Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

You know, another Wes Clark campaign will be pretty interesting....

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 04:45 PM
Original message
You know, another Wes Clark campaign will be pretty interesting....
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 04:51 PM by Wetzelbill
I didn't vote for the General, and I most likely wouldn't in a primary, but I have always been a big fan. He's a genuinely intelligent guy, fascinating to listen to talk about foreign policy in particular. A few years ago he was definitely a political newcomer, I don't know how much it showed or not, but I always felt he never fully got into his groove. But since the '04 election, he seems to be much more into his element and hitting his stride as a political figure.

I heard he stood up and gave a half hour speech recently basically off the top of his head. Now that isn't all that significant because Wes Clark could probably give a several hour foreign policy lecture series in his sleep, let alone talk for half an hour about it. Well, it wasn't about FP or anything like that. He spoke about science. I just find that interesting that Clark would take something like that on. His strengths as a politician basically stem from him being a General and a foreign policy expert, in a time when we are at war and facing major FP challenges. So it is good to see Clark isn't just relying on that background but fully branching out and learning intricate issues such as science.

You know, I think just about anybody can skate by on the party line or the status quo consesus if they want to. Wes Clark could simply concentrate on his FP credentials, and his background teaching economics and basically rehash talking points on everything else. However, he has always struck me as a curious man and a viable intellectual. Throw in the idea that he is no longer a political rookie and his potential candidacy gets even more interesting. His learning curve is pretty spectacular, for sure, and he was impressive a few years ago, so I would think he'll only continue to get better and better at this stuff.

He's definitely a guy worth watching and listening to.

My bad I meant to include a link of the speech.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/16/65024/5963
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JHH Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why wouldn't you vote for him in a primary?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. last time I voted for Kucinich
I would probably vote for a similar type candidate pretty much every time. Like a Feingold or someone like that. I vote for the candidate who fits my own views the best and that usually tends to be the most progressive candidate in the group. Now, typically, I like a lot that every candidate says, I really do not buy into some of the big wars people will get into. Just because I preferred DK didn't mean that John Kerry, Howard Dean, John Edwards or Clark didn't interest me or have my respect either, you know? I'm a Wes Clark fan, I respect him, listen to him and admire him, and if I happen to vote for somebody else, well that still doesn't change my opinion of the guy. And, I do think he would make a great president and would be happy and proud to vote for him in a GE anytime. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I voted for Kucinich last time too.
I would have voted for Clark, but he was long gone from the race by that time. :(

We had caucuses in my state, so I got to be a delegate for him all the way up to the state convention. That was alot of fun. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. yeah Arizona is still early
enough where most of the candidates are still in. I stuck with DK for quite a while. He was my guy for about 9 months before the primary even came around. I still weighed all the candidates though, read up quite a bit on them all and so on. Nobody quite convinced me to vote otherwise, but I still respected them all.

I bet being a delegate was fun. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melnjones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. amen. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. Hey Mel
only one more post to go and you'll be at 1000.:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merci_me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. At one time he wanted to be a physicist
and he was #1 in his physics class at West Point. He has a true love of science. BTW, he also has a degree in economics and speaks four languages. His background is fascinating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. He also has a good understanding of the Age of Enlightenment and
it's impacts on our founding documents. The importance of using trial and error, free debate and real hard scientific facts as the basis for any decision. He knows were were founded by free thinkers and those who made decisions based on reason and NOT religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think one of his biggest appeals to me was intellectual.
I come from a family of PhD scientists, so I'm familiar with the kind of mind he has. He just always seemed to speak so intelligently and with such a depth of understanding and intellectual curiosity about everything while doing so in such a way that the average person could relate.

I know many critics of "the Clarkies" contend that it was the "shiny medals" that attracted us, but for me, it really was the mind.

He has said that at one point he considered becoming a theoretical physicist and I could definitely see it.:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. definitely
I was wary of him at first, I am about everyone nutty enough to want to be president, haha, but the more I learned about the guy the more interested I got. Then I read some of his stuff, and he is just flat out impressive. He's actually not an easy read. It's not like picking up an op-ed or something, Clark writes like a serious intellectual. He's a thinker and innovative too. So it is a challenge to read his stuff and try to keep up with him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not a surprise if you know Clark's Bio.
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 05:19 PM by dogman
As a youth he wanted to be an astronaut. He calls Physics a hobby. Some of his first investment interests have been related to energy conservation. He has received an Audubon award for saving a bird species from a military base construction project and was endorsed for President by former-Senator Gaylord Nelson, considered by many to be the founder of Earth Day. He was first in his class at West Point in many subjects. He has also taught philosophy and economics. He is truly a Renaissance Man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I knew most of that
didn't know he wanted to be an astronaut or the energy conservation though.

Yes, in 2003, I really became fascinated with some of the stuff that he would put on his campaign website. His more intellectual writings and so forth. Brilliant guy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yeah, the man truly has a zest for life and it spills over as curiosity
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 05:20 PM by Ilsa
about almost everything. Too bad the current occupant is happy with his safe and narrow view of the world.

It'll be a pleasure for me to work on the Clark campaign again if he will decide to run again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. yeah Bush
the Anti-Clark. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wes and Al Gore are the two strongest Dems we have on our
side, imo. I know others will differ. But these two just make me so proud. :loveya: :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I am not sure if they are the strongest or not
but they sure do make me proud too. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. The guy's got a hell of a lot to offer.
I think McCain might be able to keep up with him, but not beat him, in a debate, and against the rest of the pack of GOP cretins and phonies, I think Wes Clark would just clean up.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. McCain has lost his sparkle, his speeches have become
way too scripted. He has changed from his Straight Talk Express days. Just don't think he will be the candidate. Maybe Alan from Virginia(?). I feel about him like the repubs feel about Hillary, hope he wins the nomination as I think he's a loser in a real fight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
45. I think all of our people are loads better than George Allen. That guy
is thick as brick.

You may be right about John McCain. I'm so appalled by his long-time voting record I can't tell if I'm bored with his speeches because I distrust him or because the speeches are over-engineered nowadays.

Yep -- the Straight Talk Express hasn't pulled into the station for a long time now...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. His campaign got started so much later than the others in 2004...
It would be nice to see how he would do if given the same time frame for campaigning as the other primary candidates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. I like him.
A lot. I think he is one of the best resources the democrats have. It would be interesting if he runs again. I think that he could add to any ticket in '08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. He is one Dem. that no doubt could dip into the Repub. pot
and get some votes. Repubs like the military, and he certainly knows the politics of diplomacy when it comes to dealing with foreign countries. He came from a humble beginning and many voters are probably ready for someone to lead us that hasn't been fed into the system by the money/corporate crowd for generations. That was one of Clinton's high points, except for the repubs in high places who felt insulted that someone so lowly could become president.

Besides, Gert makes a terrific partner for this adventure, personable, smart and appears sincere.

Still have Feingold in my sights too. The powerful in D.C. will let us know sometime after Nov. elections who will be our nominee tho. Too bad but money talks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. He's always been at the top of my list
Spend some time learning about him and I'll bet you will come away VERY impressed!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
21. He wont have Dean questioning weather he is a Democrat this time either
He proved that he is a true blue Democrat and anyone who was not sure about what his political leanings were two years ago will know for sure this time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I'm pretty sure Kerry's and Edwards' campaigns used that issue too.
Not to leave Dean standing alone on that one is all.

It will clearly not be an issue if there's a next time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. You are right. I hardly remember those guys bringing it up
but I now that you mention it, that attack came from all sides especially when he was the front runner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Kerry's definitely did.
I still have pictures on my computer from a Kerry campaign leaflet that are too vile even to post here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
57. Given that Clark was one of the people who
spoke to reporters saying Kerry's campaign would implode over the intern story, he has no room to speak. Dean, Kerry et al questioned Clark AFTER the media disclosed tape of him praising W (before 911). It was a valid question. I agree that in 2008 it will not be a valid issue - as said he is very clearly a Democrat.

I have no idea what you are speaking about in terms of campaign literature. It wasn't in the literature I saw - though I saw the stuff you got when you contributed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I've seen it too, but I have long since moved on
There are lots of murky charges and counter charges from that period, as is almost always the case from intensely contested primaries. Kerry's New Hampshire Chair blasted Clark over having voted for Reagan until she was confronted with her prior statements that she had voted for Reagan also. Politics. Kerry and Clark fought well together as a team after Clark dropped out of the race, all the way through the General Election in November. That's what counts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. A smart, curious, intellectual man. Just like our current prez...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
24. Gen. Wes has such a broad background and considering that
Bushco has wrecked nearly everthing, we need someone who knows a lot, want to learn more, and likes to solve problems. Wes Clark is really a gift to this party that shouldn't be overlooked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
27. Partly that's the professor in him coming out. Classroom teachers CAN gab.
He's a genuine intellectual. I do regret that the fact that he wore his country's uniform is such a turn off to so many liberals. But I don't think I've ever seen a politician in my lifetime so directly and forcefully apply the lessons of history to proposing and developing public policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
28. I'd be fascinated to listen to his FP views as well
particularly those which defend the SOA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I doubt that you would ever find any candidate pure enough
to meet your exacting standards. I don't agree with all of Clark's positions, but the truth is that there is not a single potential presidential candidate who hasn't expressed some positions I disagree with.

If there's anybody out there that can meet your standards I'd be curious to know about it. I'd bet that there's not anybody that you couldn't dig up some dirt on and then blow it up into something huge and exagerated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. and I doubt you know anything about me or my views
For the record I don't expect candidates to be "pure" defending the use of aggression to "teach" other nations US values is not a small thing. It is something I find morally repugnant so no I wouldn't support him were I an American citizen, I would however have supported Kucinich even though I disagree with him on many issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I probably know more about you and your views
than you think I do.

It's true, Kucinich has very pure views concerning FP. I won't go into the positions he's taken on reproductive freedoms since I don't care to degrade the level of discourse in this otherwise very civilized thread. Plus, I actually voted for Kucinich and was a delegate for him in my state, so I have a soft spot for him, despite finding some of his positions quite unsavory.

I won't say anymore, since I don't wish to feed into your attempts to sow divisiveness in this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. You know nothing about me or my views
and I find your insistence that you do unbelievably arrogant and presumptive, but hey it's a free world.

Also I said I didn't agree with Kucinich on everything didn't I? However on balance (given there is no-one that represents my views completely) I would have picked him as my priorities are international human rights and labor rights (BTW what are Wes Clark's view on labor??)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Okay, so maybe you invent things about yourself and your views
on other message boards.:shrug:

I'm not going to try to have a discussion with you about Clark's views since you are here to bash and to disrupt an otherwise civil thread. I'm not going to play that game with you. Sorry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. no I don't
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 02:04 AM by Djinn
how 'bout you tell me what other boards you think you know me from, to my knowledge there aren't any Clark fans on either of the unmentionables I post at (there's only one where I use the same username btw) and I certainly havn't ever noticed your input anywhere.

I certainly havn't seen you defend Clark on that one board where I use this name, why would that be?

Nice to know I made an impression on you though coz as I said you're posts have never made a blip on my radar until now.

As for game playing - it's a discussion board, no-one is forcing you to discuss anything with me, this isn't disruption it a statement of why I find Wes Clark not to my liking, if you don't want to hear any opposing views I'm sure there are Clark only boards out there. I didn't ask you to respond to me, you chose to, I chose to respond in kind, whether you want to continue is entirely up to you and matters not at all to me.

Or of course you could try and debunk what I've said, if you think that's possible? or you could even say that despite his obvious support for US imperialism that you still support him based on other factors, that isn't wrong but it'd help if you didn't pretend this was a fact about Clark.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Swiftboat much?
55 U.S. Ambassadors and Diplomats endorsed Clark. http://clark04.com/press/release/221/

His FP views are well-documented and he never defended the SOA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. irrelevant much In 1997,
So what if 55 ambassadors and Diplomats endorsed Clark, what on earth does that have to do with anything?

Yes he did defend the SOA REPEATEDLY

In 1997, as commander in chief of the US Southern Command, Clark praised the school before the Senate Armed Services Committee, saying its mission had changed since the Cold War days. "This school is the best means available to ensure that the armed forces in Latin America and the armies in Latin America understand US values and adopt those values as their own," Clark said at the time.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0117-01.htm

I do not support American imperilaism, Clark DOES. The SOA also did not "train" any military personnel who did not belong to vicious right wing militaries. Just as I oppose my taxes being used to "train" Kopassus I oppose the use of US tax dollars to "train" brutal right wing death squads.

In New Hamspshire and Wisconsin, Clark has defended the school to questioners. "We are teaching police and military people from Latin America human rights," he said last week in Concord. "And if we didn't bring them in and teach them human rights, they wouldn't be able to learn human rights anywhere."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0117-01.htm

Human Rights??? if I hadn't met some survivors of that "human rights" training and heard what they went through I may find that statement laughable, instead it simply sickens me. Wes Clark is an intelligent man with many years military experience he knows fine well that the SOA had NOTHING to do with human rights.

"He's on the board. He'll be happy to take you down there," Clark told the woman who questioned him in Concord. "If you find anything in that curriculum material or anything that's taught there that looks in any way remotely connected with human rights abuse or torture, you let me know, and I promise you, we'll close the School of the Americas when I'm president," he said.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0117-01.htm

Certain parts of the cirriculum have been publsihed and do indeed promote the use of torture, very explicity and repeatatively, they barely mention human rights however, this is indisputable and I can only assume Clark takes his audience as fools who are unable to read. The manuals are available to read I suggest you do so.

It is unacceptable that some who passed through the School of the Americas (now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) committed human rights abuses. Those that did should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - as should all who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. In order to prevent such abuses from happening in the future, we must promote a policy of engagement and education with friends and allies in the region.

http://www.clark04.com/issues/soa/

Utterly disengenuous, the entire point of the operation (as patently stated by the manuals) was to destroy left wing and peasant resistance via the use of torture, oppresion, economic torture, and murder.

In 1996 shortly after the Pentagon's admission re torture manuals Clark went to the SOA to give a commencement address, do you think that was wise? would YOU speak at an organisation which has admitted to training torturers?

What else does Clark have to say about SOA

Clark isn't embarrassed about ties to the military installation - his campaign Web site features a commencement speech he delivered there a few years ago. "There is nothing going on in these institutions that you in the United States Congress wouldn't be extraordinarily proud of," Clark once testified to Congress

http://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=409

It goes on and on, only the ignorant or disengenuous could claim he does not/has not vigorously support the SOA

So he's saying he knew nothing (odd for a long term military man in possession of a decent intellect) or is he saying that torture and murder or men women and children is something to be proud of?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. Disingenuous?
Your post certainly is. Clark did not create the SOA, but he did reform it. The SOA has been repeatedly funded by a majority of Democratic leadership. The direction of the school comes from the top. The school. renamed under Clinton, has likely returned to it's old MO under the present corrupt leadership of our Country. There are many institutions that have done both bad and good, depending on the leadership directing them. Show us proof of criminal behavior taught and advocated by WHINSEC under Clark's direction. Of course Clark knew of the SOA and that is why it was re-instituted under Clinton. Criminals can be associated with a number of American institutions, does that mean those institutions promote that criminality?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Anyone who uses Common Dreams as a source has
automatically lost.

Sorry, but that site is a cesspool of un-proven myths - about nearly EVERYONE. That place hates Democrats as much as a Republican website.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. Wait a minute there - Does Wes Clark condone torture?
Certain parts of the cirriculum have been publsihed and do indeed promote the use of torture, very explicity and repeatatively, they barely mention human rights however, this is indisputable and I can only assume Clark takes his audience as fools who are unable to read. The manuals are available to read I suggest you do so.


During the Clinton administration, in September 1996, the Pentagon declassified SOA training manuals used between 1987 and 1991 - mind you, Clark was Commander-in-Chief of the Southern Command at that point for a couple of months and he served until September 1997, so we can place him in this story. Following an investigation, four months later, the Pentagon said it was a mistake to have used the old manuals between 1987 and 1991. Say those manuals were used throughout the 1990s, just for argument's sake: Who would have been responsible for Pentagon actions? Then as now, the Department of Defense and the Executive Branch - the civilians heading the government. You can ask Bill Clinton and Al Gore about this situation with more relevance than you can ask Wesley Clark, but not much more.

Because, let it be said right here and now, NONE of those training materials originated nor were they ever used in the Clinton/Gore years, including 1996-1997 when Clark headed Southcom.

Clark's commencement speech in late 1996, in which he quotes Simon Bolivar, does talk about human rights, about using the military for peacekeeping missions, using force only as self-defense, economic justice for the poor. Anyone who wants to read the speech in full the link is below. Wes Clark has never, ever in his life condoned torture. He publicly and immediately stood against Bushco over Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay and demanded a full investigation into policies that led to torture and other abuse of prisoners.

In fact, sign this petition. Not you, Djinn, because, God knows, you wouldn't want to sully your Clark-Hate creds on the DU-Hate boards. But anyone else who reads this, please put yourself on record with General Clark against torture and abuse of prisoners by BushCo.

http://ga4.org/campaign/prisonerabuse?

The commencement speech is here:

http://www.mediaprima.com/clark04/graduationspeech1996.html

Wherein Wes Clark promotes ... peace and prosperity for the American hemisphere :crazy:







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. Some points in reply
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 11:52 AM by Tom Rinaldo
First and foremost, within your many links and quotes you do include this comment by Clark:

"If you find anything in that curriculum material or anything that's taught there that looks in any way remotely connected with human rights abuse or torture, you let me know, and I promise you, we'll close the School of the Americas when I'm president," he said.

Has the United States ever had a President, Democrat or Republican, make a statement like that one? I don't think so, correct me if I am wrong. I would absolutely love having each and every Presidential candidate going on record with a statement like that one by Clark. It would either mean a commitment to real progress or it would be the hammer we needed to expose the hypocrisy of allowing torture techniques to be taught, if in fact they were continued to be allowed.

It is very dangerous to an honest discussion to not include specific time frames when referencing statements about activities at that School and the successor to it. We might just as well attempt to equate the policies of the U.S Justice Department under RFK with what was practiced under Nixon's John Mitchell, or equate the Justice Department under Janet Reno with the Justice Department under Alberto Gonzales. Same institution, different agenda, both overt and covert.

Since the modern era of the National Republican Party began under Nixon/Kissinger (as opposed to Republicans like Ike), the School of the Americas and the successor "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation" established in 2001, have been operated under Republican Administrations for 26 years compared to oversight by Democratic Administrations for 12 years, and that shows in it's record. You said above (about Clark):

"... Utterly disingenuous, the entire point of the operation (as patently stated by the manuals) was to destroy left wing and peasant resistance via the use of torture, oppression, economic torture, and murder.

In 1996 shortly after the Pentagon's admission re torture manuals Clark went to the SOA to give a commencement address, do you think that was wise? would YOU speak at an organization which has admitted to training torturers?"

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about those "torture manuals" and the timing involved in their use and exposure:

"The Torture manuals was a nickname for seven training manuals which had excerpts declassified to the public on September 20, 1996 by the Pentagon.

These manuals were prepared by the U.S. military and used between 1987 and 1991 for intelligence training courses at the U.S. Army School of the Americas (SOA). The manuals were also distributed by Special Forces Mobile Training teams to military personnel and intelligence schools in Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru. <1>"

The key points: The manuals were used between 1987 and 1991, under Republican Administrations. They were declassified in 1996, under a Democratic Administration. While your comments which I quote from are technically not untrue, they are very misleading in that they imply that Clark had knowledge that such manuals were in use in 1996 when he gave that commencement address, which is absolutely false. Their use was stopped by the time Clinton gained control of the Defense Department, five years prior.

Still you seem to imply, Why on Earth would General Clark speak at a commencement for such an institution? The answer is more simple than sinister; General Clark was briefly assigned to be Commander in Chief of the U.S. Southern Command, from June 1996 to July 1997, and during that period the S.O.A. fell under his overall command, as did hundreds of other facilities and institutions within the Southern Command. Clark's commencement address was given in 1996 during that exact period, commiserate with the responsibilities of Clark's post. Technically one can say a ten year old event happened a few years ago I suppose, which is how you phrased it, but usually "a few" means three to five years ago to most people, so I think it worth noting that Clark did not speak at that program during Bush's Administration.

Under Clinton's Administration efforts began to institute reforms to the institution, reforms that many now believe were inadequate, but Clark's short involvement with the S.O.A. was one supportive of human rights reforms at the institution, which was Congressionally mandated and Congressionally funded under military policies determined by Bill Clinton's Secretary of Defense, and Bill Clinton's appointed Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Far too many graduates of that program have been implicated in very serious anti human rights abuses and anti Democratic activities, but it is worth noting that the military in South America, prior to the commencement of the School of the Americas, already had a very long and very deep history of repeated serious anti human rights abuses and anti-Democratic activities. This did not originate with the S.O.A. Batista and Somoza and a host of others clearly predated the S.O.A. By the early 1960's a pattern or repeated military coups and repressive juntas was the norm, not the exception, in most South American nations. A primary official stated rational for the S.O.A. was to further the American model of military respect for civilian constitutional rule, and progress has occurred in Central and South America over the last few decades in that regard, whether or not any credit can be given to the S.O.A., despite serious abuses by some graduates of that program.

Again, I think it is noteworthy to consider that Republicans have controlled operations of that program for 26 out of the last 38 years. Look at any agency of government. The Environmental Protection Agency under George W. Bush as compared to under Bill Clinton never changed it's stated official mission, but many of us feel that Clinton's EPA actually worked to protect the environment while Bush's EPA far too frequently works to enable the polluters. Same thing for the FBI or CIA. There are many powerful forces represented inside America's ongoing government, many of which don't make me proud to be an American, but we can not make them go away with the stroke of a pen. We can not abolish those powerful interests by act of Congress. Congress abolished legal intervention in Nicaragua during Reagan's Administration, so Reagan simply set up his own illegal operation, using Ollie North, to get around that. If we cut off funding for the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation via a Democratic Congress in 2007, a Bush/Cheney Administration will find the means they need to keep pursuing their covert agenda. Direct aid to South American Death Squads in the 70's and 80's was coordinated by the CIA and other secret special Ops units, not run by the SOA (which of course does NOT CONDONE torture having been taught there under Reagan and Bush One).

My personal position is that I want the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation closed down regardless of how clean their official curriculum is now or becomes later. There has been far too much water under that bridge, a clear message being sent by shutting it down now would be a very positive and important message to send. But Wes Clark is not the bogey man in this story. Democratic majorities in Congress kept voting to refund the S.O.A. through out all of its worse years. On paper it's mission may well be a positive one. I am willing to believe that many of the people who have participated in that program, in one way or another, believed in the stated open, rather than degraded covert, mission of that program. I just hate it when the politicians sitting in Congress, who actually have the power to start and end programs like the SOA, men and women on both sides of the aisle, are given a free pass on moral responsibility for their actions in voting to appropriate operating funds for it. Meanwhile someone like Wes Clark, who had no power to either continue or shut it down, who actually took steps while serving under Clinton to help clean up the program, keep getting all the blame for it. Wes Clark repeatedly and forcefully argues against the torture policies of Bush's regime. He stands up for the Geneva accords, and America's obligations under international law, all of which has been pointed out above.

I repeat, it would please me no end to have all those seeking to become President minimally make a statement like the one you quoted from Clark:

"If you find anything in that curriculum material or anything that's taught there that looks in any way remotely connected with human rights abuse or torture, you let me know, and I promise you, we'll close the School of the Americas when I'm president".

If Clark gets elected I will gladly join with you in holding him accountable to that statement.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I'm pretty sure, Tom
That Kerry voted to close the school or stop funding a few years before he ran in 2003, and Feingold, also, so I think we can accept that they would indeed close it. I don't know their voting history over the years, decades, but lately they are in the close the school column for sure. Of the 2003 candidates, I remember Kucinich saying he would close it. I wouldn't object to the school being closed, and nobody finds its legacy something to defend. But I'm not convinced it wouldn't just be started again under another guise, as it was transmuted into WHINSEC, only less publicly and with less oversight. Right now Senator Levin, I believe, does oversee the school. I would hate to see Congressional oversight cut off, which could easily happen if it went underground. Also, if such a school truly did have an honorable curriculum, about which I don't know any more than anybody else does at this stage, it's not such a bad thing. Torture instruction is never acceptable, it goes without saying, but I think it's pretty naive of anyone to think the US has a damned thing to teach most countries in the world anything on the subject. They all have their own sordid histories and highly trained and experienced experts. But an international school for forces from different countries that truly focuses on human rights is something I for one would welcome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Regarding Democrats and WHINSEC (Son of SOA).
I have no doubt that a number of Democrats would now close the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation if they become President. They said so and I believe them, but no Democratic President we've had to date chose to, and SOA was around for over 50 years. It was the Clinton/Gore Administration that rescued the SOA from actually being shut down, by first reforming it and then transforming it into WHINSEC. Wes Clark is not the only good Democrat who has had some type of association with this program, and I get tired when only he gets tarred by that association, despite Clark's positive contributions and clear stands against torture and in favor of international law. Al Gore toured the SOA in 1998 and promised a protester there then; "I'll take your message to Washington", still the Democratic Administration he was such a large part of continued to support the program until they left office:

Solidaridad
Bimonthly Newsletter of the Latin American Information Centre (LAIC)
Year XI. Number 1. March/April 1998

"...Meanwhile in the U.S., Ms Harbury was arrested on March 2nd during a
protest at the School of the Americas (SOA) in Fort Benning, Georgia.
Human rights activists have been working to shut down the school
which is known for training Latin American military officers in
counter-insurgency tactics, including psychological and physical
torture. U.S. Vice President Gore was touring the SOA facilities at
the time of the protest. Ms Harbury told him that her husband had
been tortured and killed by five officers trained at the school.
'I'll take your message to Washington,' Gore responded.
Ms Harbury was released later the same day."
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/latinamerican/laics/soli1_98.html

And what about Jack Murtha? Anti-Iraq War Democratic Activists rightfully honor and appreciate Congressman Jack Murtha as a truth to power Democrat with moral courage who stands up for his convictions, and two weeks ago Murtha was among the Democrats in the House of Representatives who voted in favor of continuing funding for the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (Son of SOA). No one is going around calling Jack Murtha an Imperialist Tool Rethug. Lots of Democrats may disagree with Murtha on this one, including grassroots activists, but that doesn't mean they doubt his personal integrity. They don't say he condones or advocates torture, and no one is trying to disown him over his support of the WHINSEC.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll243.xml


I really do fear that everything ugly that the current Administration hopes to accomplish with this program will simply go on elsewhere without Congressional oversight when funding gets cut off. Laws mean nothing if the people in charge of enforcing those laws make "signing statements" saying they can ignore them, or write legal memos explaining how to get around them, like Bush and Gonzales do. Just something else to worry about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. And Max Cleland
Another honorable Dem who supported the school or another Imperialist Tool Rethug?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Thank you, Djinn
for bring up the SOA. How anyone (that claims to be democratic) can support a supporter of the SOA, is something my brain can not comprehend.

In addition, Clark claims that depleted uranium does not cause cancers, birth defects etc. and is perfectly harmless.

It might make a little sense if he was to run on the repug ticket.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
46. I would be fascinating if you would ask
Every member of Congress who ever voted to continue funding the SOA what they think. You know, for a change :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
30. He is the only candidate who had the courage to do The (gay) Advocate
cover photo and also has the capacity to appeal to "salt of the earth" middle America "Eisenhower" republican types. Take a look at the February 3, 2004 issue of The Advocate at http://www.advocate.com/ to see what I am referring to, if you haven't seen the article and cover. (Unfortunately there is no direct link possible.) His willingness to be a "cover boy" for equal rights during a campaign when nearly all the other "Democratic" candidates were parsing their words and being as vague as possible made me take a second look, and as a result of this and other positions he had taken, I stood for him in my precinct caucus.

I still think he is America's best hope, not as a savior or a revolutionary who will put those monsters in their proper place, but just as a decent, honest man who will try to serve the common good and avert catastrophe. When he tries to do that, he will discover that those serving the corporatist agenda are absolutely ruthless. I think he will be able to build a populist base to take on the Golems, and have the understanding, insight and wisdom to fight effectively. I hope so, anyway. He might even get radicalized by the conflict he encounters and actually get to the roots of it, and make a real difference. That's a bit of a fantasy, but at the very least I think he would try to serve the common good, and that is pretty close to being a revolutionary these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. In fairness to the others, not doing an Advocate cover doesn't mean
they didn't have the courage to do it.

Clark and his team "scored" the Advocate piece. That doesn't mean the other candidates refused to do it.

It was his status as a military leader that made that publication so unique and relevent. It was a very important step and a great nod to the LGBT community.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. Maybe.
It is just speculation about who else 'might' have had the integrity and guts. But with Kerry's cautious 'strategy' it seems pretty certain he would have refused. And my impression, for what it is worth, from watching Clark's interviews on the subject was that it represented a part of his core beliefs, and went far deeper than a 'nod' to a certain potential constituency. Who can tell, but that was my reading, and very few candidates gave me that impression. Kucinich, of course, Gore today, Robert Kennedy in his day, Gene McCarthy.... Not a lot among the current field.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. I agree, Toucano
It was the 4-Star General doing it that made it maybe more meaningful, but it didn't imply anything about the other candidates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
41. Here's a better link to the full text of his science speech.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
48. Clark on Science and Faith
Some favorite parts of the speech. Although not religious myself, I find his push on science and faith fascinating stuff, from a political angle, and also his call for scientists to take part in fighting the "Republican War on Science," ie become political, if they want to salvage scientific integrity.

What particularly worries me is the conflict that's out there between faith and reason, between faith and science. There's nothing new about this conflict. It's as old as Christianity and even older. It's always been there as men sought to reason their way into an understanding of the world around us, and women sought to reason their way into an understanding of the world around us, and others sought to prevent it.

-snip

I believe every man and woman should be free to choose to worship God or not to worship God, and if they choose to worship God, to worship God in any way they choose. And you can't mix the authority of the United States of America and our government with the religious persuasions that people choose in their heart and in their conscience, and when you do, it's wrong. In the United States Armed Forces, those of us who are officers wear US on the collar. That chain of command goes all the way down to the bottom. And if there's anybody out there telling one of our people they're going to hell, because they don't have a particular religious belief, I'm sorry, that guy's going to jail if I have anything to say about it.

-snip

I think this is an artificial, manufactured crisis. It's designed by some in authority to maintain authority over spheres in which they are not competent. I believe there are incredible mysteries in the universe, mysteries that the mind of man doesn't understand and may never understand. And I see in no way in which the advancement of science and the pursuit of knowledge by mankind is in any way threatening to the idea of a supreme being or a greater creator.

-snip

There is incredible mystery out there, and what I believe is that God did create us and put us on this earth to use what he gave us, which is our imagination, our intelligence, our hands, our minds, our ears to study, to learn, to create, and we must do that. We must do it, because it's in out nature as human beings to push beyond the frontier, to ask the impossible questions. We can't be any other way. We're no different than our ancestors a thousand generations ago who gnawed on the bone of the woolly mammoth, threw it into the fire, stumbled out of the cave, laid on their back and looked up at the stars and said, 'What are those specks of light?' And I think that we're closer and closer to finding out, and I think that's our destiny, and I think God wants it that way.

-snip

And you've got to help us put this together into a new national strategy of competitiveness, because there are big problems ahead for this country if we don't create a new national strategy of investing in our young people in science and technology. We simply have to do it, and we need your support and your leadership to make it happen. We can do it. We can take this country forward again. We can create a new Golden Age of innovation and science and technology in America.

There are whole worlds of knowledge waiting to be discovered in nano-science, in human science, in physics, in material science and in all of the applications that can make life better and safer and more convenient for all of us, but only if we open our eyes, only if we acknowledge the reality of the condition we're in, only if we beat back the challenges that come from well-meaning people of faith who argue against the very kind of exploration that God gave us the power to do. We have to take back our world and advance the frontiers of knowledge. That is our destiny. That's why you're here at this panel. And now that we're talking about it, we're going to get a lot more information out. We expect you all to get out and help us do it. This is about action, not just talk.



Back in 2003, I was especially proud of Clark's platform calling for science, engineering and technology to be brought back to prominence in a national goals program. His economic thinking is very complex, but this was a huge part of it. It would be in 2008, as well, obviously, and I believe people of faith, particularly in red states, could hear this message in a way Democrats largely have been unable to present it in a long time.







Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
50. Yeah, Waiting Till The 2008 Campaign Is Hell
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 09:13 AM by Dinger
July 2007 is a lONG way way!:-(


P.S. (On edit: Yay!!!! I made the 50th post!!:patriot: (Note the "Wes Clark Smiley.")
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
52. Clark is a good man and a great patriot.....
considering his intellect and the fact that he is not a career politician......and since war and peace, security and the MIC are subjects that have been at top of the news for the past five years, Wes Clark certainly should be a candidate in 2008....alongside those who have no experience in the areas of War and Peace.

For Democrats, A Clark nominee would strategically make the most sense and totally confuse the GOP. They, the Repugs, really wouldn't know what to do with this phenomenon! Even a "Terrar incident" or the capture or death of a key Terrarist wouldn't affect Democrats with Clark as our nominee....in the 11th hour October surprise.

Repugs certainly would much prefer a different democratic candidate with no experience in the issues they are perceived strongest in...because it will be most easy to "manipulate" events to win them the vote.

So we'll see then how badly Democrats want to really restore democracy to this land.....in 2008!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
53. Nice observation....
Clark has intelligence to get into science issues and deal with them. You're right he could just humm a few bars of dem party line stuff but I think he takes this politics stuff pretty seriously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
55. Wes Clark is
the absolute best the Democratic Party has to offer. If he runs, he`ll have my vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC