Why have DU members ignored the Union forum?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=367

Why aren't the members more involved in unions or spreading the influence of unions anymore? Is it selfishness? Ignorance ot the importance of Unions? The propaganda spread by the Repukes?

Why?

forums that are not so well-known to some of us. I just posted on the UAW under GD, not realizing there was a union forum.

David Swanson articles and the AAR "working it" show data and the union articles that I and others post in GD should all be showing up in the Union group.

It's not a "forum", it's a "group", so it's going to get a lot less posts and a lot less replies, and a lot less "recommends", so those posts will drop out of sight very quickly.

the problem. Also, union membership is quite low, thus few of us are probably members, although I was at one time and my son is a member now.

They have tried to weaken or destroy every Union in America. Union membership is declining as fast as the temperature is rising. The Repuklikkkan governors are instituting "right to work" states meaning no unions. Business KNOW that the employment situation is desperate for tens of thousands, so they can pay low wages and block the Unions. Loss of manufacturing jobs means loss of Union influence. Independent truckers balk at the corrupt past of the Teamsters. and on and on.

<snip>The shift to service industry employment, where unions traditionally have been weaker, also has been a serious problem for labor unions. Women, young people, temporary and part-time workers -- all less receptive to union membership -- hold a large proportion of the new jobs created in recent years. And much American industry has migrated to the southern and western parts of the United States, regions that have a weaker union tradition than do the northern or the eastern regions.<snip>

http://economics.about.com/od/laborinamerica/a/union_decline.htm

And all the young know-it-alls think all a Union means is paying dues.

How wrong they are. If Unions die, labor and the protections Unions fight for are gone.

...and I'm a retiree of a company that "...was founded in 1925 with initial funding from the American Federation of Labor." Now that I know, I will check in from time to time.

Labor has gotten a bad rap. The Democrats need us to get our act together as part of the Democrats getting themselves back together and on focus.

I've added it to "my forums" now that I know about it.

There was a DUer here in GD just the other day that said he's a Union print shop. I hope he gets into that forum too...

Regards!


Laura

Union Yes.:bounce:

So many my age, mid-fifties. Parts, distribution, powertrains, all aging quickly. So few young people entering into automobile manufacturing as a career. The craft (and it IS a craft still) will be badly short of qualified workers within the decade. And they will do their best to break the unions. Then low -cost illegal workers will begin building YOUR cars, at ALL of the maker's plants. It is what they want. Low cost high profit at the expense of the Unions.

We will do our best to bring Union into the discussion again here. It is our lifeblood. Plumbers, electricians, contractors, bricklayers, steelworkers, transportation, all need the protection of the unions. And we'll keep everyone here posted to their trials and tribulations

1. Didn't know it existed.

2. Can't post in any DU group, as I ran out of money for a star.

3. Unemployed, will probably never be employed again, worked in an industry never protected by a union, so have nothing to contribute anyway.

You are no less important than the oldest highest posting member on DU.

But I still can't post in DU groups. The day somebody founds the IULOSVGWEARCASMPRNLADUS (International Union of Laid-Off Silicon Valley Geeks Who've Exhausted All Resources and Can't Afford So Much as a Packet of Ramen Noodles Let Alone a DU Star), and pays my dues for me, then maybe I can join you. LOL

The only thing I can say of value is that if it weren't for the IBEW, my mom (85 this coming Saturday, and still working for the insurance) would be at the mercy of the state for her healthcare.

I wasn't begging for a star -- just feeling sorry for myself, and complaining about it. It happens when you plummet from comfortable to poor, and you don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

So, if you ever need a good example of what happens to somebody who really needed a union in an industry (I.T.) that's been talking about it for years, but never organized, use me.

and not the poor working class. If we were poor working class, we'd be working and
maybe not be educated so well to be writing online as such.

The internet generation is dominated by the technology professions that are distinctly
middle and upper middle class, and all the information enabled professions that similarly
are upper and middle class.

The elite classes have been econoimically specialized and have not needed unions to
protect their livings... It may take a while for the recogniation to set in, that there
is no longer any job that cannot be outsourced, and no knowledge worker, however smart, has
any foothold at all. But until then, unions what?

Well, I'm retired but I am very pro-labor. I'll drop by to read. I don't think I have much to contribute though.

So sad, we want people to participate in the Union group, but as with the union, you have to pay to participate.

:kick:

:shrug:

I think they did a good thing when they were started, and then became a way for people to view themselves as "entitled" to perks they didn't earn (being a ranking member = not bothering to go to work), and a way for criminal enterprises to funnel money into their own greedy corrupt pockets. Also, the unions don't police their own members for being "good workers", etc., and simply do knee jerk protection of people who don't deserve it (specifically, the guy who is out in the parking lot doing drugs before coming into the shop to operate equipment that is dangerous for not just himself, but everyone around him).

I believe the same thing happened with "guilds" in the middle ages -- they became less about "getting a fair deal" and more about "getting more than the other guy" and protecting themselves from competition, regardless of the quality of goods they produced.

Unions strike me as being less about "being fair" than about "being popular" like a bad high school click that just doesn't go away.

I can support them IN PRINCIPAL, but my father-in-law (the retired Teamster), my (deceased) father (the salaried GM investigator who had to deal with criminal behavior every day for thirty years, with union reps gaming the system for certain people), my uncle-in-law (the plant maintenance guy who got threatened because he was actually working instead of hiding and playing cards), my brother (the dock foreman who has to deal with periodic power plays by "new" reps) have *never* given me a good impression of the folks who actually play "union games." Oh, and that doesn't include my own personal experience with "don't touch that -- we can't do any work until somebody else comes along and moves that box" type of instances.

:shrug:

They arose in response to the unconscionable treatment of workers by those who invented the word entitlement, the filthy rich. Which is to say, their only real role is as a remedy. No, they are not a cure. I have been a Teamster my entire working life and have always been satisfied by the representation afforded me by my local, but I'm sure some horror stories exist. I am unaware, however, of any other remedy. Are you seriously suggesting that we workers should just rely on the benevolence of the corporate class for our employment security? Do your anecdotal stories of union malfeasance in any way measure up to the stories of collusion and corruption and betrayal that are playing out in board rooms across our country on a daily basis? For my part, I'll settle for an imperfect solution over no solution any time.

go represent his local in a big meeting out of state. He was supposed to argue on behalf of a specific grievance, and according to him, the gentleman in question had a legitimate case. He went to the hotel room where folks told him to meet, and there were a bunch of "women who were not wives" partying with the other representatives. My father-in-law had driven on no sleep for two days to get to the meeting, and after making polite talk for a little bit, told them he was going to get some sleep for his "big day" in the morning, and that he was nervous because he'd never done such a thing before.

"Don't worry," said one of the big wigs. "We traded that one away for something else."

He's never forgotten, and he's NEVER forgiven. Who can blame him, when that level of corruption appears to be endemic?

My father used to tell me stories like you wouldn't believe -- my favorite was the guy who he videotaped mowing his lawn while he was supposedly at work. He had other people punching him in. He wasn't fired, because they traded him keeping his job against parking lot lights (meaning the company didn't have to install them, as long as this guy got to keep his job).

I live in the Detroit area (aka, automotive capital of the world), and a good portion of my career has been with the auto industry. You can't shake a stick without meeting other people who make a living thanks to automotive in this area -- and "corrupt union" stories are considered "common sense" around here.

That doesn't make management the winner, but the unions have worked hard to earn their reputations by not policing themselves.

And since you think corruption is exclusive to Unions, may I introduce you to the Bush Administration.:sarcasm:

And I don't have to like that it happens in either.

Would you please start a thread in the Union Group about that?

I don't know much about them. They wouldn't stand a chance of forming my area and I couldn't contribute much to the forum.

Sad reasons, for sure, but the truth.

Click on the AFL-CIO link in my sig line, you will see the influence they have and how they try to stop the abuse of workers.

but I'd rather discuss things in the general population. Also, I don't have a star.

I will make an effort to do so . I'm in a Union now .

I haven't because they never did me any good and did harm to some I knew. I had a short exchange with another member about it back in early may which explains it well enough, started with this post. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1131272&mesg_id=1131774

I'd love to be able to support them but as long as I think they hurt the poor I really can't. I'm not against them, but not for them either. It has to be about more than just their members to earn that. I'd love to see them fixed though, regain some connection with people who aren't members. They need to change for that though.

could you explain that to me?

it's not quite as simple as that and it's not a single experience, it's ones I lived and others I saw. And I'm not bashing them, they serve their members well enough. Just not non-members as well in the recent past and that's what cost them some support. That was explained in the set of posts I linked to if you'd read it.

There was a time when they were about lifting everyone but somewhere along the line that changed more to serving their own and that's been claimed often enough by the members themselves as the reason the unions are there. Now if my intent was to just bash them I probably wouldn't have started with the idea that I'd love to see them fixed and offered an area to work on. If they depend on public support they need to be worth something to non-members as well. The push for a higher minimum wage is a decent step toward that.

You stated you had a bad experience)s) with Unions. Point taken. I posted this thread to bring attention to the Union group. If you want to argue your point, take it there, we will reply.

Nothing to argue, wouldn't be constructive. People can point out things to work on but saying it again isn't going to make it more likely to happen, that's more up to you guys. I don't agree with the talking point that it's just union bashers that have caused problems for unions and don't have a problem pointing that out, but believe it or not I'd like to see them earn the respect they used to have rather than go away. They need to connect with more than just their members, they used to.

to check through the forums. I am a retired member of the NALC.

I know some historical stuff and I'm grateful for the things gained, but there seemed to come a point where unions got in the way.

The union in my own profession for example, would like all of us to get the same raises which is rediculous since not all of us achieve the same during the year. As a result, I am against unionizing my place of work.

To tell you the truth, though, I didn't even know we had one.

"You Could Be Fired For Reading This Book: Protect Your Employment Rights," by Glenn Solomon (2004; Berret-Koehler Publishers, Inc.).

Scary shit in there, especially if you start reading it from the mental place I did--ie; knowing a little about what the "at will" concept means, but never having had it spelled out for you in plain English, namely: "Not Union? You have no protection." It's a great book. Written by a Portland attorney, no less, so all of my fellow Oregonians who read it can be horrified that each and every single story of termination in the book came from Mr. Solomon's personal experiences in employment law, right here in the Beaver State. Where the average employer is a sociopath--complete with the murderous rage and everything. If every DUer who needs the education had read it, the Union forum would be one of the most popular groups here.

the reminder. I tend to read DU:GD about 99% of the time I am here. I also go to the sports forum for discussions on boxing.

Last week, a former co-worker e-mailed me with a serious question that she really needs to bring to the union. Before I retired, I was the vice president of our county employees' local. While the union wasn't without problems -- no group is -- it certainly afforded workers protections that they were not going to get from supervision, much less management.

I'm not sure that I'll have much of value to offer on union discussions. But I should still be reading the threads there. And, who knows? I might have something of value to contribute there.

the fight to unionize and I never got many comments. Then one day I tried to join your group to se what was up and I couldn't because I didn't have a star at that time. I'm glad you reminded me.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: