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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 09:38 PM
Original message
List of accusations of GIs in Iraq stuns experts

List of accusations of GIs in Iraq stuns experts

Officials point to stressed troops, greater scrutiny as possible reasons

Updated: 6:09 p.m. ET June 23, 2006

The accounts are brutal: An Iraqi man dragged from his home, executed and made to look as if he were an insurgent. Three prisoners killed by their Army captors. A team of revenge-seeking Marines going home to home, shooting down unarmed Iraqi men, women, children.

Snip...

Combat stress theory

One view is that, if proven true, these incidents reflect the toll Iraq has taken on U.S. troops. Since 2003, they have dealt with constant heat and filth, blurred lines between civilian and enemy, and insurgents who rely on dirty tactics like suicide and roadside bombs, lack of uniforms and beheadings.

“This is one of the nastier kinds of fights you could be in,” said Michael O’Hanlon, a defense analyst at the Brookings Institution. American troops “obviously lost a lot of their own compatriots, a lot of them have been there a number of times. Morale is still pretty strong, but I would think there’s a psychological toll.”

Snip...

“It’s symptomatic of a combat stress management system that has failed,” said John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-based military think tank.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13506794
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. I will tell you what is behind this
These are averages

Iraq - 250+ days of engagement per 12 month tour

Vietnam - less than 180 days (except in extreme situations) per 13 month tour

WWII, Pacific Theater - 40 days combat per 12 month tour

These guys are operating at a rate far beyond what is considered acceptable.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Pop another pill..n/t needed
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. What are you talking about? nt
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Did seem a little cryptic....I was referring to the speed given out like
candy.
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Why does everyone always forget Korea? I don't know
the stats but it always seems to be forgotten.

Where did you get the above information?

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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I would also like to know your sources; the ##s are very interesting
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. See #6 nt
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. The numbers come from
my special forces training.

I am ex (actually still am, until I am 62) Navy SEAL.

We studied endurance and probability. A lot.

The Iraq number I got from a recent article in NYTimes.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Although those Pac theater days could be very, very bad days.
It is a very interesting thing about endurance because, well, some politicians have warmed to the idea of semi-permanent professional soldiery that can be pushed and pushed and pushed. US troops have performed remarkably by the standard of not 'breaking'. But I'm sure there's more than a few cases of going snap, crackle and pop.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yes, but there is a certain physiological limit that most men..
cannot exceed.

The troops in Iraq are being pushed past all acceptable points.

The total breakdown in discipline shown by the capture of those two guys is a perfect example.
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Didn't you learn anything about Korea? 50,000 Americans
dead in 3 years in what was called a "police action".
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. We did not study Korea
Vietnam was in no way parallel.

Come to think about it, Korea was probably a subject best left alone for us at the time.

Funny, but this is the first time I have had that thought.

Dog bless DU!
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Too bad! Now you can read up on it .
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I do not give one whit about Korea.
And my Father was one of the "Chosin Few".

And my father-in-law made his first millions in the black market there (he was an Army Storekeeper).

Korea, just like Vietnam and Iraq, was a total fuckup.

Just more senseless.

One of America's darkest hours.

It just did not affect me.

Sorry
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
15.  Sure it affected you---all wars diminish us. You gave facts
about Iraq and Vietnam,also fuck ups, and you forgot Korea.

That's my only point.
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Point well taken
I apologize for seeming somewhat calloused.

This shit is fucking with me.

I was talking to a friend of mine tonight. He is an ex Ranger (Vietnam).

This stuff is causing some real trouble for some of us old guys.

Please forgive me, I did not mean to sound dismissive.

Have you seen any of the posts/articles about this recent business triggering real problems for us old soldiers? I would never have believed it. But here I am. Right here and now.

Damn.

Tom

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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. What was the rotation period during Vietnam?
In other words, what was the decompression time between deployments? I remember my college roommate, who was also a SEAl, served three tours in seven years compared to the three tours in four years we see our boys in Iraq being forced to do today. I wonder if the shorten rotation periods for Iraq could also contribute to psychological toll?
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. I said that when Haditha was discovered
Obviously, these guys saw one too many of their buddies blown up, and snapped. It's battle stress/PSTD in a nutshell. They've come to believe that every Iraqi is a potential insurgent, just like in Vietnam.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. Jacob's Ladder.
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
18. Actually it has stunned this non-expert as well.
I'm a Navy vet, now too old to be of any use for Admiral Rickover, but I honestly just can't imagine any unit behaving like that on a submarine. But then again, what we had for combat was marathon Spades tournaments and new and inventive ways of storing cigarettes so as to maximize one's own personal non-tobacco storage.
I guess I am so used to having very senior NCOs and commissioned officers working alongside me that I just can't imagine the military out of control. It has to be a lack of supervision. I note that the death rate seems to be centered among the lowest pay rates. That has a lot to do with IEDs I'm sure, but where are those E-5s, 6s and 7s and the O-1s and 2 that should be right beside them?
I just don't understand it, so help me I don't. But if I were now in the military I would be walking around the engineering spaces and preparing that week's lecture on else sitting in the maneuvering room, so I'm no expert on combat.
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4bucksagallon Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. IED
is just another name for a booby trap. Same thing vietnam grunts faced on a daily basis. Why does it surprise anyone that even trained soldiers (kids really) could loose it. Don't forget that a lot of what went on in vietnam was squad level or below, many were sent or volunteered for killer teams, Lp's Op's and ambushes of 3 and 4 men. Kerry was right when he said that a lot of what went on in vietnam was reminicent of Ghengis Khan. It's just that a lot of vets would not like to talk about what they have been through. That's my thought on the subject.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-24-06 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
20. "Combat Stress" is always greatest in an unjust war.
Despite their "Kill, kill, kill!" training, most recruits remain human. Wars of aggression may seem justified for some of the grunts some of the time, but when otherwise decent kids are forced into the role of Gestapo they will become dehumanized and commit atrocities without remorse, or they will suffer PTSD -- or both, since they are two sides of the same reality. More victims, more suffering.
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