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Can you shoot cops who don't knock before they come in? ...Castle Doctrine

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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:03 PM
Original message
Can you shoot cops who don't knock before they come in? ...Castle Doctrine
(adding: if you don't know they're cops and believed you're threatened)-Atrios


"No Knock" Meet "Castle Doctrine"
By Nathan Newman
Jun 15, 2006

Two conservative legal doctrines are on a collision course. Today, the rightwing majority upheld the right of the police to enter homes without warning.

But recently, states like Florida have been passing NRA-backed "Castle Doctrine" bills that give homeowners the right to assume an unknown intruder is there to do bodily harm and can therefore be shot without any obligation by the homeowner to establish that the intruder is actually a danger.

Now, the text of such Castle Doctrine laws don't actually protect you if you shoot a police officer, but if the police don't identify themselves when they enter a home, it'll create a pretty bad legal tangle for juries when defendants can claim they thought the officer was an unknown intruder against whom they had the right to shoot on sight.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/jun/15/no_knock_meet_castle_doctrine

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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Aren't conservatives fun?
Actually they are dangerous constitution hating worthless motherfuckers.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. What BOSSHOG said....
This is nuts!!!
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Or fire fighters or EMTs? Or anyone else who might come in
to the wrong house/wrong unit?

I know you're allowed to shoot lone foreign kids out on Halloween who come to the door when they get addresses mixed up, so I say, why the hell not? Shoot 'em up!

/note: I've been in Houston this week, so some of that Don't Mess with Texas Spirit is rubbing off!
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow. Right wing gun mania runs smack dab into right wing drug war fascism.
Who'da thunk that might happen? :crazy:
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Write a passionate letter to the DEMS who refused to filibuster Alito.
I'm sure they could use another laugh at your expense.
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rustydog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. You are in your home and people in camoflage kick in your door
without warning?
You can shoot home intruders.
If I'm in bed and my door crashes in and I don't hear "POLICE! SEARCH WARRANT!",
I'll kill the first person entering the bedroom.

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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh you can believe that when this situation occurs....
and it will sooner or later, the cops will testify under oath that they knocked numerous times, announced who they were, knocked some more, called the residence to verify they had the correct house, knocked some more, announced that they were the police three more times.....then, and only then, did they kick in the door and barge into an occupied home.

Oh, the homeowner who was scared shitless and shot and killed an intruder, is innocent of the crime the cops thought he committed? You mean the cops relied on the word of known liars, cons, and drug dealers to build a "case" against an innocent homeowner?

Oooooops, our bad.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Police no longer have an obligation to knock
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. The author confuses two concepts
The Castle Doctrine with regard to self-defense actions taken inside of your own home has been the law for a very long time, including here in California. The Florida law and related laws you refer to extend the presumption that you have acted reasonably, to public places.

The comment is gobbledy-gook.
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. According to this explanation of the 'Castle Doctrine'
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 08:36 PM by LiviaOlivia
the writer was not off.

The Castle Doctrine here refers to a legal concept derived from English Common Law as it is presently applied in sections of the United States of America. It designates one's home as a place in which one enjoys protections from both prying and violent attack. In the United States, laws informally referred to as 'castle laws' impose an obligation to retreat before using force to defend oneself, the Castle Doctrine provides for an exception to this duty; provided one is attacked in their own home or vehicle, they may stand their ground against an assailant without fear of prosecution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

How the New "Stand Your Ground" Law Changed the "Castle" Doctrine
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html

Florida's new "Stand Your Ground" law changes Florida's self-defense rules in several ways.

First, it is now very easy to invoke the "castle" doctrine in Florida.

Under the old law, a person who killed someone in their home had the burden of proof to show that they were in fear for their safety. Now, all a person has to do is establish that the person they killed was "unlawfully" and "forcibly" entering their home when they shot the victim.

That is because the new creates a presumption that anyone who forcibly and illegally enters a home is intent on threatening the lives of the people within. And, at least according to a report written for the Judiciary Committee of the Florida Senate, that presumption is conclusive; it cannot be rebutted with contrary evidence.

So let's go back to Lisa and Bob. Under the old law, Lisa would have had to prove not only that Bob was in her home, but also that she was afraid for her life (or the lives of others in the house). In reality, that was often easy to do -- usually juries would take the word of a living homeowner over a dead burglar (even if the burglar was unarmed). But now Lisa, in theory, has a free hand to shoot even a plainly unarmed burglar as to whom he or she, in fact, felt no fear at all.

Second, the new Florida law expands the definition of "castle" to include vehicles -- such as cars and boats. This expansion the castle doctrine was clearly intended to address carjacking.

Third, in Florida, Lisa can now "stand her ground" even if she is outside of her home. But to do so, she must "reasonably believe" that using deadly force is necessary to prevent "imminent" use of deadly force against herself or others.


The question is: If you are asleep with children in your home and "people" break into your home without identifying themselves, existing state "Castle Doctrine" laws and Florida's modified law contradict BuchCo's Super fascist Court.

I disagree with you. It's the SCOTUS vs. the States and the writers argument holds up regardless of Florida.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Please see sections 198.5 and 199 of the California Penal Code
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:16 AM by slackmaster
198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the
person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and
discharged.


Isn't that pretty much what is described regarding the new Florida law in the paragraph you quoted? A homeowner who shoots a stranger who forcibly and unlawfully breaks into his or her house need not say anything about being actually in fear - The fear is presumed:

...That is because the new creates a presumption that anyone who forcibly and illegally enters a home is intent on threatening the lives of the people within. And, at least according to a report written for the Judiciary Committee of the Florida Senate, that presumption is conclusive; it cannot be rebutted with contrary evidence....

The only real difference I see between the new law in Florida, and what has been the law in California and most other states for a long time, is that the "reasonable fear" presumption is extended to places other than a person's home. There is no obligation to retreat in California and never has been. That's how things are in most states.

Index page for the California Penal Code at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=pen&codebody=&hits=20
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. key word here being 'illegally' (nt)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. That's the whole point
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:15 AM by slackmaster
If the police have a valid warrant, they can legally bust down your doors and you cannot legally shoot them.

The new Florida law DOES NOT CHANGE THAT.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Indeed. You CAN shoot the cop, but the castle doctrine won't cover it. nt
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Never did, does not now, and never will
:nuke:
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. The litigation will be "wrongful death" cases brought by the homeowner's..
The litigation will be "wrongful death" cases brought by the homeowner's
surviving relatives, because any homeowner who attempts to enforce their
"Castle Doctrine" rights is sure to be shot *VERY, VERY* dead by the
better-armed and out-numbering police.

But the clash will certainly come and it ought to be pretty interesting.
The NRA's collective head will probably explode as they try to figure
out which side to pander to: law enforcement or gun nuts.

Tesha
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hey gun owners!!! Stand up for your Second Amendment Rights!
Wake up!!! Bushler and his Praetorian Guard are coming for your guns!!!



After they come take them away from you, those of you left living will have a webcam shoved up your arse and chip embedded in your colon!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. Only if you're suicidal.
Cops generally take umbrage at being shot at under any circumstances and tend to react somewhat violently. And, it's pretty damn rare that they lose in a "he said, he said" court battle among the survivors of displays of machismo.
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. And of course the police always have the right address
when they break down doors.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Whoops! Sorry about that!
Just like the troops in Iraq. "We regret the deaths of civilians....".
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. Of course.
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kiraboo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm in love with that question.
Of course you can. But you won't live to tell about it. This country is falling down around our ears and the conservatives are cheering.
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. kick
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. so regular unlawful break and entry can shout out 'Police' after the door
is busted down.

whose gonna ask for their badge number or name with a gun pointed at you?
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. You probably "can"
but they'll probably shoot back.
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Sailor for Warner Donating Member (615 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. Asked my wife who is a public defender here in FL
about this and she says that that no you cannot shoot the cops. Well you can shoot them but then you will have no defense. The trick of the "Castle Doctrine" is that you have to be able to defend your action in court and there is no way you will be able to defend against shooting a cop.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. SCOTUS just upheld no-knock entry yesterday
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:14 AM by slackmaster
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060615-1328-scotus-policesearches.html

Therefore police, with a valid warrant, entering a home forcefully, are acting within the law. A homeowner who shoots them is certainly not protected by the law in Florida or any other state.

OTOH if the police have gone to the wrong address, i.e. they don't have a valid warrant, a homeowner can legally shoot them. I believe that is true in most states.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Actually I think that a good defense could be made for the homeowner
Say it's 2am, cop's favorite time to bust down doors. And let's say that the cops have gotten the wrong address of a door to bust down(a not uncommon occurrence). I'm fast asleep, the cops kick the back door in, which is within easy gunshot of my bed, without announcing that they're cops. It's dark, the first thing I hear is not about who this person is who is kicking in my door, I just hear the door go and the dogs barking. Damn straight I'm going to fire at anybody kicking my door in.

So why should I be charged with murdering a cop? I haven't committed a crime in order to expect the police to show up. I've met all the conditions pertaining to my state's Stand Your Ground law. It was dark, I couldn't ID the person as a cop, they didn't ID themselves beforehand, they kicked in the door next to my bedroom, hey, I justifiably felt threatened and responded with deadly, but legal, force. How could I be charged with murder? Simply because the person was a cop? Then that would almost automatically have to overturn yesterday's ruling:shrug:

Could very well make for some entertaining Supreme Court in the near future.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. You would not be charged with murder in Florida, or even in California
If the police break into a residence at the wrong address, they have no warrant and it's their misfortune if they get shot.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. OK then, let's say that the situation is the same
Except for the fact that the cops got the address correct. Say that I'm running a dope dealing operation, and they break in during the middle of the night. Further say that since I'm an intelligent dope dealer, they find none of the evidence that they were looking for. Think I would still be charged in the police officer's death?

The reason that I'm asking these question is that these are real world situations, and interestingly enough, you've got two conflicting conservative ideals that are headed towards each other for a huge train wreck in my opinion.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. You would not automatically be protected by Castle Doctrine
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 11:25 AM by slackmaster
Because the warrant is valid, police entry was lawful.

You would be charged with murder. You might be able to present a defense to justify your actions, but you would be on very shaky ground.

...you've got two conflicting conservative ideals that are headed towards each other for a huge train wreck in my opinion.

Because Castle Doctrine laws specify that the entry must be both forcible and unlawful for the presumption of reasonable fear to kick in, I don't see that there is any real difference between the old and new laws, at least inside of a person's home in Florida or other states.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. But under the clause of reasonable fear
I think there would be an out for myself. I think I'm well within my rights to consider somebody who is kicking in the door without announcing who they are to be a dire threat to my life, and yes, I would be shooting.

If the police don't announce themselves beforehand, how am I supposed to know that their entrance is valid or lawful:shrug: I don't know who they are since they didn't identify themselves, it is dark, so I can't tell who it is. So under the Castle Doctrine, why should I be held responsible for their death. At the time, I was in fear for my life and was defending myself, no matter what illegalities I was engaged in.

For what it's worth, I think that under any scenario, if a cop gets shot, whoever shot him, no matter the circumstances, no matter the law, the person who shot him is going to go to jail. The police state must be preserved at any costs, and it has been amply demonstrated over the years that laws will be broken, people will be killed in order to do so.

But as I said earlier, it is going to be an interesting SC case when one of these scenarios occur
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Even if the hypothetical intruder did yell that they were "Police,"
why would anyone necessarily believe that at 2 a.m. being awakened from deep sleep?

This ruling has some real problems built in to it and the real tragedy is that it is possible to foresee right nowsome preventable deaths and injuries occurring becuase of this ruling (both of home owners\dwellers and of law enforcement trying to execute a warrant without properly anoouncing themselves first).
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
25. Live by the gun, die by the gun
You want to kill police then expect for them to shoot back..
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. In Florida you sure can!
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:20 AM by annabanana
You can shoot someone if you feel threatened there!

(on edit: nominated. . We must ask this question LOUDLY)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Not if the police have a valid warrant
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:27 AM by slackmaster
That makes their entry LAWFUL, therefore Castle Doctrine does not protect a homeowner who shoots.

BTW I'm recommending this thread because I agree it should be discussed. There is a lot of misunderstanding here.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Why would that matter?
The only thing that is a burden on the homeowner is the reasonable belief that they think their life is in danger from the actions of the individual breaking into the house. If that individual didn't identify themselves as police, why would it matter if the entry is considered lawful, the homeowner doesn't know that, after all.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. The part in the law that says it applies to an UNLAWFUL entry...
an entry with a valid warrant, conducted in accordance with the criteria set forth in the warrant, is a LAWFUL entry.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Law explicitly states that entry must be forcible and illegal
In order for the Castle Doctrine presumption to kick in.

I'm referring to the new Florida "make my day" law. But that is also the case in blue California.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
29. Sure you can, just make sure you sleep in body armor...
otherwise, after that first shot you squeeze off in retaliation you will be met with a hail of bullets that, if you are lucky, they will still be able to identify you by your dental records.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
34. 95% of those who shoot at the cops wouldn't be prosecuted.
The dead aren't prosecuted. :shrug:
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
35. Good luck putting your word up against the cops.
Bottom line: Don't shoot a cop ever unless you're willing to go to jail for the rest of your life.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. True, you are always better off surrendering
Even if they have the wrong house.

This discussion is academic.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. So just surrender to ANYBODY who breaks into your door?
Is that the safest way to go about it?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Police busting in are likely to have the upper hand
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 03:14 PM by slackmaster
I don't sleep with a loaded weapon at my side.

And I live alone, so I would be outnumbered.

One punk breaking through my window and wielding a knife, would get beaten or shot.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Yes by all means..
... and you'd better be psychic and know they are cops.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
37. A cop or anyone else fucking with my door is going to get a 12 gauge blast
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 10:53 AM by LaPera
right through MY locked door! Maybe then the cops won't be so eager to just burst on into someones home, without proper warning... in light of the bullshit new fascist Supreme Court ruling!
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. I'm wondering how far the fascists will extend their power before...
they make it illegal for a citizen to own a gun? I know that the Repukes are supposed to be the party that protects your rights to own a semi-automatic rifle with armor piercing bullets, but eventually the opposing forces are going to come head to head so to speak. The fascist takeover can't very well become complete with an armed and potentially dangerous populace. They can't just take the guns out of the hands of "liberals" with out a major fight on their hands from both sides I would think. They would lose the confidence and support of the NRA gun lobby for sure. The logistics of sorting it all out would be near impossible. It would have to be total revocation or nothing.

I'm just thinking out loud, but I wonder how it will happen....:shrug:



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Lorax Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Shooting in the dark.
Why are you shooting in the dark at someone you can't see? That's why I keep a flashlight next to my gun. Now, if I get prosecuted for pulling my gun, then that would be wrong. Anybody could be breaking in my door. What if it was my kid in some kind of emergency? What if my neighbor was trying to break in to save me from a fire (we've actually had to do that before for a neighbor when the house we were renting was on fire)? I want to know who I'm shooting at before I pull the trigger.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. All rifle bullets are armor-piercing
in that all centerfire rifles will penetrate Kevlar body armor (you knew that, yes?) To stop a rifle round, you need either NIJ Level III or IV hard armor, not NIJ IIIA Kevlar.

FWIW, only about half of gun owners are repubs; a third are Dems, and the rest are indies or libertarians. You are quite correct that gun-rights groups will not just stand by if anybody, regardless of party affiliation, starts pushing for more gun bans.
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I should have said AND armor piercing bullets...
I was listing two different things actually, but my point is, at some point they can't have an armed public if they are to succeed in total take over. It will be a major stumbling block on their way to locking up complete and total power.

"FWIW, only about half of gun owners are repubs; a third are Dems, and the rest are indies or libertarians."

Exactly my point. THey can't just take away the weapons from half the country because that won't work. Maybe there's a hope for us all still. :shrug:

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. One hopes so...I'm cautiously optimistic. (n/t)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
50. Preventing such tragedies is why no-knocks used to be restricted...
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 01:59 PM by benEzra
I posted this in the other thread on the topic, but I think it's very pertinent so I'll also From an FBI report on the way things USED to be, before this awful ruling:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/may976.htm

UNDERLYING RATIONALE FOR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE

The Supreme Court has determined that "every householder, the good and the bad, the guilty and the innocent, is entitled to the protection designed to secure the common interest against unlawful invasion of the house."19 The knock and announce rule provides citizens with psychological security, knowing that one need not fear an unexpected intrusion. Privacy interests also are protected, avoiding unnecessary embarrassment, shock, or property damage resulting from an unannounced entry.

The rule serves to protect both the individual citizen and the police from the risk of harm and the potential for violence that may occur as a result of an unannounced entry.20 Announcement protects officers by ensuring that they are not "mistaken for prowlers and shot down by a fearful householder."21 Innocent citizens also are protected from law enforcement officers who mistakenly might shoot armed occupants who merely are trying to defend themselves from who they preceive to be armed intruders.



The second paragraph is especially pertinent.

I would also point out that if you are NOT a criminal, NOT doing or selling drugs, etc., then the masked men kicking in your door are more than likely NOT police officers. Police occasionally get the wrong house, but they are usually very careful not to raid the wrong place (big civil liability, if nothing else). In the past few years, the number of home invasions by criminals posing as police have greatly outnumbered incidents of police raiding the wrong place, although thankfully both are quite rare.

IMHO, the way out of this is to reserve no-knock warrants for known violent criminals, and return "knock and announce" warrants to the role they were intended. Making paramilitary raids the first resort for serving routine search warrants is a step down a bad road indeed.


BUT, there is an even more troubling component to the recent ruling, that I'm not sure many people have noticed. If you read the ruling, you will see that the opinion does NOT dispute that the search was unlawful. Rather, it says that the evidence obtained in this kind of unlawful search is no longer subject to the exclusionary rule.

If the court is willing to throw the exclusionary rule out the window, then this ruling may have ramifications far beyond how a warrant is served. Once you set the precedent that evidence obtained via unlawful searches may be presented in court, you've just eliminated the ONE provision that makes a search warrant necessary in the first place. It's not a big leap from allowing evidence from this unlawful search, to allowing evidence from other kinds of unlawful searches.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
53. You Can Shoot Anyone Anywhere Anytime
but it may not be legal

and you may get your ass blown away

I'd think that shooting cops that bust in on you would be a sure way to get your ass blown away
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
54. I damn sure would
And I'd unleash my pit bull on them too. I'm not a law breaker, but with Bush in power, nobody is safe.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
56. This is a spurious line of reasoning.
The police do not have the right to enter homes without warning in most situations.

The rule was they must knock, announce themselves, and wait a reasonable time. This rule was void under certain conditions--if a life was in danger, or they reasonably suspected the evidence would be destroyed. This is still the rule.

The case involved the police not knocking, and waiting only 3-5 seconds. They announced themselves, though. They entered. The defendant argued that the evidence obtained under the warrant must be excluded. Since that was most of the case, he's saying that since they failed to knock, he must be found not guilty.

So what did the decision say?

The crux of the matter is whether the proper penalty was excluding evidence obtained, under warrant, when the police failed to abide by all the provisions of the knock-and-announce rule. The ruling that it was too high, had the ruling been followed exactly the same evidence would have been found; it does not have to be excluded.

The knock-and-announce rule was not overturned; one possible penalty was. In fact, there was discussion as to how the rule should enforced. Is the threat of civil suit sufficient deterrence? Maybe. Are police department rules and policies, as required by the city or county commissions, sufficient? Maybe. Hence "better policing", which is the wrong term; 'increased professionalism' is a better term. Dispute all you want whether these are sufficient to protect civil liberties. SCOTUS thinks there must be some appropriate penalty. They just didn't say, because that wasn't the question. Failure to knock isn't ok, neither is not waiting long enough (although they also didn't define 'long enough'): the police still are to give suitable time to give the householder time to comply with the request, to avoid the possibility of injury or harm, or to maintain the householder's privacy and dignity.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. The problem is, previous courts had found that the exclusionary rule
was the ONLY effective deterrent to illegal searches and seizures. I've got the citation around here somewhere...ah, yes. The Mapp decision, handed down by the Supreme Court in 1961, was the final decision on the subject, as far as I can tell.

The court has just ruled that the ONE effective deterrent is no longer in play (at least for some illegal searches). It remains to be seen how quickly the blind eye will be turned to other types of illegal searches, such as searches with no warrant at all.


Here's an excellent legal synopsis, from the High Road (popular gun forum--no trolls, please):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2511815&postcount=100

Knock-and-announce is part and parcel of serving a warrant. Without that, the entry into the home becomes an unlawful entry and any evidence seized becomes tainted, from that unlawful entry, and is suppressed.

At least since Weeks (1914) at the federal level and Mapp (1961) at the state level, that has been the law until now. In fact, Justice Breyer lists 41 major 4th amendment cases to document this. And what does the majority list? 4 cases, selectively reviewed and taken out of context. A context that Breyer put back in!

Since the signing of the Magna Carta, knock and announce has been the common law. Semayne's Case (1603), the Court of King's Bench explained, "the law <...> abhors the destruction or breaking of any house (which is for the habitation and safety of man) by which great damage and inconvenience might ensue to the party, when no default is in him." So it appears that part of the reason for knock-and-announce is for the prevention of destruction of private property! Researching this further reveals that the sanctity of the home and hearth were such, that the King's men would knock, announce themselves, their purpose and their authority. They were permitted entry if denied and upon warrant of the King, if no one was at home.

If there is no remedy for police/prosecutorial abuse, then what is to prevent the abuse? The exclusion of evidence is the only deterrent that works. This was pointed out in Mapp. Criminal and civil remedies did not work then, and they don't work now.

And to clear things up, at the trial court, the police said they announced, waited a few seconds and went in. The defense insisted there was no knock and no announcement. What was never contested was that the entry was unlawful. Should have been a slam-dunk. Unlawful entry results in an unlawful search. That's what the law was up till now.

What the State is saying is that IF the entry had been lawful, then the search would have been also. Irrelevent! Would have, could have, If, Might have, all mean nothing. It is what actually happened, that matters... Well, used to matter.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
58. Cory Maye - sitting on death row now because he shot a cop
entering his bedroom in the middle of the night. He obviously didn't hear them knock. They were in the wrong house as it turns out.

Of course, it is Mississippi....and he's black....and the person he shot was white.
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