have to read it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #229
230. Uhm, yeah, by voters
Which has what to do with quotes from Conyers, Boxer, etc.??

Maybe you should read the paragraph before that where it says Kerry had joined the legal challenges regarding recounts, etc.

And if you have a witness on how the machines were hacked or memos about shorting voting machines, by all means come forward with it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #229
237. Read the OP! Stop being disingenuous!
Conyers' report, in case you have something against reading the the OP, states:

Whether the cumulative effect of these legal violations would have altered the actual outcome is not known at this time. However, we do know that there are many serious and intentional violations which violate Ohio’s own law, that the Secretary of State has done everything in his power to avoid accounting for such violations, and it is incumbent on Congress to protect the integrity of its own laws by recognizing the seriousness of these legal violations.

B. Need for Further Congressional Hearings

It is also clear the U.S. Congress needs to conduct additional and more vigorous hearings into the irregularities in the Ohio presidential election and around the country.


While we have conducted our own Democratic hearings and investigation, we have been handicapped by the fact that key participants in the election, such as Secretary of State Blackwell, have refused to cooperate in our hearings or respond to Mr. Conyers questions. While GAO officials are prepared to move forward with a wide ranging analysis of systemic problems in the 2004 elections, they are not planning to conduct the kind of specific investigation needed to get to the bottom of the range of problems evident in Ohio. As a result, it appears that the only means of obtaining his cooperation in any congressional investigation is under the threat of subpoena, which only the Majority may require.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/issues/issues/election.html


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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #216
220. here's more, still on the summary
With regards to our factual finding, in brief, we find that there were massive and
unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies in Ohio. In many cases these irregularities
were caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior, much of it involving Secretary of
State J. Kenneth Blackwell, the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio.

intentional misconduct
illegal behaviour
That is fraud spelled out loud and clear. That is theft.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #216
221. and again, clearly, still in the very beginning
The voting computer company Triad has essentially admitted that it engaged in a
course of behavior during the recount in numerous counties to provide “cheat
sheets” to those counting the ballots. The cheat sheets informed election officials how
many votes they should find for each candidate, and how many over and under votes they
should calculate to match the machine count. In that way, they could avoid doing a full
county-wide hand recount mandated by state law.


He accused the secretary of state of fraud and the voting machine company of fraud by the beginning of the second page!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #203
234. Feingold never said the election was stolen or illegal - at the Press Club
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:07 AM by blm
he answered a question about the machines pretty cluelessly. Several people posted about it here.

Feingold never states that election fraud is a problem - his speeches blame the loss on Democrats who he claims are cowed by Bush. (Yes, too cowed to support Kerry when he called for Rumsfeld to be fired during the campaign, Russ.)
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
89. And in what alternate universe would that happen with the Republicans
in control of ALL FOUR brances of our Federal Government and much of the local government in OHIO and other swing states, like...ah, FLORIDA?

OZ? That's it!

Just throw some water on Bush and his monkeys and everyone lives happily ever after?

Well we don't live in OZ and this is the only REALITY we have to work with, like it or not.

WHAT possible good would it have done to have Senator Kerry come off looking like a tin foil hat to most of the country? Would that have changed the outcome? Not a CHANCE! Gore had a better case in 2000 and was ridiculed as Sore Loserman for a very, long time. Kerry is carrying the banner for a lot of us and I'd happy he's being rational and methodical instead of tilting at windmills.

Don't get me wrong, tilting at windmills looks great. But it accomplishes nothing...unless you're looking for a hit musical about idealism and failure. Rather we should concentrate on winning back the House and Senate and rooting out corruption in our state and local governments so that we can actually have some power to do fight back with.





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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Looking bad for contesting results does not look as bad as
NOT contesting results, and ending up looking like a loser. Which is what happened.

Why are some Democrats so terrified of mouthing off, of going public, of making noise? Why must we always have our hands neatly folded while right wingers accuse us of everything? Time to scream out!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. With what PROOF? At the end of the day there has to be PROOF to make the
case.

None of you who claim that you would do it differently have yet said HOW you would have access to proof to make the legal case.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #94
124. It's not about fear. It is about being smart enough to know how and
when to fight. Tilting at windmills isn't a fight; it's an exercise in futility.

NO, this is NOT the time to SCREAM. It is the time to intelligently bring the issue out of the fringe and into the mainstream. Inform the public with facts and logic, not with screaming rhetoric. AFTER we take back Congress, then we can scream all we want, but then will we want to scream with investigation finally being able to proceed? I don't think so. I should think we would prefer indictments to screaming, but that's just my opinion.

Sorry, but "power to the people" doesn't get much air play when they own the media, the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court, state governments, local governments and all the big corporations who pull our collective strings for everything from gas to prescription drugs, to the food on our tables and the clothing on our backs.

No folks, it's time to plan, not scream.

Time to be smart.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #94
205. You got it! The BIGGEST problem members of the Democratic Party have
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 12:23 AM by pat_k
. . .is the perception that they are weak.

Contrary to what many Democratic strategists believe, the perception of weakness has NOTHING to do with stance on national security.

It is rooted in:

1. The reticence that centrists seem to have when it comes to accusation and punishment. (Something the right clearly revels in.) Instead of going after wrong-doers, Democratic leaders seek to "investigate" or "make sure it doesn't happen again" (and the Republicans chuckle, "Gee, for a minute there, I though they were actually going to do something.")

2. The tendency to refrain from fighting the good fights for "practical" or "strategic" reasons. Members of the Democratic Party may believe they are "picking fights wisely," but to observers, it appears they spend all their time predicting defeat and "saving their energy" for fights they can win. Outsiders looking in do not see "wise selection," they see cowardice. When the rare "winnable fight" does materialize, it is often for some incremental step or practical end that inspires no one.

The principle that government power can only be derived from the consent of the governed is the SOLE moral principle on which this nation was founded.

If standing up for the principle of consent is not one of those "good fights" that must be fought, come what may, I don't know what is.

"Fiat justitia, ruat coelum"

"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall"
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #89
109. He would NOT have looked like a tin foil hat
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 06:57 PM by Raksha
if he'd contested the election right away! He would have looked like a fighter.

Re >>WHAT possible good would it have done to have Senator Kerry come off looking like a tin foil hat to most of the country? Would that have changed the outcome? Not a CHANCE! Gore had a better case in 2000 and was ridiculed as Sore Loserman for a very, long time.<<

Yeah, maybe they ridiculed Gore as "Sore Loserman" for months, but the people who ridiculed him were NOT the people who voted for him or who ever would vote for him. Right now, Gore has a lot more street cred with the base, precisely because he FOUGHT for his presidency. While I think they both have their strong points as candidates, it's Gore who looks like the more possible and viable candidate for 2008.

Kerry's concession and the Democratic Party's failure to speak up are hurting us RIGHT NOW, this minute, because the freepers are using them to discredit the Rolling Stone article. I'm active on another forum and I know what they're saying. It's all lame and most of them haven't even read the article, but they are still using the Dem acquiescence to throw mud at it.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #109
120. NO, what is hurting us is worrying about the Freepers when we are doing
a better job of tearing ourselves apart without them EVEN HAVING TO LIFT A FINGER.

The Freepers are going to say what Freepers always do. What surprises me is to see people here saying THE SAME DAMN THINGS, especially in an ELECTION YEAR.

No matter how you slice and dice that, it is counterproductive. In other words, this pissing and moaning is going to accomplish what? Tell me. I'd really like to hear the upbeat side of all this derision.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. kicking and nominating EOM
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. he was conveniently in Iraq when senate voted on confirming electoral
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 04:39 PM by robbedvoter
votes for the 2004 election, leaving barbara Boxer to be the lone voice for HIS voters.
Not proeminent enough. "Voter fraud" is too vague. Fraud happens in every election. Since 2000 however it reached critical mass to overturn the results of national elections.
Kerry is a senator. What bills did he propose?
A stolen election is MORE than a legal matter - it's a constitutional crisis. Anyone with vision would have noticed that and treated it accordingly. Instead, kerry let his little lawyers 9the ones nor recalled on the tarmac on election night0 do their lawyerly thing and allowed HIS voters to think they lost and it was "the values" thing that put W on top - with a mandate to boot. THAT's betrayal! the Dem party still treats 2004 as a loss and many hear think it too.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Bills co-sponsored - at least 4 that I know of.
I am sure he was involved in the writing of these as well.

Instead of whaling (wailing?) on Kerry, you might want to check out the dearth of cosponsors on these, and make a few phone calls.


S.195 : A bill to provide for full voting representation in Congress for the citizens of the District of Columbia, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Lieberman, Joseph I. (introduced 1/26/2005) Cosponsors (13) Committees: Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Latest Major Action: 3/9/2005 Referred to Senate subcommittee. Status: Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs referred to Subcommittee on Oversight of Government Management, the Federal Workforce, and the District of Columbia.

S.391 : A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to prohibit certain State election administration officials from actively participating in electoral campaigns. Sponsor: Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. (introduced 2/16/2005) Cosponsors (5) Committees: Senate Rules and Administration Latest Major Action: 2/16/2005 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration.

S.450 : (The Count Every Vote Act) A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified paper record, to improve provisional balloting, to impose additional requirements under such Act, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Clinton, Hillary Rodham (introduced 2/17/2005) Cosponsors (6) Committees: Senate Rules and Administration Latest Major Action: 2/17/2005 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration.

S.1975 : A bill to prohibit deceptive practices in Federal elections. Sponsor: Sen Obama, Barack (introduced 11/8/2005) Cosponsors (4) Committees: Senate Rules and Administration Latest Major Action: 11/8/2005 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration.


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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Not whining. Crying in my teacup. Kerry is the ace in the hole for GOP
when they want to quash talk about a stolen election. And the other one, who spread rumors "he wanted to fight" is even more pathetic. Not a peep eversince that wish.
Sorry, it doesn't help me. As i said over and over - Gore made the mistake of sending us home from protesting, but at least fought it and left behind the general knowledge of the truth.
kerry - after the Crispin Miller conversation got out, sent a flunky to retract it. "Who me? Stolen election? Never.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Well, you cannot prove the election was "stolen"
And NOTHING in Kennedy's article achieves that. I like Kennedy but he missed the mark on this one.

Here's a law professor who specializes in election law...and he's on our side on issues like voter id and felon disenranchisement...and he makes far more sense than almost anyone else I've heard on this issue:

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/blogs/tokaji/2006/06/back-to-ohio-rolling-stone-piece.html

Kennedy's treatment of his subject differs from most "stolen election" arguments we've heard since 2004, in that it's much more comprehensively researched -- including over 200 footnotes that would make a law professor proud. While there's not a whole lot of new information here, Kennedy does a nice job of explaining and cataloguing the numerous problems that did in fact occur in Ohio's 2004 election. For reasons explained below, I don't think he makes a persuasive case that the election was "stolen" (i.e., that Kerry really won). The article is nevertheless useful in exposing how shoddy election administration practices can result in lost votes, and how some recently enacted laws will make things worse rather than better.


Please follow the link to read his reasons for his conclusions. And please read it with an open mind.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. The burden of proof is not on us. It is on the state.
http://january6th.org/files/election2004_burden_of_proof.htm

The fascist notion that the burden of proof is on us is undermining our efforts. This is one of the many rationalizations we must challenge as we demand our right to have confidence that we are being afforded free and fair elections for our public officials.

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Out of what legal document did you get that from?
We are a nation of laws. Just because you don't LIKE the laws (and let's be clear, I don't either, in this case), doesn't mean you get to pretend they are different than what they are.

If you can give me an adequate legal source for your claim, then I will retract that prior statement. But I don't believe that you can.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. We are a nation of people and We the People ARE the law.
We the People, through our representatives, have defined our election laws to ensure that election results reflect will. If, in any state, there is a reasonable doubt that the election results reflect the will of the voters, and application of the law fails to provide a remedy that eliminates the doubt, then We the People must unequivocally reject the results in a way that trumps all legalisms and cynical misuse of our courts.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. And what way would that be? nt
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. Many, many ways. . .
You generate enough outrage, the law follows.

Standing up and simply telling the truth is the start.

http://january6th.org/files/stop_stolen_elections_now.html
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Please list some bullet points.
Oh and btw is it possible that someone realizes that for difficult conclusions, a person cannot be pushed, but must be led by cloaked hints so that they believe that they have come to the conclusion themselves? That sometimes yelling and screaming just makes people react by putting up a wall of resistance, instead of joining your cause?

I don't expect you to agree. Just thought I'd throw that out there for you to think about.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. You have the link
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. I don't see anything helpful there.
And, I know what needs to be done. It is you who need to defend your assertions.

Please post the laws that you would use for any lawsuits. Who are the aggrieved parties who could file these suits, and do you have any idea why the many various election integrity organizations have not filed these suits? (hint: there is not sufficient evidence.)
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Others have.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
198. If lost votes, according to professor, have never proven to be decisive
to the outcome,


Then WHY for God's sake should we care about peoples votes being lost or stolen???

The idea that "lost votes are important, even though the chances of your lost vote changing the outcome are vanishingly small" is cowardly and hypocritical. He can't have it both ways!

For one thing it implies that unless Gore, say, PROVABLY WON, there is no point in chasing after every abused voter -- whose cumulative abuse is the only thing that might prove Gore or Kerry won, an idea that is dismissed at the outset of these guy's studies.

Hence, the rhetoric of sampling: of saying "sure, there's no point in counting every last vote because after all, the outcome can't be changed. But let's take a sample just so we can study the irregularities and pontificate about them."
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. robbedvoter, if you have the SMOKING GUN, please come forward
thnx.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL ISSUE. Also, proof comes FROM INVESTIGATION
he should have demanded one INSTEAD of conceeding.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. It WAS a legal issue at the time. They needed proof in hand. The numbers
weren't giving them the legal cover that Gore had from HIS numbers.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
130. It was a constitutional/human rights issue - as in Ukraine, Romania
You don't go to crooked courts with such a thing. You demonstrate strength and power - we would have backed him.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #130
235. You do know that it was BushInc pushing that Ukraine "protest"
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:11 AM by blm
don't you? The protest was their shot at Putin that THEY were in control and could take his guy down. That's easy to do when you can control perception through the media.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #130
241. It was a LEGAL ISSUE for the courts - Gore couldn't have proceeded without
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 08:40 AM by blm
the compelling LEGAL reasons the math in Florida gave him.

What in his lengthy record leads you to believe that Gore WOULD HAVE continued if the math was not there backing him up legally?
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
107. If it's "not a legal issue" than nothing done was illegal. nt
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #107
131. We needed a leader, not a lawyer.
Not illegal (from Kerry) but dumb, visionless, cowardly, small minded.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #131
161. Hmmm...dumb, visionless, cowardly, small minded.
:rofl:

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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #131
183. Oh, that's cute. Did you steal that from Bev, or Kos?
Good Lord. Are you one of the people still irrationally claiming that Al Gore could have "continued the fight"?
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #183
187. Ugh, I wouldn't use the word cute. Just sayin'.... n/t
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
163. I'd say it is more like being part of the problem because pissing and
moaning sure as HELL ain't part of the solution.

You need to either get over it or get off your ass and do something about it. How about working for Democratic unity so we can take back Congress and get some real investigation underway?

That is exactly what the GOP doesn't want us to do and attitudes like yours only give them what they want. Divide and conquer. Why on earth do you make it easy for them?

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Why would you think it's an either/or thing
Long before the Ohio electoral votes were sent to Congress, much of the fraud and systematic discrimination was well-known. To stand up for our most fundamental principle -- the principle of consent -- Kerry had a duty to "unconcede" and denounce the results of that un-free and unfair election.

He failed us.

I will denounce Kerry's failure until he comes clean and admits his mistake. Same goes for Gore.

My actions in this regard don't preclude other actions.

I commend Kerry's support of Censure, even as I lobby him to come clean on his failure to stand up against an election that was incapable of measuring the will of the people.

And I will fight for Impeachment of the men who never obtained our consent and who are now nuking the constitution with their fascist fantasy of a unitary authoritarian executive.

And I will fight for my right to believable elections.

These are not mutually exclusive activities.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. Thank-you Pat. you said it well.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
63. Why? Because EVERY minute you spend complaining about Kerry not doing
EXACTLY what YOU (in your inifinite political wisdom) think he should have done, is a minute that you are NOT organizing to get these bills passed.

How you spend your time IS an either/or thing.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:43 PM
Original message
I turn complaint into action.
I connect with others to directly lobby our leaders.

I challenge the rationalizations that feed the belief that we have no place -- that it is all decided "out there" somewhere; by some court or by some official.

I seek to motivate others to stand up against tyranny and say "IT IS NOT OVER! It will NEVER be over until we come to terms with the truth about the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004."

Part of coming to terms is identifying the errors and the crimes -- and holding those who made mistakes or committed crimes accountable.

Part of coming to terms is lobbying key players to recognize and denounce their own errors. That includes Kerry. That includes Gore. That includes every member of the 107th and 109th Congress who sat on their hands on January 6th.

And as for the criminals. Holding those who committed crimes accountable includes impeaching the felonious five on the Supreme Court who handed down the criminal Bush v. Gore edict (yes, even posthumously).




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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
85. Is that why you're complaining about Kerry. How many
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 06:07 PM by ProSense
members of Congress have you swayed to support an investigation?
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. My lobbying efforts the past months have been on Censure and Impeachment
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. We lose out of the box if we don't learn to call this ELECTION FRAUD!
Voter Fraud is the other side's pet issue that they blame on our side, cheating illegitimate voters, hence all the restrictions and special ID requirements they are always trying to enact, ala Georgia. Please, please, learn to refer to this as ELECTION FRAUD! Thank you. The preceding has been a Public Service Announcement brought to you be Americans for a Functioning Democracy.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. How's about STOLEN ELECTION? as in fraud that overturned the
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 04:52 PM by robbedvoter
result? ya know, the GOP-ers still moan about Nixon's "thin loss" to JFK. Truth is, the fraud in Illinois DID NOT AFFECT THE OUTCOME of the election. Had that state gone in the GOP column, it was still a JFK win. And that makes the difference between "fraud" and a steal'

Your point on "voter fraud" is well taken, BTW.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
68. EXCELLENT point - "Voter fraud" is a RETHUG term.
Hmmm.

Well, anyway, you are absolutely right. It is ELECTION FRAUD - and Kerry has used that term himself, as others have.

It's only rethugs that call it "voter fraud". Because they want to say that the only fraud is from voters voting illegitimately. When in fact there is very little evidence of that actually happening on any significant basis in modern elections.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just like Gore before him, Kerry failed us.
Pure and simple.

You can rattle off all the half-measures until you are blue in the face.

Ultimately, they failed us.

Their failure is tragic, but they aren't the stakeholders. It is the will of the PEOPLE that an election measures, NOT the will of the candidate.

Neither Kerry nor Gore are the stakeholders who get to say Yeah or Nay to unverifiable and unbelievable results. Neither Kerry nor Gore have the right to declare a discriminatory election to be legitimate. (I don't care what the so-called "margin of victory", an election that systematically denies voters their right to vote must ALWAYS be rejected. Accepting the results of an unfree and unfair election is an intolerable violation of everything we stand for as Americans.)

When someone says "But, Kerry (Gore) doesn't dispute the legitimacy of the election" our answer should be "So What??" -- or for the more verbose:

Kerry's statements are unfortunate and misguided, but they are also irrelevant. The voters have been denied their right to have confidence that the man who occupies the White House was elected by the people in a free and fair election. If Kerry chooses to be complicit in denying the voters their rights, that is his personal failure. His failure cannot be used to rationalize away voters' rights or to rationalize away the undeniable evidence that Election 2004 was stolen.

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. So...please tell me: what is the legal remedy?
What action could a court have ordered that would have had any effect on the outcome?

Please keep in mind before you answer:

a) it is impossible to count votes that were never cast; and

b) as the judge, you can only order action based on laws that were on the books on Nov. 2, 2004. Please cite the exact law you are following for the action you prescribe.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. Stand up, open a mouth, and tell the truth.
From http://january6th.org/files/stop_stolen_elections_now.html

Poisonous Notion 2

We are trapped and limited by the "letter of the law" (e.g., "they have all the judges"). If legal action to remedy a suspect election fails, that's it. Game over.

Simple Truth; Moral Position

We the People, through our representatives, have defined our election laws to ensure that election results reflect will. If, in any state, there is a reasonable doubt that the election results reflect the will of the voters, and application of the law fails to provide a remedy that eliminates the doubt, then We the People must unequivocally reject the results in a way that trumps all legalisms and cynical misuse of our courts.

We must go after individual election officials who fail to ensure a free, fair, open, and accurate election. Sue them. Seek criminal prosecution. Call them names. Go after their jobs.

Unequivocal rejection means employing every means at our disposal.

Fascist thieves only respond to force and threats of force -- e.g., accusation and threats of punishment. They could care less if we end up overturning their fraudulent results. As long as believe they face no personal risk, they will steal every vote they can. And right now they haveno fear for themselves because

Democrats rarely (if ever) go after wrong-doers personally. We "investigate," and pledge to "make sure it doesn't happen again." (and the Republicans chuckle, "Gee, for a minute there, I though they were actually going to do something.") We limit ourselves to legal action under election contest statutes that view the candidates as the primary stakeholders, when the only real stakeholders in an election are the members of the electorate.

No more. It is up to us to make sure that election officials in every jurisdiction know that their neighbors are watching and that we will hold them personally responsible if they betray our trust in 2006.

The law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it. We can never again allow "technical" or "legal" arguments trump reality as we did in 2000 and 2004.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. So, what is the legal remedy?
Did you expect that somehow Kerry would be able to take the office of President in January 2005? How would that come about? By what court order?

It seems to me your post is pie-in-the-sky that has nothing to do with reality.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
93. Tell the truth and allow the chips to fall where they may.
Call on colleagues to object to the electoral votes from Ohio.

Had he taken a stand, there are infinite ways it could have played out that would have resulted in Kerry being inaugurated on January 20th.

There are infinite ways that may have resulted in Bush being inaugurated, but so weakened by the widespread belief that he stole the election, that he would be a laughing stock and lame duck from day one.

The ripple effects of every action are impossible to know in advance. That is why, when faced with the big choices, each and every one of us just needs to do our best to figure out and do what is morally right, and allow the future to take care of itself.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Excuse me? Gore failed? Gore stood alone for 36 days while
the GOP hacks and corporate media eviscerated him!

He STOOD ALONE to demand the recount, he went to court to fight GOP efforts to stop the recount.

GORE FOUGHT FOR 36 DAYS!!

He Fought for the Election that WE Won.

He Fought for the VOTES of disenfranchised African Americans.

He Fought.

And, yes, by the time the Congressional Black Caucus stood to contest the vote, Gore caved. After fighting for over a month. After having everyone who had supported him in the past betray him, he folded. He did not fail. He Fought.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. He conceded to a criminal edict -- a failure of monumental proportions.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Gore: "No...step between...Court decision and violent revolution."
From an interview of Al Gore in May 29, 2006 New York Magazine:

Does he, like many Democrats, think the election was stolen?

Gore pauses a long time and stares into the middle distance. “There may come a time when I speak on that,” Gore says, “but it’s not now; I need more time to frame it carefully if I do.” Gore sighs. “In our system, there’s no intermediate step between a definitive Supreme Court decision and violent revolution.”

Later, I put the question of Gore’s views on the matter to David Boies, his lawyer in the Florida-recount battle. “He thought the court’s ruling was wrong and obviously political,” Boies says. So he considers the election stolen? “I think he does—and he’s right.”

http://newyorkmetro.com/news/politics/17065/index2.html


If you are saying that Gore failed and he should've done more, what should he have done when the Democratic Party and 90%(?) of Americans were completely clueless about election fraud in 2000... if there is no intermediate step between a definitive Supreme Court decision and violent revolution?
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
86. "no intermediate step" is beltway BS
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 06:12 PM by pat_k
The "tanks in the streets" threat was just one of the myriad bits of propaganda floating around during the Florida recount. Sounds like he bought it.

All he had to do was

=> Stand up and say NO to the criminal Bush v. Gore edict.

=> Tell the American people the truth; that the Supreme Court was usurping the right of the people of the State of Florida to determine the outcome of their election, and usurping the Constitutional role of Congress to settle challenges to electoral votes.

=> Describe the REAL Constitutional process -- that now, Florida had choices to make (1) Continue the recount and send electoral votes to Congress based on the results of that recount -- even if that meant conveying them after the so-called "Deadline"; (2) Send two slates of electoral votes, (3) Send electoral votes based on the incomplete election. In any case, as designated in the Constitution, Congress would be the final arbiter -- they could accept "late" electoral votes based on a completed election; they could reject the electoral votes based on the incomplete election; whatever.

The REAL Constitutional process is a LONG LONG way from revolution. The Criminal Bush v. Gore edict and illegitimate administration it put into power put our Constitution -- our common contract among ourselves -- into breach.

And even if it had meant revolution, a revolution - an act of the many -- would have been preferable to the overthrow of our government by the few.

It doesn't matter what 90% of the people thought, think, or don't think. When you know that our most fundamental principle -- the principle of consent; the SOLE moral principle on which our Constitution is founded -- has been violated, you speak out. You don't wait to "frame it." You don't wait until it is safe to speak.

How are those 90% supposed to learn anything when those who see the crimes against democracy stay silent (and in their silence, become complicit with those crimes)?


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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Damn good reply. Thank you.
We can't let any of them 'off the hook.' Gore should've taken it further. Never give up, explain the situation to the people and explain the constitutional options.

I do still hold in mind that if someone speaks out and the corporate media does not cover it, it did not happen. How likely is it that if Gore did what you say he should - it would've mattered?

He should've done it because it was the right thing to do and what is the likelihood it would've mattered - short-term and long-term?

:(
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #86
211. pat_k has it right. the rest of you need to listen and get it.
i've been saying this since my first post on du (and taking a hell of a lot of flak for it). gore was wrong to concede. gore failed us.

kerry was wrong to concede.

all of you saying "gore is president" don't get it. he's not president until he CLAIMS the presidency. same with kerry. the minute either one of them CLAIMS the presidency i'm right behind them.

at the very least, gore's refusal to concede would probably have put some restraint on the bush misadminitration. it would have mobilized so many people against bush that he would not have been able to move the way he did. also, the msm would not have been able to avoid it.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
260. all he needed was ONE SENATOR to back the congressional black caucus
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. What would you have had Gore and Kerry do?
I mean, when the Supreme Court said "it's over" - what would you have had Gore do?


When Kerry lacked the evidence needed to contest the election, what would you have had him do?

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Don't mix Gore with kerry. One courageous, one not.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. They had TWO VERY DIFFERENT sets of MATHEMATICAL circumstances.
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 05:07 PM by blm
Try judging their courage when BOTH ARE FACING THE EXACT SAME INFORMATION AND SITUATION.

Can you do that?

They were both in the senate a long time and at the SAME TIME. Compare how both dealt with the EXACT SAME CIRCUMSTANCES - then post about your findings and courage.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Um. Kerry returned to senate & tried like HELL to keep campaign promises
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 05:10 PM by emulatorloo
small businesses, healthcare for children, election reform, etc etc etc. Al Gore left public service and taught some college classes.

They are both courageous men and damn good democrats.

Gore won the Pop vote w just a thin margin in Florida separating him and Bush

Kerry (alledgedly) lost the popular vote (I think it was padded in CA and TX) and everybody told him that "the votes just aren't there" in Ohio.

I understand your bitterness, we are all bitter. But BUSHCO STOLE THE ELECTION, that is who I am bitter at.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
50. Just say no. Don't accept the result. Don't concede to fascists.
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 05:16 PM by pat_k
Tell the truth.

Tell the people that NO election that systematically discriminates against any class of voters can be accepted as legitimate.

Stand up an remind the American people that We the People, through our representatives, have defined our election laws to ensure that election results reflect OUR will.

Take a stand and declare that, if, in any state, there is a reasonable doubt that the election results reflect the will of the voters, and application of the law fails to provide a remedy that eliminates the doubt, We the People must unequivocally reject the results in a way that trumps all legalisms and cynical misuse of our courts.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
128. It's not about logic. It's all about making as much noise as we can and
being as counterproductive as possible. "All sound and fury, signifying nothing." :sarcasm:







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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
269. C'mon! You've seen Star Wars!
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 10:51 PM by zulchzulu
A vast sea of stars is broken as the warm, amber surface of the planet, the state of Ohio emerges from a total eclipse. Five small moons slowly drift into view from the far side of the planet. The MAIN TITLE "Kerry Takes Over DC" is followed by a ROLL-UP:

Democracy appears to be dead. Ruthless
DIEBOLD barons, driven by greed and the
lust for power, have replaced enlightenment
with oppression, and "rule by the people"
with The Chimpministration Galore.

PAN DOWN to reveal a small space cruiser heading TOWARD CAMERA
at great speed. PAN with the cruiser as it heads toward the
beautiful state of Ohio, which is surrounded by
hundreds of Move-On and MeetUp battleships.

INT. KERRY CRUISER - COCKPIT

In the cockpit of the cruise, the CAPTAIN and PILOT maneuver
closer to one of the battleships.

EDWARDS (O.S.)
Kerry.

Kerry turns to an unseen figure sitting behind him.

KERRY
Yes, sir?

EDWARDS (O.S.)
We have engaged the Bush/Cheney party. Positioned to detonate. Permission to detonate...

CAPTAIN
Nope. I'll do it.

The Bush/Cheney HQ is vaporized. Monitors show the explosion.

TO BE CONTINUED
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Not at all like Gore before him. Gore faught. He put his name out there.
he wasn't afraid of being called "sore loser" by the brown shirts. Kerry was.
Gore should have also allowed the popular movement to surge - that was his mistake. But courage, he had. And the truth is known because of his courage. Kerry thought of his personal comfort first. Big diff between them.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. You can continue to pit Gore against Kerry, but one thing
for sure Kerry was able to make up tens of thousand of votes in OH, Gore couldn't make up less than 600 in Florida. Bush was declared the winner in both cases.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
54. Gore won FLA. Kerry won OH. Gore fought for OUR win. Kerry didn't. nt
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. 118,601 vs. 537
Do you REALLY think Gore would have fought if the difference was over a hundred thousand, instead of less than a thousand?

And he should have asked for a statewide recount. But I'm not going around the boards beating up on him over that.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. Gore SHOULD HAVE asked for a statewide recount - I'll beat up on him!
We've got to DEMAND that every Democratic Party candidate DO THE MAXIMUM to fight back after an election was stolen.

Would Gore have fought back if the 'apparent' difference was 100,000+ -- don't know. He should've. :(

Election theft isn't what is used to be -- now, with electronic voting systems without voter verified paper ballots it is just as easy to change 300,000 to 200,000 in the Microsoft Access file as it is to change 300,000 to 29,500.

The 'gap' between 'winner' and 'loser' no longer tells us whether or not fraud might have occurred.

We *MUST* expect and investigate the possibility of fraud in ANY and EVERY race in which a Dem candidate or Dem issue seems to have 'lost'.

It is a house of mirrors now. The way out is not clear. Half measures will avail us nothing.

:hi:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. DO THE MATH - Gore is behind by 130,000 in Florida and lost popular vote
by 3 million votes according to the media perception. Are you telling me that Gore would not have conceded?

Kerry is behind by 1500 votes in Ohio and won the popular vote according to the media. Are you telling me that Kerry wouldn't have continued?

Does anyone even BOTHER factoring in the REAL DIFFERENCES in the circumstances?
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
190. The so-called "margin of victory" is irrelevant when an election is . . .
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 11:50 PM by pat_k
. . .incomplete or blatantly discriminatory.

Both Kerry and Gore failed to stand up and say "NO!" to criminal violations of our Constitutional democracy.

In 2000, the Bush v. Gore edict rendered the Florida Presidential election incomplete and incapable of serving as a measure of the will of the people of Florida. Gore failed us when he conceded to that decision.

In 2004, 10-hour poll-tax lines rendered the Ohio Presidential election unfree and unfair, and incapable of serving as a measure of the will of the people of Ohio. Kerry failed us when he conceded to the results of that illegitimate and discriminatory election.

Their failures do not condemn them for all time. Either man can redeem himself tomorrow by admitting his mistake and taking responsibility for the consequences of that mistake.

When an election is incomplete due to unresolved controversies or has been corrupted by discrimination, there is NO "margin of victory." Adding or subtracting from a suspect number is meaningless. When you recount, you RECOUNT. When you hold a new election because problems in the first one cannot be remedied in any other way, you HOLD A NEW ELECTION. You DO NOT take a questionable number and add to it or subtract from it.

The game of adding to, or subtracting from, unreliable baseline numbers is just that -- a game. In absence legitimate remedies to corrupt elections, that game is sometimes all we have. Unfortunately, people have gotten so involved in the game that they have lost sight of reality and fundamental principles -- like the fact that when processes come into question, the result of those processes cannot serve as a legitimate reference point.

When the facts tell us that election officials -- whether intentionally or not -- systematically disenfranchised selected groups of voters, and application of the law fails to remedy the discrimination, the only moral option is to unequivocally reject the results.

By December 8th, it was well known that the 10-hour poll-tax lines that stopped tens of thousands from casting their vote were directly correlated with the racial, socio-economic, and partisan status of the voters. Once this was a known, the ONLY question that mattered is this one:

Are hours-long poll-tax-lines for poor, minority voters AND none for affluent, white voters a tolerable condition for you? Will you stand up and object to the results of an election where this is the documented reality, or become complicit with the perpetrators of this condition?


To date, Kerry has chosen complicity.

For the sake of himself and the nation, I hope he sees the light -- and sees it soon.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #190
233. At least YOU chose to give an answer - others won't.
And now that he's learned alot about the machines, Kerry is now advocating for the banning of electronic voting machines state by state.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #54
184. Gore had the numbers on his side. Kerry frankly didn't have a leg to stand
on to contest in 2004. The overall consensus of his team of legal advisers was that the numbers were not there to succeed if he contested the election.

If he had the same situation (and numbers) as Gore had in 2000, Kerry absolutely would have contested.

You sound like you believe the fight is over, but this is a fight that is never over. NEVER. You have to push back and you have to keep fighting every single day. Why do you think Ohio happened? It happened because they had a network in place that they had been methodically building for years. That network runs through our entire country. They didn't start the takeover from the top. That's something people have to realize. It wasn't a top down job. They began their takeover in communities all across the country.

Leadership is about courage and wisdom. I credit the Senator for having the COURAGE and the WISDOM to concede when he did. Contesting would have done nothing more than make a few people like yourself feel better but it would have hurt our collective efforts as Democrats in the long term.

Do you think it was easy for him to return to the Senate after what happened and with Republicans booing and hissing when he attended the inauguration? And John Kerry didn't slink back and maintain a low profile. He returned with his held held high and both barrels blazing. He's pushed back and he's called them out and he's never backed down one inch. You think he ran? Well look again. He's still here and he isn't going to go away.

If John Kerry had contested the election, we would still have Bush but we would be fighting from a WEAKER position now. We would have lost the high ground and a lot of credibility in the eyes of America. The party is stronger today because Kerry didn't prolong the inevitable in 2004.

Right now, today, John Kerry is out there helping to get Dems into office across this country. We have a chance to take back the House and or the Senate if we don't blow it.

If we can make that happen, the purge can commence. The investigations can commence. And with a lot of hard work, the indictments can commence.





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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
61. Gore ultimately conceded to a fascist edict. Kerry failed to "unconcede".
. .when the fraud and systematic discrimination became well-known.

They both failed us.

They both can come clean at any time, admit their failure, and take a stand against unfree and unfair elections that are incapable of measuring OUR will.

Instead, they both continue to pour salt in the wound by maintaining the fascist notion that unfree and unfair elections are just fine and dandy as long as the so-called "margin of victory" is big enough.

But there is always hope that, if enough of us keep challenging their rationalizations, they will come to see the light, admit their errors, and truly stand up for our right to have confidence that our elected officials have obtained our consent in free and fair elections
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
111. There is no such thing! n/t
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #111
126. No such thing as what?? You think a concession is somehow legally
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 08:28 PM by pat_k
binding? It's not. A candidate can say, "Hey, wait a minute here. This election is a fraud" if the facts become clear at some point after their original concession (and in election 2004, the horrible facts about Ohio were crystal clear December 8th). I've coined the term "unconcede" to cover the situation.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #126
185. Let's just say, for sake of argument, that your premise is correct and
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 11:33 PM by _dynamicdems
either Gore or Kerry or both can come out and say they contest now. Okay. Do you think it would be wiser to do it now or after the elections in November?

I'd really like to hear what you have to say on this.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #185
199. If a public figure sees the truth -- that the elections of 2000 and 2004
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 12:11 AM by pat_k
were stolen, the time to go public is NOW.

How could it be any different? There is NO moral alternative.

If that public figure had a role in the theft, though action or inaction, the time to take responsibility is NOW.

When Barbara Boxer stood up on January 6th 2005, she didn't just stand up and object to the Ohio electors, she also told the nation that she had made a mistake when she failed to join the objection to the Florida electors on January 6th, 2001.

She came clean.

Each and every one of them can do the same.

We cannot move forward with any moral authority as a nation until we confront the truth. One does not need to wait for "the right time" to stand up and speak the truth.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #199
232. I'd rather be successful than spit into the wind. Timing is everything.
Any prosecutor will tell you that. You first need to build your case and make sure that you have all the facts. If you don't take time to prepare your case properly, the judge will probably throw it out of court. End of story. Partisan judges make this even more imperative, especially when you might have to simultaneously build a case against the judge.

Logic rather than emotional platitudes is what brings justice to wrongdoers.

Emotional appeals and ferver don't acheive any more than a blurb on the news at best. The truth will set you free, but first you must set the truth free. Truth needs to be released when and where all can see it, not in the dead of night or in some back alley.

Truth needs backup. Not everybody in this country has a built-in truth-o-meter. If they did, we obviously wouldn't be having this discussion (because nobody would have voted for Bush either time). A simple utterance of The Truth isn't going to make your average American fall to his knees with the light of salvation pouring forth from his eyes. "By God! I just heard TRUTH! I am SAVED!" Sorry, won't happen that way.

Truth needs to be served in order to be served. Give me a heaping platter of Truth served up Patrick Fitzgerald style with indictments on the side any day.



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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #232
239. Nuking the Constitution with their fascist fantasy of a unitary . . .
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 08:08 AM by pat_k
. . .authoritarian executive poses a clear and present danger -- and Congress has a sworn duty to act.

Election to the U.S. Congress carries with it unique responsibilities. Positions taken by candidates should affirm the duties of the office.

Members of Congress take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

The power to Impeach is vested in Congress and Congress alone.

The Congressional oath and the power to Impeach makes each and every member of Congress uniquely, and individually, responsible to take CONGRESSIONAL action when the principles and institutions we established in the Constitution are threatened or violated by officials in the Executive or Judiciary.

By his own admission, George W. Bush ordered the illegal surveillance of Americans without a warrant (violation of 50 USC Sec. 1809--Unauthorized Surveillance).

George W. Bush is continuing the illegal program, claiming that, "unitary authoritarian power" puts him above the law.

Bush's claim to unrestrained power subverts the principles and institutions we established under the Constitution for the United States. While the violation of rights of the Americans that are secretly being spied upon without a warrant is intolerable, it is the claim to unitary power that is truly devastating to our system of government.

Given the gravity and urgency of the threat to our constitutional democracy, members of Congress have a sworn duty to take immediate action to defend the nation.

The grave danger and the necessity for action is easily conveyed to the American people (as Feingold, Harkin, Boxer, and Kerry have demonstrated in interviews). When confronted with the truth, Americans understand that such absolute power is NEVER freely given to a leader; it is only taken by deception or force.

http://january6th.html/impeachment-clobber-rationalizations.html

]On the Eve of Battle: Unfounded Fears and Realistic Rewards

When principle demands action, outcome expectations, positive or negative, do not enter into the decision to act, but a realistic assessment of the risks and benefits can make it easier to take the necessary action.

Discussions of impeachment typically focus on dire predictions of "backlash" or other negative consequences that have little basis in reality. Rarely, if ever, do we hear that taking up the fight to initiate impeachment proceedings will benefit any leader who does so. This omission is mystifying, particularly because there is solid evidence that fighting for impeachment is a political winner.

Being an accomplice to crime is NEVER good politics

Our leaders just need to look at their failure to take a stand against the Iraq war for proof. The public believes that most of them voted for the war because they feared they would be called names ("unpatriotic" or whatever). They are now paying a serious price for giving in to threats of "backlash" then.

There are reports that our leaders are allowing the same fear to deter them from taking up the fight for impeachment. ("We can't demand an impeachment inquiry. If we do they'll call us unpatriotic for attacking a president in a time of war").

If our leaders do not overcome this fear and act, they will be digging themselves into a hole they may never get out of.

When we find out the magnitude of the crimes committed by the Bush administration (and we will, sooner or later) do they really want to pay the political price for being accomplices in those crimes?

Standing on principle always benefits the leader who does so.

As President Clinton says, people will always choose "strong and wrong" over "weak and right." It's certainly no secret that of what legitimate support Bush gets, much of it is simply based on a, carefully crafted, "strong leader" perception.

Should the Democratic Party finally recognize that they have a duty to take up the fight for impeachment, even if it turns out to be a "charge of the light brigade," it would not be surprising to see them garner an additional 5-7% of the white male vote, simply for showing the fortitude that demographic respects.

The most serious problem members of the Democratic Party face is the perception that they are weak

Contrary to what many Democratic strategists believe, the perception of weakness has NOTHING to do with stance on national security. It is rooted in:

  1. The reticence that centrists seem to have when it comes to accusation and punishment. (Something the right clearly revels in.) Instead of going after wrong-doers, Democratic leaders seek to "investigate" or "make sure it doesn't happen again" (and the Republicans chuckle, "Gee, for a minute there, I though they were actually going to do something.")


  2. The tendency to refrain from fighting the good fights for "practical" or "strategic" reasons. Members of the Democratic Party may believe they are "picking fights wisely," but to observers, it appears they spend all their time predicting defeat and "saving their energy" for fights they can win. Outsiders looking in do not see "wise selection," they see cowardice. When the rare "winnable fight" does materialize, it is often for some incremental step or practical end that inspires no one.



Bottom line: You can't fight terrorism if you can't fight Bush. How can members of the Democratic Party expect Americans to believe they can stand up to terrorists, if they can't stand up to the man who terrorized Americans into war with threats of "mushroom clouds in 45 minutes"?

Refuting the perception of weakness boosts general support for the Party

Fighting on principle, win or lose, shows strength and conviction -- Strength and conviction are qualities that the Democratic Party desperately needs to demonstrate.

There is no fight more critical than exposing the crimes against our constitutional democracy that have been committed by the fascists in this administration. Every candidate who takes up the fight for impeachment challenges the perception of "weak Democrats" and by so doing gives the entire party a boost.


There is no evidence to support the belief in electoral backlash

Many are attempting to invoke the electorate's response to Clinton's impeachment to support their claims that the electorate will have a similar negative response to an effort to impeach Bush. Such claims are absurd on there face.

More than 40% of the nation has opposed Bush from day one and the opposition is steadily growing. There is no conceivable scenario in which the support for impeaching Bush and Cheney would drop below 40%.

The 30% who steadfastly supported the impeachment of Clinton will oppose to the impeachment of Bush. Opposition to the impeachment of Bush and Cheney may never drop below 30%, but revelations in the course of investigation could drive that number down.

There is no evidence to suggest the 30% not yet accounted for would oppose impeachment, but evidence to the contrary can be found in polls. Even though leaders from both parties keeping are mum on impeachment, more than half the country believes Bush should be impeached if he knew his threat of mushroom clouds in 45 minutes was a lie.

In the failed impeachment of Bill Clinton, the negative reaction was rooted in the belief that the questions about President Clinton's sex life should not have been asked in the first place.

There are serious charges against Bush and Cheney, and serious questions that are unanswered. It is difficult to imagine a scenario in which the findings of an impeachment inquiry would lead the electorate to conclude that the charges should never have been investigated in the first place.


The strength of the opposition to Bush provides a secure floor
Since the beginning -- the theft of the 2000 election -- at least half of the electorate has been appalled and enraged by the horrors Bush has committed in our name.<[br />
The anger is spreading as more and more people are facing some hard, and alarming, facts about this administration. The trend is one way. The people who have opposed Bush all along are not turning around, and those who are turning against Bush now are unlikely to "unlearn" what they have learned.

But, with no leader giving voice to the anger, countless people are seething in silence. It is impossible to know the true numbers, but there is every indication that if our leaders stand up and give voice to the opposition, they would unleash the anger and see an unprecedented surge of support.



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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #239
259. You make my point nicely. Thank you.
>>Members of Congress take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

>>The power to Impeach is vested in Congress and Congress alone.


No shit.


This is why we need to take back Congress.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #259
264. The oath is an individual oath. The duty an individual duty.
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 09:23 PM by pat_k
Each member -- whether a member of the minority or the majority -- has a choice. Duty or complicity. Speak or be silent.

To stay silent until it's safe (e.g., until you have a majority) is cowardice.

Each day that members of Congress fail to carry out their sworn duty, George W. Bush can point to their failureas justification for his Un-American and Un-Constitutional claims to power (If his actions were violations wouldn't more members of Congress, who are sworn to act, be calling for impeachment?)

By providing cover, each and every member of Congress who fails to support and defend the Constitution by taking steps to force bushcheney out of power is aiding and abetting bushcheney's assertion of dictatorial power.

Treason is defined as "Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign." In the United States, it is the collective will of the people that is sovereign.

The occupants of the White House not only terrorized us into war with baseless threats of mushroom clouds, they are violating countless laws; invoking a fictional right to do so (e.g. claiming authority to continue criminal surveillance of Americans without warrants). Bush and Cheney are leading a conspiracy to violate our collective will. Their actions constitute treason against our constitutional democracy.

Bush and Cheney have made it crystal clear that nothing short of Impeachment will put an end to their treasonous exercise of unrestrained power.

It is difficult to believe the nation has been tolerating their egregious violations, but when countless Americans are so alienated from their own government, it shouldn't surprise us that they fail to recognize the creeping fascism that is subverting the principles and institutions established in our Constitution.

I understand why so many don't yet see the truth of our predicament, but I am always mystified when someone who acknowledges the magnitude of the violations nevertheless says "our leaders has better keep their mouths shut about it." (Leaders may think they are speaking out, but when the list of crimes is not followed by a demand for impeachment, it is nothing but empty complaint. And when they try to explain why they wouldn't impeach for such horrendous violations, they sound nuts.)

Want Dems to have a compelling and WINNING message of hope and renewal?

Here's a doozie: Impeach Bush Cheney

It may sound paradoxical to you, but as we fight to expose the abuses, we are renewing the American spirit of optimism as we call on our fellow citizens to reconnect to their government, recognize their own power, and recommit to the task of forming "a more perfect union."

What could be more positive than reminding each other:
  • that the Constitution is a contract among ourselves;
  • that we yielded NONE of our collective sovereignty to ANY institution we established;
  • that we gave NO party to the contract the right to usurp or surrender our collective sovereignty.
Good flows from doing the right thing. But even if there weren't so many rewards, when high officials in the Executive or Judiciary are subverting the Constitution, our representives in Congress are sworn to act, whatever the consequences. ("Fiat justitia, ruat coelum" -- "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall")

Want Dems to give Americans a way out of the quagmire in Iraq?

Step 1 is simple: Impeach Bush Cheney

A rogue regime seized the power of the American presidency on January 6th, 2001. The people of other nations can no longer appeal to good will of the American people because we surrendered the sovereignty of We the People.

The people and leaders of other nations have long known this.

Every day, more of our fellow citizens are coming to understand it.

As long as we leave governing power in the hands of men who are a law onto themselves, options that would be available to a legitimate American President will remain closed to us.

The conflict and chaos that is spreading inhumanity and destroying lives in the Middle East is not inevitable. We can transform resignation into hope right now by reasserting our collective sovereignty, forcing Bush and Cheney out of power, and turning them over to the Hague to answer for their war crimes.

If we restore legitimate leadership in the White House, the doors of possibility that are closed to the fascist war criminals will open

Legitimate American power can be transformed into a force for good overnight. We can commit our nation to the task of engaging the critical players (Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish blocs, ourselves, the EU, Turkey, Russia, China, the Arab League. . . ) and helping them to find solutions that can work because all the parties have a stake in making them work.

If, because of our complicity in the horrors committed by this regime our continued involvement is rejected, we must get out of the way, withdraw our troops, and begin to redeem ourselves by setting aside reparations that would be paid as negotiated milestones and conditions are met.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #264
271. Bottom line: get the Republicans out.
Congress is Republican controlled. We need to get them out of there. You rant well, but ranting will accomplish nothing.

Bottom line: get the Republicans out. Stop wasting time and start taking action to get them out. We only have 5 months left. These next 5 months will decide the fate of the world.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #271
278. Who's ranting? You make no case; you present no
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 12:51 PM by pat_k
. . . argument to support your position that demanding impeachment is not only a moral imperative, but would be a political winner. You rail against the simple truths and moral principles that are put before you, and make baseless and personal accusations.

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.
-- Eleanor Roosevelt

Your advocacy of immoral and cowardly silence to "get the Republicans out" wouldn't inspire a flea to flea to fight.

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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #278
279. What are you talking about? Political Winner? What the Fuck is that
supposed to mean?

What part of take back Congress don't you understand? Political winner? Duh! Give me a fucking break.

If you don't think we should be trying to get Democrats into office in November, then what are you doing here? And how do you think we achieve impeachment otherwise, by storming the White House with a mob and torches?

Wanting to impeach won't make it so. Being ABLE to impeach is about having the votes in Congress to do so. Your moral imperative isn't going to impress the likes of Allen or Santorum. They won't vote to impeach Bush. So how about doing something that will get us the votes we need to impeach? Or is that too difficult.

Instead of carrying on about morality, you should put YOUR morality where your mouth is and actually do something to gets some Democrats into office. Or better yet, why don't you get off your ass and run for office yourself?



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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #279
280. Demanding Impeachment, and the principle and strength doing so . .
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 03:32 PM by pat_k
demonstrates, is how the Dems win.

It is not just the right thing to do, it's the winning thing to do.

But, apparently, you believe the Democrats must not call for any action until they are guaranteed the votes to make it happen. Gee what a courageous approach. Do nothing on anything until you know it is safe.


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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #280
281. No courage in being naive. It take more courage and more discipline to
take action than it does to mouth off. Safe is hiding behind a keyboard and knocking the efforts of people who are actually out there in the trenches. Getting out there and working for a candidate or running for office takes work, discipine and courage.

I'm confused as to why a Democrat on a Democratic board would be talking down the idea of working to elect Democrats to office.

Is there some reason you don't want to see Democrats to take Congress back? Do you actually like George Allen or Ricky Santorum? I'm just asking because if you don't like them, then don't you think we should be doing something about getting rid of them?


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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #281
282. You're not behind a keyboard? Some of us can walk and chew gum.
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 12:38 AM by pat_k
Once again, you resort to baseless personal accusations to avoid addressing ideas.

You put up straw notions, like asserting that I'm "talking down the idea of working to elect Democrats to office" when I have done nothing of the sort -- and in fact am describing how dems win by standing on principle.

Democrats have a moral obligation to demand Impeachment. If they take up the fight, they will win by far bigger margins than if they do not take up the fight. What I am personally doing to make that happen is irrelevant to the point.

It's pretty darn simple. I can't help but think you are intentionally missing the point.




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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
122. The mistake that is being made is you think that most people agree with
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 08:14 PM by saracat
you. They don't. Kerry is not evil because he doesn't agree with what you say.In spite of what anyone thinks this was his election to concede or not. He had to make the decision. I was disappointed too . Perhaps he could have waited longer but the cards were stacked against him.Unlike you, He wanted proof positive because that would have been the only way to win. But he knew he wasn't going to get it.They wouldn't even allow access to the voting machines. They still haven't to the best of my knowledge! What would be used for evidence? Kerry did everything possible.And as for Barbara Boxer, she asked to be the only Senator objecting. Others had signed up to and she asked them to back off. She stated that it was because she had less to lose.
Kerry would have looked as bad as some tinfoil hat wearing lunatic. I for one am glad he doesn't look like a loon and remains intelligent and statesmanlike. Because it is not only the fringe voters and Democrats who get to vote. Even if Kerry got every Dem to vote and every Green, it would not be enough. You still have to pick up some Republicans , and if he was branded as a wacko he would never stand a chance of ever being elected. And I really don't see how that would benefit anyone but the people who hate him. JMHO.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #122
213. sorry, the election belongs to the people, not to kerry.
he has to do the moral, democratic thing, period, or he shows himself not worthy of the office.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
132. He faught? And then he was fraught.
Kerry wasn't afraid and isn't afraid of anything. He's smart and he knows how to play his cards. He doesn't tilt at windmills.

If he had contested the election, it would have achieved nothing but it would have HURT US. You know us... the DEMOCRATS?

There was no chance of winning but Kerry did the best possible thing under the circumstances. His decision allowed us to take the high road while exposing the low road. AND that is why we are going to take back Congress this year.

Now THAT is smart.

Public opinion is turning against Bush now, but they would have crucified all of us if the election was contested. You just don't get it do you? There was nothing legal that could have been done and we would have done a lot of damage to OUR credibility. Kerry is dedicated to serving us. Like a smart parent, he's not going to give us candy when we whine. He's going to do what is best for us, whether we realize it or not.

Now Gore did have a shot, not a good one, but it was still a shot. After the dust settled he totally walked away, washed his hands of the whole mess. I'll tell you: THAT made me feel betrayed.

Kerry hasn't walked away an inch. He's been fighting tooth and nail since that day with a schedule that would break a man half his age.

Our government has been infiltrated from very roots up. The Republican takeover didn't start with a single or even with two presidential elections. It was planted and nourished in every town and city and in even the bluest of states by a vast network of corruption. This network has been in place and growing for a long, long time. We need to root out the corruption.

The ONLY way we do this is by fighting back. Fight the Republicans, not the Democrats. Not the person who is fighting the hardest to take Congress back and earning more money than other one person toward that goal.

On the other hand, if you can tell me one positive thing that can come from whining, I'll be happy to join in. Just tell me how it can help us and I'll be happy to throw a huge whine-in.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry promised that all the minority votes would be counted,
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 04:43 PM by petgoat
then caved before they were.

I devoted Oct. 2004 to getting Kerry elected and I am
extremely pissed off at him.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Which votes weren't counted?
The provisionals were ultimately counted in accordance with existing Ohio law.

What legal recourse (please specify the exact law in the state or federal code) was there to do something differently?

Meanwhile, Kerry remained involved in lawsuits which still continue to this day.

I don't understand what you folks think he could have actually done other than crying "I wuz robbed!"
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. The precinct in Cleveland with 7% turnout --
Their votes weren't counted. There is NO WAY that the rest of the people who turned up to vote, voted provisionally.

Ballots in Warren County that were shifted between precincts so that votes for Kerry were counted for Bush -- those votes were stolen (not counted).

Votes cast electronically that were shifted from Kerry to Bush on rigged electronic voting machines were stolen (not counted).

80,000 votes for Kerry were shifted to Bush.

Voters who were given ballots pre-punched for Bush had their votes stolen - if they voted for Kerry, then their ballots were not counted because it appeared that they 'misvoted' as if they had voted for both Bush and Kerry. 98,000 ballots were reported to have 'no vote' or 'over-votes'.

People who VOTED had THEIR VOTES STOLEN.

:mad:

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. What procedure would you use to recount those votes?
That, in the 7% case at least, don't even exist?

Where is the law that says a judge can order that action?

It seems to me that Kerry is working with others on fixing the laws. For example:

S.391 : A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to prohibit certain State election administration officials from actively participating in electoral campaigns. Sponsor: Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. (introduced 2/16/2005) Cosponsors (5) Committees: Senate Rules and Administration Latest Major Action: 2/16/2005 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Rules and Administration.

FIVE cosponsors?

Yeah, we've got Kerry's back alright. :eyes:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. Oh, and where is the PROOF of any of this?
Please link directly to the conclusive proof.

I would think that if there was evidence that would stand up in a court of law, out of all of those allegedly disenfranchised voters, someone would be happy to file a lawsuit. If the evidence is any good, I am sure there would be no shortage of lawyers willing to work pro bono on the case.

The reason this hasn't happened IS BECAUSE NOBODY HAS COME FORWARD WITH ANY FUCKING EVIDENCE THAT WILL STAND UP IN A COURT OF LAW.

Sheesh.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
224. The provisionals have not yet been counted!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Do you understand that those votes weren't cast because
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 04:50 PM by ProSense
people gave up due to long lines and other tactics? You can't count votes that weren't cast!
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Wait...
you mean you can't recount the vote of someone who gave up and went away without voting?

Sheesh...never thought of that...

:sarcasm:
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Votes cast by voters were stolen.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Again, what procedure would you use to recount those votes that weren't
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. The implication that there was 7% voter turnout is that votes WERE
cast, but not counted. Did you read the rest of my post about the pre-punched ballots, the ballots shifted between precincts so Kerry votes would be counted for Bush? They could've seized the ballots and machines and conducted a formal investigation.

And your use of the dismissive :eyes: is insulting.

Open your EYES and get your nose just a little bit out of your law books.

Kerry made a mistake by conceding. We needed a full investigation TO GET evidence that was legally actionable. We needed media coverage to make REAL changes.

Why doesn't Kerry have enough co-sponsors for his bill? I bet HE WOULD have them if the ENTIRE NATION was up in arms about the FILTH that happened in Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, Florida, Pennsylvania...

The entire nation might just've been up in arms if Conyers' hearings had been on national TV - if the media had stuck around - if Kerry had not conceded.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Implication??? That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.
It damn sure won't get you any action on changing the outcome of the election.

The only media coverage Kerry would have gotten would have been as bad as it was pre-election. You think they're using Kerry to dismiss election fraud now? It would have been ten times worse with the mighty wurlitzer repeating the "sore loser sore loser sore loser there is nothing there he's just a sore loser" crap ad nauseum ad infinitum.

I think you are just trying to blame Kerry. There are things that can be done to fight back against election fraud - many people in many states are doing it - yet you and a few other posters on this board seem to just want to take up a lot of time complaining about what Kerry did or didn't do.

Maybe you should put your noses in some law books and figure out how to fix the problems in your own state, or in a neighboring state if yours is either fine or too hopelessly fucked up/republican controlled (yes I realize that last set of phrases is redundant).
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. There was enough to warrant further investigation. The investigation
would not happen after Kerry conceded. Attacking me about what I am doing (or not doing locally) does not answer the following questions:

What is the responsibility of a Democratic Party candidate re: election fraud?

What is the responsibility of the Democratic Party itself re: election fraud?



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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #73
84. It most certain can happen! What do you think this is all about? n/t
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
67. It is called contesting the election.
if the election does not represent the voter's INTENT (remember Florida? remember the supreme court, who went against election law?), then that election is not valid. If someone purposefully (say kenneth blackwell, for example) made that happen by not distributing voting machines equitably, than that person has committed a felony. for example.
then you have all the people who voted for kerry and the machine registered bush.
then you have the 350,000 uncounted votes in ohio. (people who were in the worng precincts becuase the location changed, people who had names similar to felons.) 350,000!
350,000 uncounted votes in ohio are still uncounted.
still uncounted.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Please see this reply... Votes cast by voters were stolen.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Are you kidding?
The machines had to be secured to determine that. Ken Blackwell and GOP buddies denied the campaign access to the machines. That is in the OP. Also, in NM, Gov. Richardson denied access to those machines.

Machine fraud is and will be one of the hardest things to prove without physical evidence or a smoking gun witness.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. I agree! I agree! Except - we didn't have to seize machines in
Ohio - most of the counties were still using punch card machines from the Triad corporation. Those ballots could've been seized -- and if we could not get them because of partisan machinations of Blackwell -- then, still, national media coverage of the Blackwell's unethical behavior could've made a difference in what people learned about "What Happened in Ohio".

The public's attention was ready to turn to the "drama after the electon" - lots of people were braced for it. If Kerry had not conceded then WE (not Kerry alone) - but WE could've made the most of that national media attention.

This is my *big* point - agree or disagree: If Kerry had not conceded, there would've been national media coverage of Ohio (and perhaps other areas) -- and greater likelihood of federal investigation.

#1 RULE: DO NOT CONCEDE. Make big, big, big, big media stink. I am NOT WHINING. I am the Democratic Party candidate and I am hear to DEFEND the votes of the people. :patriot:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. If Kerry had not conceded,
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 05:30 PM by ProSense
Congress (the majority party, see Conyers' text in the OP) would have had to launch an investigation (that was not going to happen), and more Senators would have had to contest the election in January (that was not going to happen since many of them didn't believe fraud happened).

Since Kerry conceding had nothing to do with proving election fraud, it would have been better if his efforts in Ohio had succeeded.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. In THIS ELECTION all the votes will be counted" Edwards famous
last words (after that they bound and gagged him - he is still unable to fight - or he surely would, honestly).
Mind you, the emphasys "in this election" was meant as a dig at Gore.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. One comment: Kerry should not have conceded for at least several weeks.
The corporate media, lapdog sharks would've eviscerated Kerry in every way possible.

I am aware that Kerry has taken legal and legislative action. That, to me, is not enough - especially not for a candidate who said he 'had our backs.'

Had Kerry not conceded the national media would've kept their cameras rolling in Ohio - Conyers said that his hearing lasted 2 days, but with the rage of voters it could've lasted 2 weeks.

Imagine cameras rolling with enraged disenfranchised voters appearing day after day.

Imagine Clint Curtis' testimony about rigged software on national TV.

Imagine that New Mexico & Pennsylvania & other very suspicious states had gotten coverage so that everyone in the US knew for sure that the election had been far, far from clean.

The moment the stolen Presidential election is the THE moment that national attention could have been focused on this urgent issue.

Would Kerry have been able to collect the information that he needed to take the election that WE had won? Don't know. Would a federal investigation have been triggered before the Electoral College met if Kerry had not conceded immediately? Don't know.

I remain disappointed with Kerry about conceding so soon. I remain disappointed that he has not spoken out more forcefully -- in a way similar to what Kennedy has said in his article.

Finally - here is my new #1 rule for ALL Democratic Party candidates:
DO NOT CONCEDE. It is no longer the duty or right of Democratic Party candidates to concede. The voters will concede when and if we are convinced the election was free and fair. Until then DO NOT CONCEDE.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Several months
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 04:59 PM by ProSense
and until Conyers' report came out in January stating that:

B. Need for Further Congressional Hearings

It is also clear the U.S. Congress needs to conduct additional and more vigorous hearings into the irregularities in the Ohio presidential election and around the country.


Snip...

As a result, it appears that the only means of obtaining his cooperation in any congressional investigation is under the threat of subpoena, which only the Majority may require.



Or several months from then when the DNC Report issued its report.


Or several months then when the GAO issued it report calling for an investigation.


Or several months from then when RFK Jr. issues his research calling for an investigation.


Kerry was right to concede, as RFK points out in reference to legal evidence.


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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. No, IMO, RFK does *not* say Kerry was right to concede.
He simply repeats Kerry's explanation for why he conceded - he didn't have the evidence he needed.

He should've stuck around to find the evidence!!!

Congressman Conyers held hearings with Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs-Jones in Ohio in the beginning of December and Senator Kerry should've been there -- having not yet conceded!!

How ridiculous: Kerry should've conceded because the Conyer's report had not been published yet. Holy fucking sheep shit. Conyers and his staff worked themselves to exhaustion to hold those hearings and produce that report all during November and December. Election fraud activists worked themselves into exhaustion helping to organize the hearings in Ohio and busted their asses to get the corporate goddamn media to cover the issue.

AND ALL KERRY NEEDED TO DO TO ENSURE NATIONAL COVERAGE was to not concede.

Instead, Blackwell gets away with lying that the election was nice and tidy.

:mad:

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. No! RFK Jr. stated a fact. Don't play the man dumb to suit your needs! n/t
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Excellent! here's a button for ya:
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
56. Great button, RV! One edit: Concede Nothing To Corrupt GOP! (n/t)
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
55. Right on!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Wrong!
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. Prosense, methinks you haven't yet read up on ohio.
Have you at least seen the footage from Ohio? There is tons of documentation. Do you actually trust HAVA and our current voting system? Are you aware of all the lawsuits going on right now?
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. And this is not personal about John Kerry. he is a fine man. I voted for
him. I raised moneyfor him. I walked door to door for him. But he fucked up BIG TIME in 2004. And it will cost the entire world. It has cost thousands of lives even. The people were all out for Kerry. he would have been backed up all the way to the white house had he stood up. His only risk, losing some republican friendship and a "nice" label.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Are you sure you know what's going on? Doesn't appear to be the case n/t
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #76
200. here is the why straight from Kerry's mouth. "sour grapes"
"Sour grapes" are not a good enough reason to hand this country on a platter to the neocons.


New York University professor and author Mark Crispin Miller says in an interview on Democracy Now!: “ told me he now thinks the election was stolen. He says he doesn't believe he is the person that can be out in front because of the sour grapes question."

If you need links, go to solarbus.org. Order the free Cd with 2 hours of videos on Ohio 2004. It is simple, so anyone can understand. And has been avialbale for free for a vrery long time. Also I highly recommend you google and watch the 15min video of the congressional hearing, (in Ohio. Kerry didn't attend. Didn't want to "look like a sore loser". Many congresspeople and senators did attend and did fight. He just wasn't one of them. specifically the one where the computer expert testifies under oath that he was told to write software to flip the votes in Florida and did so. And that it could not ever be detected if it were done in OHio.
there are many many links easily available. Watch what the people in Ohio went through to try to vote, and you will change your mind.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #200
204. Sorry, nothing in that post is straight from Kerry's mouth. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. Don't assume! n/t
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
119. You're absolutely right, IndyOp.
>>Had Kerry not conceded the national media would've kept their cameras rolling in Ohio - Conyers said that his hearing lasted 2 days, but with the rage of voters it could've lasted 2 weeks.

Imagine cameras rolling with enraged disenfranchised voters appearing day after day.

Imagine Clint Curtis' testimony about rigged software on national TV.

Imagine that New Mexico & Pennsylvania & other very suspicious states had gotten coverage so that everyone in the US knew for sure that the election had been far, far from clean.<<

I can very easily imagine all that. Kerry's concession is what made it possible for the corporate media to bury the story of the crime of the century. It allowed them to push b.s. about "values voters" and "reluctant Bush responders" as allegedly plausible explanations for Dubya's so-called "victory."
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #119
127. The media that helped spread
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 08:34 PM by ProSense
the Swift Liars message and prop Bush up would suddenly be willing to follow Kerry and Conyers around to expose Republican corruption? Unbelievable!

Does anyone not understand the scope of evidence that would be needed to prove this election was stolen? Four extensive reports (Conyers, DNC, GAO, RFK Jr.), challenges from many lawyers and not one court case makes (League of Women Voters the exception) it the distance because Ohio's government is Republican controlled. The machine fraud part was not even close because, as all the reports point out, that would require a thorough federal investigation and physical evidence. Even Democrats like Bill Richardson did see the need to give access to the machines.


Here is how it would have played out had Kerry not conceded:

The legal challenges he mounted would have been thrown out by the same parties that did so. Access to the machines would still have been denied

Several months later Conyers' report would out stating that:


B. Need for Further Congressional Hearings

It is also clear the U.S. Congress needs to conduct additional and more vigorous hearings into the irregularities in the Ohio presidential election and around the country.

Snip...

As a result, it appears that the only means of obtaining his cooperation in any congressional investigation is under the threat of subpoena, which only the Majority may require.


Boxer would have been the only Senator to mount a challenge. Bush would have been sworn in.

Several months from then the DNC Report would issue its report.

Several months later the GAO would issue it report calling for an investigation.

Until RFK Jr. issued his research calling for an investigation.


Kerry was right to concede, as RFK points out in reference the lack of legal evidence.


The only way is an investigation! And that would also require full party support!




Good luck relying on the media to help Democrats:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2660344&mesg_id=2660344
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
49. Thank you for reminding us that Kerry did protest.
K&R'd. :kick:
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
69. Kerry concluded the day after election...
that they were "lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results."

My, isn't he omniscient. He's up there with Bill Frist and his diagnosis of Terry Schiavo via videotape.

All those lawyers at his disposal, all that money many of us sent him; yet he was able to conclude on his own that there was not enough legal evidence to contest the results. Smells like a load of crap to me.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. crap we will not fall for again.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
83. Is that in the text or are you practicing to be a revisionist?
RFK Jr. text (in case you missed it in the OP):

By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded.
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. Maybe he should have used all those lawyers and all that money...
to actually investigate whether there was legal evidence to contest the results.

Instead, he gave up without even a pretense of a fight.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. The information is handed to you and you're still in denial! n/t
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
96. With all those lawyers at his disposal aren't you OMNISCIENT to decide
that those lawyers weren't responsible for the conclusion? I guess you were the fly on the wall at the legal briefings and you heard the consensus of the legal team and what they advised the Kerry campaign.

Must have made you feel powerful indeed to be privy to such high power stuff.

Yeah, I agree. There certainly is a load of crap...somewhere around here.
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #96
110. Let's not make this personal...
OK?
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #110
154. I'm just throwing back the ball you tossed out. If you don't like it, then
you shouldn't start personal attacks on Democrats. That is the kind of stuff that is lauded in Freeperville, but if you want to start the kinda bullshit here, then you should be prepared to reap what you sow.

Attacks are not discussions. There is nothing civil about the things you have been saying about Senator Kerry. You want nice? Well be nice.
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #154
192. You know as well as I do that I am not personally attacking Kerry.
I am voicing an opinion about the way he handled himself after the election.

Per DU rules, you and I are allowed to critizice public figures. We are not allowed to criticize each other.

Feel free to disagree with my opinion. But leave the personal insults out of the conversation.

If you can't do this, please don't respond, or better yet, put me on ignore.

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #96
135. Lawyers were recalled from the tarmac election night
They were en route to Ohio - but some politicos decided that Kerry would look bad if he did that - so they folded instead. It was Kerry's POLITICAL decision, not the lawyers. Info from one of the lawyers - Mike Papantonio (on AAR's Ring of Fire with RFK jr). Info volunteered against interest upon angry questioning by an angry voter on AAR - days after the concession.
So, I may not be omniscient, but I do know this. Boston Globe had an article on this too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. Got links? Did he help file the motions in Ohio?
Or did Kerry have otherlawyers working on leagal challenge? Provide details.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. No links. Listened on Ring of Fire, AAR.
Somewhere there's a Boston Globe story to the same effect - but it's not worth searching as your worship is as inshakeable as the backwash's for W.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. I thought so! Did this lawyer file the Ohio legal motions? n/t
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 10:03 PM by ProSense
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #135
151. Not all lawyers agree but the concensus stood that it was not feasable to
contest at that point in time. Period. There are enough facts out there but you choose to cherry pick the ones you want to believe. I wonder why that is?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
81. Great post!
If Robert is taking a stand on this, I think that we should join with him. I will be doing the things you suggest in this post. Thank you!
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. H20 Man? This isn't about RFK taking a stand, it is about Kerry
whether Kerry has or has not done enough about 2004. IMO he should not have conceded so early. IMO it would be GREAT if Kerry would now stand up and do what RFK is doing - speak full power truth to power - the American citizens.

Is that what you meant? Kerry should follow in Kennedy's footsteps?

:shrug:

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
100. I Agree... Excellent Post
I like Kerry and would be willing to help him get elected as President.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Facts are not apologies. Kerry is doing well despite your denial n/t
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. If you're looking to lose the 2008 election, I guess Kerry's your man.
The FACTS are that Kerry really struggled to maintain his message during the 2004 election and he FAILED to respond quickly to the Swiftboaters.

It is also a FACT that Kerry is given to stupid campaign gaffs that play right into the RW media machine (i.e., "voted for it before he voted against it."; Lambert field gaff; etc.).

Kerry is a fine man, but he just lacks the charisma and "everyperson" quality necessary for Presidential elections these days.

J
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Lacks charisma???
:rofl:

As for the rest, sounds like RW tripe to me.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
116. How about "Gore invented the internet"?
Even after all these years that is one of the right wings favorite quotes. Bush even repeated it in the debate, but Gore simply ignored it.

During the 2000 election I got sooooo sick of the "Gore is a liar" mantra, and all the unfounded quotes attributed to Gore, that I wrote to his campaign and begged them to come out publicly and refute the "Gore is a liar" mantra. They didn't do a very good job of it, did they?

And remember that little story that Gore was trying to tell about someone's mother's pills and totally screwed it up and we had to hear about that ad nauseum? Several other such things that he screwed up?

How quickly they forget.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I also asked his campaign
To have him to stop trying to repeat little anecdotes such as the pills story. Then there was the one about the chairs in the classroom. Remember that one? He screwed that one up too as he did many others.

Remember the girl and her father came out and told the press that Gore had it all wrong? The girl didn't have a desk just for that one day because renovations were going on?

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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #104
201. Your "every person" is generally not qualified to be president.
People always resort to calling their opinion "FACTS" when they can't sustain their arguement. Saying so don't make it true, Noodley.

As for charisma, let me put it this way: for a man in his sixties to draw so many batting eyelashes, he must have something going in the charisma department.

I've met Senator Kerry several times and found him to be very down-to-earth and charming. He's smart, funny, witty and very, very tough. As nails. I honestly wish you could get a chance to sit down with him over a beer like I got to last December. He'd probably agree with you on the stupid campaign gaffs.

Wouldn't your "everyperson" be human? Doesn't every person make a mistake or two. In Kerry's case, they are far fewer than most, but they get far more publicity. Why is that? Couldn't be our media. Nah.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #201
255. I hope you're right, but don't count me in to vote for Kerry or Hillary.
And, I suspect that I'm not alone in my refusal to get behind Kerry or Hillary for 2008. It's time for new blood devoid of poll politic positions. Whether you like it or not, Kerry and Hillary both try to "play the middle" with issues in hopes of not offending anyone. Well, this approach comes off as waffling and disingenious to the very people they are hoping to capture.

We need candidates that will speak their positions and call it straight without worrying about offending. People are looking for leaders with firm positions on issues, and not those who promulgate an amalgamation of diverse US opinions.

BTW - my "facts" were supported by the actual outcomes. Kerry did have a hard time staying on message in 2004.

J
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #255
258. Incorrect. He stayed on message and I can give you 1000 quotes
and the speeches he made them in if you like, but warning, each one will be a separate post. I can even post the entire speeches with bolded passages if you feel like reading. The message never wavered. He said the same things before, during and after the election. I've just gone through about 100 speeches and op-eds the senator gave and wrote to harvest a list of quotations on various subjects and what impressed me most was how spot on he was on the message. The problem wasn't the message: it was that the message needed to be broadcast better.

I absolutely agree that the message did not get out as it should have. Partly, the campaign was to blame, but only partly. Only selected pieces of the messages, ones the media chose to highlight, got any mention at all. Another problem was the questions asked of the senator often diverted the subject away from the issues and toward something like the Swifties.

Now I've heard people here whining that Kerry didn't fight back often enough or hit the swifities back hard enough, that he should have called Bush and John O'Neill out over the SBVFT, that he should have started a law suit. Between the multiple stops in Kansas or the ones in Florida? Then the same people say he didn't spend more time on the SBVFT episode are the first to also whine that he didn't stay on message. :rofl:

It is a fact that some people will never be pleased no matter what. These people will never be satisfied no matter who they vote for. My suggestion to these folks: get off the bench and run for something yourself. Give it a shot. What have you got to lose?


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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. awwwwwwwwwww
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #97
105. I counter LIES - you would prefer people not access FACTS and only go by
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 06:45 PM by blm
SPIN to draw their conclusions.

No one has to apologize for Kerry.

His record is the best in DC and he has done more to expose Government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

Maybe THAT is why you want him to disappear.
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #97
112. You will also be attacked personally...
we must be hitting a sore spot.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Baiting doesn't change the fact that you are ignoring the facts. n/t
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. ???
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #113
223. And do you think the facts point to an honest election in 2004 or
to election fraud?
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
153. Okay, now you're going over the edge with LOONY assmptions.
Sounds kind FREEPERISH if you ask me.

We are supposed to be Democrats. I don't know what you are, but I don't think you are being much of a loyal Dem.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #97
228. The voters will decide that
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 02:34 AM by politicasista
Besides Kerry is focused on 06 and helping Dems get elected. What have you done for Democratic candidates?

Since you have a crystal ball, who will be the grassroots candidate for 08 and why?

Who can wave the magic wand, dress up like Superman, and run that perfect/flawless campaign everyone here drools about?
Who can go through the GOP controlled media smear-free?
Who can emphasize fair elections and voting machines?


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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
98. Maybe it's his personality.....
But Kerry did not fight tooth and nail for a win. He did the, "Reporting for Duty" thingie, and that's about as animated as he became. In fact, he was even sweet to Bush during the debates, he was the first one to get out there eagerly to shake his hand. He disappointed me greatly. I'm sorry but I'm not going to lie about it. I supported Kerry. I gave $ to his campaign. I fought for him. I campaigned for him. I didn't just talk. Kerry, however never fought. He is evidently not angry like most Democrats are. Was never angry about what Bush was doing. He was just zippadeedooda about the whole thing.

I want Gore as my next president. He's a fighter who will fight no matter what the circumstances. I want someone angry, someone who will fight.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #98
108. Gore didn't shake Bush's hand during the debate? Gore AGREED with Bush for
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 06:51 PM by blm
most of their second debate.

Revisionist history doesn't cut it.

Did you never notice that Gore got screwed by election fraud and spent the next four years NOT WORKING On election fraud issues. That's not a fighter.

A real fighter would have taken the issue and made it a priority WITHIN THE DEM PARTY and work to strengthen the infrastructure that dealt with election issues state by state.

Gore learned alot during his experience and chose to stay silent on the issue. His election team from 2000 was used by Kerry in 2004, with the assumption they knew what to look for. That worked out well, didn't it?
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #98
129. You are wrong about Kerry.
He fought and continues to fight with words and deeds. He has the passion and drive to fight for another chance and he has a broader knowledge and a more extensive resume than Gore. VP Gore only begun to fight after he supposedly lost his election. He virtually retired for five years then comes back with a new anger.
Senator Kerry has said he has unfinished business he would like to have an opportunity to finish, Gore seems to still be running against Bush. Frankly, he seems to have found a cause he can promote and he seems content where he is.

If I was given a choice, I would give Senator Kerry a second chance. He really wants to change our course for the better and has been working so hard for all of us.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
102. k/r -Here's my favorite link, CONTACT YOUR SENATORS
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
115. Oh, wow, What a tiger!
Gore fought for 36 days? Then, what did he do? Why did he quit fighting for the voters just because he lost an election? You don't suppose winning the election for himself was all he cared about, do you? Why didn't he continue to fight election fraud, voter disenfranchisement, voter suppression, Rove dirty tricks campaigning, etc, etc.? Why didn't he continue to work and fight for the party?

You would have preferred that Kerry did what Gore did? Fight for 36 days and then drop us like a hot potato? Turn his back on the party, on the voters' rights? Forget we existed for a few years then come back and play the big hero because he fought for 36 days?

All i see here is a bunch of uninformed, whiney cry babies. Are you resentful that, after 36 days, Gore turned his back on you, and you are transferring that resentment onto Kerry, because Kerry is still fighting the good fight? Because Kerry was able to set aside his own dreams when he saw there was no way to overturn the election, and, instead fight for the voters, the country and the party? Goodness, how selfish is that, putting the greater need before your own wishes and hopes. Damn you, Kerry.

Sorry, the REAL hero is the man who stayed and fought for us and still is fighting for us. The man who is fighting in a mature, thought out fashion, the man who is fighting like a man, not jumping up and down screaming like a 2 year old who is denied a cookie.

Don't think I have seen anyone present the grounds on which Kerry could have contested the election.

Kerry was out of the country when the election was contested in the Senate because he and the others agreed that it would be in the best interests of everyone if it was about the fraud and dirty tricks instead of about Kerry. He was out of the country because, again, he was putting the greater interest ahead of his own personal interest.



Oh, and btw, I read somewhere that if Gore had asked for recounts in all the counties, which is what they tried to get him to do instead of just certain counties, he could have overturned that election in 2000. Damn, we all make mistakes, don't we, even heros.


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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Now that is just flat-out UNFAIR!!!
Re >>You would have preferred that Kerry did what Gore did? Fight for 36 days and then drop us like a hot potato? Turn his back on the party, on the voters' rights? Forget we existed for a few years then come back and play the big hero because he fought for 36 days?<<

Al Gore didn't "drop us like a hot potato." After the 2000 election, he no longer had an elected office. Kerry remains a senator, so it's appropriate that he continue to fight for us in the legislative arena. After the 2000 sElection, Al Gore was neither vice-president nor senator. Officially, he returned to private life. Just exactly what platform was supposed to use to advance the issue of election reform? I guess he could have gone around the country making speeches about it. But he chose to focus on the issue that has preoccupied him for at least 20 years, namely the environment. And he's done more to bring environmental issues into the public consciousness than anyone else I can think of. I don't call that turning his back on us!
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Oh, and the crap you idiots spew about Kerry is fair?
How much of his time has he spent on the environmental issue? He can't do more than one thing at a time? What platform? Maybe the democratic party platform? He didn't have to be a government official to work on election fraud issues. How many private organizations are doing just that very thing? I get e-mails from them all the time.

Sure, it's appropriate that Kerry continues to fight for us in the legislative arena. It's also appropriate that your ilk recognize and acknowlede what he is doing and stop acting like Karl Rove's swiftboaters, swiftboating a member of your own party. How sick is that?
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
191. Look, about the last thing I wanted
was to get into a Gore vs. Kerry flamefest, because I LIKE both of them. I wasn't attacking Kerry, much less swiftboating him! I'm on his e-mail list and I'm fully aware of what he's been doing in the Senate, in the environmental and other areas. But I did take offense at your accusation that Gore fought for 38 days and then cut and ran. The Supreme Court took that decision out of his hands and there was nothing he could do at that point. But BECAUSE of those 38 days, he now has a better chance at the 2008 nomination than Kerry does.

Okay, it's 20/20 hindsight, but the very worst thing about Kerry's concession on November 3rd is that it enabled the news blackout on election issues and allowed the corporate media to dismiss election activists as "conspiracy wackos." And it STILL hurts our credibility and even hurts RFK Jr.'s credibility, although he's a lot harder to ignore than a bunch of wacko bloggers.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. He grew a beard, grew fat and taught at a university. That is what
he did. He could have stayed active in the party. He could have run for another office. he could have-run in 2004 but didn't. He had media attention, he could have utilized it and fought for fairer elections, but he didn't.
It seems to me, VP Gore needed the five years or so he took to recover from his loss. He is a good man, but he should stay where he is. He seems to have found a place where he can do much good and appears very happy.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #125
133. Oh, how free republic of you! Kerry started running his next campaign
before explaining to us what happened to the first one.
I am not a supposrter of either - but for any kerry operative to accuse Gore of cowardice is like the chickenhawks accusing Murtha of not supporting the troops. You guys are so steeped in your little talking points you lose any understanding of the historical significance of the events we discuss. This is not a fan club (or two). It's our friggin' democracy we discuss about and I am sick and tired of petty lawuerly excuses ("but his case was not too good") - when it comes to my right to vote. His leadership was called for and

HE BLEW IT



Case closed. I'll stay home if mr "no patience for those crying in their teacups about stolen elections" is on the ballot.
I'd rather not have Gore either, but him I could pull the lever for. At least he showed some respect for my vote.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. Where are the talking points in the OP? Where are the facts in your post?
The talking points (fan club, Kery operatives) you spew are designed to mask over your refusal to deal with the facts! Is home a shelter from facts?
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #136
140. Is kerry planning to 'run" again in 2008 or not? Did he not wink
in that direction since day two after the concession? This is the fact that colors my understanding of all his actions. Appease everyone, hope they'll forget and be suckered again. No mention of the stolen election ANYWHERE. Except to Crispin Miller - but that was quickly retracted. All the rest is campaigning.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. You believe he winked? That's odd. Support RFK Jr., write the press n/t
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 09:57 PM by ProSense
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #140
236. Yeah - he's acting the same way he's ALWAYS ACTED as a senator for clean
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 07:22 AM by blm
and open government and his ENTIRE CAREER SUPPORTS THAT FACT.

No one with an honest read of history could say that Kerry only acts for elections and campaigns.

On the other hand - since you want to compare Gore and Kerry so much - look at BOTH lists of the battles they CHOSEE to take on while BOTH were in the senate and then try to tell me that Kerry is the political campaigner while Gore is courageous.

Yeah - it takes courage to attack dirty song lyrics while another senator was fluffing off with his work to expose IranContra, BCCI and illegal wars in Central America - oops - Gore supported those policies didn't he ..... but, he must have been COURAGEOUS about it, right?
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #133
186. Your quote.
"At least he showed some respect for my vote."

How? By fighting for 38 days and then walking away?

You're damned right this is our democracy we are fighting for. Why didn't Gore stay and help us fight?

No, this is not a fan club, and you owe it to yourself and to the country to know what you are talking about before you "swiftboat" an honorable man.

I like both Kerry and Gore, but, you cannot claim that Gore's fighting for 38 days served any purpose whatsoever, as far as cleaning up our election system and preserving our right to vote.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #133
188. How quickly you bring up your "home page" Hmmmm..... thought so! n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #118
159. Gore could have worked with the DNC
or a liberal think tank. It's harder for Kerry to work on this issue because he is a Senator. The position gives him a platform, but also means there are many things he is supposed to do.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #159
162. Ha! The DNC were the ones who told him to concede!
They told him to give up.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #162
168. That doesn't mean he couldn't work on election fraud.
He could have been a driving force to get the DNC or another organization to focus on election fraud.

I am not saying that he should have. They want to claim he's a fighter because he fought for 38 days, then got lost in his private life.

Kerry could have done the same thing. He could have resigned from the Senate. You really think he needs that Senate paycheck?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Really! Gore gave up the presidency cause the DNC told him to? n/t
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. No, he was forced to when the SCOTUS handed down their decision.
There was no help, though, from the party or his running mate.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. Geezus!
What did you expect the party or his running mate to do after the Supreme Court decision?
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. Geezus yourself. I meant BEFORE the Supreme Court decision.
The Party and his running mate told him to give up BEFORE the decision.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #176
189. Ok, sorry, I misunderstood you.
IMO, if he were only going to recount 6 or so counties, he obviously may as well have given up.

Tell me something, please? What did that 38 day fight accomplish? I didn't see any improvement in our election system after that. Quite the opposite.

You prefer to fight for 38 days, then walk away, or stay to fight another day, and another, and another, week after week, month after month, year after year?

Who was the real quitter here and who is still fighting for our right to vote in an honest election?

Defend Gore all you want, just, please, don't tell me that he fights harder than Kerry. Kerry could have resigned from the Senate and walked away. But, he didn't. He stayed to fight another day, for as long as it takes.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #189
245. Did John Kerry have to spend 36 days with crowds outside his home
screaming, "Get out of Cheney's house!"? Did John Kerry have the press and the GOP calling him "Soreloserman"? Did John Kerry have the DNC and his entire party telling him to "give it up"? Hey, remember the "Brooks Brothers riot" in Florida?

I'm pleased John Kerry kept his job to go back to. The Vice President didn't have that luxury.

And as far as the poster I originally responded to, no, Gore couldn't have worked with the DNC on the election problem, because the DNC wanted him to give up and they didn't want to deal with it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #162
240. And why let the DNC have the next 4 years to screw up the next election?
The DNC party heads is a small number of people - it's the MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of Democratic VOTERS who Gore should have worked to protect based on all that he learned from his own experience.

Working to strengthen the Dem infrastructure should have been his first order of business after he regained his footing. Instead, Sitting back and watching while the party infrastructure was collapsing further should NOT have been an option.


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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #240
248. The Dem infrastructure wanted nothing to do with him.
Sitting back and watching? Haven't you noticed Gore made some of the most amazing speeches ever since before the war? You're the one always talking about how the press pays no attention to Kerry — isn't that also the case with other Democrats?

BTW, how much power do you think he has as a private citizen?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #248
249. About ELECTION FRAUD - if he KNEW ABOUT IT he should have WORKED ON IT
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 10:11 AM by blm
and the Dem infrastructure is made up of alot more Dems than the party heads - I grant that party heads before 2005 are buttheads - but sounding the alarm on all he learned and knowing the weak Dem infrastructure is what really did him in, he should have taken ON that battle. He should have worked to SCHOOL every election board on what to look for.

For US. For the country. The people who really had the most to lose.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #162
256. That wouldn't stop him from
working with him on election fraud in 2001, 2002, 2003.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #256
257. When did McAuliffe leave? February 2005. NT
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #115
134. When Al Gore walked away my life came crashing down around me.
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 09:28 PM by _dynamicdems
and I didn't fully recover until the day I heard John Kerry give his concession speech. He said he was conceding but he also promised he would still be here for us and he would never give up the fight. He has been true to his word.

While the rest of the world saw as defeat and concession, many of us saw the truth: John Kerry wasn't conceding a DAMN FUCKING THING. That moment, that so many here deride so glibly was the biggest inspiration of my life. I'd lost all faith after Gore turned tail and ran. I trusted Al Gore and it hurt like HELL to be abandoned by our leader in time of crisis. He went off to lick his wounds. What about US?

Part of me understands why Gore did that. Heck, I would have too, BUT a leader is supposed to be a leader and stand by his people. The bottom line is that Gore bitched longer but he ultimately ran. Kerry didn't bitch as long because (with the help of a top notch legal team) he saw the writing on the wall. But he's stood here ever since WATCHING every single move in Washington...and planning on how to BRING DOWN THE DYNASTY that allowed this to happen. Make no mistake, that is EXACTLY what the Senator is doing.

John Kerry conceded the presidency but he NEVER CONCEDED THE MISSION. He never walked away from us. He's been on the job every single day since the election and I don't mean the job of Senator. He's also been our strongest advocate. He's been our voice and he's been the voice of dissension, again and again calling Bush out and demanding investigations and accountability.

I wish all Democrats would be as noble, strong and courageous as John Kerry. He never, ever thinks about himself. He never, ever attacks another Democrat. And he never, ever gives up or gives in.

He's a real hero and that probably scares some people. Wonder why?

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #134
138. The concession was the high point for you???? You need a life!
I was crushed by Gore's dropping out in 2003 as well (then drafted Clark and recovered).
kerry's concession was hardly a surprise - as I knew his teacups speech. Palast BTW had predicted this hours earlier on AAR morning show.
Who cares what kerry is doing with his pitiful life after throwing away our votes?
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #138
145. Who cares what Gore did in his pitiful life
After throwing away our votes? He had a far better chance of overturning the election than Kerry had. Ask Gore why he didn't recount the whole state instead of just 6 or so counties?

You people have been given facts here, all you have given in return is childish, kneejerk antics.

Kerry and Gore are both good men. It's not right to tear one apart in trying to build up the other. That is a Karl Rove swiftboat tactic. Let each man stand on his own merit and may the best man win.

I want very much for Kerry to be our president, but, if Gore wins the nomination, I will totally support him. I only hope that in the primary that we don't see swiftboating done within our own party, by the voters within our own party.

Stand by your man, but leave the swiftoating of democrats to the opposition. Will be enough work to fight their swiftboating, we don't need to have to fight our own swiftboating.

And, btw, Kerry didn't have to remain in the Senate. He could have resigned.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #145
196. Amen! You called it: Dems Swiftboating other Dems. Bad Karma.
This will hurt us all. We are supposed to be the righteous side. We need to maintain the high ground. It is the ONLY way we can take our country back.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #138
148. No, you're the person who needs a life. ALL YOU DO IS LURK
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 10:12 PM by _dynamicdems
AROUND trying to BASH Senator Kerry. Pathetically, I might add. Piss and moan and whine.

I'ts really VERY creepy. UNLESS you have an ulterior motive. Gee...I wonder what that could be?

I mean honestly, it doesn't matter how positive the thread is, you still have to come in with your poison.

There either is a motive or a pathology to your behavior.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
137. Here is a little bit of an anecdote for you
That shows how fact gathering, patience, maturity and determination can win out over screaming, childish tantrums. Because Gore was vocal in front of the cameras did not, necessarily, mean he was fighting a GOOD fight. Because Kerry is not putting on a public spectacle, does not mean that he is waging a bad fight.

You are all, of course, familiar with the committee that Kerry and McCain chaired together, the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs.

In the early 1990s, a photo of three men who were supposedly American captives made the cover of Newsweek. The Senate responded with a resolution by Sen. Robert Smith (R-N.H.) that created the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. (The picture was later proven to be of Russian farmers, not POWs.)

Kerry had the moral authority of someone who had served in Vietnam. He also had the benefit of a budding friendship with Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican who had been tortured during a 5 1/2-year imprisonment in North Vietnam.

McCain had once disdained Kerry and others who returned home to protest the Vietnam War — demonstrations he learned about by way of messages that fellow prisoners tapped on his cell wall.

But on a fact-finding mission after the first Gulf War, the two senators were trapped on a long, trans-Atlantic flight together. They began to share their war experiences. The relationship began to thaw.

Together, Kerry and McCain urged President George H.W. Bush to make the U.S. military the sole group responsible for investigating the hundreds of reports of "live sightings" of Westerners in Vietnam. Previously, family members had taken their appeals to other branches of government or to freelance POW hunters.

But the blunt-spoken McCain had no patience for the families' conspiracy theories; he thought it made no sense for the Vietnamese to continue holding Americans decades after the war.

And he became a lightning rod for the anger of bereft relatives who would not give up hope. From the back of the committee room, one activist shouted at McCain that he was the "Manchurian Candidate" — a brainwashed war hero who was betraying his onetime comrades.

Those barbs infuriated McCain. On such occasions, Kerry would lean over and lay a hand on his friend's arm.

"It was like, 'Just stay calm,' " McCain recalled. "He kept me from saying or doing something that probably would have been inappropriate. And I appreciated it, very much."

The pressure built on the committee staff as well. "I cried twice and threatened to quit twice," recalled Frances Zwenig, Kerry's chief of staff at the time.

Kerry said the committee would pursue every lead that it could, no matter how implausible it might seem.


The 1,223-page report, released in January 1993, concluded that "while the Committee has some evidence suggesting the possibility a POW may have survived to the present, and while some information remains yet to be investigated, there is, at this time, no compelling evidence that proves that any American remains alive in captivity in Southeast Asia."

The studied wording won approval even from Smith, although he later said he did not agree with all of its conclusions.

"It was John Kerry's work that got it done," McCain said.

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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. Ah, if McCain sez it, it must be true. The prospective VP, right?
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 10:03 PM by robbedvoter
This guy, right?
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #139
147. Totally lost on you, wasn't it?
Why am I not surprised?
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
144. Not one word was heard from Kerry after the election
for almost 2 months! That tells us, his supporters back then, a lot about where his priorities were.

Maybe he did have lawyers, etc. on the scene, but he never let anyone know about them.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. Yes,
One of his priotities during that time, was in Iraq, visiting with our troops, listening to their needs and problems. Learning all he could about what the situation was.

But, of course, he should have been here with us, in our comfy, quiet homes, holding our hands.

OMG, what a bunch of ignorant cry babies.

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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. You know what is saddest of all for me.
I have ocassion to post on a mixed democratic, republican board. On that board, we democrats pride ourselves on documented, factual, intelligent posting.

The neocons mostly post neocon talking points or from right wing web sites or Fox News, or kneejerk mewlings. We are able to refute most everything they post, with factual documents, yet they will try to ignore the facts. They have no interest in facts.

I see the neocon type posting, and fact ignoring on this board and it saddens me. I expect better from democrats.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. Are you calling me a neocon?
All I said was that I never heard any word about election challenges during the 2 months after the election.

I voted for the guy but never again! He would have been a good President but he ignored those who voted for him after the 2004 election.

BTW, I'm 53 years old and have never voted for a Repug since I was able to vote in 1972.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #157
164. Nope, absolutely not.
I am not calling anyone a neocon. I think I said neocon type posting or something of that nature, and not speaking of any particular poster.

The neocons like to attack and swiftboat their opponents instead of having their man stand on his own record and merits. Appears that is what some Gore supporters like to do.

I don't like to see that sort of behavior in the Democratic party. I think it demeans us and our party.

I like to think that democratic voters will try and absorb every fact that they can before judging another democrat.

Of course, a person cannot be expected to know everything there is to know, but, we can at least try and absorb facts when they are put in front of us. And, give the facts serious thought, react maturely, instead of an ignorant, kneejerk tantrum.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #157
166. He did no such thing! Never again?
Why would you enter a thread that offers evidence that refutes your "ignored those who voted for him" opinion, then continue repeating something that clearly isn't true?

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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. Did you get an email from him between election day and New Years...
in which he said he was challenging the election results? I didn't and I am on his email list. That was the time for him to speak out about it. Right now, is too little, too late.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #167
172. Here's part of one that I got on Nov. 19, 2004
Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.

I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

I ask you to join me in this cause.

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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. Challenging the admin but NOT the election.
He's a good Senator but he didn't challenge the election itself.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #174
178. OK, back to the OP,
and RFK Jr.'s text (same point as Conyers):

By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded.



That legal evidence has not been found, which is why there is still a call for an investigation. No legal evidence, no legal challenge!
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #174
180. Did you notice
that on Nov 19, 2004, he said, "Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted".

The outcome was not final, yet, on Nov 19. Votes were still being counted.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #167
173. Yes, it was about counting the votes. It's not too late to investigate,
otherwise RFK Jr. wouldn't be calling for one!
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #173
177. Re your quote.
"He's a good Senator but he didn't challenge the election itself."

And, on what grounds would you suggest he challenge? You know something the lawyers didn't know? Geez, why didn't you tell them?
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #177
202. Conyers challenged. Boxer challenged. 8 other
congresspeople challenged. On the ground that there was election fraud. simple. mr. kerry's abscence that day was notable.
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #202
215. Yes, it was notable and intentional
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 01:22 AM by Kerry fan
by all parties contesting the election.

I don't usually get involved in threads here because I don't type well. I am dictating to my daughter and she is doing the typing but, she's getting tired and impatient with what she is reading here, so this will be my last post. If you have any more questions or concerns, sometimes google can be a very good friend. Or, do you prefer to cling to your little whines?

This is where Kerry showed his true patriotism and genuine concern for this country and for the election process.

You see, numbnut, by this time, everyone knew there were no grounds to overturn the election. The election was contested for the purpose of getting election fraud on the record, to bring to the forefront that voters had been deprived of an honest election. Everyone agreed that it would have more effect if Kerry was not there to detract from the seriousness of the protest.

The republicans could not blame Kerry, they could not say it was done because Kerry was a "sore loser", as they did with Gore. They could not spend the next few years crying "sore loser". You do know how they like to do such things in order to distract us from the real issue, don't you? Kerry and the others decided that if Kerry were not there, if Kerry were not involved in the process, they would be forced to face the real issue.

You see, Kerry cared more about the election fraud than he cared about being a hero. Contesting the election was NOT done for the purpose of overturning the election. Contesting the election was done for the purpose of exposing the fraud.

I thought everyone knew that, at least the democrats who were paying attention. I thing Boxer even said it on the floor. Some of the others may have, also. And, I think it was said in a press conference.

Sometimes, when you think you know it all, you really don't know anything.

DON'T HAVE STRONG OPINIONS
ABOUT THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND


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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #173
179. It's been over a year and 1/2 since the election...
what good does an investigation do now for those who were on the ballot in 2004?

If it's only to keep future elections legal, that's OK, but it doesn't change the fact that the previous 2 presidential elections were stolen.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. Then give up and leave the fighting to those still willing! n/t
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 11:15 PM by ProSense
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #179
182. You are correct. We can't change history.
Neither could we wave a magic wand in 2000 or in 2004 and make everything right with the world.

Stuff happens and we have to learn to deal with it and work towards preventing it happening again.

This is a little extreme, but, if you are murdered, we can have an investigation and have your murder arrested. It won't bring you back, so, should we, instead, not have an investigation, just forget about your murderer, leave him free to murder another day?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #144
150. Not true! Kerry spoke on national TV
about two weeks after the election, and talked about the problems. It was the same time he sent the e-mail to supporters.
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #150
156. I was on his email list (still am) and never got anything
First time I heard a word from him was between Christmas and New Years.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #156
217. Nov 19, 2004
The New Hampshire recount had just started, the Ohio recount hadn't started yet, lawyers were engaged. Here's the email regarding counting the votes.

"Dear xxxxx,

I want to thank you personally for what you did in the election -- you rewrote the book on grassroots politics, taking control of campaigns away from big donors. No campaign will ever be the same.

You moved voters, helped hold George Bush accountable, and countered the attacks from big news organizations such as Fox, Sinclair Broadcasting, and conservative talk radio.

And your efforts count now more than ever. Despite the words of cooperation and moderate sounding promises, this administration is planning a right wing assault on values and ideals we hold most deeply. Healthy debate and diverse opinion are being eliminated from the State Department and CIA, and the cabinet is being remade to rubber stamp policies that will undermine Social Security, balloon the deficit, avoid real reforms in health care and education, weaken homeland security, and walk away from critical allies around the world.

Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted -- and they will be counted -- we will continue to challenge this administration. This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm.

I will fight for a national standard for federal elections that has both transparency and accountability in our voting system. It's unacceptable in the United States that people still don't have full confidence in the integrity of the voting process.

I ask you to join me in this cause...."
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #144
193. And he could have stood up on Jan 6 to contest the Ohio vote. He left town
He did not stand up. The most important senator was out of the country on January 6th instead of standing with us. The entire black caucus in the house protested in 2000, walked out. They stood up again in 2004. Kerry did not!
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Kerry fan Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #193
209. Boo Hoo Hoo!
And you have no idea why he did not, do you? And, you didn't even try to find out before making your ridiculous comment, did you. Just never occurred to you that there may have been a very good reason for that, did it?

This bumper sticker fits you Kerry bashers perfectly.

DON'T HAVE STRONG OPINIONS
ABOUT THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #209
214. People guessed that they may have threatened the lives of his children.
That was the only plausible reason anyone could come up with. That he was told to shut up or be killed. Can't think of any other valid reason. We have no way to know if serious threats were made.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #193
218. That isn't what happened at all
They specifically decided that contesting the electoral vote would NOT involve John Kerry and NOT be any effort to truly thwart the vote. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and Barbara Boxer stood up and that's it. Honestly, were YOU even in the country???
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
152. Another informative Kerry thread turned into a flamewar
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 10:17 PM by politicasista
Go figure. :-(
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #152
158. There are a couple of people who show up to Bash whenever they can find
a Kerry thread. It is frankly disgusting. I'd expect this kind of behavior in Freeperland.

I don't know their motivations but they sure start foaming at the mouth when you mention Kerry's name. And if you say something good, they come out of the woodworks like good little...well, you know.

This is an election year and people in a Democratic forum, instead of building unity, want to attack and blame and piss and moan. Real productive isn't it?

Why aren't they attacking republicans instead of jumping on every single thing John Kerry does and says?

If these truly are Democrats and not infiltrators from the other side, we truly are in trouble. If we can't put forth a united front now, with the stakes so high, when will we?

I'm so sick and tired of self-righteous, smug, obnoxious people who think they are the only ones who are right about everything. You know, Republicans?
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. Good question. I agree with your post 100% n/t
Edited on Sat Jun-03-06 10:48 PM by politicasista
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #158
195. It is not about what Kerry does and says. he is a fine man. But he blew it
for all of us after we worked our butts off, thousands, millions of us. He did not have the right to stand down. he PROMISED our votes would be counted this time. they were not.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #195
231. It takes time. There is an old saying that is very true, now perhaps,
more than ever: if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Have you forgotten the work Kerry himself did? You think YOU worked your butt off. Remember the man started his campaign with cancer surgery. He went out campaigning before he was supposed to according to his doctor. There was a time reported on during the campaign, when the senator collapsed on a folding table in an empty room because he'd been sick and the poor aide was really nervous...probably wondering if the senator had died on him. It was hard on everybody, but nobody worked harder than Senator Kerry. And Teresa Heinz Kerry's sister was also reportedly operated on for cancer during the campaign. Sadly, people who didn't know the situation, berated Mrs. Heinz Kerry because she was overheard saying somthing about how she just wantedto be able to go home (to be with her sister).

What I'm getting at is that sometimes people on the left are just as cruel and vicious and as willing to cast stones as the right. What this thread is showing me is how selfish people can be, how many chronic complainers there are and how people can be so blinded by their own dissapointments that they fail to realize how circular firing squads like this give the Republicans exactly what they need. They have NOTHING. NOTHING. They can only survive by destroying our purpose and what better way than to destroy our unity?

Now is the time to stand strong, stand together, and drive the bastards into the ground. It is NOT the time to emulate them or berate our Dems with Republican-generated talking points. I'd be willing to bet I could find at least ten talking points in this thread that I could go right now and find on any right-wing site. Something is inherently wrong with that.

No matter what people here believe (although everybody here knows everything, from what I'm reading) we are not privy to everything that goes on behind the scenes.

There are also deep resentments here that are (I believe) directed unfairly at Senator Kerry, but nonetheless, the resentments exist and I understand that. Feeding a resentment,however, is non-productive and resentment never responds to logic. So even if we did have more of the facts than we actually do have, would people reacting this pathologically even care? I don't think so.

It is my sincere and heartfelt belief that Senator Kerry has not given up on any of his promises. No, I don't know all the facts any more than any of you do. But I do know one thing: John Kerry always keeps his word. You can take that to the bank. Many of you people have only known of Senator Kerry a relatively short time, but I've followed his career nearly all my life and there are some things he's demonstrated without fail over the years. He's strong. He tells the truth. He's honest. He has compassion. He has more courage than any ten people I've ever met put together. And he keeps his word.

You might not always agree with him, but when he tells you he will do something, it gets done. The man is smart and he's capable and he's just as angry as any of you are.

We don't have the Senate. We don't have the House. We don't have the Supreme Court or the Judiciary. We don't even have state and local governments except in small pockets of blue states. There is infiltration at all levels of government. I've seen this for years and nobody would listen to me when I warned to never, ever vote for a Republican under any circumstances, not even for DOG CATCHER. And that's just part of it. We also do not have the media or the corporations who run our country. We haven't got a legislative pot to piss in. How the Eff were we supposed to contest a Presidential election? Not then. But maybe soon...we can get some satisfaction...IF we can stick together long enough to make it happen.

I live in NH and you might have heard of a little problem we had here with some phone jamming. Look how many years it took to get indictments in that case. YEARS! And we are still fighting that battle...and that is a small one compared to Ohio 2004, for example. One of the reasons it has been so difficult to get justice in the phone jamming case is because the local officials charged with bringing this to trial were BUSH supporters. They tied it up deliberately, but again, we have to prove that and with all the Republicans in there covering for each other, it has been like moving a mountain with a teaspoon.

We need to be aware of how they operate. We need to fight them on all levels. We need to stick together and realize it IS TRULY US AGAINST THEM. At this point we need to operate on the premise that there simply are no good Republicans. We need to put Democrats in office around the country. I don't care if it is Supervisor of the Checklist. The cronyism begins small and grows like a fungus.

If we can just stick it out a few more months and take back Congress, then we can have this election fraud debate again. I'll welcome it when we can do so from a point of power. And you know what, I'll bet Senator Kerry will too.



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kitkat65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
165. Woulda Coulda Shoulda
Honestly, the way people here expect Kerry to act like some kind of Atlas as if we have some kind of crystal ball into one man's conscience and his complete knowledge of events and motives.

We have absolutely no idea what went on behind the scenes or exactly what his motives were. It's armchair quarterbacking at best.

So, be angry at the man if you want, but history's just going to have to play this one out.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. Thanks for the common sense n/t
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #165
194. What is sad is that this kind of behavior makes us all look bad.
Imagine Frist or Santorum browsing this thread. Tell me that they wouldn't pass it around to all their friends gleefully? Oh and how about Ann Coulter and Rush and O'Lielly? Wouldn't they get the biggest kick out of this Kerry bashing and whine fest? They would freeking love it!

If anyone wants to know why we lose, all they have to do is follow the poison that spews forth from people (supposedly Democrats and liberals) when one of us has something good to say about Senator Kerry.

Armchair quarterbacking is what some people do because it is all they CAN do. Instead of wearing our disappoints and our laundry in public we should put up a united front. You are so right. People can be angry, that is their right, but they can be disciplined and channel that anger into something productive like working against Republicans and for Democrats.

Wouldn't that be a novel idea?
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #165
197. That is THE problem. History played it out. exactly. that is why we are
angry. We all came together for a common goal. Millions of people united against Bush. against the war. against everything that is happening now. We did our part. He did not. There is aboslutely no chance we will work for him again. We can work with him against the war. no problem. presidency, not even a tiny chance we will back him. NO CHANCE. We already did that. he gave away the presidency he had won.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #197
206. Speak for yourself! He fought harder than anyone else. Period! n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
226. Key words in the OP include "LEGAL evidence", much different
than real evidence, very little is admissible to impeach vote counts, but variations from state to state.

There was some activity by Kerry after the election. Under-reported. Could have been more. Some Kerry spokespeople were unhelpful.

The candidate is one of the LAST people who will ever make FULLFORCE allegations because they will pesonally be made to pay a very high price for that by other side. That makes him very different from you and me, so I don't attach the same significance to measured words and actions from a candidate as I do from citizens who are much more free.

Kerry, in my educated guess as a lawyer, also had legal advice suggesting that the election challenge would, if made, send the country toward an abyss of uncertainty because of Bush v Gore 2000, possibly invalidating the election instead of reversing it, thus keeping the incumbent in until a new election anyway.

BOttom line: I don't find Kerry's this or Kerry's that to be useful indication of anything without a lot of explanation and context. This is supported by Mark Crispin Miller's post about a private encounter with Kerry saying it was stolen, followed by a public disavowal by Kerry's staff that any such thing ever occurred. I don't think Mark Crispin Miller just made up an entire story - but Kerry staff says he handed over a book, and nothing else basically happened.

Too much pressure on Kerry. False issue, like reading tea leaves to understand someone forced partially silent.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #226
238. Thanks for the brass tacks - this place needs them.
Btw - heard that Kerry has learned enough about the fraud that he now sides with BANNING electronic voting machines state by state. I hope the article gets more to see the light.

Y'know Shark, your above post would make a good thread on its own - it really would do alot to move the issue forward and dampen some of the over-heated accusations that do nothing but distract from the real issue.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
242. Herre's what Kerry did on election night - which makes the OP moot
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #242
243. Here is what the OP states that you are ignoring!
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 08:58 AM by ProSense
From the Rolling Stone article:

By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded.


Conceding has nothing to do with investigating the election.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #242
244. And according to election fraud experts YOU are distracting from the real
issue in your attempts to blame Kerry for not HAVING a legal case to make.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #244
247. But blaming Kerry is SO much more fun.
:sarcasm:

(and I might add - HELPFUL TO THE RIGHT WING. (wake the f*ck up people...) )
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #244
250. Bingo.....
Great catch blm.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #244
251. The poster is not interested in focus, only in smearing Kerry. n/t
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #242
246. Flamebait. nt
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
252. I want an angry candidate.
Kerry is just happy go lucky.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #252
253. Which angry candidate is working to ban electronic voting machines?
Edited on Sun Jun-04-06 11:25 AM by blm
.And your assessment of Kerry is absurd. His entire record in public life proves your charge is false.
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txb Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #253
261. Kerry's "entire record in public life" was compromised
...by his gutless display following the election theft of 2004.

Kerry, and his numerous backers here on DU, aren't able to understand that a nation is not going to elect a candidate who's most memorable moment in the public arena is a moment of WEAKNESS.

sure Kerry blistered * in the debates.

BUT HE LOST TO BUSH. and *that* is what the American People remember.

and those of us who don't believe he DID lose, we feel COMPLETELY ABANDONED by the gutless Kerry and there are millions of us who will NEVER support him again, as we feel that he CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

so Kerry : branded as a LOSER by the American Public
cast off as a gutless wimp by millions of exhausted democratic activists

doesn't really sound like the makeup of a future presidential nominee to me.

thanks KERRY for your service, go ahead & keep doing good work in the senate....

but, Sir, your national political career is absolutely KAPUT.

whether any of you admit it or not.

the GOP would LOVE to go after Kerry again in a general election.

thank GOD that will never happen.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #261
262. Your opinion sucks! Welcome, and enjoy your stay! n/t
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txb Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #262
263. don't shoot the messenger. thx for the welcome! n/t
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. "the GOP would LOVE to go after Kerry again in a general election"
I'm afraid you're absolutely right. You're also correct in saying that they won't have the chance.

John Kerry is a good man, a fine senator, a war hero, but a terrible campaigner. Of all the candidates in the Democratic primaries, he would stand the greatest chance of losing the general election. Been there, done that. Nobody is going through it again.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #265
266. Afraid of the GOP are you? They will go after any Democrat!
:scared:


Whatever!
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #266
274. Afraid of them?What do they have to do with Kerry being a poor campaigner?
I'm more afraid of Kerry getting the nod again, than I am of the GOP, although I highly doubt I have much to fear about JK winning the primaries again.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #274
277. Then why be afraid? n/t
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txb Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #265
267. a good man, a fine senator, a war hero....
...and a FAILED Presidential candidate.

couldn't agree more with your post....

we have alot to thank Senator Kerry for, that is without argument.

but his days as 'the face of the democratic party' were over almost 2 years ago.

just his name/face/image bring nothing but 'losing' memories to the american public.

from the right, the left, and the middle of the road...they all agree:

Kerry will never be President.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #267
268. Wrong RW sage! Kerry is still one the top Democrats in the party. n/t
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txb Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #268
270. RW sage....u funny....

i spent election 2004 in FLORIDA (2800 miles from home) volunteering to try to make every vote count.

kerry didn't honor my service.

i think he's a quitter & a loser.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #270
272. Was that after Kerry conceded? n/t
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #268
273. It's not "RW sage". It's common sense.
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 08:14 AM by mtnsnake
Yes Kerry is still one of the top Democrats in the party. Just because many of us agree with you about that doesn't mean that we can't have our opinions that he doesn't have a chance to win the primaries or that we can't hope he doesn't win the Democratic nod.

The reason I hope he doesn't win the primaries isn't because I dislike him or because I have "RW sage"; it's because I have enough common sense to make my own deduction that he's unelectable. I base that on everything I saw in 2004. If I'm wrong and you're right, though, I'll join you in celebrating. If by some small chance Kerry gets the nod, I'll support him just as much as I did the first time around, and that was with all the energy I had. In the meantime, I hope someone else takes us all by storm.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #273
276. This is common sense?
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 09:45 AM by ProSense
Yes Kerry is still one of the top Democrats in the party. Just because many of us agree with you about that doesn't mean that we can't have our opinions ...


The poster I responded to said Kerry was through!

You're spinning yourself into confusion!
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
254. I think we can ALL agree that we need a voting system that is fair, where
recounts can be done in a timely manner, and where the counting PROCESS is transparent. I think even freepers would see the need for the process to be fair and be seen to be fair. I am doing my part by writing to my representatives (an e-mailing) periodically on this important issue. We need to get rid of diebold, and get a fair process before 2008 (and would like it before Nov. 2006, but it does not look like that is going to happen). Keep the letters and the pressure on your elected officials!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
275. back on top
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