"Current TV" just ran a piece on vegan parents.

How many other channels could one say that about?

http://www.current.tv/pods/parent/PD03697

Watching now. :)

I'm an evil meat eating gun toting man.

I like meat too much to give it up. Also, I would not make my child eat meat, why do they want to keep their children from it. If my son or daughter was a vegan, I would fully support their descision, and would help them out. What if these kids decide to eat meat?

He doesn't know all the gory details about factory farms and such, but he knows that flesh foods come from animals and that it hurts them. He'll ask for something and want it very badly and then walk away from it without a further backward glance when I explain that it has dairy in it. Luckily it's almost always easy to find or make a healthier vegan alternative.

When he's off on his own I can only hope that he'll continue to act on the ethical principles he's been raised with, but should he choose not to, that's his own choice once he's out on his own and spending his own money. I'd never let him think that that was a decision I condoned though. However while I'm responsible for him and my money feeds him, a vegan diet is not negotiable. Ours is a family that believes in non-violence and that extends to our diet as well as our politics (the two are deeply interconnected for me and most of the vegans I know.)

animals. In-family we call them by their animal names, not their meat names (none of that nasty cooperate-with-the-invaders-and-occupiers Norman French influence in this family :-)

A week ago we went to go picking blueberries, and made a wrong turn before we got to the blueberry place. Cows all over the place.

"Look! Cows!" I told the toddler. He looked, he mooed, and he said "yummy!"

Not something I'd ever say. I don't much like beef. Fish and foul ... sure. Yummy.

The kid takes after his mother in food preferences.

She ate some bacon and said, "yummy piggy OINK OINK"

It bothers *me* when they say it because I was a vegetarian for a number of years, and still easily would be except for the fact that my blood sugar gets screwed up too easily.

My kids know exactly where meat comes from and it doesn't freak them out at all. Oddly enough, it doesn't coincide with any cruelty toward animals - they think animals are cute and treat them very well.

even insects. We were at the park and she saw an ant and was watching it, and this little boy walked over and stepped on it. She got quite upset and gave that boy a talking to.

But she knows where meat comes from. If we go by a dairy farm she seems quite understanding of the fact that steak comes from cattle.

If she saw the KILLING do you think she would still eat steak? Do you yourself have the fortitude and honesty to watch www.meetyourmeat.com ? Did you/do you know the hellishly unnatural conditions animals are farmed in for your dining pleasure?

Could you watch the birth and life of a baby calf as it grows, watch it play on a green pasture under a clear sky with that clear clean air rolling over the hills while it played with the other calves......... and then hold a captive bolt gun to it's head, watch it twitch and bleed to death, skin it and dismember it sometimes while it still lives, dispose of the entrails, slice part of it's carcass into pieces and then shake on some A-1 and call it supper?

Do you think your daughter understands that is exactly what is happening? Nah. Prob'ly not. Of course not.

and I saw it when I was a kid. I live in a farming and hunting area.

As an adult I was given a tour of a meat packing plant. I've never been a vegetarian.

- when she was 4 yrs old and caught her first fish. She was so proud that she rode home with it in her lap. She insisted on watching my husband gut and clean it and then she stood on a stool next to me as I cooked it. She ate the entire fish all by herself standing at the counter. Wouldn't share a bite.

I've also watched her get up and eat cold venison first thing in the morning for breakfast. She knew it was "Bambi" from the beginning.

She's kind to animals and has a natural way with them. Ironically, she works in a vet's office. So far she's not eaten any of the patients!

most certainly does coincide with cruelty given the state of factory farming. Even if you buy "free range organic" flesh, which is often pure bullshit in itself you must then believe that depriving living things of a higher order of a natural existence and life does not constitute cruelty.

Why not just stun-gun senior citizens or the retarded when they are no longer useful or wanted by anyone? We could can them at the hormel factory, make them into nice meat snacks and send them to impoverished countries as food aid. Nifty.

Animals are different some say. Humans are animals. You are made of meat, 'juices', gristle and bone.

Besides, animals are not like us, they don't have feelings, some say.






For further reading on animals and emotion from regular people: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/sci/tech/4360947.stm

I interpreted her post to mean that her children don't behave cruelly to animals.

The post did not say that eating meat wasn't an act of cruelty.

:hi:

Your mileage may vary.

If I am missing something obvious that I've not addressed please give me a trail of breadcrumbs, a flashing neon sign or a note from the IRS.

TIA.B-)

I am well aware of all the issues involved in eating meat. I am also well aware of how factory farmed animals are treated. I've watched PETA videos and my husband used to be a member of PETA. I was a strict vegetarian for 8 years. I know animals have emotions. I write for an organic food magazine and I know all about how many meat providers and dairies claim to be organic and their practices are anything but organic, free-range, etc.

Some of us are able to reconcile the truth about meat with eating it. After all, for thousands of years, and even in the relatively recent past, people raised and killed their own animals. While maybe most people in present times are disconnected from what meat really is and think that it just magically arrives in styrofoam packages at Wal-Mart, that is still a recent situation. Prior to that most people were very well aware of where their meat from, and were often responsible for processing it themselves, and still chose to eat it.

I don't think that if everyone just had more education, that they would all choose to go vegan. History proves otherwise.

I'm well aware of the cruelty of factory farming, well aware that few slaughtering methods are painless, well aware of the health risks associated with eating ruminants that have been fed ruminants etc etc etc

However the only thing that's remotely likely to see me go veg is the exploitation of HUMAN meat workers, it's the only thing that gives me guilt pangs when chowing down on flesh. I've just always placed concern over people above that of concern over animals

see Rethugs get stun gunned when they do something that ruins our country even more -again.

Hey, did ya see my sig line?

They're pretty open people.

Redstone

Parents try to raise their children according to their own moral code. If you're a Lutheran, you raise your children to be Lutherans. If you are anti-abortion or anti death penalty, you raise your children to believe abortion or the death penalty is wrong.

If you are vegan for moral reasons (and most vegans I know are), you raise your children vegan. If you're doing it for health reasons, you probably want your kids to have the same health background.

With the exception of breast milk, there is not a single animal product that a human needs to thrive, so there's no "keeping your children from-" deprivation here.

Most of the vegetarian parents I know realize they can't forbid their children from ever eating meat, but they don't give it to their kids, say "no" if asked, and try the best they can and accept that sometimes, kids take different moral paths from their parents.

Redstone

"With the exception of breast milk, there is not a single animal product that a human needs to thrive"

our brains evolved because of our consumption of long chain fatty acids from animal products.

talk with modern day hygenists and fruitarians who have done it for a number of years and they will tell you that animal products are essential to human health. ghandi figured this out, and so did the ancient Essenes.

ethically, vegans think they are superior to non-vegans, but do you know that in 2025 most of the rain forest will be gone because of agriculture? how many species have died as a result?

the simple fact is that because you exist, other organisms have to die.

where to start.

"our brains evolved because of our consumption of long chain fatty acids from animal products" That's actually a matter of some debate within the anthropological community and considered by many to be a somewhat outdated idea. The current thought is that early man ate very little meat, scavenged most of what he did get and exolved a larger brain to facilitate group responses to predation.

"talk with modern day hygenists and fruitarians who have done it for a number of years and they will tell you that animal products are essential to human health. ghandi figured this out, and so did the ancient Essenes." There's a great deal of evidence that the healthiest way to go is a varied vegan diet (check out The China Study for a very detailed look at the effect of a vegan diet on human health compared to an omniverous one.) Comparing the widely varied diets of modern ethical vegans with those of religiously-motivated escetics isn't really valid, nor is comparing the diet of somebody who eats a diet rich in vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts, legumes and other plant foods with those of frugivores. Simple observation reveals that long-term vegans live healthy lives.

"ethically, vegans think they are superior to non-vegans, but do you know that in 2025 most of the rain forest will be gone because of agriculture? how many species have died as a result?" One of the main reasons that the rain forest is being lost is cattle consumption- forests are burnt away for grazing land or soybean production. There are other causes, such as the production of sugar cane for brazil's ethanol industry, but flesh consumption is a major cause of deforestation. For that matter, it takes a 8 lbs of feed and 2,500 gallons of water to create a pound of beef, so it's much more efficient to use land to grow plant-based food for direct human consumption whenever possible.

:hi:

When kids are very small parents decide. When kids get old enough to ask questions then there can be debate --

I have a friend who served meat to her whole family until her daughter reached 6 and started asking questions about where meat came from and did not like the answers. So her daughter became vegetarian and was followed by the 5 year old girl in the family. My friend's son is allergic to soy, however, so she serves him meat.

I don't think there is one right answer for everyone.

I do think that if one is going to eat meat it is far, far better to buy meat from animals raised and slaughtered on local, small farms, who have been fed organic food than to buy from the factory farms. My uncle used to be a bigwig at Farmland - I toured the meat packing facility. :puke:

I am vegetarian now. ;-)

until they came to an age where they could consent to the choice? Isn't it wrong to involve someone with something they may very well consider to be extremely immoral later in their life?

Parents need to make decisions for little kids.

Upton Sinclair, and make up his own mind. Some things have changed at the slaughterhouse, but some are still the same as over 100 years ago.

grows up to vote Republican?

:evilgrin:

We instill the values in our children that we hold dear. It's up to our children - as adults - to make their own choices, then.

and most vulnerable being sacrificed for the stronger and better off.

preferences for meat and fish from their parents.
So its not their fault. Just like eye color.

shove veggies down their throats than religion into their minds. :)
I know, that is a frivalent answer, and I apologize. But as long as its not illegal, they have the right to raise their children as they see fit. Who knows, it may stick.

Our height, weight, hair color, our heart health, our IQ, our sexuality -- all influenced by both genes and environment.

;-)

birth, through genes, I guess, not by childrearing or environment. Supposedly, no amount of veggie shoving would affect the basic desire for meat or fish.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13316467/



Edit - added article reference.

Correction - Sorry, veggie shoving would influence other food preferences.

just because you have a "desire" for something, doesn't necessarily mean you have to act on it.

I have a friend who is vegan and is raising her daughter that way. My friend frequently rants about the horrible people who eat meat and consume animal products, how they're so unhealthy, etc. But meanwhile, my friend eats almost nothing but processed foods. She has found every single processed food that falls into the vegan category, including Pop Tarts. She can't believe anyone would let their kids eat meat.

My kids do eat meat, but on a limited basis, and we go out of our way to avoid mass-processed meat. We buy organic food when possible, have an organic garden with more square feet than our house, and avoid high fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated oils except on rare occasions. All three of my kids (all boys under age 8) love fruits and vegetables. How someone could say that their kids' diet is inherently better than mine by virtue of being vegan alone, is beyond me.

In truth, my diet is a lot better than hers, even though I'm not even vegetarian, let alone vegan. I don't care who wants to raise their kids vegan, but I don't like getting superiority trips about how a vegan diet is supposedly "so much healthier." A diet consisting mainly of processed food isn't healthy for anyone, vegan or otherwise.

I'm not one of those people to say no one should be vegan or raise their kids that way. But I sure wish the same courtesy went the other way - I've known very few vegans who didn't try to shove their beliefs down my throat.

I would say that it's harder to eat healthy as a vegan than as a meat eater, or regular vegetarian who eats dairy (a lacto/ovo).

A friend of mine who is a vegan would for a while only eat peanut and jelly sandwiches....it's a miracle he escaped his 20's.

You had one friend who was too lazy and stupid to eat anything other than PBJ sandwiches? I'd have to say that's a much bigger reflection on the company you choose than the average vegan. My mothers cardiologist is a vegan. My MIL's oncologist is a vegan. My own MD is a vegan. THIS IS IN NEBRASKA.

Between the three of them they probably have about a 3/4 of a million dollars worth of education and decades of experience but HEY..... you did have this friend.......... :eyes:

try not to pass them out.

In truth, my diet is a lot better than hers, even though I'm not even vegetarian, let alone vegan

But the courtesy has not gone the other way. I generally figure it's not my business to lecture my friends on what they eat. When I was a vegetarian, I felt the same way.

I really don't understand why some people need to tell others that they must be vegan or vegetarian. It's almost like fundamentalists trying to get people saved.

I respect your right to be vegan. Why is it so difficult to respect my right NOT to be?

their diets should be applauded.

too many parents let their kids eat total crap.

NT

I swelled up with so much gas I thought I had to go to the ER. Some people just can't do it, so please don't go around saying we all should. My mind was open, but my body closed the case.

you mean like an apple, or like somthing processed to be suitable for a vegan?

Seems more like maybe the mind was open, chose poorly and the body made an issue of it, then the mind closed.

An apple isn't going to get you through the day. What it comes down to is beans, more beans, greens, TVP, all of which I can't digest at all.

What it comes down to.

If that's all that available, then okay, I understand. Beans, greens and TVP? Yeah, um, welcome to the 21st century.

and I'll tell you if I can digest them and live adequately on them.

begs the advice of a doctor and nutritionist.

My sources, however, are all plant based, and I do quite well with them.

crap mouse

and I'll tell you whether I can eat enough of them to survive on without having an allergic reaction. I'm allergic to oxalic acid which is present in nearly all plant foods.

chocolate?

You have an ALLERGIC reaction to oxalic acid, isn't that pretty unusual?

Seeing as there's not a lot of information about it.

I can eat very small quantities of chocolate and other high-oxalate foods, too much and I turn purple--literally, bright magenta splotches covering my face, chest, and back--and later, pass out. The worst is spinach, I start getting splotchy after one or two bites.

My daughter has "unusual allergies" - and thought she had certain food allergies - but after testing it turned out that it wasn't exactly an allergic reaction - but something else altogether... some of the things she thought she was allergic to, she wasn't, and some of things she didn't know she was allergic to, she was. Some of her reactions LOOK like an allergic reaction - but they're not - it's more a matter of "tolerance" and elimination. Certain items she doesn't eliminate well and then they will build up and create a toxicity in her body - but it's not a true allergy.

She stops breathing with some of her allergies - so it's not something to mess around with.

If you are truly allergic to high-oxalate foods - you must read every label before you eat ANYTHING.

I mean, heck - you can't even drink BEER if you're allergic! Much less tea, not to mention many wheat products, spaghetti even...... damn man - what DO you get to eat! All the meats have *some* oxalate in them!

And I'm generally fine. I think that might be a good health principle in general, anyway.

you should talk to a nutritionist. I think at this point, with what's been said, I'd be violating the rules by suggesting you eat one thing or another.

I could go on.

You can live quite fruitfully and reproduce existing on the protein content of these foods.

It would be a very, very bad idea for a renal patient to eat much beans, nuts, legumes, fruit, squash, etc. You're lucky that you don't have to know exactly how much potassium and phosphorus you consume every day (too much of either and our hearts don't work and our bones shatter). I'm glad your chosen diet works for you, and would never urge you to change it for any reason.

I would never suggest to you that you should stop eating kittens to suit your convenience and/or your sensibilities. Bon Apitit.

Mais je ne mange pas des chatons - je préfère très des jeunes, très bébés d'offre (c'est-à-dire, quand je ne les alimente pas aux chiots génétiquement changés).

Je conviens - la vie est très commode!

It is a serious health concern, and we all have to make choices that work for us.


That said, if you were at all interested, there ARE vegetarian/vegans who suffer from renal disease. It takes a lot of planning, yes, but then being a vegetarian/vegan - period - or a renal patient - period - does, as well. Lots and lots of label reading for all, eh? :)


http://www.kidney.ab.ca/kitchen/tips/tips_vegetarianism.html


"According to the American Dietetic Association: “A well-planned vegetarian diet may be useful in the prevention and treatment of renal disease. Studies... suggest that some plant proteins may increase survival rates and decrease proteinuria ... and histological renal damage compared with a non-vegetarian diet.”


Animal protein tends to overwork the kidneys which in turn can cause a gradual decline in their ability to carry out their function in filtering waste from the body in the form of urine. Animal protein is high in sulphur-containing amino acids and these tend to leach calcium from the bones where it is excreted in the urine and may form stones. Meat and eggs contain two to five times more of these sulphur containing amino acids than are found in grains and beans (163). Vegetarian diets would therefore be expected to show less wear and tear on the kidneys than meat-based ones. A Harvard study found that intake of animal protein was directly associated with the risk of kidney stone formation. Researchers here found that an increase in animal protein from less than 50g per day to 77g per day was associated with a 33% increased risk of stones in men. ...Curhan GC et al, 1993. A prospective study of dietary calcium and other nutrients and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones.



Research published in 1996 found that a vegan diet can be regarded as a valid alternative to the standard conventional low-protein diet (CLPD) that is the nutritional treatment for patients with chronic renal failure. The authors concluded that not only could the problems of poor palatability and high costs of the CLPD be solved by the vegan diet but that additional advantages came from such a diet too. Compared with the conventional diet the vegan diet offered a high ratio of unsaturated to saturated fatty acids, the absence of cholesterol and lower net acid production ...Barsotti G et al, 1996. A low-nitrogen low-phosphorus vegan diet for patients with chronic renal failure. Nephron:74:390-394

- and has had to reduce her beans, legumes and nuts as well as cheese, eggs and meat.

I get "sick" every summer when the fresh fruits and veggies come in as my system doesn't like little seeds and fruit skins yet I love to eat them. Not everyone is cut out for a pure veggie diet.

Dr McDougall talks about that in one of his books, as it's a big problem for people the first week or so of his inpatient weight loss program. Before long the intestinal bacteria adapt and it's a non-issue (there may be a slight increase in gas as a side effect of increased carbohydrate digestion, but it's not generally a noticable difference.)

It could also be that a specific food you don't normally eat is the culprit. I have that problem when I eat seitan (braised wheat gluten.) edit: When I first went vegan I also found that soyfoods disagreed with my digestion so I only ate them occasionally and in moderation. Eventually my system adapted and I can eat them as much as I like now.

I'm very happy to support sustainable ranching, though, thank you. (All my meat/dairy/eggs are free-range organic, except occasionally when I eat in ethnic restaurants which tend to source better producers anyway.)

i'm not vegetarian, let alone vegan, as well, but it's kinda neat that they aired this. variety is the spice of life, so it's nice that people can be exposed to life's variety. a democratization of media is a neato thing.

(though i kinda wished this topic stayed a bit more focused on this neat media aspect instead of another dietary discussion. eh, c'est la vie.)