Skepticism is good. But outright denial is not.

I've seen a small number of people here refusing to accept that Zarqawi is dead, because he has allegedly been reported dead in the past. This "analysis" is overly simplistic and is not based on a particularly close reading of the news.

These alleged "reports" of his death in the past were entirely different from the current one. Consider the links from this post, which claims that Zarqawi has been reported dead before. If you actually click the links to see what they say, you will see that every single one of them had a qualifier of some kind (and one of them said he's injured, not dead). I have put the qualifiers in bold:


I am aware that the Bush Administration does not have a shred of credibility on anything. But I think it is safe to say that Zarqawi is actually dead this time. Today's report is entirely different from the previous "reports." Skepticism is a virtue. But in this case there exists no evidence to suggest that the report of Zarqawi's demise is untrue.

Accept it. He's dead.

:shrug:

Who knows if he even existed with this bunch???

... and I hope Americans will not fall yet again into the false hope that this is going to make any difference in the situation in Iraq.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1380130

He was a small time thug blown up to mythic proportions to provide confirmation of the "outside jihadist" theory of the insurgency.

BTW: The Washington Post published just that a while back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1380886

The best one sentence description of Zaqawi I've heard yet.
:thumbsup:

:hi:

technically speaking. Plus, that's irrelevant to the dead or alive debate.

"Who was al-Zarqawi and why should we care he's dead" debate.

They are two distinct debates. I like to think most of us can hold more than one idea in our head at a time.
edit: in this particular case, you are distracting from the dead or alive debate. ;)

...and proud of it too... ;)

The most important part of my post was that I'd like to think that most of us can deal with more than one issue at a time.

even when disregarding election fraud.

Who thinks that a majority of Americans ever voted for bush?

I don't think the point is whether he is 'dead or alive'.

The point is this means nothing in the overall scheme of how the Iraq debacle will unfold, Tom Friedman's 'analysis' notwithstanding.

We had the same hoorah when Saddam and his sons were found/shot. Premature celebrations abounded.

be repeated sightings for decades to come...so yes, he's dead in our world. Dead as a doornail...their world, however, is a very different place....

two more grow into it's place.

Sid

indeed! And until the US realizes the manner and the extent to which we are resposible for terrorism, we will just keep breeding it!

I see no reason to disbelieve it. He's almost more valuable alive to the BushCo than dead. The more boogiemen the better. I just wonder which other evildoer will step into the enemy #2 role. And we should keep asking.. "WHERE IS OSAMA?"

He was a very disturbed and intelligent guy and I am happy he is gone. Sad that apparently a woman and child were killed along with him, but that's just "collateral damage", right? How he eluded 150,000 US troops for 3+ years is pretty amazing. But then Iraq has a population somewhere near 26 million.

Even Tim Russert mentioned on the Today Show this morning that just like Saddam's capture, this may give Bush a tiny blip in the polls, but nothing more than that unless there is real progress in quelling the violence and getting an effective government that the people respect. I won't be holding my breath.

Exactly what I've been thinking ever since I heard the news of his death.

What people should really be wondering isn't whether or not Zarqawi is dead or alive, but whether Bush is really as happy about his death as most people think he is.

With Zarqawi "in power", the terrorists in Iraq were taking aim mostly on Iraqi citizens, police, etc....along with whatever US troops they could add to their list. With him out of power, the terrorists might concentrate their efforts more toward coalition troops, period. Zarqawi's death is a big relief to the Iraqi people for sure because it should mean less deaths for them, but will it mean less deaths to our troops? It could mean the opposite, and our boys and girls in Iraq better be on their toes more than ever in the near future if a new insurgent effort is organized with them as the only focus.

And I will take issue with those who say that he is just a boogyman who does not exist. I accept that he is real and he exists.

But the little boy has cried wolf just one too many times, so today I'm far more concerned about the baseball steriods scandal which claimed another player (Grimsley of Arizona).

the nature of his assasination, whether zarqawi was truly that important or pumped up intentionally, or even whether this body was zarqawi or the actor chosen to portray him. I've got to say, for a man with an artificial leg, he jumped in and out of foxholes quite agile-like in that recently released video.

I've no doubt this fellow is dead, and is the same fellow in the video. Does he have an artificial leg, though? His head seems in good shape, so I'm guessing the leg survived?

he probably is dead. What he isn't is 'the Iraqi insurgency' or 'the tide turning event'. What we should be doing is noting that it is vanishingly unlikely that this event will alter the course of the war, as Dear Leader just put that stake in the ground, thus opening himself up, once again, for another Mission Not Accomplished blunder.

I just wonder what the real story is and when did he die.

That's what I too would like to know.

They're just skeptical that he was actually killed last night. This just stinks of typical BushCo tactics...when you get seriously bad news overtaking everything else, in the old day, Tom Ridge would be ordered to raise the terror alert. But there's more serious shit going on now, and we have to boost the fake poll numbers incrementally before Novemeber.

...when seriously bad news wasn't overtaking everything else, and I'll show you a day full of accusations that BushCo has orchestrated whatever positive thing has happened in order to distract from the onslaught of bad news.

I see people downplaying the significance is all.

Inquiring minds want to know. How many corners do we have to turn before we admit we're just going in circles?

Nice job shining a light on the mythological misrepresentation of the old stories.

Can we make this a sticky in the Sept 11 forum? ;)

did the body have a leg missing?

I think the point is that the misadministration is the source or conduit for every bit of what passes for information, starting with the attribution of Zarqawi as the designated instigator of terrorist activities in Iraq. I'd like independent confirmation of some of this.

Don't forget that we know the names of the 9/11 hijackers because the government told them to us, having found intact passports in the burning rubble, yadda yadda. And there are persistent stories that some number of those people (at least two) are still alive. Maybe their identities were stolen by the real perps, maybe we never knew who some of the real perps were and we blamed likely targets, at this point we can never reconstruct anything from hard evidence...

Not to be all :tinfoilhat: but there isn't a real compelling reason to trust anything "they" say.

zarqawi is one man in an organization.

he alone is not responsible for all the bombings across iraq -- lot's of people are.

bushco wants to crow long and loud over the death of zarqawi -- well the iraqis had a perfect response -- they blew up 19.

Can't you give the military a tiny bit of credit for getting this leader?

We look like we enjoy the violence when we can't at least celebrate the small victories along the way. Who cares what Bushco says? It's not going to change the facts on the ground in Iraq going forward.

what's zarqawi compared to that?

or the thousands killed as innocent bystanders for an illegal invasion.

zarqawi was neither here nor there for me.

a nothing.

Don't you understand that this isn't the end to the violence, just the end of one leaders life?

Downplay it if it makes you feel better, but it's irrelevant - people are going to think whatever they want. Are you feeling defensive today? Why share?

i think killing zarqawi is nothing.

nothing.

look how long it took to get just this one guy.

and then it took two 500lb bombs.

talk about an overstatement.

if anything this is a celebration of u.s. incompetence from top to -- oh yes -- the very bottom -- boots on the ground bottom.

and btw herding cats is a waste of your time.

I was mostly taken back by your ghoulish remark that I quoted in the my subject line.

"perfect response" - to kill 19 people?

You seem to be almost happy that the killing will continue even after Zarqawi is gone.

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but you chose to use that heavy rhetoric to make a brutal point. That is why my instinct was to say "lighten up".

To be honest with you - I had forgotten who Zarqawi was until he was killed today - that's how significant I think this event today was - but I can sit back and allow the RW retards to crow for a day without feeling like I have to lash out at them for their childish little victory party. It's just one day in a LONG LONG conflict - and a pretty meaningless one in the big picture - we totally agree on that. I know as well as you do what's going to happen going forward, but I'm NOT relishing the killing just to make Bushco look bad. :(

it's an illegal war and we shouldn't be there.


what's ghoulish is that 19 people died in such a brutal fashion -- but the u.s. has passed the deaths of innocent iraqis off as triffles.

I obviously agree with you about the awful and hypocritical nature of this illegal war. Just let them have their little "pretend" victory party - they have so little "good" news. We all know that war is evil and that these fucking cocksuckers really DO enjoy killing the brown skin people with the wrong religion :eyes:

Wouldn't 20 had been better? Wouldn't that make you cheer louder?

You, dude, are sick!

you find no meaning in the fact that we kill zarqawi{with 2 500lb bombs, how much did those cost, btw?} and with out missing a beat the resistance kills 19 and 3 troops to boot?

life has meaning in my universe.

i'm guessing it's not your intention to come off as a cheerleader for an illegal war -- the continuing murder of innocent people -- the killing of our troop.

if that's the case -- we are on the same page.

"But in this case there exists no evidence to suggest that the report of Zarqawi's demise is untrue."

Ummm, a Government that continually LIES to us. Ummm, a Media that continually LIES to us.

I'm am not saying Zarqawi is Alive, but I am certainly not going to blindly believe these liars because they say he's dead and they present a picture. Especially NOT on the first day of reporting. Wait a few day's see what happens next, something alway's happens next.

Thanks, your rational comments are doing us all very good.

He was fired some time in March, according to this.
It makes the insurgency sound a lot more organized than what we hear on MSM.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1381460

this event has more to do with the internal struggle within the insurgency/Al Qaeda structure than anything else. That is what we should be focusing on.

While the Bush Administration might portray this as a death blow to terrorists, it in fact may be an indicator of a more organized and strengthening organization.

Somebody gave him up, who and why?

:shrug:

Glad to see you're still on top of things.

Yeah, I've noticed a lot of AK'ers in droves too.
Just a thought, remember the passport found intact at ground zero?
Remember Saddam being found in that hole? Remember "Smoke 'em out"?
Now, we've got a picture. And to further prove the authenticity of said "proof" we see a picture of Zarqawi with his eyes.......drum roll.....open.
And of course theres always the fact that our government is known for it's honesty during election time. As well as our media and their reputation for full disclosure of truth and bipartisanship.

scratches in his face?

I can accept the fact that he is dead, but you'd think after having two 500 pound bombs dropped on him, he'd be in thousands of tiny pieces.

:shrug:

But I guess thats over your head.

you must be a real fucking pleasure to be around.

and doubt anything the press, the White House, or you are saying.

As you said: "But I guess thats over your head" ...and apparently, what you say is the unquestionable truth.


Just in case you didn't completely read my post: I have no doubt that he is dead.

... he could not be in a million pieces after two bombs "landed on him".

I explained how that would be possible, and in fact, its probable.

But feel free to ignore physics, and believe that bombs dropped from planes can only kill people if they land directly on their head rather than landing a few rooms away and killing them via shock and shrapnel.

Let me guess ... looking at some of your other post, definitely yes.

People must love being around you.

Its pretty obvious that a bomb can kill someone and not utterly decimate their body.
Hell, it might not even marr or disfigure the body if they die from shock or being crushed beneath a collapsing wall.

I feel a very primal sense of justice that we have killed the guy who is responsible for the deaths of many of my friends and fellow warfighters.

And the insurgents feel the exact same why every time they waste your friends and fellow warfighters.

What a glorious victory!

gone.

I just don't accept the relevance that is being portrayed by it.

He was a figurehead, nothing more. There are still thousands, if not millions of more "turrists" that have been created by our insane policies in the middle east...and many more to come I'm sure.

Thanks to shrub and co.

heads-up. I had no idea there would be so many threads in denial, but I'm not unduly surprised by it, given the B* Regime's level of credibility!

:kick: & R!

my husband called me to let me know he was dead. I was elated. I logged on to find a lot of weirdness.

I think it's a safe bet, that like Saddam's capture, this will not to any degree change a thing when it comes to the ongoing strife in Iraq, the continuing slide in Afghanistan, or the rising hostilities with Iran.

Bush and the Fox News crowd will beat their chests for a while over this, use it as some kind of proof that their 'war on terror' is working out swell, and use it to smear the rest of us for not getting on board with the program, all because we temper the news of his death with a cautious realism about its long term effects. And after all, because we lefties just *love* the terrorists and insurgents. :eyes:

Meanwhile, the cynics among us know that Zarqawi's death will have a net effect of zero in the long run. Both Bush and Al-Qaeda will use it as a propaganda tool for their own ends. Bush to justify the continuing occupation in Iraq, and Al-Qaeda to make him a martyr for recruitment.

Bushco. I think they were saving the guy for a rainy day.

The GWOT seems conducted primarily to provide a series of soundbites and photo-ops. Sometimes the story behind the headlines is true but most times it isn't and most people never find out because by then the newscycle has moved on.

And in what way am I affected?

Now back to matters at hand, where's Osama Bin Laden?

I think there is enough evidence that we can safely conclude that the person in question is dead.

It seems more interesting to consider three other questions:

1- Who was he?

2- Why did his life take the path it did?

3- What will be the reaction/consequences of his death?

I do not believe that the people we know as the "Bush administration" have the moral capacity to tell the truth. Hence I would never suggest that anyone accept any information from them on face value. However, when one takes this stance, it implies responsibility to make an honest search for answers to important questions, such as the three listed above.

I think that al-Zarqawi was likely a leader of some sort in the cultural/religious war taking place between the west and the Islamic world in the Middle East. I think that hatred distorted whatever good potential he may once have had. I am reminded of Carl Jung's writing about the mutiliation of the human potential by dark forces in his essay "Christ, A Symbol of the Self." I'm not sure what the results of this will be. My hope, of course, is that it can somehow lead to a decrease of the hatred that is resulting in the suffering and deaths of countless people in Iraq, and which threatens to spread throughout the Middle East. Yet I fear that the true result will be a continuation of what Jung spoke of in Lecture Five in his book "Analytical Psychology: It's Theory and Practice," when he discussed his insights on the population of Germany in the months leading up to WW1.

Strange days, indeed.

to consider, as all of our jubilation at the death of terrorists, only seems to increase their population. We are in fact creating terrorism, and have been for years. Your remarks concerning al-Zarqawi's personal history and motivations are as important to understand os OBL's. Jung's observations on the polarities and dualities of unenlightened human existence, are all too appropriate!

"As one of the hydra's heads is cut off...
two more grow into it's place."

BTW, Is the essay "Christ, A Symbol of the Self" in his book Analytical Psychology? I'd like to read it....

is that, if indeed this person was the leader of a large network, it will splinter and create a dozen smaller groups. Each will take a course that likely will include hatred and violence.

The first essay I noted is found in Jung's "Selected Writings," published in 1997 for the Book-of-the-Month Club. It includes 10 wonderful selections, mostly taken from his later works.

The second book was published by Vintage Books in 1968. I would strongly recommend both books. I was lucky enough to find each of them in used book stores in Oneonta, NY, more than 20 years apart.

I happen to think the guy is dead, myself- not that it matters.

Now we will have a dozen Zarqawi's rising up for revenge and we won't know who they are or where they are. Too bad they couldn't have taken him into custody. There was information to be gotten from him, not to mention he would have made a dandy hostage to barter with.

:evilgrin:

I guess it must be true.

"I am aware that the Bush Administration does not have a shred of credibility on anything"

If he isn't dead, he will make another tape and these buffoons would look like idiots.

The President of the United States almost never makes this kind of mistake.

At least we're not talking about that satAnnic Coultist anymore - TG for small favors :D

Just like that drunk- Patrick Kennedy.

:eyes:

What's the REAL story behind the death?

They had to kill him this time because of Bush's low polling numbers (and Haditha). I can only imagine what will have to take place in this country for Bush and his admin. to finally capture (or kill) Bin Laden. :scared:

I do know that any fact with regard to al Zarqawi that is present in the news media should be viewed with extreme skepticism. It has been shown conclusively in my opinion that much of the reportage about al Zarqawi has been distorted or manufactured as a part of psychological operations conducted by the U.S. "intelligence community" and the U.S. military.

While I do not doubt that he is dead, I will be ever skeptical of any claims made by the U.S. government and will always look for the motives behind those claims.

Shock waves from bombs landing 100' away will do the jobs nicely never mind the shrapnel. I don't believe we had him in a freezer just waiting for the right moment to hit the defrost button. We finally got intel that wasn't manufactured or manipulated. Although the story is sketchy I am inclined to believe the story I heard on CNN this am. Our special ops guys were following Zarqoui's spiritual leader for weeks. The man was followed to a safe house where we knew there were high value targets inside. We didn't know Zarqoui was in there until it was over. We finally got lucky.

does not replace the lack of credibility in the Iraqi government our government or the media. Not being able to prove that Santa Claus does not exist does not make Santa real. Reality is based on proof, not opinion. To say some news services have proof needs a lot of corroboration these days. Then again, the real question is the devil in the details that in the past were phonied up to disgrace Hussein.

The terrible reality is that neither skeptics nor believers can confirm anything through the Bush administration or its adjuncts. That is why they had to physically show the bodies of Hussein's sons and Hussein himself. The problem they are trying to bluff out is that their latest trophy is mashed DNA, a myth in the minds of many Iraqis, not as publicly known or demonstrable as those people anyway and of dubious real importance in the violence and underground leadership. It must be tempting, if they can put down the hard earned skepticism born of a vast amount of lying and secrecy and one track spin, to try a variation of this story to bury Bin Laden- and then discredit any future tapes they wisely never verified clearly in the past.

Junior looks like he was up late arguing about the limits he doesn't understand imposed upon his demolished credibility. Must have been depressing to hold himself back. The very discussions might have revealed more to Junior of the real state of Iraqi affairs than his bubble delusions insist on. You might believe a major terrorist is dead. Bush has to believe it doesn't make much of a difference now. But if so, he's lying again to try to convince everyone else that it does. Blair sounded more ebullient and sincere.

I can substantiate my opinion about how Bush* lied about certain things through evidence, rather than making it look like a product of my dogma.

and I trust that isn't the case.

I never once stated the US made the previous claims of al-Zarqawi's death. I posted links using "may be" (dead) and "seriously injured" (possibly dead). I posted links for people tp actually read and requested for any other links to the various other articles claiming Zarqawi had died because I was curious as to how many other such stories existed...for my own personal edification...as I stated in the OP. I was curious.

Not because I thought today's report was false...but because I was curious. Nothing more.

Just making my position clear.

I know that you were not trying to mislead, and I'm sorry if it looks like I was suggesting it.

I grabbed the links from your post because it looked like a few other people here were jumping to conclusions without reading your post carefully.

You said it yourself.

the Bush Administration does not have a shred of credibility on anything.

They told us there were WMD. They told us there was NO TORTURE happening at Abu. They told us that our MISSION WAS ACCOMPLISHED three years ago. They told us they support our military. They told us that the people in Haditha were killed by IED's. Someone mentioned Pat Tillman in a previous post. The list goes on and on. When you say Accept it. He's dead you are asking people to take this incredibly corrupt and immoral administrations word over critical thinking and reasoning. Pat Tillman's family didn't just "accept it". It is because of their ability to reason and critically think that we ALL know the truth about what happened to Pat. They honored their son by seeking TRUTH. They didn't buy into the "move along...nothing to see here" BS. I applaud them for that. I wonder how many people considered them to be in "denial"?

I refuse to take ANYTHING these treasonous, rat bastards say at face value. They've certainly managed to take all other news off the table, haven't they? How many times are they going to show the pile of rubble on TV? Why are there children climbing all over a site that should be secured by the US Military? Two 500 pound bombs should produce blood and carnage, yes? It looks like a pile of rubble. At least that is what I am seeing. How can anyone miss it? They are running it over and over and over and over and over and over again. Hell, the world could be exploding one continent at a time. How would WE know? The only news story that is being shoved down our throats is this one. It all comes in a very neat package. The only thing that is missing is the bow.

Just my 2 cents...

as wondering how it was actually pulled off! We can only hope that it was our allies and no one associated with * or Rummy that have put one terrorist to rest. One out of an underground group for whose numbers we are only guessing at is unlikely to do much more than re-arrange the forces to put another in his place, and at the same time, it will (hopefully) only boost the chimp's status a few points and then only on a temporary basis. But, if like Hussein, Zarqawi was kept on ice until Rove et al needed a major distraction, then we will have been duped yet again.

But not so open that your brains fall out.

The so-called 'defense of marriage' amendment to the Constitution fails in the Senate. What better way to energize the base than to kill off an Al-Qiaida? A leader?! This starts a new wave of violence throughout Iraq and the area around. Now! Just look at all this killing of Americans! Why, Pat Robertson says it's because of the gays!!! And so the vicious circle continues, blaming whoever is convenient at the moment for all the ills of a mad-administration!

The myth died today. As for the man ...

WaPo - Zarqawi is a US Military PSYOP: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040900890.html

The NY Times Played Along: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002314713

Zarqawi - Bush's Man For All Seasons: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FJ15Ak02.html

UPI (Moonie Times) - How the US Created the Zarqawi Myth: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:2QuiYcfLZV0J:www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php%3FStoryID%3D20051110-014753-2561r+Claim:+U.S.+Created+al-Zarqawi+Myth&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

CIA Agent Says US Allowed Zarqawi to Escape: http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/us-allowed-zarqawi-to-escape/2006/04/30/1146335608444.html

How the US fuelled myth of Zarqawi the mastermind: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/04/wirq04.xml

Reputed Terrorist Al-Zarqawi Still Shrouded in U.S.-Fed Myth, Mystery: http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1546

Zarqawi - Everywhere & Nowhere: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GG07Ak02.html

A collection of pix of our happily finally actually dead parrot: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2327738&mesg_id=2328504

A collection of previous links saying Zarqawi was dead, seriously injured or captured: http://www.conjur.com/blog/2005/11/20/zarqawis-dead-again-3rd-times-a-charm-eh

From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/04/10/GR2006041000097.html



Just saying ...

You know, like the Domino Theory.