Should DU be Nationalized?

Since we're talking about nationalization, and there is a lot of gung-ho attitude to nationalize things like the petroleum and energy industries, I thought I'd include DU in this anti-corporate attitude. Obviously, the government could run DU as well as Skinner, Elad and EarlG do, and redistribute the wealth. I'm serious (sort of) but listen to the reasons why DU is as exploitative a business model as any I have ever seen.

1: it is a for profit site, that people pay to use. Let's not forget that.
2: What does DU have that is worth money?
a: well, the hardware, and the coding is probably worth a bit.
b: the mailing list they have generated over 5 years is worth a lot.
c: the intellectual property.
3: the most valuable thing here is the intellectual property. No one comes to DU to read what Skinner, EarlG and Elad have to say (sorry guys, but you know what I mean) they come to read what the 86,000 other people have to say.
4: So the intellectual capital is contributed by us, in fact, we pay to contribute the intellectual property to DU, through either contributions, or ads. And then when we view our own writing, it is accompanied by ads. THEY ARE SELLING OUR OWN THOUGHTS BACK TO US!
5: DU depends on free labour (moderators) to survive.
6: DU is not a Co-op, we don't get a check at the end of the year if it makes money, the capitalist owners do.
7: the ownership does not share financial information with even donors, we have no idea how much money DU makes, do we? sure they plead poverty, but we really have no idea. Remember, the people at Enron said they were making money. You can't believe corporate officers about this sort of thing.

So, in summation, we have a company that uses free labour to solicit donations in order to continue getting free intellectual property, which it then sells back to the very same people who contributed it in the first place. This company won't release its books, or financial information, or salaries of ownership/staff.

Hell, even ExxonMobil pays royalties for the petroleum it extracts, we not only don't get paid for out property, WE PAY DU for the right to give it to them. So can someone please explain why nationalizing is ok for some industries, but not DU?

Every American should be required to join DU and to donate quarterly.

Posting privileges, however, should be restricted to those who have been members since a specified date -- the date I joined, for convenience.

Would you nationalize or privatize discussion on street corners?

(people CAN partake of it's wares gratis, and I don't hear contributors complaining about that either)

so take your counting books out of it

they are still selling you advertising. You wouldn't make a TV show for ABC for free, right? and allow them to sell the ads and keep the revenue? it's in essence what happens here. I find it amusing that pro-nationalizing as well as anti-capitalists have no problem hanging out on the most exploitative of systems.

no body is making money off my private discussions on street corners, that I know of.

I'm just trying to be consistent. If we need to nationalize industry, then DU should certainly be on the list, since it is even more exploitative than the rest of industry. At least GM and ExxonMobil pay their employees something!

how do you pull that off? oh right, you pay them to not show you the ads.

I don't look at them much....
(sometime curious if their subject matter echoes the thread I'm reading.. then I look)

I happen to be a donor, too, but I wouldn't have to be.

you take the intellectual property of others without paying? you don't think that the labours of the owners of this site are worth the payment (of looking at the ads?)

if anyone is that oblivious, they should highlight the rest of this line and the next. this post, and everything else I have posted on this thread is satire. If you didn't get it, I was talking about you. deal.

Get offa my azz!

if you're willing to pay money to get access to your own intellectual property, you don't have to watch the ads, since you're already paying. How does that change the business model of selling your own thoughts back to you?

They are your thoughts and 90,000 other members' thoughts. I think I am getting a great bargain, considering all the thoughts I get to read here every day.

every time I buy gas (since compared to the rest of the developed world, I am) yet people complain non-stop about oil companies. Whether or not you think you are getting a bargain, doesn't mean you really are, in the eyes of the nationalizers.

:kick: and :toast: Marie!

:shrug:

I still have to look at the ads, right? and certain sections (I think the groups?) aren't avaliable to non-donors. in order to register, I had to give them contact information, which they can sell.

I can watch ABC without paying a dime, but they're still making money off me, right? that's how they sell ads.

you still won't have to spend any ducats or contribute to the success of DU.

doesn't really solve the problem, right?

it's like saying HBO doesn't have ads, of course it doesn't, cause they get people to pony up upfront.

in , not to stop ads. The key word is "DONATE"

:evilgrin:

I would not be surprised.

spend this much time figuring out DU's assets and not spend as much time compairng how DU is not like the oil and energy industry? Whatever point you are making is lost really?

other like organizations on our economy or our thought?

On the last point - the "dereg of media" does provide a choke hold on thought that might require "nationalization" to make media fair again - but ir is easier to just force divestiture until ownership is one radio station plus one newspaper plus one TV - none of which are in the same market.

If the main page of DU had to say:
"This website has no connection to the democratic party whatsoever"

Then it would lose its natural monopoly.

At Bottom of Home page click "About DU"

and be taken to page that says:

Policy: We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.
=====================================================
other non-Democratic Party sites with Democrat in name:

Americans for Democratic Action http://adaction.org/
Democrats.com
Democratic Talk Radio.com
DCS http://www.dcspolitics.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=126
DemocracyInAction.org http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/www/services.jsp
========================================================
And of course official Democratic Party sites


Democratic National Party

College Democrats of America

UF College Democrats : and variations of this in other states

UCF College Democrats :and variations of this in other states

FSU College Democrats :and variations of this in other states


Alabama

Madison County Democrats

Julian L. McPhillips, Jr. - For U.S. Senate 2002



Alaska

Alaska Democratic Party



Arizona

Navajo County Democrats

Arizona State University Young Democrats



Arkansas



California

San Diego County Young Democrats

Democratic Club of Carlsbad-Oceanside

Democratic Club of the High Desert

Democrats of the Desert

Desert Stonewall Democrats

East Bay Democrats

Mesa Democratic Club

Santa Clara County Democratic Party

Peninsula Young Democrats

California 44th AD Committee



Colorado

Colorado Democratic Party

El Paso County Democrats (Colorado)

Fremont County Democratic Party (Colorado)



Connecticut

East Haven Democratic Town Committee



Delaware

Delaware Democratic Party



Florida

Florida Democratic Party

Beaches Democratic Club

Marion County Democratic Party

Democratic News

St. John's Democratic Executive Committee

Cuban American Democrats



Georgia

Richmond County (Georgia) Democratic Party

Cobb County Democratic Party

Houston County Democratic Party

Fulton County Democrats

Henry County Democrat Party

North Fulton County Democrats

Bulloch County Democratic Party



Hawaii

Democratic Party of Hawaii



Idaho

Idaho Democratic Party

Kootenai County Democrats



Illinois

Democratic Party of Illinois

Illinois Tenth Congressional District Democrats

Illinois Democrats Unity Rally

Illinois Democratic Women

Lisa Madigan - Democratic for IL Attorney General

Democratic Party of Milton Township

Democratic Party of Evanston

Pike County Progressive Democrats

Pat Quinn - Lt. Governor 2002



Indiana

Whitley County Democratic Party

Bartholomew Democrats



Iowa

Iowa Democratic Party

Clinton County Democrats

Woodbury County Democratic Party

Muscatine County Democrats

Linn County Democrats



Kansas

Kansas Democratic Party



Kentucky

The Bridge

Bluegrass Report



Louisiana

Louisiana Democratic Party



Maine

Democrats of Cumberland County



Maryland

Cecil County Democrat Club

Maryland Democratic Party

Battle Grove Democratic Club

United Democrats of Frederick County

Annapolis Democratic Central Committee



Massachusetts

MIT College Democrats

Rockport Democratic Town Committee

Wayland Democratic Town Committee



Michigan

Michigan Democratic Party

Orion Area Democratic Club

Oakland County Democratic Party

Inhgam County Democratic Party

Shiawassee County Democrats

Washtensaw County Democratic Party



Minnesota

Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party

Carver County DFL Party



Mississippi

Mississippi Democratic Party

Missouri

Jefferson Democrat Club

HouseOfHypocrites.com - Saying One Thing and Doing Another

Saline County Democratic Party

Cole County Democrats



Montana



Nebraska

Nebraska Democratic Party



Nevada

Nevada Democratic Party



New Hampshire



New Jersey

Sussex Democratic Club

Hunterdon County Democrats

Ocean County Democratic Party



New Mexico

Democratic Party of Dona Ana County

Otero County Democratic Party



New York

New York State Democratic Party

East Hampton Town Democratic Committee

The Southampton Town Democratic Committee

Perinton Democrats

McManus Midtown Democratic Association

Queens Young Democrats Club

Lambda Independent Democrats



North Carolina

Davidson County Democratic Party, North Carolina

Burke County Democrats

Forsyth County Democratic Party



North Dakota

North Dakota Democratic-NPL Party



Ohio

Ohio Democratic Party

Darke County Democrats

Licking County Democratic Club

Lucas county Democratic Party

Stark County Democratic Party

Wood County Democrats



Oklahoma

Cherokee.org Official Site based in Tahlequah Oklahoma

Oklahoma Democratic Party

McClain County Democratic Party



Oregon

Democratic Party of Oregon



Pennsylvania

Delaware County Democratic Party

York County Democratic Party

Chester County Democratic Party



Rhode Island

North Smithfield Democrats



South Carolina

South Carolina Democratic Party

Greenville County Democratic Party



South Dakota



Tennessee

Tennessee Democratic Party

North Middle Young Democrats

Tennessee Young Democrats

Davidson County Young Democrats

Loudon County Democratic Party

Obion County Democratic Party

Roane County’s Democratic Party

Roane County Young Democrats

Shelby Democratic Party

Sumner County Democratic Party

Williamson County Democrats

Anderson County Democratic Party

Cheatham County Democratic Party

Democratic Party of Knox County



Texas

Hays County Democratic Party

River Oaks Area Democratic Women

San Antonio Democratic Party

Harris County Democratic Party

Denton County Democratic Party

Galveston County Democratic Party

Walker County Democratic Club

Lubbock Democratic Party

Bastrop County Democratic Club

Galveston County Democrats

Lampasas County Democratic Party

Texas Senate District 16 Democrats



Utah

Utah Democratic Party

Vermont

Vermont Democratic Party



Virginia

Alexandria Democratic Committee

Prince William County Democratic Party

Virginia Beach Democratic Committee



Washington

Washington State Democrats

Lewis County Democrats

King County Democrats

Kitsap County Democratic Central Committee



West Virginia

West Virginia Democratic Party



Wisconsin

Wisconsin Democratic Party

Oconto County Democratic Party

Dane County Democrats

Portage County Democrats



Wyoming

Wyoming Democratic Party

Albany County Democrats

From the rules, though there is no affilication, there very much is:
"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

If the Democratic party did not want this done in its name, it would not be this
way. The connection to the Democrats is gifted by the democratic party, and there
is a natural monopoly for a coalition of interests to come together to discuss
off the record where it is deniable and not official.

The brand is a good one... the Democratic party would say something if it were being abused.

Then again Democrat may well be a "brand" that can be used by anyone?

I've been threatened with banning for walking in this subject, so i'll be very eggshell on this.

The brand "democraticunderground" is worth more than anything, as if it were free-speech.com,
then it wouldn't have the party connection, the poltiical opposition to neoconism as its framing.
This is theirs for being entrepreneurial, and we're all thankful in that sense. But democrat is
a word that belongs to a party. That party, if it were unhappy with democratic underground, could
force skinner to drop the apparent link, and the board would diminish. In that sense, there is
an exogenous brand that is gifted to du inc., one that IS nationalized.

But nationalized is maybe not the right word if we're looking at governance, rather the word
"liberty" in is classical meaning as "participation in government". You feel powerless to control
something in a benign dictatorship, as you have no liberty. Many people have done a patrick henry
and left the board for this. I do belive the best redress is through the democratic party, but
as they are a corporate party, selling "our own thoughts back to us" is 'oh hum'. So then
does the progressive caucus need to feel it has no political voice in how it is imaged. And here,
skinner has really been an outstanding benign emperor.

But does he answer to the democratic party? Does the pressive caucus support google inc?

If DU were a democracy, then it would have 1 voting share per member, and an editorial judicial system,
that censorship is done transparently. It would have elections.... but to do this, in law with
shares in a privately held company is difficult, as issuing more than so many shares changes the
companies tax complexity significantly, and money money starts to go to lawyers and fancy
governance gear... when in the end, we'd probably re-elect skinner as king... (but we might fire google,
this much i do sympathize, that the owners of the IPR would protect it and frame it carefully)

Nationalism of industry is often appropriate, starting with vitally important services such as transportation (which is mostly public) water and sewer services (which are mostly public) power (which is often in this country, public). Once those services are guaranteed to the citizens, a government should look to services on which national security relies, such as oil.

Only when that is done, do you look at other industries.

It's a crappy idea only because I don't want the FR owners getting a paycheck from me.

Let the US nationalize DU and then the paid staff get a guaranteed salary and don't have to beg on a regular basis for money. If the US government then tried to intervene to change the model , we can vote the bums out of office and replace them with people who will pledge to keep their hands off DU's content.

What's not to like?

the correction: Skinner posted a brief breakdown of DU's expenses last fund drive (skip the tongue-in-cheek expense breakdown and read the last few paragraphs).
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Skinner/98

...and personally, I see DU as providing a service. You generally pay people to provide you with a service. DU provides the meeting ground and facilitates the discussion. Someone else compared this to discussion on a street corner, but on a street corner you're not likely to run into 90,000 fellow progressives. DU provides this unique and valuable service, and in my opinion at least, it's a service worth paying for.

sure, they spend about $20,000/month (they claim) but what do they bring in?

And while I'm kinda suprised that no one has called bullshit on my entire post in the first place, I agree with you, DU provides a service, and people are willing to pay for tht service. But then ExxonMobil provides a product, and people are willing to pay for that product, so what's the difference, really? only scale and perceived neccesity. Personally, I spend more at DU a month than I do at gas stations. I just see people talk non-stop about nationalizing corporations, when they are customers of a corporation that is much more oblique than any public company in the US. We know how much that jackass from ExxonMobil made last year, cause it's public record, and it pisses us off, but we patronize another business that we have no idea how much the operators and owners really make. It's just interesting to me. that's all.

I've wondered about that. Usually, a fundraiser will show the amount of money raised, but DU's just shows the number of donations. So we really have no idea how much they raise. The list of expenditures is nice, but the "joke list" was actually much more comprehensive & detailed than the explanation of actual expenses. It'd be nice if they had a report somewhere of income/expenditures, as most non-profits do. I think of us more as shareholders - we've all invested in DU, & should receive information about the company in return. Actually, LLC filings are public records, so if you're really interested, you should be able to get a copy of the annual report from the state where DU was incorporated.

DU does provide a service - you can say whatever you want for free, but DU provides the medium for communication. Like, I can write anything for free, but I need to pay the Post Office to transmit my letter. Or pay a billboard to broadcast my message. Or pay DU to transmit my message to thousands of Internet users. The ultimate judge of value is what people are willing to pay for something, & DU offers a really valuable medium for communication. IMO.

it is a for profit company. Just like ExxonMobil, GE or FOX. The entire point of this entire little exercise in satire (which seems to have gone over most people's heads completely) was to point out that DU engages in an even more exploitative business model than any of those companies (one in which I, like you, am a willing participant) and people complain about corporate greed, and exploitation, while they merrily write checks to a company doing roughly the same thing, just on a much smaller scale. Obviously, such people aren't opposed on principle, so there's another motivation. There's a disconnect there, and I wanted to point it out.

thank you for being rational in your reply-

That's the reason why I'd like a little more information. DU wasn't organized as a non-profit, but as an LLC, just like many other big businesses. This is probably because political orgs. usually can't qualify for non-profit status. LLC's are basically like corporations, but have fewer restrictions & more flexibility in what they can do. It is a potentially exploitative business model - that's why these entities have to provide info to shareholders & the public. Except here, the only shareholders appear to be the admins., which creates a closed loop of information. They don't really have to tell us anything. Your post was satire, but you really made a lot of good points about the insidious nature of corporatism - it's everywhere, even where we'd least expect to see it.

why the fuck not?

no justice, no peace!

I don't think most DUers believe that all industry should be nationalized...only those which would serve the public much more effectively if they were publically held. I believe we should have national healthcare, for example, because it is logical to provide for the health and well-being of all our citizens from both a social and a fiscal standpoint; individuals and businesses would no longer have to pay for soaring insurance rates, and a healthier population would be better, more attentive workers who missed fewer days due to illness. Furthermore, the laws of supply and demand which govern most capitalist ventures don't apply as readily to the medical industry, because few people are going to put a price tag on their own lives or those of their loved ones. Thus, it makes more sense to put this industry under the control of the government. You can apply the same logic to institutions that are already nationalized, like public education. Nationalization is logical in these examples for its statistically provable social value.

But for DU, there would be no real social value in nationalization. The costs of participation you cite, either in advertizing or through donation, are extremely low--a donation of as little as ten dollars would be sufficient to use DU for a year, add-free. And even if we find that they exceed the benefits of gathering information, exchanging ideas and opinions, and organizing activism, we can easily leave and find other venues for such activities (as a few DUers have done). Supply and demand works. Thus the "discussion industry" of DU is run perfectly well in a private, capitalist framework, unlike other industries such as medicine, energy, and education, on which so many people rely.

I often wish I could listen in on their office conversation.

luckily, I have some photos of Romeo in a compromising position, so I have protection...

Without having to depend on Google or Yahoo.

I'm not saying it was you, but yeah, actually, it was.

In a fully socialist country, the major industries that are essential are generally under government ownership, such as water, electric, natural gas, gasoline, steel, auto manufacture, coal, telecommunications, aviation construction, public transport (rail, bus, air) and much more. Schools don't contract out their school meals, they hire people to run them for the school. Prisons are run by the government, and people in there are employed by the government.

Once upon a time the United Kingdom was a very socialised nation. The water was run by water authorities. Electricity was generated by the CEGB and distributed by electricity boards. Gas was sold by the gas board and they did everything about it. At one point the main shareholder of BP was the British government. Cars was manufactured by the nationalized British Leyland, using British Steel (again, government owned), which probably used coal from the National Coal Board. Telephones were provided courtesy of the Post Office (still in government hands, but not the telecom arm - that's now BT). British Aerospace once upon a time had significant government ownership. Most of Britains buses used to be owned by the National Bus Company. Once upon a time there was an entity known as British Rail. Oh, and you could fly BOAC or BEA - nowadays know better as British Airways.

Now most of that is a distant memory.

I made $348.22 last month alone from DU Corp. Isn't everyone?

Skinner definately said we weren't allowed to talk about that. you're ruining the grand deception.

that's it, you're out of the club. freeper! :hi:

Alas, I'm not holding my breath.

should be nationalized and the profits distributed to all Americans in the form of entitlements like health care, Social Security and universal child care and education. What is in the ground and in the national forests belongs to all of us and should be used, with environmental regulations of course, for our collective benefit. I don't think DU falls into this category.

Jeez...