A Flag-burning Amendment would, by definiton, be constitutional.

In the past, when Congress passed laws banning Flag desecration, those laws were, of course, unconstitutional. But if the forces of jingoistic national fervor can swing an amendment, hey. More power to them. Amendments that would actually HARM people (like the recent anti-gay-marriage debacle), or amendments that would actually restrict important rights in substantial ways (such as a constitutional abortion ban), THOSE we should fight. But this?

I think this is a stupid non-issue.

When I was younger, and more idealistic, I worked myself into a dander over every single attempt by the right-wing thugs to distract America from real issues with these kinds of stupid non-issues. Then I realized that I was being distracted, and that their strategery was working perfectly.

The flag is a symbol. The citizens who support this amendment are valuing a symbol over the ideas they represent. By getting all worked up over this, (and believe me, I'm right with all of you in how offensive I find this amendment), we are ALSO overlooking the fact that the flag is just a symbol. It's not about the cloth, it's about the ideas. It's about the symbolism. And while this might seem terribly "meta", anyone who wants to express their dissatisfaction with the actions of the United States by burning a symbol of the US, could just as easily express their dissatisfaction by burning a SYMBOL of that symbol.

Here's my plan - if this amendment passes, I intend to sell "Burnable Flags". You know, from a distance, it would look just like the real flag, guaranteed to make American Legionairres stand up and salute. But if the flag police show up and try to arrest someone for burning one, it can be shown to have enough dissimilarities (maybe 12 stripes, or 51 stars) that it would not be a REAL flag, and therefore completely legal to burn. Take that, fascists!

The whole thing is stupid. If the Republicans are so desperate that THIS is all they have left, we should be celebrating, not gearing up for battle. Every Democrat in the Senate should make the same speech - "If my honorable colleagues on the other side of the aisle wish to waste the valuable time of this body debating an asinine amendment such as this while American soldiers are dying, and while our borders remain unsecured, and while energy costs and medical costs are driving millions of Americans into bankruptcy, then by all means, debate away. Just let us know when you are done and want to get back to work - we'll be in our offices."

In fact, that's a pretty good way to handle EVERY stupid political non-issue distraction the Republicans throw out there, if you ask me.

Even Antonin Scalia said so.

Party the official state party. It doesn't make it right.

you're arguing 'right', not 'constitutional.'

There's some congruence between morally/ethically right/wrong and legal/illegal, but only some.

Thou shalt not commit premeditated homicide. Congruence.

Thou shalt drive on the right side of any divided road. No congruence.

And I'm sure there are things that people find morally wrong but legally required: whether it's permitting a Klan march or being required to rent to an unmarried couple.

But that is beside the point. :hi:

Any ratified amendment to the Constitution is, by definition, constitutional. And if enough people in both the House and Senate believe that something is proper and acceptable, and enough people in enough states agree, then it is proper and acceptable. It doesn't matter whether the issue involves forcing state to guarantee the rights of the people (Amendment 14), taking away a state's power to appoint its senators and giving it to the people (Amendment 17) or outlawing all political opposition to the Republicans (Amendment never, I hope.)

that didn't mean that it was "proper and acceptable" above the Mason-Dixon line for many people. (Granted, the Abolitionists were a fringe movement even in 1859, but their numbers were statistically significant, particularly in certain regions like the Northeast.)

I think I'd actually be willing to commit civil disobedience if such an "no flag desecration" amendment were to pass, although I'd want to think carefully about it beforehand. There are times, as Mario Savio once said, when the machine is so odious that the only proper response is to throw one's body onto the cogs of the machine.

very clever. :-)

if the amendment passes? Goldmine:)

it's easier and couldn't possibly be against the law in the USA.

A brisk upturn in flag burnings would probably increase sales. I know if I were overcome with an urgent need to burn a flag I would have to go buy one first.

:shrug:

millennium? Of course, most of the flags will probably be made in China or in the maquilladoras, so I don't know whether a forward-thinking American investor could cash in on the trend.

I wouldn't be in favor of it, but wouldn't that also be "Constitutional"?

A friend and I actually made one. It's short a stripe and a star, but definitely looks like the real thing. We thought we'd call it 'This Flag's For Burning'. However, I am totally and completely against this amendment. It's a blow to the first amendment. We can't support it. It does matter.

How about if I draw a picture of the flag and burn that? Would I be allowed to burn a photograph of the flag? What about a flag with 48 stars, which was the American flag but has been superceded by the flag with 50 stars? Or maybe a replica of a flag from the American Revolution which was never officially an American flag? If I had a beach blanket that looked like the flag, could I burn that? How about boxer shorts or a bikini printed with the stars and stripes? A baseball cap with the flag embroidered on the front, would it be illegal to burn that?

Seriously, where would the line be drawn?

no one pays attention to it in any case. Only in DC, though. Weird reg. (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 3)

I'm not big on symbols, but as long as we're going to have one, the people who get their panties in a wad over burning the flag should try following the existing regulations regarding its care and use, instead of shrieking about others making a political statement.

I get a big chuckle out of all the right-wingers who literally drape themselves in the flag: on their hats, on their shirts, emblazoned on their paper napkins, draped across the back of their couch. ALL violations of flag etiquette.

on edit: spelling

legitimate American flag (all stripes and stars included) onto a screen and then set fire to the screen, would that be flag desecration? Or would it be merely "screen desecration"?

The mind boggles at the possibilities.

As a veteran, American Legion and VFW member I find flag burning a disgusting way to protest. As an American who fought for the rights guaranteed Americans I believe that our first amendment rights need to be defended at all costs. This is a non-issue. The American Legion and VFW burn more flags than any other group, organization or individual in this country. They are retired with dignity, yet this law would make their disposal by these organizations a crime.

Passing an Amendment to the Constitution takes more than just Senate and House approval. It has to go the the individual states for their vote. This will never pass muster. Look how long the Equal Rights Amendment languished in limbo. It is a waste of precious time that the congress could better spend on real problems. Its not like there's an epidemic of flag burning in this country.

They worry about flag burning while they are shredding the constitution. Go figure. Mid terms and 2008 just can't come soon enough.

other VERY important parts of the Constitution. Great idea. Teach people that amending the Constitution in order to be more "patriotic." That is going to work out so well for future generations.

It IS important. Free speech should be inviolate. Period.

You want to pass an amendment banning Nazi parades? Sounds great. Most people would go for it. But what if it were worded "No hate group shall have the right to march in public."

Don't think the right-wing would try to ban NOW from marching? How about Greenpeace?

Don't think the RNC is going to not push for arrest of anyone who has the flag/elephant symbol in the red circle slash "No" symbol? They'll call it flag desecration which is how the amendment they are pushing for is actually worded.

Do NOT give ground to these people under any circumstances.

between two and seven American flags are burned in protest every year in the United States.

How does that number compare to that of children molested by priests and other "men of God" every year?

And Congress is debating amending the Constitution to protect a piece of cloth manufactured in the "Republic" of China by slave labor?

:argh:

And I don't just mean this:

And the attendant flag law: as per the July 7, 1976 amendment (Public Law 94-344, 94th Congress, S.J. Res. 49)
to the Flag Code (Title 4, U.S. Code Chapter 1, June 22, 1942) as included below.

Of course, since I do not tie myself into symbols like flags I'll do whatever I want to a piece of cloth with the Stars and Stripes on it...

Yes, I realize that this is mostly a symbolic amendment, pandering to the conservative base. However, symbolic or not, it does have real consequences, it does limit our right to freedom of speech, and opens up a whole slippery slope that we will slide down. Sorry, but I'm not willing to give up any part of our civil liberties without a fight. Sad to see that so many are.

By the way, your idea about the burnable flag is brilliant, but I'm sure the reactionaries can show intent or symbolism to try and close this loophole.

My take on all this is to just take the wind out of their sails by saying "fine; make it illegal". The big question--and what you then throw in their face--is HOW illegal? Is it a death offense? Does it warrant killing your immediate family, running off your livestock and salting your lands? Just how vindictive do you want to be?

Yeah, it's an important first-amendment issue, but it's a no-win situation that I don't think leads us down the pike to other infringements. Make it illegal. Gosh, flag-burners are bad people. Do this and it deflates their windbaggery.

It's like the old law that makes it illegal to walk down main street with an ice cream cone in your back pocket: how many times does this happen? How many flag burnings are there? Effigies are much more fun anyway, and if we stand against "flag protection" (what an idiotic fixation) we fall into the trap of being for the desecration of the country. It's an idiotic and no-win situation that we should simply forestall by saying okay, then turning the tables on them by demanding to hear how drastic the punishment should be.

the power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag. It doesn't define what a flag is nor what constitutes desecration. It's a 'catch all' place holder type of amendment meant for only one thing: REV UP THE BASE!



JOINT RESOLUTION

Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States authorizing Congress to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States.

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within 7 years after the date of its submission by the Congress:

`Article --

`The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States.'.

You know the proper way to "retire" an American flag?

If you said, "burn it", You WIN!

Republicans show their total ignorance of things, when they propose laws like this. Hillary should STFU about it too.

a symbolic representation of what this country is supposed to represent. If it no longer represents the doctrines, like the Constitution, the Bill of Rights; then, what does it symbolize? Remember Germany had very strict laws against desecrating their nazi flag. Do we go the way of Germany? And, doesn't a law protect the flag being used for commercial use? Isn't it more of a desecration of the flag to see it on cars being sold, on items being sold? See this flag--buy this and you'll be patriotic. And how about those Chinese made flags that were flying on vehicles after 9/11? I still see some, but fewer. I've seen cars go flying by with those flags attached to their vehicles, tattered, dirty, oil stained flags--isn't that a desecration of the flag? And, do they hit a light on their car at night so that their made-in China flag is always lit or do they take it in the house? For if the flag is displayed at night, it must have a light illuminating it. Bullocks!!!! I say---bullocks!!! These moronic attempts to change the Constitution-gay marriage, flag burning-are getting irritating!!!

burn one everyday until he leaves office. Would I get arrested now?

still burn Confederate flags? :)

You might find a cross burning on your front lawn in the morning. :-)