If the elections are really being stolen ...

... Let's suppose Rove has really set up a machine to steal elections in swing districts. Let's suppose that in the upcoming Congressional elections, despite exit polling to the contrary, Republicans lose no seats or even pick up a few. What do we do then? Is there anyone in the country who has the standing and will to lead what might be a very serious and dangerous fight? Who?

Don't go to work. Don't do a GD thing until it is openly and fairly counted.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, the people I know that are NOT associated with DU don't give a damn about election theft.
They prolly don't even know a thing about the elections that have already been stolen.
If you and I and everyone who reads DU boycotts work because we believe that an election has been stolen, the LOCAL news will not even carry the story, much less the National News. It would make that small an impact.

I'm the only person in my family (except my mother on occasion) who posts on DU. I have a BIG family and they ALL believe the elections have and will continue to be stolen. And they talk to other people, and those people talk to other people and so on.
DU is only a small place.
Don't believe the machine, people DO care......and they're getting really fed up!

....the people I know that are NOT associated with DU don't give a damn about election theft., that's pretty darn sad. I wonder how these people feel about the US trying to bring Democracy to the Iraqis, while ours is being stolen right under our noses, up close and personal? :banghead:

that showed about 40% of Americans think the 2004 election was stolen. It is a minority. But "small minority" is an arguable assertion.

or 95%, and it happens overnight. The snowball becomes an avalanche, and it happens FAST! People may not believe it yet, but they are ready to believe it, if you know what I mean.

If they're truly the majority, they wouldn't have to steal it.

like the one in NY outside the RNC...? Or how about the Mexican Immigrants....? all it takes is talent, leadership and mobility. Oh and sacrifice, unlike the paid GOP sycophants that HAVE to do it for money. THAT SACRICE is why WE are stronger than they ever will be, which by the way is a tiny minority (30% of those who actually voted in 2004?).

n/t

General strikes have never been an option in this country for that reason.

get ahead. Welcome those workers into your ranks. It's the only way. The worker's who don't want to unionize will get fired. I saw it happen on my union jobs.

Fantasy: Masses of Americans begin a general strike that cripples the economy, refusing to go back to work until the fraudulent republicans step down.

Reality: Masses of Americans go back to work, stand around the water cooler and argue about who is going to win American Idol.

Reality some patriots accidentally knock over Faux's broadcast tower.
Reality real patriots take it to the street.

What are you willing to do to stop the coming Holocaust?

I would love to see it. I would be on the streets myself. But I won't be holding my breath for this to happen.

live in a corrupt FASCIST system WITH NO HOPE, I insist on having at least HOPE.

Oh, we get flashes, like the rumors of Fitzmas, but then the reality of RepublicanChristoFascist rule forever sets in :cry:

Even with no hope of victory, we must not give up the fight.
The tide of fascism may be unstoppable, but we can still slow it down a bit.

it would explain the lack of spine in our DINO's in office. it can't be solely greed freezing the large portion of our former party.

election before the people take to the streets.

2000:


2002:


2004:

the next huge protest that is done should be the LAST one. Occupy Washington and don't leave until the chimp resigns. Hilarity and bullets ensue.

They did massive rallies in several cities over a period of two months. It forced politicians to tread carefully when addressing the immigration issue.

That implies it happened in the past. How many times was it stolen in the past? What happened after those times? Why do you expect it to be any different in the future?

The American people feel the malaise. They know something's wrong in this country. They're turning against the war, against the deficit and against the intrusion of privacy - from the NSA wire taps to the womb invasions to the Terri Schiavo fiasco.

Maybe THIS time - and that's a HUGE "maybe" - if the Republicans retain and/or PICK UP seats, they start realizing that SOMETHING is TERRIBLY WRONG.

Either that, or they'll just sit and scratch their fat backsides whilst watching American IDLE.

little hope of any change anytime soon. The majority of people don't even pay attention while democracy is no more, as long as corporations tally the votes.

Democracy R.I.P-1776-2000
911, patriot act, Illegal war. NSA spying on each and every American! Administration disregarding the law with no accountability.
Ever since 2000 they're just allowing us to have our little election charade. But if we get too out of hand, look out. Marshal law, then no more election.


Excuse me while I finish smoking this fatty...lol.

I think most people are afraid to talk about it, which is entirely understandable.
So they will talk about anything else to keep their minds off it.

Good to know there will be some smokers in "La Resistance".:hippie:

I was a dispatcher at the time, it was a big subject of conversation. :)

I just wanted you to know, they got attention, and they made an impact. :D

entire city (spread across the nation) to work as election justice activists.

Start here: Courageous Schakowsky (D-IL): WAS 2004 ELECTION STOLEN? "ONLY ANSWER YES"

Then visit:
VotersUnite.org
VoteTrust.org
ACLU
People for the American Way
Democractic Lawyers for Election Justice

voteraction.org has been bringing lawsuits to stop the spread of Diebold Republican Electing Machinez.

"After (insert incident here) you can throw away all the polls, this election is now up for grabs!"

and work with them NOW.

We need your help NOW, not after the Next One.

They're implementing HAVA NOW = positioning machines and new voter registration "databases" all over the country.

We need your help NOW.

Please go check the Election Reform Forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203

:hi:

Why should 2006 or 2008 be any different? We've beein OWN3D!

We gave it our best shot in '04.

I believe this is the last election that Antichrist Rove will rely on manipulating the ballot box. Easy for a Presidential election. Tough for all those pesky Congressional seats. Antichrist Karl knows that the long-term solution is to disenfranchise whole groups of Americans. Seniors, minorities, felons - those Katherine Harris types that a button eliminates. That is what we face. Roll back the Voting Rights Act. That is Karl's greatest dream. He is frightening beyond Coulter, O'Reilly, his puppet Bush. And any others - including Cheney.

other evidence since at least 2000 and its been getting worse every election.

WAKE UP MAN. ITS GOING TO HAPPEN AND NOBODY IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING BUT CONCEDE.

WE ARE SCREWED. SCREWED!

I don't see the will in the people to do anything about it. Unless they screw up their fraudulent efforts so badly it's plainly obvious even to people who don't usually believe anything unless the media reports it, ie. "solid, uncontestable evidence" or "smoking gun", no one will do anything more than talk.

The only exception might be if someone with real leadership ability and sufficient wealth/power to be heard steps up and makes "Honest" Electoral Reform his priority--and then reaches out, actually calls on the American people (where only the outraged Democrats are likely to hear)(it's the same phenomenon of being in a crowded, noisy room with everyone talking at once--and you can't make out any stream of conversation until someone calls out your name: then you're able to hear that one voice) to follow his plan for fixing this national embarrassment. They should have a plan--as simple as reinstating basic "Paper Balloting" (such as used SUCCESSFULLY in Germany, Spain and a number of other advanced western nations). Discarding the electronic touch screen machines as well as the electronic card counting machines and so on. Simple is best. It's easy to do, and it's inexpensive too!

That is to say, we must have real leadership... and that means somebody known and respected has to make it a priority and be able to reach the people with the message--despite non-coverage and anti-coverage that will be presented by the M$M. Some mean feat... If this doesn't happen before (a) the internet is compromised, or (b) the 2008 elections, after all the predictions of final loss--methinks that will indeed be the end of any chance to resolve this via our "Democratic" methods.

You ask who... I would be truly surprised (and delighted, and relieved, and excited too) if anyone can provide an answer. Who will do this, who even can do this... a solid, and meaningful question.

There are other potential outcomes or possibilities, even including having some grass-roots organization achieve enough power to lead such a reform... It's just probably most easily, effectively achieved by an individual charismatic leader.

I would say that the Repugs have an advantage in funding their election machinery which monopolizes the counting of votes electronically. The 3 corporations should have been broken up and nationalized at the very least. Private business has a conflict of interest in the voting system as it stands now. That has to be eradicated. Anyone who can not see this has serious shortcomings in logical judgement.

Our strength is in sheer numbers. It's a minority which is doing the cheating. Counting has to be done manually at some point. It's not hard, and there is an open and verifiable process here. You don't need complex programming code and IC chips to add numbers up.

Paper receipts are the first step, but that isn't going far enough until I know that the counting is statistically reasonable in exit polling, too.

I'm sometimes overwhelmed by the numbers of Repugs but I have to remind myself that they are just localized in some states and it can give the appearance of a majority when none exists at all.

haven't caught that abbreviation. what's that anyway?

…that will be pulling out the stops to elect Republicans.

If our system is really that corrupt, then eventually the masses will have to rise up. Mao Tse Tung understood that the middle class will not rise up. They'll stay inside and lock their doors, protecting what little they have, and wait for the storm to pass. It will be the hardened union workers, the students, and the political activists who take to the streets. I wouldn't put it past the right wing to respond with police or military force, but that would lead to chaos.

The good news is that we're a capitalist country, and if there's instability, the capitalists will turn against the corrupt powers, because the stock market will crash. So, I think it is possible for us to rise up, if we get an ally like the AFL-CIO and students. The biggest worry to me is that there's no one out there who seems capable of leading something like this. Maybe Gore? Gore is big, strong, and fiery. But, he's really just a DLC Democrat, at least he was. But, someone really important and influential is going to have to stand up and say, "Our democracy is dead. We must fight to restore it."

A good insight into human nature. I'm sure that we can learn a lot from other revolutions, especially modern ones like Mao's China and elsewhere.

I know that there were millionaires who were socialist back in the 1920s here in the US, and really there are some wealthy people like that today, maybe not socialist from other viewpoints but definitely there could be some large financial waves crashing because of the increasing tendencies of a neo-fascist government here.

I think the Democrats are de-centralized but there is still enough potential in this, so I am not totally discouraged yet. The fact that the Repugs have to steal elections in order to maintain and perpetuate their power, that's their Achilles' heel IMHO. They do tend to have more purchasing power, but that's only when the US economy is strong, which it isn't in terms of the deficits and the endless drain from the wars and occupation (Iraq and Afghanistan now, but I wouldn't put it past them to make up another phoney exuse for another invasion).

As for a leader to challege them, so I don't see it coming here, but I am hopeful to see the South American population already revolting in their backyard. Revolting in the sense that they are rejecting Washington's neoliberal and capitalist command economy. Now it may be too late to de-stabilize Venezuela, Brazil, and the other countries down there. Chavez is on the road to arming his working-class population for their defense in the showdown against Bush's imperial and fascist state. This is the best opportunity to do this.

As long as the good guys are winning in our "backyard", we know that time is on our side.

This could be an inspiration for everyone, including us.

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If they win in 2006 and 2008,look for them to start WW III.

we have to steal one for the Dems. Imagine the stink the pukes would make if they even suspected an election were hacked in favor of a Dem.

Then maybe the system would have countable paper ballots.
Both sides could then agree that we need a verifiable way to cast and count votes.

Or lose their keys while parked in front of a downtown bank, etc

Gee I sure hope everyone remembers to gas up and stuff.

If the machines are in enough areas and we do know already the votes will be tampered with / completely ripped off , then smash the machines and toss them to the street and no one votes in these areas . Or you can wait to see how it went and travel even further to DC and all meet for as long as it takes out in front of the whitehouse .

Also I don't agree there are too few of us out here , the true number will be seen when others who are more hesitant see this and join in .

what they would look like, i dunno, but that's what the second ammendment is REALLY for, to allow us to take up arms in the event that a crazies take over the government...

seems to me that the poor would have the biggest incentive to lead this kind of revolt...

by all accounts we should trounce them in the congressional races. No amount of propaganda can cover up how bad they have fucked up this country. It's ours to lose. If we don't win the majority and it smacks of tampering or other dirty tricks then all bets are off. We live in an occupied country at that point and we should start acting accordingly.

Right now, I dont think the GOP machine can steal every election in every state. Make sure everyone that you know votes Democratic for state legislature candidates. If we can take back most if not all of the state houses out there, we can have our state reps and state senators completely revamp the voting process in all of the states.

To one of the leaders who is active not only in MA state politics, but nationally.

I asked him:

Why on earth won't the dems address the election fraud?

He didn't have an answer. He agreed with my points on the issue of election fraud. He tried to deflect it back to the public and indifference. I disagreed. I told him that the dem leaders need to LEAD on the issue and educate the public. I asked him where were the town hall meetings? Where were the dem press conferences? Where is the united dem voice?

He then tried to dismiss it and say we just had to keep working hard.

I do NOT understand this...I truly do not. WHY? Why won't the dems even TALK about it? WHY, WHY, WHY?

If they are rigging the machines and suppressing our side's votes, how can we win?

If the dems don't talk about it NOW, it will be written off in 2006 as the result of redistricting. A few more people will catch on (the vast majority will not)...and back to business as usual.

I have already psychologically prepared myself for the worst this November. I am still volunteering. I am still getting out the vote. (I am in MA, so we may have a shot at a dem governor since we have paper trails here, so I have SOMETHING to work for...)

God, HELP US.

... but first we need the Democratic party to begin leading the way. God helps those who help themselves.

So far, I am extremely pissed that the party has no stand on the voting machines. Who the hell trusts the machines over thousand of human counters? The party seems to. They have dissed the people and placed their faith in machines. Well, that's what the pukes have done, and in this case it looks like there is no difference.

Dean has spoken out, or rather kinda muttered out. Not enough. The party as a whole needs to scream out what it is: There is a loaded gun pointing right at the heart of the democratic party and Democracy!

Paper trails are good, but only if used. The party needs to begin instituting a process whereby citizens can legally, and without interference, hand count as many ballots as we desire before the vote becomes official.

So there are a few things the party can easily begin putting in place to restore confidence, and I give them til August to do so.

Refuse to vote on machines not verifiable or without a paper trail the voter can see.

The elections will be stolen again. They are in control and they do not want to lose power.

The recent ruling by the Supreme Court will eventually result in conservatives being betrayed by the President. We have witnessed from Waco/Ruby Ridge how conservatives get when they are betrayed.

That maybe the election isn't rigged? That the people are just voting stupid?

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

other countries results.

'04 was the first time in the history of the world (or as long as they've been done and accurate) that exit polls didn't match the vote.

Something is fishy.

I want paper ballots (yeah! Andy) with at least those scanner punch cards.

"Dewey Defeats Truman"

The media can be very, very wrong.

I'm not saying it wasn't rigged. I'm not saying something isn't fishy. But you are making a claim that the media is 100% truthful and accurate. That statistics is 100% accurate. And I am here to tell you that they are not accurate. I took several statistics classes and I can assure you that there is absolutely no possible mathematical way you can determine the results of an election by taking exit samples. You can get close, but you can't be perfect. And if the election is within several thousand votes when millions have been cast... you can throw the exit polls out the window because the margin of error is compromised.

...that is right. Exit polling is a bad way to manage the vote. But it is, at this point the only way to explain how the pukes got elected, because we sure as heck can't have faith in the machines that are Republican owned. Those machines counted 80% of the vote in 2004.

There is much disagreement over the reported exit polls in the last election. More than there ever has been. There should not be so much disagreement. One reason why is that the pollers won't release all the data they acquired, data that could end the argument once and for all.

So since the exits are crucial to the determination of the correctness of the election of our government, we should demand all the data be released.

guess what? i only took one and did rather poorly at it. but autorank has a challenge for you if you think your statistics chops are up to snuff. truthisall has proved statistically it's not stupid voters (although we have plenty of them, for sure).

I was on the internet the entire election day in 2004 - I actually voted the day before - I watched the exit polls like a hawk and things were going very well EVERY THING I was seeing indicated Kerry was going to win - and then the turn happened and he mysteriously lost. Yes probably alot of people voted stupid - but the majority did not - and its not just the machines and the counting its the systematic DEMOCRATIC voter supression - 2000 was stolen - GA 2002 was stolen and 2004 was stolen - and I know deep down in my heart of hearts it is going to happen again in November - I feel it to my core

That what the parties did in the 19th century, and Democrats may have to keep that option on the table for 2008.

Think about this: what if you represented a center left or center right party in Germany in 1933. You were faced with the choice of running a clean campaign, appealing to the best in people and running on the issues, or stealing the election for the good of the German people, and the people of the world. What would you do?

It's an ugly choice, I know. It's all fine and good to talk about running a clean and efficient campaign, according to all of the rules that are in the rulebook (on paper anyway), but the reality is that that does not always work, and sometimes for the good of the country, an election must be stolen, for the good of the people and the survival of the nation. There are a lot of stupid, bigoted and ignorant people out there, and they can't always be counted on to know what is best for them.

WHY AREN'T THE DEMOCRATS TACKLING THIS HEAD ON?

can anyone give anything remotely resembling a reasonable explanation as to why the democratic party, AS A WHOLE, is not fighting this? if not, we have to suspect complicity.

I really do think mainstream people are starting to wonder what went down in Ohio. The Democratic party as a whole may be clueless on this issue but Howard Dean and the DNC know whats up. He's the only person to hack a voting machine on TV. I have kind of a crazy idea on how to stop another election theft but only if this idea spreads quickly.

Heres what we should do. Get everyone who will be voting democratic to show up to the polls dressed in blue. Then have people video tape the lines of people waiting to vote for as long as the polls are open. Therefore if a district mysteriously goes republican we can cast public doubt on the outcome by showing the video of a sea of people wearing blue. Please spread this idea around.

- Aloha Texan

the results are correct...They can not. With the easily hackable machines, purposely made to distort & manipulate(republicans own & control the machines)...The talking heads just read and announce what they are fed, as fact...So prove it! Impossible, (just the way the republicans want it) with their stealing, hackable Diebold machines!

But, we have to live with it!

Y'know its real easy to toss our hands up, give up hope, and scream "theres nothing we can do !!! The other side is too powerful and we cant win no matter what". I personally am not ready to give up without a fight yet. We can will and must come up with a plan to verify the results of the 2006 election regardless of how useless the MSM is these days.

Aloha Texan

I don't understand the hopelessness either, but I sure do feel it sometimes. If the Diebold rigging is real, and that many of my fellow Americans are reallly that willing to steal an election, then confronting that issue is staring a Moby Dick in the eye, a journey into the heart of darkness. The only alternative becomes a political fight, possibly literally a fight. We've gone 2012 years without going down that road. It's a scary thought.

I really hope it doesnt go that far. However, if we dont do everything within are legal rights to prevent it .... we simply suck. I dont believe we suck and neither fear nor hopelessness should prevent us from putting an end to this electoral farce. We could fund our own exit polls or all wear the same color when voting. We just need to convince the other less conspiracy-minded dems that this is a serious problem.

Aloha Texan

Aloha Texan

However, I feel I must point out a real reality...Some Dem's certainly have their heads, up their...Hmmm, buried in the sand...Just means even more hard work to be done(I'm ready)...Because, the Republicans/Rove - are indeed looking to steal the November elections and beyond, through their republican owned machines now in place...helped through with the bullshit republican written, "Help America Vote Act" (HAVA) of 2002...What do the republicans have to lose by stealing it? Except taking office with no way to truly count the votes...

And continuing their corporate fascism.

I'm always going to be there, in the end, fighting! Count on it!!

Expect a 'rock' festival...