Do non-parents understand what it means to be a parent?

Do non-parents understand what it means to be a parent?

and don't want any. I like the kind, like my younger cousins, that you can borrow for a day at the zoo or the amusement park or the movies, then give back to their owners in the evening. :)

at all

He/she said no, and that he/she doesn't want kids, but enjoys other people's kids.

3 sisters, oldest one had 13 kids, middle one had 8 and my sane younger sister stopped at 3.

And they ALL came to Grandma's house, where Grandma showed them off and I was forced to change their diapers in assembly line fashion, one right after the other. To this day, I LOATHE and DESPISE Pampers!

You free Saturday? :)

:)

interact with kids. healthy for both, the kids and adult. even in just borrowing the kid, lol. my single fourty something, no child friend likes to use my kids for a trip to the icecream store. good for all around. and.... she gets their love, they get hers.

AAAAhhhhh........ :)

don't get them back until friday. what is a mama to do without babies (8 & 11) to take care of. a couple hours, ya, that is cool. days, not so cool

My wife and I have not been apart from them for more than 18 hours straight since they were born.

I guess we're clingy. :shrug:

and NO ONE asked me....

It's my pretty full understanding of what it takes to parent that influenced my decision to probably forgo having kids (or at least put it off for a good long time).

Parents have all my respect.

I decided to forgo kids, too, but does it mean I truly understand parenthood? :shrug:

I chose "No" I don't think it's possible to really understand what it's like.

Even though sometimes I look at fundy American Beauty families with 5 consumer-minded kids and wonder if they truly understand it yet either. ;) I imagine there are countless ways to understand what being a parent means.

i think this si what we need to remember in our society. i couldnt agree iwth you more on this.

I understand it more than some of the parents I know. I've seen friends (and my brother) fall into parenthood either through accident or with almost no thought about it. Now their kids are raised by TV, video games, and frustrated teachers who wish they'd be more involved, while they spend the diaper money on Magic: the Gathering cards. They're still stuck in an self-absorbed wanna-be-adolescent world where their children are just people they whip up extra Easy Mac for and otherwise the kids are left to their Blue's Clues tapes while the grownups have their own fun.



Are there things I'll never know about being a parent? Sure. But everyone's experience is different, and I don't think there are unified experiences and/or knowledge that all parents share simply by virtue of having kids.



Of course, the trick is that if there are, I'll never know. ;)

I've opted out of the child thing, way too much responsiblity for something I'm not sure I'd be good at.

edited for spelling

how old. none of my business. not relevent. just curious, nothing more. i am hearing this more and more. i am starting to ask self what is up. so i have to find out some info. if you don't want to share i don't care, don't. and i totally respect your decision both not answering and not having kids

We discussed it at length while we were dating, because I wanted to make sure that he definitely didn't want them either. What amazes me is how many couples never have a serious discussion about whether or not they want children.

so you are older, and really have decided. i am hearing it from older people, but i was just curious if it was people in twenties that are saying this. tip the hat to you.

i married a younger man too, wink.

I'm 30 and also child-free. I agree with everything the previous poster said. But I object to your logic: "so you are older, and really have decided." I've never wanted children and was just as decided when I was 15 as I am now. Many young child-free women are deeply offended when people with children dismiss them with, "Oh, you're young, you'll change your mind," or "wait till you're thirty." It's condescending and disrespectful.

In response to the opening post: I wonder if people with children understand (or even try to understand) those without children. If they did, they wouldn't keep saying, "You'll change your mind."

as i clearly stated in my post. and i was specific on that, because i knew there might be a possiblity that the poster i was talking to may respond to my post exactly as you did. but the poster didnt. she didnt seem to be offended as much as i worked at not offending.

firstly

yes i know people tend to say oh you are young..... my hestitation in asking. i still was "curious"

i was in my thirties before getting married totally ok with not being married. the kid part was more resigned than the married part though i dabbled in having a baby or adopting unmarried.

object all you want to my post, your right. if you chose to be offended, you will be, you will not be disappointed.

a lot of younger adults, me included throughout teens say the won't have kids. you werent/arent one. bully for you. it doesnt take away from you that others say one thing and do another.

Your response, "you're older so you're really decided" suggests that if the poster had been 17, you would have concluded, "you're young, so you haven't really decided". Isn't that a little condescending? You may have changed your mind, but that's irrelevant -- I'm guessing you weren't "child-free" to begin with. If your response had been something about statistical observations, I wouldn't have posted anything.

Furthermore, I didn't say I was personally offended. I said many young childfree women are offended by the condescending attitude of people with children. It's also well-known that many people who want children change their minds when it's too late (although they would never admit it), and that this is why they're so nasty to the childfree. They, of course, don't realize that the problem is not with the childfree but with the society that tells them all "normal" women want children and that it's unnatural for a woman not to be happy about having had children.

I am now 41 and twice sterilized. I never "changed my mind" and had children. Neither will about 22% of US women who are not infertile.

Women have other options now. For some, all they've ever wanted is babies, babies, babies - and that's fine. Others *knew* that that was not for them, and never would be, and that's fine. Others made a decision for environmental or other reasons, and that's fine, too. What's not fine is telling child-free women that we are somehow less because of the reproductive choices we made, or that our choices aren't real because of our age (does anyone say that to teenage mothers?) or that reproductive status makes one a better person. Parenthood is not sainthood; childfree is not evil.



image courtesy of Nina Paley

Like I'm some reprehensible, selfish monster and our marriage is lessened because I don't want to have one more baby.

This year or next, I'm getting a vasectomy; one of the chief reasons being that I'm just flat out sick of the questioning and the debating over my reasons for not wanting another one (I have a stepson). I'm in the mindset that both parents should want a child, not just one, and I'm not fathering children that I don't have the financial, physical or emotional means to raise.

I'm still trying to work out a plan on how to pay for this one's college while doing all of the other things that need to be done. Do these people have a spare $1500 a month that it costs to raise a child from infancy to early adulthood, because I sure as hell don't? Do these people have dreams and plans that they don't want to give up on just yet? Do these people think I'm just going to be swayed by their "you know you want one", "you're going to be in debt anyway, so you might as well suck it up", "aren't you going to regret it later on in life" bullshit? NO.

I have one child. That will be all. The earth is too overpopulated as it is with children we aren't going to be able to afford. It's best to just concentrate on making the kid I have the best he can be in life.

We can't afford more, and are just not up to it. But if we were rich, I still wouldn't have more. I would adopt. I was adopted myself and am a huge believer in it.

why does one need to be twice sterilized? (don't want to get personal..just confused)

but it is possible for a tubal ligation to "not take" the first time. I don't know the actual occurrence, but it does happen. When I had my tubal they told me I still have a 1 in 300 chance of pregnancy! If that happened, I'd have to get another tubal and my hubby would need a vasectomy too!

lol lol

first child was rhythm method. both oooopes

were both rhythm method. Evidently I got the rhythm quite well.

I had a tubal ligation by fulguration, the sole purpose of which was sterilization. I also had an uterine ablation (burning away of the endometrium) for the purpose of mitigating menorrhagia and which also has the added benefit of making pregnancy impossible. In addition, I have ovarian cysts, so nature provided me with a third back-up.

...but I suspect anyone who says that would probably be a Christian republican. I have nothing but the highest respect for people who choose to be childless. It's actually the most sensible thing to do in this crazy world. Choosing to have kids is a wild leap of faith in a world that gives us precious few reasons to have faith (that our kids and their offspring will even survive).

Saying that you can't possibly understand it should not be taken as a detraction. I couldn't possibly understand what it is to be childless at 37. I often feel I would be a much more sophisticated and interesting person had I taken that route.

It's all good. It's just different. You never cirtiqued my childrearing, so we have no beef as far as I'm concerned.

You say you have no beef, yet you choose to call me "childless" when I clearly call myself "childfree." That's a little patronizing, as is your having the "highest respect" for us. I don't particularly need your respect for my personal decision, just as I suspect you don't need mine for your decision to reproduce.

As for knowing what it's a like to be a parent, I offered no opinion. I agree I have no idea what it's like to *want* to be a parent.

so i could have made that error. and then you could have taken it personally though i prefer childfree. i was looking at childless and trying ot think of a different word to use. thankyou. this is what i will use. hope i don't offend a childfree person though, because they may think i might be meaning something i don't

First, though, just to be clear - my post was in response to someone else, not you! I

"Childless" implies a person who wanted children, but for whatever reason - circumstances, medical reasons, etc - didn't have any.

"Childfree" was adopted by people who purposesly were childless by choice (never wanted children, never had any) because it is more positive - we don't feel we're "less" anything and of course, fewer syllables.

In general, I don't think many people would be offended if "childless" were used by someone who hadn't heard "childfree." It's just one of those things, like Mrs vs Ms* where some may have preference, and there's no way to know unless it's mentioned, and it's only impolite to ignore that preference once it's made known.


*maybe not the best analogy, but the one that comes to mind right away

hence my saying i like childfree. i think i will use it. you are right,.... child less is a feeling of lacking, and a person choses not to have a child is not lacking, so it just doesnt feel right anyway. if i could have thought of a better way of expressing i would have. oh i did, i chose non parent

Perhaps you are confusing it with cruel words like "barren".

"Childfree" could only have coined by a person with a chip on their shoulder. I'm sorry there are parents who give childless couples grief for not having kids. I've never been one of them, and as far as I can tell, neither have any other parents in this thread. Please stop blaming all of us for the cluelessness of the minority.

"Childfree" could only have coined by a person with a chip on their shoulder

are you SURE you're not one of the clueless minority? what a rude, insulting statement to make about people you don't even know!

Not you, Scout - but how anyone could get "chip on the shoulder" from my post is either cranky from lack of sleep, or someone trying to pick a fight.

Who said I was blaming anybody for anything? I was merely explaining the difference in terms to someone - not you, obviously - who was interested.

My, my, my. Who's got the chip?

edit - fixed header quote

...another new word to remember. "Childfree". I'll file that away with "Handi-capable".

Now who's being self-important? How much have you obsessed over this that you had to come up with a new word for it?

childless = without child. Nothing more, nothing less, no judgment implied. Get a grip.

There was nothing to remember - it was right above in my post. Is it so hard being a parent you cannot even reference the post to which you are replying?

I did not coin the word, though I wish I could claim credit, but alas I cannot. It came into use in the 1970s and is usually credited to the now-defunct National Organization for Non-Parents. There are several functioning associations for the childfree, including No Kidding! and Kidding Aside.

As for your other comments, I'll let them speak for themselves.

Just wondering if there's a corollary term other than "parent."

I totally respect anyone regarding their decision on whether or not to have children. I think more people who are disinterested in having and raising them ought to stick with it, to hell with what anyone else says.

is that people that chose to not have children seems to be on the ready to go into the attack that society say they are not "normal" women because they don't want to have children. i was older than you before having kids and i never felt society saying that to me. the two post below mention the same attitudes from society being childless. people would ask if i was married or have kids and i would say no and that was the end. i didnt feel as if they were being superior or that they were making me less. i often made the argument my taxes were paying for others kids or work had greater demand on me cause i didnt have kids. if anything i set me up to suffering the superior and those with kids as less.

anyway, i could have gone either way, with family or without. i dont buy your whole woe is me. i am sorry if anyone makes you feel that way, that you have to jump into attack to protect self esteem.

i personally do not care about another persons choices, not my journey,... has nothing to do with me.... and i am all for individual uniqueness in whatever decisions they make for themselves

i have a friend who has hit fourty. she said she didnt want kids for the longest of time. i embraced it. twice in her life (i find out later) she had abortions. and though intellectually she was ok with abortions, emotionally she was beating self up and decided she didnt deserve kids, which i didn't realize for the longest of times. now we have talked that out, she wants kids, and is getting old. even that, it is still all ok. she can make the choices if couragous enough. or not. but it is hers and all hers to create and find a higher in whatever choice she makes. that is the important step in life i believe. not the choices, but what we do with those choices and the life we create

to conclude: i am much more interested a person and who they are, than in the judging of a person on assumption. that does nothing for me. learning about people is as close as i will get to understanding. kinda like this poll. and the only way there is thru questions

on edit: i just have to come back. on thought.... not only don't i see the parent role as special, i see it as a clog in many. i always felt myself "special" in my single without children role. who am i fooling. i had freedoms and was a commodity and enjoyed all kinds of advantages being single without children and never felt less to the parent. the more i think about it the obsurdity that you want me to feel guilty cause of the choices i have made in life, to your choices. and shame on you if you allow yourself to feel less because of someone else. that has all to do with you and NOTHING to do with another person. you state my question could "make" a person feel...... well only if you want it to. if this is what is making yawl feel less...... then i say chuck it. cause i am not feeling superior and not thinking your arent normal. for you to be feeling it is a waste of your time and mine. and if you feel it, it is only cause you want to. has nothing to do with me.

>i was older than you before having kids and i never felt society saying that to me.<

We endured years of complete strangers, let alone those we know, badgering us re: "Whyyyyyy aren't you having children?" If it wasn't that, it was stuff like "you'll never know True Love." The childfree are constantly attacked for a wise and well-thought-out decision, which is why they tend to not have much patience with those who don't have the manners to keep their opinions to themselves.

I also found it interesting that those pushing us the most to procreate were also those the most unhappy with their own lives and their own children.

Julie

with marriage, kids .... my life. but then i was when i was single too.

maybe i didnt pay attention to the people, or really didnt care. there are other things that don't seem to bother me that other people insist happen to them ALL the time. since i am out in the real world too it is hard for me to figure that i am just "lucky" not having these people around me. or having been located in all parts of the country, just having "exceptional" people around me.

i could see asking a questions, but i wouldnt see it as an affront to a person. maybe it is a sensitivity one may have that makes a question into a badgering.

anyway... i am a champion to all of us walking our journey, individually.... i have no need what so ever, no desire to insist another do it my way, that is for sure.

i wouldnt allow it in my ife, certainly not going to do it to another

nemaste

hey i am a julie too

I didn't make the decision to have children until I was in my early 30's. My first child was born when I was 34. We NEVER felt any pressure to have kids or criticism or judgement about not having them. In fact, some of our childfree friends at the time seemed disappointed that we chose to have kids, and have gradually dropped out of our lives. I don't think they were willing to accommodate our new lack of flexibility in socializing. Plus, we probably weren't as carefree and fun as before having kids.

I suppose there are still people out there that think it's selfish to NOT have children, but I never meet them. In fact, I encounter more of an attitude that it IS selfish to have children.

NEVER try to understand those without children. It is considered "selfish" and anti-social and just plain weird not to want to have kids, for whatever reason. They never ask WHY you don't have kids--they ALWAY assume it's because you don't like children. From my perspective there are so many other reasons that come into it--not "liking" kids is far from the primary reason. But people with kids never want to know. They act like members of a privileged club. "You can't KNOW what it's like to have kids if you've never had them" is the most ridiculous notion. But this poll supports this widespread idea. It's very divisive.

I don't get involved in my siblings affairs but I do have concerns about the ones who have kids, which I would not voice to them in the interest of family peace. Most of my siblings/step sibs have kids and the degree of living through children that is going on with them is alarming. One sis whose kids are now going off to college is literally having a nervous breakdown about it--separation anxiety. Another sis-in-law does nothing but fight with her kids and try to put them in boxes. Another step-sis has spoiled her pre-teen kids so badly they are voracious unapproachable zombies. One brother is doing a good job without stressing too much but then his 2 are very young. Raising kids is a very hard job these days, you have to admire those who do it fairly well. But it makes some people so myopic that they close down to a small world that is very limiting.

I agree Athena, the attitudes of those with kids towards those who don't is generally disrespectful.

the whole point of my post was to understand about those that chose to not have kids. if i didnt have an interest, i wouldnt have started the conversation.

i would have liked to have asked "WHY" a person has made the choice, to understand, but just starting the conversation with age brought down wrath..... the poster explained in her post, but the whole point was the why

i want to know

it is divisive only if that is how you chose to approach it with a wide brush.

people now a days are waiting awfully late in life before starting families. many of us that are now raising young ones once thought that maybe we wouldnt be having children either, for the various reasons. because it had nothing to do with "liking" kids, to pin that on people just cause you assume is as wrong as what you are accusing of parents doing to yawl.

but..... if you want to tell me "why" you have chosen not to have kids, if in fact you have chosen to not have kids, i personally would be way interested.

I have been married for over 20 years (we met in college). So it's not like there hasn't been the opportunity, and in fact until lately there was constant pressure re. having kids. One of the things that really angered me after I realized the depth of the social expectation to have children was that if we did not have kids --in my family anyway-- we were always going to be treated as though we never quite grew up. And this has proved to be true. This is the punishment, meted out in subtle ways. For my family and for much of this society, having kids is THE passport to adulthood. There is also a compulsion to do it because everybody else does, and you have to have one of your own (children are not shared in our culture). My spouse and I rejected this and decided to weather it together. We knew we would pay for being renegades.

My SO is an only child of good parents who let him make his own decisions and did not insist on grandchildren. But I come from a real Brady bunch litter of 7--with many not getting what they needed, and others getting too much of what they didn't need, an unweildy conglomerate with a lot of stresses and strains. Right from the beginning I knew my sibs were hell-bent to produce a lot of kids, as encouraged by their elders. I currently have 12 nieces and nephews, so considering the numbers that are possible they have been relatively restrained. (If economic factors hadn't been considered, they would produce more, I'm sure). I have been part of these children's lives as much as possible and am proud to say that one of my nieces once voted me as her "favorite person" (non-parent) and wrote an essay about me. To be honest, I would have liked to have a child or two but decided that our extended family had produced ENOUGH (my mother certainly did her share). I already KNOW what overpopulation looks like--it happened at OUR HOUSE.

My SO and I were in grad school during Reagan and these were not good times to reproduce enthusiastically IMO. We both had to change careers and work to put ourselves through school. We were barely hanging on ourselves in low-level jobs. We considered that biologically speaking this would be a good time to do it, but financially speaking we would have been propelled into disaster. We both talked about the fact that --at that time--I kid you not--we did not have good feelings about where the country was headed. We really did foresee some of the things that are happening today--it's actually worse now than we thought it would be. We wondered if we would be trampled by the system and put any offspring through hell too. We feared the future even then.

The last reason I will offer you as to why we have not done this concerns another premonition that two of our parents would become seriously chronically ill in the 90's, and this is in fact what happened. In the case of my husband's father, help was required sporadically but in the case of my mother, I became a mainstay as (for one thing) my sibs were occupied with children. My mother was dying, with an unbelievable number of hospitalizations, for roughly 9 years. One of my sibs also had the care of a mother-in-law, and another sister has a severely disabled child--so it was not an 'unfair' burden or anything I resented doing. I knew that it was my job to help my mother through that illness, and I know that I did a good job because I was not otherwise occupied by family concerns (though I had other commitments). It wasn't easy. Now I have increasing responsibilites with my own father who lives alone and is starting to need some help at times. Elder care has loomed large in my life.

There are other reasons, having to do with the fact that the work I do does give me a lot of rewards that are not too different from the satisfaction that comes from raising a child, but others might scoff at that. Too much to explain. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you might not appreciate the point no matter how much explanation I would give. Bottom line, you just CAN'T "do it all" in this life. Everything is a trade-off. I have learned that the hard way and am happy with my choices. But this culture is particularly hard on those who choose other things over children.

I believe that you are sincere in your question, seabeyond, so I chose to answer it. For the most part the rift between those who have kids and those who don't (for whatever reason) make me very sad, not angry. I wish I lived in a culture that appreciated everybody's unique contributions, and didn't put people down who don't always follow the societal dictates. But I think this thread proves that I do not exaggerate the nature of the divide. The ideas out there on this subject are very divisive, very destructive, even among liberals. I can't tell you how many times over the course of the years I have been assumed "not to like kids." I have had to bash people over the head with the fact that I DO like kids...but still they forget.

You seem to be a devoted parent seabeyond, and I admire that. Parenting is a tough job. You at LEAST have an interest in asking why someone wouldn't have children. That is an enlightened and unusual question in my experience. I have never been sincerely ASKED that question--I have only dealt with the assumptions and the negativity. So thank you...for asking.

i love your post in so many ways.

i do understand how we can receive fulfillment in many different ways. it sounds like both you and your hsuband are very intuned to self, ergo.... walking your journey in a wonderfully healthy and balanced way. where in the world would there be need for anything said from me or anyone else, lol. also i really did not think i would be doing kids and marriage. so i did see life from that perspective at one point in my life

the thing, ... i don't walk life as others expect. i just don't care. i am comfortable in my decision making abiities and after a good 44 years of non perfect, i am satisfied. i trust others are able to do the same as i. i leave it to them. i don't want the job of figuring out someones elses life. awesome responsibility and i am too busy doing mine and i can't do it nearly as well as they can. i do understand that.

my husbands parents have a son that is lawyer, married to lawyer. daughter that is lawyer married to doctor. my husband masters in business. son who is architect. son who is psychiatrist, (two younger brothers no children... no desire, though one is godparent to mine. my boys love them so, and they are so good to my boys)

husband parents still treat them like two year olds.

whereas my parents always allowed us to make our decisions and live with the repercussions. and a respect to self ownership.

i personally hit adult about 38 and said,... oh .. this is being adult. i get it. took me a while.

i have always felt that those that don't have kids have such a huge role in our society. in universe i see the value and worth of all. and i know there is a precious gift, that when one isnt using the time on childrearing, they are using it in other places. in a post below talking to someone about her time with nieces and nephews i was telling her how important extended family is. how important the aunts and uncles are. i see it with my kids and i value it. a parent is not enough

why i brought it up,... and it goes off your predictions of the 80's. i watch the over all flow of society. i am hearing more people in their twenties not wanting kids. on this board i hear a lot of anger towards kids which surprised me at first. i didnt think the non parent was because they didnt like kids. not the majority. i really felt it was more your perspective, there were reasons. but what i have been hearing of late has me concerned and in wonder. and for no other reason than, if i understand i can find the higher in it, and i can give that to my children so they better understand the world they walk in. and so i walk in it in the higher

anyway. thank you for the story. it was enlightening, and it was fun to read. and for all you give to your family, a big thumbs up to you too.

use a mop instead of that broad brush.

I have two kids. I have never, in my life, pressured or even ASKED a person without children when/if/why not, etc. I don't think it is anti-social or selfish. Or just plain weird. My sister has no children. My nephew has none. My son has none and no plans.

One thing I do agree on is that no one can walk in another's shoes. I don't know what it is like to never have had children, although I can get a sense of it from friends and acquaintances. But I will never really experience that. By the same token, childless folks can get a sense of parenthood but without experiencing it cannot fully appreciate it. But we can all listen and learn from each other.

And yes, one thing you said is very true. Parenthood, particularly of very young children, does shrink your world. My daughter has two infants and got out today for a manicure and acted like she'd been given a thousand bucks! I remember those days. They are long and tiring.

Pull-ease. As a person with children, not only don't I have to "struggle" to understand people who are childfree, I don't give a rat's ass why they chose to be so.

Who honestly cares? Do you care why people HAD children? Probably not.

but that's not the most common attitude out there IMO. In my family it's a big deal, a real affront to traditions and expectations, which I have had to live with for a long time. I would have been justified in rejecting this more forcefully but chose not to lose my family over it.

In our society having no children also has repercussions. Others here have underscored my feelings of being treated as aberrant, as "not quite adult." I am never included in things that involve friends or associates who have children. It's a prejudice that people (esp liberals) don't like to admit to having. Nobody's asking you to "struggle" with understanding anything.

I'm glad your experience is different and maybe atttitudes about this can change. But not if we pretend there's no problem.

her post that was not there. You jumped on her for experiences you have had with thoughtless people.

Some do, some don't. Truthfully, there are many parents out there who really don't know what it really means to be a parent, much to the detriment of their children.

L-

And even those of us who are conscientious and caring and try our best often find ourselves to be inadequate. It is an overwhelming responsibility that never ends.

Daughter is 5 1/2 months old. So far it's been extremely stressful from a few problems and as you said, the overwhelming (almost endless) responsibilities.

L-

but it is hard. and people really don't clue new parents into it. and then the parent starts thinking something is wrong with them, that it isnt all bliss. i just learned to put all to the side, not be super woman, be tired, and have little expectation..... and enjoy. 6 months i became more comfortable (not afraid). at 8 months i looked at son and said, i am going to LIKE you. lots of demands...

Our daughter is for the most part a very happy and joyful individual and I think that helps immensely. However, I do understand what you are saying about being comfortable, it's an issue we're both starting to work on. 8 months seems like an eternity away and time I hope doesn't slip by as fast as these six months seem to have.

sounds all oh so normal to me. thinking back to that age. to entertain alone. lol. it is hard, mixed in with the joy and beauty. naptime the best. yet i was always ready for sons to wake up too. just an odd time.

to fly so take lots of pictures! Our first came 7 wks. early and weighed in at a whopping 4 lbs. 13 oz. It seems as though once we got past some early hurdles we turned around and he was walking, then running, then the first day of school! He's 16 now and it just seems like a breath ago we were scared to bring him home from the hospital!

Over 6 ft. tall and driving and I swear it seems as though just yesterday!

My syrupy comment for the day.

Hang in there! As my SIL told me when my first was born;

"Relax! Children survive INSPITE of you!"
:rofl:

It's been a long haul and rocky at times, a lot of times, but we survived!

Congratulations!!

I always wanted a daughter but I got three sons instead!
;)

....i just learned to put all to the side, not be super woman, be tired, and have little expectation..... and enjoy.

This is what I did, and for some reason I felt very strongly that the most important thing I could offer my new baby besides physical survival and loving was the feeling that she was welcome and very much enjoyed. I believe that this has enormous value for a child's positive feelings about life and himself!

DemEx

The responsibility never ends, and it eventually sinks in that you will never be the person you were before, but the midnight feedings eventually end, and the personality starts to emerge and they start to win you over more and more. After that, the toilet training finally ends (That's a biggie!) and just when things start to feel a little more relaxed, you put them in school/day care and the whole gamut of volunteering/bake sales/chauffering starts.

It's never quite easy, but you do get breathers now and then, and moments that make it all worthwhile are more numerous as they get older than when they are infants. Honestly, as much as people fawn over them as infants, I enjoyed my kids much more over the age of 6 months. Before that, a baby is mostly just a little sleeping, pooping, eating and crying machine. (a cute pooping machine, but still...)

Our daughter is getting more and more personality each and everyday. We're starting to get into a rhythm of things with her, so it's not as scatter-brained on our part. However, you are right in that her needs have changed and our ability to respond has gotten better (or at least something we're better able to understand). Chauffeuring seems like an eternity away at this moment, though I'm sure will be on us before we know it.

L-

and was going to post exactly what you wrote. Guess I won't have too ;)

Not all God's children have empathy. Empathy is MORE than mere compassion and certainly something other than projection. Indeed, it's clear that empathy isn't a universal trait nor one that's assured according to one's political leanings or life experiences. While empathy might assure liberalism, the reverse is certainly not true.

Probably more salient, one's parental status certainly doesn't guarantee empathy, nor does empathy assure one would be a good parent. More is needed. Respect. (For self and others.) Humility. Open-mindedness.

The latter is certainly most disturbing in light of the poll results here where an overwhelming number seem bizarrely close-minded to the comprehensions of many, many millions of people with whom they will never meet and never interact. It is my respect for the innate abilities of coming generations upon which I rest my hopes ... not in the virtues of their parents.

But no one can really know what it's like to be an invested parent unless they are, and I mean adoptive, foster and any other parent who has had to be responsible for a child.

I was an adopted child myself.

I have friends that go on and on about their pets and describe them as their "children", and I have to chuckle inwardly.

When I was young and childless, I kept a cat, and then cats with my girlfriend - we loved and doted on them. I cried when my cat died. I loved my dog as a kid. Nothing more beautiful than the love between a pet and his/her human companion, but there is NO COMPARISON to what you feel for your child, not even in the same ballpark. They take a hold of your heart at infants and never let go, wrenching and squeezing it all along the way. Looking at them sleeping can make you weep at times, for their beauty, or for worry, or any number of other emotions that sweep over you. And all the while you sacrifice and exhaust yourself for them and watch as they grow, you know that it's only a short time before they no longer need you. And yet, you wouldn't give it up if you could.

oh the best. cummulatively, i don't know how many hours... and you are right, soemtimes with a smile and pure joy and beauty and somestimes with a winkled brow and concern and worry... but the best

Whenever my husband and I are with childless friends who are pet owners and the subject of our daughter comes up as in, "Oh, by the way, how's your daughter doing?" Before we get a chance to respond, we're interrupted with, "Our 'children' Fido and Rover are finishing up obedience school..." or something along those lines.

I know pet owners lavish love and attention on their pets - as they should, but you are absolutely right that the parent/child bond is on a completely different level. Thanks for articulating it so well.

a commitment to either a child or a pet is his/her lifetime. However, for a pet that means an average of 10 to 20 years. For a child, that means for the rest of YOUR life.

You can leave a dog alone for a few hours while you work or play. A cat can stay alone overnight with a couple of bowls of food and water left out. Try that with a two-year old human.

If you discover you're allergic to your pet, you can probably find it a good home. Pets seldom need a ride anywhere or help with college tuition. I never lay awake at night worrying about my pet's future.

Like you, Yollam, I dearly love and adore my pets. But the love (and responsibility and pain) doesn't compare with being a parent.

I thought about it. I read about it. I knew lots of other parents. I thought there was a chance I got it.

Not a clue. Not even an awareness of where to find a clue.

The meaning of 24/7 really hit hard. When the kid was a few months old my wife took it to visit her parents. I found myself waking up in the middle of the night and panicking if I didn't hear the tyke. So I asked a friend who's daughter was long since grown up and moved out if she used to get up in the middle of the night to make sure the baby was still breathing.

She said when her daughter visits, she still does.

(i miss mine. why i am all over this thread) oh isnt that the truth on 24/7. not a night goes by i dont check on boys.... except when they are far away from me loll lol. i love your story

My two girls are 5 and 6--but I check on them at night and snuggle their blankets around them.

I thought I did this because I was overly protective and a bit odd--but maybe many other parents do this too!

Thanks for your post...that was really cool.

...and I know that I had NO IDEA what being a mom would be like!

Even though I had been a nanny and worked with children--I had no comprehension of parenting.

I don't think you can fully understand, unless you've "been there" and that's ok!

I never, EVER imagined the deep, emotional, parent-child connection (I was raised by wolves)--and I also never knew how powerful the bond between a parent and child would be.

When my 2 girls were born, I felt unimaginable love and a deep sense of protectiveness. I felt joy that I didn't even know existed. Now that they're 5 and 6--I never imagined the patience that I would need. They're terrific kids--but when they have volcanic meltdowns or pour pancake syrup on the floor 5 minutes before the realtor is due to arrive with prospective buyers--it's enough to drive you insane.

I never imagined the immense sense of responsibility that I would feel. I cherish and respect that these little kids need me and depend on me for SO MUCH. My words can break their hearts or lift their spirits--or inspire them to create and dream. I try to be really careful with my words and actions.

I had an awful childhood, but my children have given me an unexpected gift. I'm learning that being a parent is a second shot at having a good childhood. Through them, I see my own innocence and that all children are good and deserve to be respected and loved. It's very healing.

Being a parent brings out the best in a person and it can also bring out weaknesses and vulnerabilities--ones you didn't know you even had! Parenting can magnify issues that you haven't resolved about your own childhood. That can hit you like a ton of bricks!

I NEVER--in a million years--imagined how wonderful, exhilarating, exhausting, spiritual, educational and mind-expanding being a mom would be!

I grew up in a non-family, always wishing I had the real thing. I finally figured out in my 30's that if I wanted a family I'd have to make it myself. Parenting is not easy, but I feel blessed and thankful to be able to have this experience. And I hope my kids will help make the world a better place.

:hi:

it means responsibility, sacrifice, involvement, interaction, discipline, protection...

it doesn't mean using the television as a nanny
it means taking an active part in schooling.
it doesn't mean sueing myspace because your 14 year-old got assaulted.
it means setting an example in everything you say and do.

and on and on.

Sigh.

"Setting an example in everything you say and do." => If ONLY most parents had a clue about this.

Congrats to your children for having picked a GREAT parent - though I will be they have had a few minor complaints along the way about your being too involved, too strict... ;-)

i steered clear of the whole works. my wife and i are childless by choice.

however- i will also say that i believe that PARENTS are the biggest problem when it comes to falling educational standards...they seem to think that the schools are/should be totally and wholly responsible for educating, raising, and instilling values in their children...as a teacher, it must be maddening.

i did not hand over my responsibliities as a parent to the schools. but many many parents have. this is something i have been slowly recognizing in the different schools for the boys and have started to really address, last year. i joined pta at one of hte schools and looking to do the same in the other school eactly for this reason.

here here, or hear hear to what you say,.

this subject is not talked about nearly as often as need be.

but parental involvement/interest is usually one of the reasons that so many asian students in u.s. schools do so well.

the mother doesnt speak english. i sat next to her at the thanksgiving lunch and told her she HAD to get the cranberries. put a little on the fork with a little turkey and stuffing. a must. she just loved it. got all excited. was a lot of fun. my son really likes this little girl cause.........she is the smartest, and nice.

i found out years ago with my first son in school, get to know the teachers, let teachers get to know us, and the boys would be taken care of. i was surprised in private so few parents participated and the teachers were thrilled with me as a parent checking in, (every morning in drop off, even just with a hi) talking to them about the uniqueness of the older. we changed to a public low income school and the teachers just thrilled with a parent working with them. one year. last year we got into a really tough school. brand new, high income. again this school i was surprised with the low participation of parents. just surprised. and the teachers acted as if they were imposing asking for kids to stay after for tutoring when i was thrilled with the offer and opporunity for the kids.

but.... i saw early on, be a part of the school and the kids will do better, get a better education, get more. because the teacher isnt guessing.

the question is ridiculous, really

can a white man understand what it is to be black, can a woman understand what it is to be a man, can a human being understand what it is to be a dog

okay, there are always unknowables when it comes to understanding ANYONE in ANY situation that differs from yours, but if you have a good dose of empathy and good will then you can understand well enough

otherwise novelists could not write convincing stories abt anyone except characters just like themselves!

many parents want to puff themselves up and pretend that their circumstances are so odd and unusual that no childless person can understand, but this is ridiculous on the face of it, it is another way of saying that childless persons are inferior because they cannot possibly possess the imagination or empathy to put themselves in another's shoes

and that my friends is just rude, you know?

...but I disagree.

I said in an earlier post, that before I had kids---I really didn't have any grasp of what it was like. I wasn't an "inferior" person or a person who lacked "empathy" or "imagination." Not at all. I was just a different person back then, with different experiences.

I can read all I want about being a Merchant Marine. I can talk to Merchant Marines and listen to stories for hours. However, until you experience the experience---you can't possibly feel it the same way as a Merchant Marine.

I don't think it's an insult at all---to suggest that a person gains a different perspective when they become a parent. It's an experience--part of the journey.

Everyone has their own path and parents are not better people--because they've had a child. However, they understand parenting in ways that non-parents can't. That's just they way it is.

Maybe it turned out to be different that you would individually have expected, but it would not mean that everyone is like that.

I get what you are saying but it may not apply to every single other person who does not have children.

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clearly you think you are the superior person, the very title of your post "sounds like you have a complex, pal" is insulting to me as a person

that is rude and also unnecessary

if you don't believe that people can have an imagination large enough to understand the experience of others, fine, but personal insults should be left out of it

It's because you respond with nonsense like this:

many parents want to puff themselves up and pretend that their circumstances are so odd and unusual that no childless person can understand, but this is ridiculous on the face of it, it is another way of saying that childless persons are inferior because they cannot possibly possess the imagination or empathy to put themselves in another's shoes

and that my friends is just rude, you know?


Nobody in this whole thread has said, or even implied any of this bilge. It's obvious that you have a personal problem with the subject.


No amount of imagination is enough to prepare a person for parenthood. It is ALWAYS more than we imagined. It is a transformative experience. I don't think I'm "better than others" for having had it, but I do think I'm different, and I'm definitely a different person than I was before having kids.

What you see as "puffing up" is simply an attempt by parents to relate and share common experiences. Sorry if that bugs you.

I didn't think the question is about whether or not people can imagine BEING someone else. The issue is whether you can know something about an experience that you haven't had. Can you really know what it's like to have sex when you're still a virgin? Can you know what it's like to be married if you're single?

I don't think this is about childless people being inferior, but I'm sorry if anyone's ever made you feel that way. I think parents and non-parents sometimes miscommunicate with each other, where non-parents tell parents how to raise their kids and parents tell non-parents that they can't possibly understand.

Empathy goes a long way, but I don't think anyone can truly understand experiences they haven't had.

You seem more like a conflict manager than a conflict girl! :)

I actually really hate conflict and strive to be a peacemaker. The "conflict girl" name is something an old boyfriend gave me when I was younger because he said there are so many things about me that are contradictions and seem to be in conflict with each other.

"i don't think anyone can truly understand experiences they haven't had"

thank god the great artists of the world, the novelists, the painters, the film makers -- everyone who strives to enlarge the boundaries of our limited human experience -- thank god they do not agree w. you

the whole enterprise of all of the arts is rooted in this, that we can open to experiences we haven't had, that we can climb mountains we haven't climbed, experience tragedies and glories we haven't personally experienced, that the book of human experience is open to all of us if only the artist does his job well enough

i would hate to live in a world where everyone just gave up and agreed that it was hopeless and only the isolated individual himself could understand his experience

see, the secret is, there is NO "experience of being a parent," there is NO "experience of being childless," EVERY individual has a different experience of what being a parent or what being child-free means to them, my mother has said many times that having children was the worst thing that could happen to a woman, is THAT the universal experience of all parents everywhere? of course not, because there is NO universal experience, it differs for everyone

and yet people of good will CAN understand each other -- unless they deliberately put blocks in their path and decide that they are superior and cannot be understood by the less experienced, your example of virgin versus sexually experienced is another classic, the sexual experienced person always assumes she is superior to the virgin and that the virgin can't "know," it is too easy for human beings to find excuses to feel superior to each other

i refuse to accept that people are unable to understand each other

if others want to accept that for themselves, okay, but it sure sounds like taking on a HUGE limitation in trade for the "ego puff" of being able to think oneself superior for having an experience another person hasn't had

Every experience is individual, yet human beings have the ability to empathize, to imagine and to feel emotion, without which there would be little communication or even simple sympathy between us.

One woman doesn't have children, regrets it and is unhappy. Is that what it means to be a "childless woman"?

One woman neglects her children, wishes she never had them and has difficulty even having a emotional bond with them due to this resentment. Is that what it means to be a mother?

One man doesn't have kids, doesn't like kids, either and refuses to even be around them. Is that what it means to be a man without children?

One man impregnates a woman, leaves her after a few years and never shows any interest in caring for the child he brought into the world. Is that what it means to be a father?

All of the above are "what it means to be a parent" or "childless" for someone, many people in fact.

I do believe that those who have children, and are devoted and responsible parents, have a tough and demanding job, one that our society doesn't do much to make any easier, unlike other countries. (Although if you had children in some third world country, your lot would be much, much more difficult.)

However, this sometimes results in a self-absorbed state in some people, when they start to insist that "no one can begin to understand" this rarefied experience that sets you apart from all others (although you are no minority). I can make the same statements about many aspects of my existence, but I do not identify myself through them and demand that everyone else acknowledge that they "can't understand". Quite the opposite, I want people to understand, that is how people grow and bond with each other. But if I knew many people who had the same exact experience as myself, I may be tempted to view myself instead as a part of a special group, that had this experience that "no one else understands" and refuse to allow other people to empathize or share in my experience. And everyone would be the worse for it.

"empathy" in our language if you had to experience something to have any clue what it is like.

There are some experiences on the extreme edge of human experience for which it might be more true than for other experiences.

Being a parent happens all around you all the time. Definitely NOT an experience on the extreme edge of human experience.

I also believe that the limits of empathy and imagination do serve to divide us, do allow for more abuse in the world than there might otherwise be.

thank you pitohui

Hasn't anyone heard the expression "it's my baby" about a creative project, a task they have taken on, an enterprise, a positive commitment.

Not only have people who don't have children been teachers, mentors, coaches and part-time parents, but they also easily relate to the bonding that occurs between parent and child. Anytime you pour yourself into the creation and nurturing of something positive, you can understand what it is to be a parent (an involved parent anyway).

And yet the misconception is everywhere, that parents and non-parents are two different species of human.

because i have no desire to. i am fine with however one interprets this poll. but.... looking at the poll the strong majority of parents said that a non parent couldnt know what it is like. instead of assuming that all these people are being mean, uncaring or thinking they are special, i would think a person would reflect that these people voting are probably asking themselves, prior to having kids did i understand what it is to be a parent.

i am not answering this poll thinking about another poll

i am answering this poll thinking about my own experience prior to having kids and comparing it to having kids. and if IIIIII could comprehend the role of parent.

i imagine that is how everyone answered the poll. through self reflection,

I don't think I'm superior to non-parents. I just remember what I believed parenthood to be like before I had kids, and it ended up being nothing like I expected.

hint: I could probably find Everest on a map and that's about it.


i refuse to accept that people are unable to understand each other

It isn't a question of empathy, it's a question of experiences. I understand that a mountain climber gets cold. I understand that the altitude makes it a hard walk. I understand that it's steep.

I know I don't truly understand what that means until I actually climb a mountain, until then, it's all academic.

I will add however, that the experience of "being a parent" varies widely. Being a parent, being a parent of children, being a parent of a child with disabilities are wildly different things.

No one better understands your experiences than you. No one better understands my experiences than me.

I don't feel superior to men because they don't know what it's like to have a vagina. I don't feel superior to the French because they don't know what it's like to live in America. I don't feel superior to deaf people because they don't know what it's like to have hearing. There is no superior or inferior in this question for me at all. Your argument completely invalidates the reality of lived experiences by saying that there is nothing we can't possibly understand without experiencing it first-hand.

I am a writer and I understand the value in *imagining* one who has different life circumstances. But that doesn't mean that I really, truly understand what their lives are like.

I don't feel superior to a virgin because I know what sex is like, nor do I feel superior to non-parents. I just think it's incredibly arrogant to claim to know what it is like to be in someone else's shoes.

There is NO "ego puff" in this for me, nor do I feel superior to anyone else for having an experience they haven't had. I am saying that everyone's experience is unique and we can't possibly really know what that experience is like, we can only make guesses.

a very important concept you mention here: if experience is the final arbiter for any sort of level of understanding then communication is impossible in this world between people. but it obviously isn't the final, binary-like, arbiter of understanding and judgment.

and yet, if we understand that there are different levels of understanding, then we cannot discount that experience is also a valid, if not extremely important, facet of shaping perception. it takes the abstracted amalgam of related experience with an applied personal viewpoint (the empathic level of understanding, if you will) and places it into the concrete (the experience itself). in that transition period, many previously held conceptions can, and have, been known to completely change -- which brings the discussion that people with the experience want to convey, experience is a whole new level, and there's a chance that you'll find what you understood to be wrong.

essentially the answer is both. there is such a personal level to experience, and to empathic understanding as well, that we cannot say one is better than another. they are both crucially valuable. one gives you the inarticulable challenge of transition, and the other gives you the articulation to challenge disconnect.

though i do appreciate what you've done here. it's one of my pet peeves that people place experience on such a vaulted platform that they forget that not everything is worth experiencing, and knowledge isn't wholly predicated on experience. otherwise we'd all be curious to verify whether the poisonous and dangerous things of the world are really so. i.e. i know a black mamba is deadly poisonous, i don't need to experience it. the experience will add very little meaning to the knowledge already gained.

not all experience is worth the effort. yet it's hard to make the other argument that not all empathy/communication/knowledge is worth the effort. even to its most limited degree the communication provides you a framework of understanding, while keeping you at a safe distance and the variables low, something that cannot be said for experience. and just like communication, experience, though oft said to be the best teacher, doesn't mean the lessons always take. open the forbidden box, or listen to the instruction; both might or might not teach, but which one leaves a better result should things go poorly? the exaltation of experience in society needs to be taken down a notch to sensible levels.

if one has no children.

This is particularly difficult to take when one had no children because they could not have them.

Like I can't make a comment about kids because I don't have any.

You don't ever, ever stop worrying and assume they're going to be fine.
Not when they're 10, 15, 18, 21 or whatever.
usually they prove you a worrier. but JESUS! they can scare the shit out of you.

Speaking of parents...I saw this today on Smirking Chimp. It really made me think about the way that society supports the idea that raising and caring for your kid until they are "of age", then sending them off to fight in the worst hellish conditions imaginable, is considered acceptable, even admirable. It's very, very strange and kind of insane. By the way--the post is satire, in case you are wondering. It was originally posted on manticeye.com/blog


Parents Send Teen Son To Confront Armed Intruder While They Hide In Bedroom
Lois Woodward
Sentinel Press

MIDDLETOWN S.D. -- The suspicious sound of glass breaking in the living room was heard at three in the morning. Allan Smithson turned to his wife, Janet, and told her to be quiet and stay where she was. He pulled out his rifle from the bedroom closet and quietly crept down the hall to where his son, James, was sleeping.

Quietly opening the door, Allan woke 18-year-old James and told him there might be an intruder in the house. James, a champion swimmer, immediately was on the alert. He took the rifle that his father handed him and went into action. It was the moment that James had been waiting for. It was his chance take care of his parents the way they had always taken care of him.

Allan Smithson went back into his bedroom and locked the door. He comforted his worried wife by assuring her that James would do his best to take care of the problem. She had already called 9/11 but due to recent cuts in services, it would be a little while before they could respond

"James was always so grateful for all the good things we did for him while he was growing up," said a tearful Janet Smithson. "We gave him the very best: schooling, a beautiful home, a new car for his 16th birthday and a brand-new Xbox this summer. Even though we were too much in debt to afford the college James wanted to go to, he understood. That’s just the way James was."

James moved slowly down the stairs holding his weapon. He had practiced with the Ruger 96/44 rifle so many times it was second nature to him. He saw the broken glass in the French doors and knew that someone was in the house, hiding somewhere in the dark.

In the bedroom, Allan and Janet heard shots ring out below. They stayed where they were, hoping that James had prevailed, fearful of what might happen next. When the police finally arrived they banged on the door for 10 minutes before Allan, hearing no movement below, went downstairs to let them in.

The scene in the living room was every parent’s nightmare. Their beloved son lay sprawled out on the floor, mortally wounded. Janet ran to her dying son whose last words were:

"I'm sorry, Mom, I let you down."

"No, baby," sobbed Janet. "You did your best to protect us. We're proud of you."

"He was the best,” said Allan. "His death was not in vain. If he hadn't confronted that burglar, who knows what might have been stolen from our home? Who knows what might have happened to me and my wife and my daughter?"

"We'll miss him,” said Janet.

James' 17-year-old sister, Melanie, was silent as tears ran down her face. When asked by reporters how she felt having lost her brother, she looked at us with a determined tilt to her chin.

"He was a hero," she said. "I asked Dad to teach me to shoot a rifle too. I want to be ready in case they need me. I want to be like James." Then she buried her pretty face in her mother's shoulder.

No charges will be filed against the Smithsons. A memorial fund in remembrance of James is being established by relatives of the family. The money will be used to send sister, Melanie, to college.

God forbid they just let the crooks take the silver and keep their son alive.

That someone would try to have a shootout with an intruder over THINGS just blows my mind.

It's not even remotely funny if that's what it is.

But in the original post, the poster points out that the story is satire.

Pretty clever piece, IMHO.

I don't get this story! I don't find it touching at all.

What kind of parent sends their 18-year-old child, downstairs in the dark to face an armed intruder?

You call 9/11, lock your bedroom door and shelter you, your wife and your kids inside with you. You don't throw one of them to the wolves!

I can't even imagine doing that!

That story is macabre!

I'd much rather have a live child and a missing DVD player than a dead "hero". But that's repukes for you. Willing to spill their own kids' blood to protect their STUFF.

On edit, manticeye.com/blog has it, but a link to the original (there) would be nice.

Still sounds fictional. Spoofish.

by chance? I have a couple of different ways, and I can not find this story in its original context anywhere. Who, what, where, and when? The story seems odd, especially the sister's response. Thanks

and the father is worried about what might have been stolen????

His death wasn't in vain my backside!

I believe it was probably written (made up) by someone who was trying to point out the similar logic involved in sending one's son off to war to "fight to protect the American way of life" while his parents stay home. (Note the point is made that the parents put the gun in his hand, he is proud to be sent to do the fighting for his parents despite the fact that they can't afford to send him to college, etc. Then, when he dies, they talk about how "his death was not in vain" because otherwise the intruder might have stolen something and ruined their way of life. You know, the kid fought the intruder DOWNstairs so they wouldn't have to fight him UPstairs...that sort of thing.)

That's what I get for scanning it too quickly. :blush:

same as understanding, so I chose "non-parent that thinks non-parents can't truly understand."

My mother had a day-care center when I was a teenager and drafted me into participation. I think it gave me a realistic enough view of parenthood to avoid it when I got older. I avoided it for many reasons. One of the biggest reasons is I've spent most of my adult life too sick to take care of myself let alone raise a child. I love my nephew, but I've never been able to handle him for more than a few days at a time. Now that he's getting older, that will probably change, but I won't have him enough to appreciate it. :)

And usually act about the same.

Just sayin'....

;)

And you never need to worry about parent-teacher conferences. I know I kept my parents in a constant state of worry over those...they never knew what they were going to get. Either I was the best student in the class or an absolute nightmare who refused to work to potential.

and we should be able to know something about it from that. I raised two children, and while I believe that many non-parents don't understand what it means to be a parent, it's unfair to say that it's impossible for them to understand. But it does take some effort and some empathy on their part, and many don't care to know.

if you haven't 'been there.' I can't count the number of times I have said "I can't imagine what it's like to be a parent." Kids will do the damnedest things, and parents will go to the ends of the earth to protect them, shelter them, nurture them. I can understand that, but when a kid has grown up into a spoiled brat adult who is still a kid accepting being carried by a parent, I lose all understanding of how they can be that way. Both the parent and the kid.

Some of us were raised by nurturing, loving parents, some of us didn't have it so good, or I suspect "MOST" of us had dysfunctional parents who did the best they knew how which may not have been very good.

I never ever wanted children. I think I 'like' children just fine but I don't go out of my way to spend time with anybody else's kids so I can tell you I'm not parent material not even a little bit. I have very high regard for the self-sacrifice and total love and hard work that parenthood is. It would be nice if it were that nobody would have to take it on without first making a conscious decision that they are up to the challenge and want to take it.

not for a minute. never could imagine loving anyone so much and having such an impact on someone's life.

if i had known, i might've been too scared to have a kid. ignorance was a blessing, in this case...

many "passes" they get in the employment world that non-parents don't get - the excuse "I have to pick up my kid" keeps many parents from working late while folks without kids have to stay. The problem here isn't that parents get to leave on time (their kids need their time, too) but rather, that our employment values expect people to work well beyond 40 hours a week. Everyone should be leaving on time, but without the excuse of picking up the kids, it's much harder to say no when it's clearly expected.

Parents, there are some things made easier by having kids.

And obviously written by a non-parent.

First off, pretty much every parent wasn't a parent at some point in their lives. We haven't all completely forgotten what it's like.

But on the other side of the fence-- I'm sorry, but it IS a different world. You think parents are "catching breaks" and "sneaking out of work" by leaving to pick up their kids... I get where you're coming from, but.. I've had a lot of stressful jobs and time crunches in my time, but nothing like the stress and time crunch that comes with being a parent. You think work excessively controls your time? Ask a stay at home mom or dad about leaving the ability to take 2 minutes for a relaxing bowel movement back there at the hospital when they brought home baby. I'll tell you, there are sweat shop bosses in third world countries that keep their employees on longer leashes than your average toddler does his or her caregiver at times.

Or ask some moms and dads of little babies about when the last time they got a solid 8 hours of sleep was. Or 6. Likely you'll see a wistful, faraway look in the eye.

For lots of folks, when they leave work and pick up the kids, that's when the REAL work starts.

Being a parent is wonderful, if you want it- and I agree with you that employers shouldn't make non-parents take up the slack... but this idea that parents are somehow coasting along in the easy lane because the boss "lets them go to pick up the kids"..

Like I said. Only a non-parent could come up with that. :rofl:

is allowed priviliges in employment that others do not have it is called privilige (aka "catching breaks").

a few times a day to pump milk?

How about a diabetic who needs to take time during the day for insulin; or a kidney patient who needs to do dialysis?

Are they "priviledged" and "catching breaks", too?

to make up that time (if they don't use their legally-required lunch or breaktime). Same with a dialysis patient - when I go to the doctor's, I'm expected to take vacation time for the hours I'm gone. An insulin shot takes a few minutes at most so I don't see how that's relevant?

but then i have had single people that have needed to care for elder parents or deal with a parent that has died and been given lots of time off for mourning and other stuff. or the single employee that is having a love life crisis and does foolish things and needs time off. or the father that needs to see a softball game, or the married without children male who has a band he needs to meet up with every friday so he takes off early.

don't take advantage of it and we call it life situations that need to be taken care of. we all have them.

then i have married people and single people that show up every day and never takes time off and works late or early, whatever is needed.

it all works out in the wash

It's probably going to be 5-6 hours total out of your day three times a week. They would go through their vacation time pretty damn fast. Not to mention most dialysis patients are too fucking sick to work.

member who also has medical issues.
It's not my responsibility to work extra to make up for a co-worker. I believe people with permanent medical issues can qualify for social security.

I've long called for higher minimum wages, better labor laws, national health care, and social programs to help people who need help.

As an individual, I need to keep my priorities on my own friends and family and not be expected by an employer to make up for another employee, especially when that employer is expecting me to work beyond the hours that were agreed. Better labor laws would prohibit employers from expecting employees to stay late or work beyond 40 hours in a week.

If I choose to work extra to help our a co-worker (who is also a friend), that's fine - that's my choice. But an employer does not have the right to expect that of me, nor do other employees.

If they're taking care of their needs on their normal break times like everyone else, then no they are not priviledged.

That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

I think that's safe to say.

I didn't say if it was right or wrong that breastfeeding women take extra time at work to pump milk. I didn't say they should or shouldn't be allowed to do so.

But the fact that they DO take more break time than other workers (if that is the case) and are allowed to do so clearly means they are being given a privilege that others aren't getting.

It matters not one fucking whit if I've been a breastfeeding working mom or not. A fact is still a fact. We all have to live with the choices we make, and I get damn sick of listening to some parents whine about how special they are or how special their children are. ESPECIALLY the ones who reproduce just because they can.

to come out in force in this thread.



Go ahead and grind that axe- Whee! Enjoy!

now I'm anti-kid!!!

Still nothing of substance to add to the debate I see.

"We all have to live with the choices we make, and I get damn sick of listening to some parents whine about how special they are or how special their children are. ESPECIALLY the ones who reproduce just because they can."

..but I'm not sure what, or who, or much less how it pertains to this thread.

I stated pretty clearly who I'm angry at and why...

I get damn sick of listening to some parents whine about how special they are or how special their children are

since you quoted it back to me, I'd think you could understand that simple statement.

(the original topic of this sub-thread, last time I checked)

..how?

have chosen to not have kids.

I don't believe I said that parents are "somehow coasting along in the easy lane because the boss "lets them go to pick up the kids"..".

What I did do is ask whether parents realize how many "passes" they get in the employment world - 2 people with the same pay and job responsibilities - one a parent, one not: guess who stays late the majority of the time to finish something up?. I did not put the blame on those parents for this - I put the blame on the American employment system which expects some workers to put in over 40 hours a week.

Parents need to spend time with their kids. That goes without saying. But non-parents have the same need for time outside of work, to know that they won't be expected to work late.

(Not everyone spends a lot of time in the work-world before having kids so not everyone gets to experience working late as a non-parent before having kids).

I don't know if I would qualify having to rush off to pick up the kids as "easier". And I do know, hell, I remember how I used to sort of roll my eyes at what I thought were self-involved parents back before I had kids. Like folks who would rush out of somewhere, saying they "had to get the baby in bed by 7:30"... My wife and I would laugh- like, what's the big f'n deal? Until we had kids. Heh Heh. Ah, noooow I understand.

One nice thing about not having kids is, when you ARE out of work, your free time generally belongs to you- which is, I suspect, part of the subtext of your post- but the reality is, for most partents (at least, if they want to do a half-way decent job of it) their "free" time marginally belongs to them, at best. My advice to prospective parents would be, enjoy the ability to pick up and do whatever you want on a whim now- because it won't be like that for a while. Literally.

I get what you're saying, but perhaps if this is an issue at your work you should make more of a stink about it before it keeps rubbing you the wrong way. Peace.

for me at work - but I have seen it over and over again with many in their jobs. Even my one sister who has 2 kids has this problem because her co-workers know the kids' grandparents watch the kids during the day - and thus, people feel she doesn't "need" to leave on time to get the kids. Her director would regularly ask for meetings which could last a couple of hours starting an hour before she was supposed to leave - I believe she's addressed this problem but there are others - even other parents she works with feel their "need" to leave is greater than hers - they forget the grandparents also have a life and other plans, as does my sister.

Again - the source of the problem is the employment atmosphere that thinks it is acceptable to ask anyone to work extra hours - Americans now work the most hours of any industrialized country.

Both my mother and mother in law have Alzheimers, so believe me, although I am child free, my free time is by no means mine. Just because you do not have children does not mean you are not a caregiver in some other capacity. It's not like childfree couples sit around sipping wine in their free time.

I am not saying this maliciously, it's just the experience of one who is childfree, and considering my present situation, I am glad that I am.

...as people who have no kids, and employers know this, so we are under their thumb. We have kids depending on us, and in a paycheck-to-paycheck situation can't afford to leave when our employer is an asshole, etc.

And I can tell you, being a parent didn't stop me from being the last person in my office going home on many occasions. And the female employees with kids where I work sometimes stay pretty late, too. If parents at your work are catching breaks like that, they should count their blessings - they're unusually lucky.

when you have children depending on it, doesn't it?

why we need national health care. (A number of states have programs which guarantee kids health care - some also have programs for adults - although it's generally harder to get into the programs for adults).

And I can't speak for anyone else- but I was a single person in the workforce, once upon a time, dealing with shitty or no health coverage through my various crap jobs.

But the reality of it is, as a parent, I care WAY more that my kids be able to see a doctor than I feel that way about myself. I'm sure I'm not the only parent who feels that way.

it's no easier for a single person to seek a good job with health insurance than it is for a person with children. Many singles and child-free live paycheck to paycheck as well.

Obviously, any parent who has ever had to simultaneously worry about losing a job and with it health coverage for a potentially sick infant or kid should just defer to you, O wise one.

going to keep snarking at me?

As ye give, shall ye receive.

"it's no easier for a single person to seek a good job with health insurance than it is for a person with children. Many singles and child-free live paycheck to paycheck as well."

Clearly, the content-rich crux of the biscuit, there.

Actually, in that instance, your response indicated a lack of reading, or a lack of comprehension, regarding the previous post. The point wasn't that people without kids don't live paycheck to paycheck or fear losing their jobs. (As I mentioned upthread, most parents -believe it or not- were NOT parents at some point in their lives)

But if you honestly can't fathom why someone might be a little more worried about losing health insurance for their three year old kid than they might be worried about losing coverage for themselves...

Well, then, shit- I guess you just don't get it.

Then I suggest you stop time replying to me...

I took my vacation to be with him.

My boss came in afterwards and told me that even though I had used my approved vacation time..."I had better do something about this situation"....I was stunned...what did she want me to do??? Adopt him out???

I found a different job after that.

Many employers fire parents because they have no compassion.

Same as they fire people who are ill with chronic diseases that sometimes make it hard for them to go to work.

Additionally in all the places I have worked, I have seen people whose kids were grown and gone as well as young folks without kids...take advantage of a work situation...so to paint parents with a broad brush is foolish.

I worked with a fellow once who would basically stop working on Thursday to begin preparing for the weekend. He was in the office but he did squat for the company and spent most of the time on the phone "makin plans"...

for the statement your former boss made.

All in all, we need better labor laws which protect all workers in the US. We're paying right now in terms of society, education, health, and family life breaking down because people are expected to work ridiculously long hours - the longest in the industrialized world.

Granted, my job has a great deal of flexibility that not all working parents have. (I'm a professor.) I may leave early to pickup my kids, but I also often work 2-3 hours after they go to bed as well as early in the morning before they get up. Weekend work is a given during some periods of the year (end of semester, grant proposal due). I'm probably more efficient with my work time than my non-parenting colleagues; I have to be. No time to dawdle at the water fountain. My productivity as a faculty member is one of the highest in our department.

It isn't "easier" by a long stretch, believe me.

I agree. No one should have to work extra just because it's "expected". Our culture favors the workaholics and devalues those who want more balance in their lives. Those with balanced lives are far more healthy both physically and mentally.

Here's my solution: Carpool home. That way you can always be sure to get out on time.

"You want me to work late tonight? Let me talk to my rider and I'll get back to you."

Carpooling is beneficial for a multitude of reasons, not just this one.

I'm curious. Usually this is a "You don't understand what it means to be a parent therefore..." routine.

What's the beef? Come clean. What thread ticked you off or whatever.

I really dislike these kind of polls, I think they are a set-up to start pointless devisiveness.

I'm not you, and you aren't every parent, either. You only know what it's like for you to be a parent. It's different for everyone, just like being without children is different for everyone. Not every parent is caring or responsible. Not every "childfree" person wanted to be that way. These are all stereotypes, to a certain extent.

There are no judgments implied about people's choice not to procreate or their inability to do so. I know that there are parents who do that, but it is not my bag, and none of the other posters in this thread have done it either. When you say things like "I'm not you, and you aren't every parent, either. You only know what it's like for you to be a parent. It's different for everyone, just like being without children is different for everyone.", you pretty much make my point. Sure, there are individual nuances, but there are universal common experiences among parents (at least the majority who choose to truly care for their kids) which are the late-night feedings, the exhaustion, the changing of explosive-diarrhea diapers in a cramped mall toilet, the worry when they first ride a bike somewhere alone, and on and on and on. When you don't have kids it's different for everyone, because you have almost infinite choices suited to your individual personality as to how to live your life. When you have kids, your own whims take a permanent backseat to the needs and whims of the kids, and we are all forced into a very similar role with remarkably similar experiences. There would be very few parents who would not relate to the explosive diarrhea in a mall bathroom anecdote. But to a lot of people who never did it, it's just gross.


But no, this is not about any other thread or being ticked off. In general, I have noticed that people without kids don't quite get what it's about or what it's like, even though they think they do. But you just can't get it without doing it.

And for the zillionth time, it doesn't make us better -it's just different.

Yes, parents have experiences and feelings that really only another parent can completely understand. Although what you described is hardly beyond my emotional or mental capacity to grasp, and certainly many people can find common enough ground to empathize with the things you listed. I had an anxiety attack the first time a young cousin who I love dearly, who was a child at the time, went out on his own to the store, for example.

I could say that many people wouldn't understand certain experiences I have had in my life, or have now. They may try, but can't truly get it. And... so? I would either try to explain myself better or just chalk it up to lack of understanding, but I doubt I would start a poll asking whether they "thought" they understood my experience. Because asking such a question seems like an accusation, that they somehow shouldn't be commenting on what they don't understand or should just acknowledge their ignorance. What purpose does this serve? "even though they think they get it"? What does that mean? You don't want to hear what they have to say? Or you don't like hearing what they have to say because they don't sufficiently "understand"?

I still don't get the reason for your putting up this poll.

Good grief, does every post or poll have to have a grand agenda? It created a discussion, mostly civil, and I think both sides have made valid points, so what's the big deal? I don't really even care if the consensus is that I was wrong. It's just something I was thinking about and I posted. I'm not some paid poster or wonk working some kind of angle. It's a discussion forum and I put up my thoughts as I have them. A lot of times they are simply ignored and drop like a rock. For some reason this one touched a nerve. Beats the hell out of me why this one and not any of a dozen others.

cause i miss my kids and i got to talk about them on this thread, lol lol ;)

Being a parent is just one of those things you cannot fully understand until it happens to you. Like sex, or the death of someone close. The myriad and strength of emotions cannot be explained by words.

and can see both sides of the equation..

It's an experience that can't be had from the "outside". Really.

They think parenting is dumping the kids in front pf the tv or computer for hours on end (when actually at home).

Parenting is a huge responsibility, one that I don't think non-parents fully grasp.

I am tired of being derided as a stay at home mom by working women who say, "Oh, well I WORK". Oh really, what do you call 5 kids? Summer camp?

Yeah, I've heard that also. When I was home with three kids under the age of five, my response was, "Wow. That means you get a lunch break!"

that was the tough one, the shower. just five minutes, as fast as you could but... no visual and worst, no heqaring....

just to take a shower was such a challenge. i miss those days, lol lol

Luch break, pay, and when you clock out for the day, you are done. Kids are a 24 hour job.

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a parent. But what I do know is that it takes courage. Courage to not be a friend or pal to your child but the adult and parent. Courage to say no. Courage to stand against what all the other kids are doing and require a child to learn responsibility. And it takes courage to listen to the criticism and honestly access whether or not it applies to you as a parent.

Wise parents welcome the insight of non-parents....sometimes those who aren't so close see things a parent (who is more emotionally involved) can't see.

my youngest has always been a hard child. on occassion a mood hits and i say no. when that isnt enough i say, no... if i let you do that, it will make me a baaaaddddd parent. and i dont want to be a bad parent. there is no way i am going to be a bad parent, not even for you. (i work hard at being a good person, so the kids recognize my desire and the importance of me doing right). i have also made clear i am a mom, much more important than any friend role. that i wouldnt be that merely a friend. i have a better role and i am keepin it.

now that children are older and they are watching other kids behavior, especially the oldest, say they are glad i was so tough on them with high expectations and they don't behave that way. in ways i was waaaay tough, in others i was easier. (taylored to the child) that is what a parent does, adjusting to each child, knowing each require different.

Even with nieces and nephews I found that was the way to go. I have one nephew that I had to stay on top of and I had to use my "mean voice" with him. I didn't yell, but I would lower my voice and make it very stern.

Another nephew I found it best to use ridiculousness (is that a word?) with. I remember one time he TOLD me to get him a glass of milk. I started looking under the table and chairs and in the pantry and he asked what I was doing.....I replied, "looking for whoever you are talking to because I KNOW you don't talk to me that way." It was the last time he did.

What a hard job you parents have. I feel for you!

look at your stories and how fun they are and creative and didnt you feel good looking under the table and all and say that to that child, to only have him respect you more. it is a wonderful story. and it is a wonderful accomplishment to your own skill in interacting with another. how hard???? but how fun that is. i love your stories and you are just right on. (still missing mine, lol lol)....... i like having them around. what is hard???

on edit: i said it. hard child. that is right. well.... i only use that for discription. i know how to do him. just is not easy as pie as the oldest. everything is a big deal,.... drama.... demand.

that is funny. i was thinking hard??? i don't like or allow hard in life, if it is hard, i make shifts.

would be hard. I've had back surgery so I don't always have the patience and energy I would like. I have to say for someone who has no children I am blessed to have so many nieces and nephews to spend time with. Only thing is they are all growing up too fast!

i am a kick ass mom. i admit it, lol lol, wink. but that allows that sometimes, maybe even a lot of times i don't have the energy. i am old compared to a lot of parents. my kids and i talk about it. i don't have the energy the younger parents do, but as my son says, there are soooooo many advantages to an older parent also., sometimes i am in a bad mood. sometimes they are in a bad mood. AAALLLL that is allowed and we embrace it because... it allows all of us to be perfectly imperfect which is a wonderful lesson to the kids. it allows them to embrace their imperfections if i embrace mine.

again this isnt to talk anyone into something, i am so paranoid with what i say on this thread. but part of the job of a parent is, when i am impatient, and i am at times. my oldest talks and talks and talks....... lol lol. when that time comes that i am not.... i am not. he is also intuitive and he will say, it is ok, just not patient now. when a child is loved, and feeels and knows the love,.... we get to be humans, in all our ups and downs. and that is bottom line what a family is about. and it teaches the kids, the rest of the world. they dont live in a bubble

the reason i talk this. i was convinced myself that these feeling and imperfectionsw aren't allowed. and that just is not true

sometimes.... i have to apologize to a child. say i was wrong. then my boys will say "i forgive you". that has been one of the biggest lessons for me. something so simple. and it isnt hard. like i thought it was.

but i will tell you how special you are with relationships with nieces and nephews. parents arent enough. children need more. we use our extended family for love, and that is such a gift to the children, nothing i say to family can express to them, how important their interaction and love is with my boys. but then i give them the same with their children, wink. i see how important being an aunt is.

I guess the most important thing I offered to siblings was when I was the first to realize that two of the nephews everyone was concerned about had above average intelligence. They weren't bad kids, they were BORED! Nobody had picked up on that yet and when I told the parents what I observed they had the two boys tested. Once they got them in advanced classes the behavior improved. One of them just scored 100's on his SOL's and when he graduates HS next year will already have enough college credits to only need 3 more years of college.

...particularly in being able to relate better to what the child might be feeling.


But when a non-parent starts giving parenting advice prefaced with "Well, why don't you just...", I know there is going to be a bunch of clueless BS on the way. There is no "just..." when you're a parent. Just getting out of the house in the morning is a major operation.

He says that children completely change your life in ways you can never understand when you're single. They become the center of everything you do and why you do it, and there's no substitute for that in the non-parent world.

Many people who don't have kids look at that "center of everything" aspect as a negative. But, I've found that the all-encompassing feeling about having kids is the most amazing, profound, wonderful, meaningful experience I've ever had.

understand it. I grew up in a very large family (10 kids) so I had a lot of child raising to do as I was growing up myself. I don't have kids of my own but I understand what it's about. Depends on a person's circumstances and empathic abilities.

And I remember how judgmental I was toward parents who let their kids scream in public (crying babies). I was sure it was simply bad parenting. :rofl:

time for being single telling married and parents how it was. i got married and had kids almost the same time. i learned it is different in experience. has taught me for rest of my life i cannot understand in depth if i am not. and i was perceptive, and i read, and i tried to be fair and empathitic in understanding. i put in the time single to understnad. still not the same as experience.

i just remember it was a revelation for me in later years. helps me today

You really can't grasp how all-encompassing parenthood is until it happens. The magnitude of the love and worry and constant mental checking in (when they're a baby "is s/he waking up? ... when they're a toddler "is s/he putting something in her/his mouth? ... when they're at school "okay, they are at lunch now ... hope s/he eats what I packed" "I've gotta be at home in 20 minutes to meet the bus" ... teenagers -- I haven't gotten there yet, but I can imagine the terror of the kids being out in the world with cars driven by peers and all the drug/alcohol worries, etc.)

As someone once said, "decidng to have a child is deciding to have your heart go walking around outside your body." There's no way to understand that feeling except by experiencing it.

I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

Before I became a parent, I thought being a parent would be a long, hard and yet rewarding job. I understood the concept of unconditionally loving another person, of loving and caring so much that it can make you insane with worry and doubt. I doubted myself at times for my internal reactions toward parents who let their kids run wild at inappropriate places but now that I am a parent, I look back and realize there still is no excuse for that.

I guess the difference is that everything is magnified. The love is bigger than I expected. The fear is stronger. The challenges are more exhausting. At the end of the day though, it can be summed up as a life long exercises of love, respect, compassion and responsibility. Certainly anyone who is willing can understand that.

because her now ex-husband, their father, didn't particularly want to be bothered with them (example: She was at work one evening and called home. Husband answered and mentioned that he was eating dinner. She asked if he had fed the children too. He replied that he had not and didn't even know if they were in the house - the kids were 10 and 8 at the time and it was after 7 pm. She reamed him a new one.). But still it's nothing like having my very own kidlet, which I do now. For one thing, the worry factor is different. Sure I could be worried and concerned about my godkids, but I wasn't living with them 24-7-365, so if one of them got sick, I didn't have to deal with it except on the weekends. I didn't have to deal with a lot of the mundania either - trips to the doctor, parent-teacher meetings, that sort of thing. With having my own kidlet, I worry about her speech and development and all sorts of things - it's much more personal now. She is the child of my heart and I know I didn't understand what being a parent meant when I didn't have kids, even though I was very involved with children.

Some non-parents understand parenting better than some parents, unfortunately.

Why do you ask?

I don't ski, so I don't truly understand what it means to whoosh down a mountain. That doesn't mean I can't have opinions about it.

Before I had kids I couldn't imagine what it was like.

one and there are still many times when i think WTF am i doing? Am i doing this right? I hope so.

:shrug:

i've gone head-to-head with a childless friend (i have four sons) who seems to think that she knows more about raising children than i do. it broke up our friendship for a time, but the situation rectified itself and we are talking again. when i just want a shoulder to lean on, she seems to think i want an ANSWER. it's so frustrating. one thing tho, i NEVER discuss any problems i have with my kids with her anymore. she truly doesn't understand.

understand the love parents feel for their kids (or the heartache they endure if they outlive their children).

(This is Haele posting as Laz, BTW)

Having the hormones present during the process of giving birth or the rush when told of a pregnancy does not mean that any one person, female or male, has the comprehension of what it means to be a parent other than the fact that they had sex and conceived a child.

There are plenty of good "foster parents", single "aunties and uncles", and other volunteer surrogate parent types that are one hundred times more understanding of what it means and what it takes than any number of so-called parents that are no more than sperm or egg donors.

It has to do with the person. Not whether or not they were genetic donors.

Granted, it is much harder to deal with a kid when one becomes a parental figure later in a child's life than if one was present around birth because one is dealing with prior parenting issues, but that does not mean that a single person or an otherwise childless "step" or foster parent can't "understand" what it means to be a mom or a dad.

Haele

...Empathy is important for everyone and I think everyone should get more practice than we do in trying to put otherselves in other's places. But there are lots of things you can't understand until you've experienced them. Look at how much of the arguing in the Religion/Theology forum is between people who have had what they believe is a strong spiritual/religious experience and those who haven't. How can you truly convey or quantify that? You can't.

I have never had a strong desire to have a child--or really, much of any interest in babies or children at all--and so I've pretty much accepted I'll never know that experience (because I don't believe it's something you should do unless you do have a strong desire for it). I'm fine with that; painful as it sometimes is I have also accepted that I will probably never have the experience of winning a Grammy or looking at the earth from outer space. I have no medical training, so I will never have the experience of facing a doctor's responsibilities. I have no political background, so I will never have the experience of winning (or losing) an election for major office. Etcetera etcetera. Life is a tradeoff, and part of choosing some experiences over others is acknowledging there are parts of life you will never understand "from the inside." That's OK - it has to be OK.

excellent post. this is how i feel. i had NO desire to ever marry since i was really young. my mom would tell me "but i want it for you. i want you to be happy"

but i am happy i would say

but it is a different happy i want you to experience

i told her if i never experience and i am happy now.... then... i am happy, not knowing what i missed

that was true. but after finding a man i could be married to, i understand what she was saying too.

i would have been fine not married
i am fine married

what it was about when I was in my 20's.

ALSO, I didn't truly understand it until I was a stay-at-home dad.

But just because I have a better understanding now does not imply that I was wrong to have opinions about it when I was childless.

I hate it when parents try to make themselves into an elite.

If a person can't explain their position, they will resort to something like this when it applies. It's like saying men can't have opinions on abortion.

We all live in the world and can observe human nature. We can always try to understand someone else's experience, if they are Muslim and we are Christian and vice versa, male and female, we can get it.

And a nonparent can recognize a lousy parent when they see one.

Everyone has parents and so they have been involved personally in that dynamic anyway.

answer to this. While I never bore a child or adopted one, I was very involved with raising my niece when she was younger. I probably took care of her more off and on as she was growing up than her mother.

I certainly can say that being a parent can be a challenge, but I would also say that I've made enought decisions in respect to her life to have made a difference.

Peeps who raise pets, then have children, are better qualified than Peeps who just go to church :silly:

I didn't vote, since that option wasn't on your list, :hi:

Therefore, if you're askin', or, what is the definition of non'parent :shrug:

Its not like having a child all of a sudden gives one wisdom. I have children and Im still the same as I was when I didnt.

I knew nothing 2 and 1/2 years ago when my son was born. Now with 4 month old twins I'm in a whole new ballgame again. Its a circus. A toddler and one new born would seem so easy right now.

Now they are four, three, and two.