Can I say something about "cut and run" ??

You see, we were lied into this war. It was a war of choice - not of necessity. At first, it wasn't about creating democracy in that part of the world. It was about finding WMDs and nuclear materials from Niger. This war has changed faces more times than a Hollywood prostitute. We have now lost 2500 troops and over 18,000 wounded - some so serious they will never walk or talk again. I hope you can look yourself in the mirror and say it was worth it? We are now almost $9 trillion dollar in debt and we are spending over $2 billion per week in Iraq? Surely there is nothing we could spend that money on here in our own country? That's what I think about "cut and run"...

situation and the evidence, evaluating the costs and benefits of your actions, and making a new decisions based on that information. It's called rational thinking. Something in short supply these days in our gubmint.

not a war. The war is over after we took out Saddam. Therefore there is no "cut and Run".

I didn't talk about "cut and run". Change the subject and hit 'em back. :)

not trying to come up with a better response than "cut and run". Forget cut and run. Tell the truth about how disastrous this Administration has been Go on the offense. Don't continue to play defense. You are only playing their game.

Why can't we embrace "Cut and Run"? Most Americans want out of Iraq. Can't we give the voters what they want?

Although most Americans may want us out of Iraq - they do not favor "cutting and running". It's how it is framed. "Cut and run" has a negative connotation that most Americans will not support. Much like most Americans will not support a "flip-flopper". It's a term that indicates "weakness". In fact, it is better to be a bald-faced liar, than a "flip-flopper". One is strong and one is weak, although the bald-faced liar may in truth be much worse...

So why can't the Democratic Party do the right thing--pull out and call victory!

edit to add: We never started the Cut and Run meme. They did. We should have embraced it long ago. If we say Now is the time to cut and run--it would be a flip-flop. Blame the polls, shrug. Just do the right ting!

not on the terms defined by the Repubs. Cutting and running like scared puppies with their tails between their legs, whimpering home when the going gets tough...etc... So we do not wish to be defined that way...

The voters want out.

Same as letting Rush lie about DEMs and not be challenged by truth.

We do not gain anything by letting Rove set the language of the debate. Period.

We don't move unless we carry the ball (issue, sans GOP chosen rhetoric) forward.

Stop letting Rover play referee. He is also not the commissioner of the league. He does NOT make the rules, so stop acting like he does!

Force them off their game plan:

Pull their talking points out from under them by focusing the debate on REAL ISSUES instead of responding to their sound-bite-memes.

CONSTANTLY point out which party has been in charge while all these horrible policies and decisions were made

Keep the play INBOUNDS: When they try to run around us (re-frame debate, redefine us) take the ball (issue) back and keep moving it forward. In other words, if they try to Swift-Boat anybody, send in some weight and TAKE 'EM DOWN!

Besides the loss of 2500 young American lives and the thousands wounded, the Iraqui casualties must be counted in this disgusting war Bush and his buddies started. It bothers me that I rarely hear the American media acknowledge the Iraqi casualties and it is sad that the American people may be blamed by the Iraqis and other Muslims for the mess.

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to uphold the CONSTITUTION....

Instead, they have helped install a DESPOT..an Emporor...a run a way dufus who poses as a Leader.

Bush and his Crew are fighting a battle which needs to be won...they are using the wrong tatics....thats Iraq.

But here at HOME, the Bush/Republicans have forgotten/overlooked/ignored the premise of whats best for the People...

Instead they fight for whats best for THEM...its that simple...

GOP is anti People....

The Democrats are not yet articulating an antiwar position that will clearly distinguish them as the opposition party polls show Americans want.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060710/editors

articulating an antiwar position that clearly distinguished them as the opposition party polls show Americans want.


you will not see it on the corporate controlled media. You have to look to see the truth.
Let he who has eyes see.

Did the Democratic Party have one united plan to get out of Iraq--NOW!?

What would it matter if the dems. had one or two plans? Why is it bad to have plans and alternatives?

The Repubs have no plan. Stay the course and continue doing what you are doing is not a "plan". Either of the Democratic plans is superior to "no plan".

:thumbsdown:

:shrug:

CUT TAXES
RUN UP THE DEBT

CUT TAXES
RUN UP THE DEPT!!!

short and to the point. Keep it simple

Middle America is in favor of tax cuts and don't care about debt. Sad but true.

Our job is to make sure they keep furthering their education on that point too.

More accurate than cut and run, certainly.

I always enjoy reading Kentuck's rants. There is always a lot of good common sense in his rants.

Democrats MUST learn how to keep it SHORT. The answer to cut and run is:

Stay the Off Course

:argh:

. . .but one thing we must stop doing is arguing directly against their labels.

When we deny their accusations, no matter how logically or well we think we can do it, we are on their turf, squarely in "Don't think of an elephant" territory ("Don't think we are cutting and running").

When we have labels of our own to go after them with, it is a lot easier to stay off their turf.

For example, when we respond with something like

The Republicans are apparently determined to



we aren't denying their accusation, we are going on the attack in a way that keeps us out of a "Cutting and running or not?" argument. "Stay the Off Course" is a salvo that takes it back to our turf, where we can talk about:

• How horribly far "off course" they have taken the nation;


• How "holding firm" to lunacy is lunacy;


• How deploying American military power as an occupying force has been disastrous. How it is long past time to change course and defuse the situation by becoming in reality what we say we are -- not an occupying force, but rather, a powerful ally with sufficient military muscle deployed in close proximity to deter aggression and support critical air or ground operations.

Because it is a defensive response to the initial charge of "cut and run". I think the better strategy is to attack them with our own points, similar to the ones in the original post, without mentioning "cut and run". I think that would be more effective and smarter.

I say we tell them that we should just do what's right for this country, and not worry about saving face and being all macho and everything. I'm sorry about the way we fucked up Iraq, and it would be nice to fix it, but we just can't afford it any more, both in terms of lives and money.

Labels and phrases that capture core truths are incredibly powerful.

Nothing to fear but fear itself

Ask not what you can do for your country. . .

"So's your old man" may or may not capture a core truth, but it certainly has little power.

"Stay the off course" may not be the best, but it describes what they are doing. It says, "They have been going in the wrong direction and are asserting that we must keep going in the wrong direction", but it says it with a lot fewer words.

Someone should remind Bush that this is not the Alamo and he doesn't have to fight to the last man.

. . .in a stable Iraq would compel them to step in if the facscist Bush admin would just get the heck out of the way -- providing support, giving up it's white knuckle attempts to control everything.

Point lists are incapable of spreading like wildfire.

A label or phrase that embodies those points does.

Your lists of points may get through to "knowledge people" but there are an awful lot of "belief people" out there.

Belief People v. Knowledge People:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2681291&mesg_id=2681323

They make us look weak. We need true aggressive opposition.

. . .deny or defend against their accusations and labels.

But, labels and catch phrases are effective communication tools.

When we respond by denying or arguing THEIR bogus accusations, we do them a service, because we are actually reinforcing the accusation in people's minds. When we go after them with accusations/labels/slogans of our own, in a sense we are responding, but we're not doing it in a way that reinforces their crap. We are moving the game to our turf, and dragging them with us.

To be effective, our labels/slogans must not only capture core truths, they must not be denials of their labels/slogans.

For example, after the 2005 election theft, "No Mandate" started showing up on bumper stickers and signs.

"No Mandate" is a classic "Don't think of an elephant" denial. Even people who never heard Bush's claim to a "mandate" get the notion that Bush could have a mandate planted in their heads when they see "No Mandate."

The way to effectively counter the "Bush Mandate" notion is to label the election a STOLEN ELECTION or to call Bush an ELECTION THIEF.

When we accuse, and they deny, they are doing us a favor. Every time they deny the election was stolen, they are actually giving the idea legs.

excellent!

the Republicans can use it to insinuate the Democrats are unmanly. It's the same old wimp strategy. When a Republician says "Democrat X wants to cut n' run" with a nod and a wink he is telling the American people Democrat X has no balls (or ovaries). And is therefore unfit to lead due to his non-alphamaleness.

And it always works because politicans are not concerned (for the most part) with doing that which is correct, but with doing that which (in their opinion) gives them the best chance for re-election.

If politicans were worried about defending the constitution and protecting their employers they would immediately call for impeachment, vote to remove us from Iraq, slash the DoD budget, pull our forces out of the hundreds of overseas bases, stop funding bloated projects which make them look electable...

But, the US government has NEVER been about defending people...

Unfortunately, I have a week long business trip to get ready for today, and can't dedicate the time to write the 4 or 5 pages I have stewing in my head about it.

Let's just suffice to say that catch-phrase politics is all the rage with the neo-cons. If you can't fit it on the front of a t-shirt, or a bumperstcker it will unfortunately get ignored. The problem is, that it works. Science, critical thinking, and the study of any type of real historical perspective is being slowly phased out of our school systems, and replaced with little more than "training" to be a faceless cog in the massively bloated corporate machine that has seized control of our country.

It's a sad statement about our educational system, and a statement as to the WHY the neo-cons are trying to screw up our educational system. Uneducated people that don't read, and don't look at history are easy to manipulate in this sort of a manner.

Rest assured, that's going to be a long post I am going to make very soon though...